satan - the devil.

starbird · January 21, 2007

believing that satan exists does not mean accepting the idea that he has horns, a pointed tail, and a pitchfork and that he roasts people in a firery hell. the bible gives no such description of satan.

that is the product of the minds of medieval artists who were influenced by representations of the

mythological greek god pan.

instead of teaching a firey hell, the bible clearly states that

"the dead are conscious of nothing at all" {eccl.9:5}

so where did he come from?

all gods works are perfect; he is not the author of un-righteousness; so he did not create anyone

wicked. {deut.32:4; ps. 5:4}

the one who became satan was originally a perfect spirit son of god. when saying that the devil

"did not stand fast in the truth," jesus indicated that at one time that one was "in the truth" {john 8:44}

but as is true of all gods intelligent creatures, this spirit son was endowed with free will.

he abused his freedom of choice, allowed feelings of self importance to develop in his heart,

began to crave the worship that belonged only to god, and so enticed adam and eve to listen to

him rather than obey god. thus by his course of action he made himself satan, which means

"adversary".

"and a war broke out in heaven: michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but did not prevail, niether was a place found for them any longer in heaven.

so down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent the one called devil and satan

who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth and his angels were hurled down with him. and i heard a loud voice in heaven say:

now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our god and the authority of his christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night

before our god.{revelation.12:7-10}

"woe for the earth and for the sea because the devil has come down to you having great anger,

knowing he has a short period of time" {rev.12:12}

starbird x x x

Belle · January 21, 2007

Some people believe that the devil came from political and religious leaders in order to control the masses.

starbird · January 21, 2007

the bible clearly states where he came from..

but i do believe he's in charge of those religious and political leaders.

when you think about it from his point of view, what better place for him to be.

there he can do his worst, you only have to look at todays political and religious

system to see whats happening.

more than ever its in turmoil. and i bet he's lovin it..

love starbird x x x

Belle · January 21, 2007

So, is the Bible and your interpretation of it your only source of refrence?

starbird · January 21, 2007

afraid so belle. it explains everything about satan.

but please dont think i'm being oughty about it.

without the bible who'd know about satan.. with whats happening today.

to me its as plain as the nose on your face. because i believe in the bible, thats what i go by.

i dont go by mans theories.

starbird x x x

Tom Strange · January 21, 2007

thus by his course of action he made himself satan, which means "adversary"

my translation reads "boogie-man"...

Free Soul · January 22, 2007

I totally get the biblical story about how Lucifer became "the devil". But, it's not like this happened & God said, "Oh crap, wish I'd seen that coming".

starbird · January 22, 2007

:lol: starbird x x x

socks · January 22, 2007

I thought the devil was in the details...? :biglaugh:

Hi starbird. Welcome - on one of your threads you mentioned you aren't a present or former member of the Way. How did you come to GS, if you don't mind me asking? Just curious.

A few thoughts I have - When I think of Satan I think of "Lucifer", Latin, "light bearer" and at one time referring to the plant Venus, as the "morning star". Where Christ is/will be the "bright morning star" and the "Prince of Peace", Lucifer/Satan is considered the "Prince of Darkness" and an angel fallen/cast out and down from his original spot in heaven.

"Satan" in Hebrew means accuser or opposer, and "Devil" means slanderer or accuser.

One way God is described in the bible is that He is light, one that has no "variableness" or shadow that comes from turning or changing position. God is constant, consistent, seemingly by nature which is reflected in what He does.

And it would seem that God has both free "will" and makes choices, decisions and takes action based on His nature. That is reflected in what He does, creates, etc. to varying degrees, it seems.

Angels, like Lucifer, sound like they have free will and the ability to choose and act on their choices. Mankind does too. Where God's will directly produces results, it seems as though - man's will produces choices, actions, based on the the choices that are available to us. There's a range of "power", cause and effect that's much more limited to man and it seems Lucifer, an angel. In a way I might picture it as - God wills and creates a "heaven and earth". Man wills and decides to build a set of shelves. We know what it might take to build the shelves or can find out, it's a tad more difficult to understand what and how God's will and choices are accomplished, but the way the bible describes things there is a higher purpose and process at work, one that is pretty much out of our grasp.

Angels like Lucifer seem to have purposes and processes too, and they're difficult to undestand as well. If Satan is a "spirit" being, we don't really know how all of that works, although the bible describes it in places and we get pieces of what he does, is doing, will do, etc.

It's difficult to get a personality profile on Lucifer from the bible I think, but the way he's described makes him sound like he exercises his will and chooses to run at cross purposes to God. Sort of like a fly in the ointment. A very big fly. He challenges authority, offers alternatives to God's known purposes, accuses mankind of they're wrong choices and failings, and generally is Mr. Dark Cloud without much of anything constructive or supportive to offer to any effort to pursue a straight and true course of action with God.

Knowing that we can choose "right" or "wrong" Satan offers the "wrong" choice, the "other way" to man.

Yet man is able to exercise his own will and construct his world and life the way he/she determines too. So within the scope of our lives here we can build the kind of world we want. We can produce good, or bad. The bad exists independent of Lucifer/Satan/the Devil. He's actively promoting an "ungodly" choice. If we choose against God we have a ready accomplice in Satan. Yet, he is one who offers no support really - by his own choice he doesn't appear to want to do anymore than create havoc.

I can see that Lucifer had been, can be and is a very strong influence on mankind, but not an overwhelming one. Man has the ability to exercise his own conscience, his ability to know instinctively and through accumulated experience what can be right or wrong choice in much of life. Man, with Christ, has the upper hand.

If mankind pursues selfish greed-based goals for instance, he cuts out that possiblity of seeing a greater good and wants only what's good for himself. Pride, greed, selfishness, fear, that's the "dark side" as Yoda would say. A person would reject a God who suggests that we live to love Him, and one another. Instead of helping others to have a good life, we might steal from them, take what they already have. "Thou shalt not steal". Ha! Not if I want what you have.

In many ways I feel that mankind therefore has the ability to make a good world and a good life for themselves and others, by choice. We're tempted to do otherwise all the time, and that temptation is promoted by Lucifer who prefers to do otherwise himself. His negative influence and presence can't be totally contained - for now - but it can be controlled.

Edited January 22, 2007 by socks

year2027 · January 22, 2007

God first

Beloved starbird and others

God loves you my dear friend

welcome I hope I do not share to many things I just feel the need to write to this tread

you wrote

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

believing that satan exists does not mean accepting the idea that he has horns, a pointed tail,

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

what if I said satan had horns and did not have horns or I said satan had a tail and did not have a tail

yes it reads in {Eccl.9:5} KJV 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

but I may forget things that VPW taught "the dead are conscious of nothing at all"

so in the grave they have or had no understanding while dead but when does this change for them

the first coming of Jesus Christ is the day they were looking for while we look for the second coming

the memory of them is forgotten to their bodies but not to God who will have the son re-created them as some saw the dead rise

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

you asked

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

so where did he come from?

all gods works are perfect; he is not the author of un-righteousness; so he did not create anyone

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess you asked were Satan came from

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

this great whales here is talking about a soul life animal great compare to other soul animals -- angels

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

some animals fly in the open firmament of heaven -- yes the open firmament of heaven and not above the earth

while birds fly above the ground they do not fly in the open firmament of heaven so it may be talking about angels

Yes God created everything just right but he gave all things free will

the one who became satan was a animal of flesh

yes there was a time before the devil sined as there was a time before Adam sined

yes Rev 12:7 "and a war broke out in heaven: michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but did not prevail, niether was a place found for them any longer in heaven. - this = Gen 3

so you see there a lot to think about when asking about Satan

Is he spirit or flesh -- I say he is flesh image

if there no memory in the grave were is it stored -- in the holy spirit that over shower the old testament people

were they raised at the first coming of Christ -- I say yes

if we be alive in Christ and Christ has come down to us as the gift of holy spirit is this not a second coming of Christ

so I say Satan is a angel to us the one who tempted mankind to live by flesh beginning the battle between flesh and spirit

when is the last trump - I say our last breath is our last fleshly sound which can be called a trump that day we changed or we are born from flesh to spirit kind or Godkind

today we walk around with the seed of Christ in our heart until we break out of the flesh

to die with Christ is to die fleshly to be born spiritually

I have a question do you walk by the word of God or by the limited book called the bible

guess what the bible is only part of the word of God

In the Way I was taught that words of propecy has to line up with the bible but today I believe if live prophecy does not seem to line up with the bible

either I have a poor translation or words are missleading me or I need to find a clearer verse because by the spirit one can not lie but a translation can be poorely transated or that could be more that I can understand at any given time

so I do alot of praying on things

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

Edited January 22, 2007 by year2027

starbird · January 22, 2007

i know where he came from.

satan was not created in flesh please tell where it says that in the bible

satan was a spirit person in heaven

"flesh and blood cannot enter into heaven"

the bible is the word of god.

starbird x x x

JumpinJive · January 22, 2007

Anybody else ever wonder why God would allow a lying, malicious, invisible and incredibly powerful being to wreak havoc on his creation? You could get stoned to death in the OT for gathering sticks on the wrong day but this creature is allowed to live and continue his murderous ways without repercussion.

-JJ

starbird · January 22, 2007

I totally get the biblical story about how Lucifer became "the devil". But, it's not like this happened & God said, "Oh crap, wish I'd seen that coming".

can you please tell me where in the bible that it mentions the name lucifer.

love starbird x x x

Sushi · January 23, 2007

Here's part of the entry for Lucifer in Wikipedia. Do with it what you will.

In the Vulgate, an early-5th-century translation of the Bible into Latin by Jerome, Lucifer occurs in Isaiah 14:12-14 as a translation of the Greek word heosphorus ("dawn-bearer"), an epithet of Venus. The original Hebrew text of this verse was הילל בן שחר (heilel ben-schahar), meaning "Helel son of Shahar." Helel was a Babylonian / Canaanite god who was the son of another Babylonian / Canaanite god named Shahar.

Hope this helps.

starbird · January 23, 2007

Here's part of the entry for Lucifer in Wikipedia. Do with it what you will.
In the Vulgate, an early-5th-century translation of the Bible into Latin by Jerome, Lucifer occurs in Isaiah 14:12-14 as a translation of the Greek word heosphorus ("dawn-bearer"), an epithet of Venus. The original Hebrew text of this verse was הילל בן שחר (heilel ben-schahar), meaning "Helel son of Shahar." Helel was a Babylonian / Canaanite god who was the son of another Babylonian / Canaanite god named Shahar.

Hope this helps.

thanks for looking this up.

starbird x x x

year2027 · January 23, 2007

God first

Beloved starbird

God loves you my dear friend

I guess you are talking to be

While I do not want to fight about it but I just wanted to point out a few things

1. Its not were in a set of books called the bible but were in the word of God

2. were do you say he came from

3. were does the bible say the devil was not created as flesh or any other part of the bible

4. were does it say satan was even a person whether spirit or flesh

yes "flesh and blood cannot enter into heaven" but which heaven

while we go into outer space which is in the heaven just not the part spirit is in

while the bible is the word of God its not all the word of God because there is more

I told you were the devil was created

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

the word great is in Strong's Dictory H1419. gadowl, gaw-dole'; or (short.) gadol, gaw-dole'; from H1431; great (in any sense); hence older; also insolent:-- + aloud, elder (-est), + exceeding (-ly), + far, (man of) great (man, matter, thing, -er, -ness), high, long, loud, mighty, more, much, noble, proud thing, X sore, (X) very.

so this great whales were mighty than other animals, more noble than other animals and higher than other animals

now the word whales in Strong's Dictory H8577. tanniyn, tan-neen'; or tanniym (Ezek. 29 : 3), tan-neem'; intens. from the same as H8565; a marine or land monster, i.e. sea-serpent or jackal:--dragon, sea-monster, serpent, whale.

so these animals are land monsters, sea-serpents, dragons and other things

Exo 7:9 When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Show a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent.

this word serpert is the same animal in Gen 1:21

Deu 22:33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.