Someone I know is fond of telling my kids that they are (or at least used to be) considered nothing more than property in the eyes of the law. This has always ticked me off.
As loving parents we need to parent. In my mind that means setting boundaries, providing love, nurture and whatever it takes to help them become responsible, healthy, adults.
I try to find ways to honor my kids' sense of self. I allow them to vent. I tell them that I'm not their friend - but their MOM. My goal is that when they are adults we will be friends.
So - for the first 10 or so years of their life I was a benevolent tyrant. Now until they are abut 18 I will be more like a coach - giving "plays" and allowing them to go out and put them into action. This allows them to make decisions on the fly and to use their common sense. We talk a lot. I mean A LOT. I know their friends and some of them are starting to call me "Mom."
Because of the beatings I saw perpetrated on children who were not the children of those doing the beating, I chose to refuse permission to any school to touch my children. That is a legal option...and it was a legal option in every state I ever lived in (about 12 all together).
Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, will EVER lay a hand on my children again and get away with it.
I agree with Belle, spanking doesn't twist anyone, really. A beating might, but spanking, no. Once, I was trying to escape a spanking my my father, and I was near the second floor stairway, saw my mother at the bottom of the stairway, so I threw myself backward down the stairs. I lay at the bottom, a little bruised but unhurt, but pretending to be passed out. I thought my mother would yell at my Dad, and she did.
"Eddie! Get down here and discipline your child! He threw himself down the stairs!"
Both my parents got their turn spanking me that night. I was also grounded from watching "Lost in Space."
I'm really glad that there are people who were spanked and who turned out fine. There are people who smoked since they were teenagers, Milton Berle and George Burns for example, who lived to be in their 90's, and even 100. But I don't think anyone would say that smoking is good for longevity, and should be encourgaed by our teenagers.
Some children who are spanked are more resilient than others. Some children who are spanked have better circumstances than others. Is it possible that you turned out well in spite of and not because of spankings?
No matter how you hit, the intent of a spanking is pain. I don't feel violence has any place in the raising up of a child. I'd opt for respectful guidence if I could start over.
Oh how I understand your position dear Excie! Been there, done that, got the tee shirt!
Just remember when you get those moments - something my mother-in-law taught me, and I know from experience it't true.
"Grandchildren are God's give to those who didn't strangle their kids when they were teenagers."
Furthermore, I can attest to the fact that Grandchildren are one of this life's greatest treassure. Don't miss out on yours (down the road a fur piece - I know)
this is not directed at anyone in particular, just those who 'know that they know that they know'.
I was at my ex mother in law's house one day. I was being a little testy. Not call the cops testy, but testy nonetheless. I forget what it was about, other than I was ABSOLUTELY sure about something (kind of like being 'way brained') about something. She finally turned to me and said, "Have you ever been so sure about something and been WRONG?" This came like a lightning bolt out of the blue. Needless to say, this cooled my jets for the rest of the day.
My point is, I don't know what, if anything, you can be absolutely sure of in this world. Other than knowing The Chicago Cubs aren't going to be in the World Series anytime soon (buuut, The Boston Red Sox made it, leading me to 'believe', there's hope for the Cubs).
Yet another point. I suppose the decision to be made is, would you rather be right or happy?
Both my parents got their turn spanking me that night. I was also grounded from watching "Lost in Space."
"Oh, the pain, the pain!"
------------------------------------------
I guess I'm just extremely fortunate in that my kid, Bodhi Armour, never needed a whole lot of disciplining. She's just one of those kids whose disposition tends toward affable, good natured and go-along-to-get-along. She's her own person, and somehow learned not to let people pressure her to violate her own sense of right and wrong.
I think it also helped that her mom and I have a sense of life and humor that dwells firmly in the Land of Odd near the Border of Bizarre. We laughed more than we screamed, and I think that rubbed off on her.
I've only ever spanked her once (her mom has never spanked her) - I don't even remember what it was for. Just a light, quick smack on the butt.
And I felt like such a completely inhuman s--t for hurting this sweet, good-natured kid. I've never done it since. Never needed to.
I'm not sure if this contributes to the arguments for or against spanking. I certainly got my share when I was a kid, but that was different times and a completely different living situation.
I just feel like it's an option of last resort. IMHO.
This is most certainly a tough subject but I think that the option to spank (which I define as a light tap, not a beating) should not be taken away from the parent. It allows control inside our homes that is no one business but the parent and the child. Now of course abuse is entirely different and anyone that knows me on this forum knows I am intimate with every form of abuse there is so I certainly am not condoning it and I would assume that would be realized.
It's just the taking over our free will that makes my head hot.
i am by no strech of the immagination a violent person but if i was in that guys shoes, and she wouldn't leave MY house she would have been physically escorted out with a kick on the bum
MY kid MY house get out grandma
MY life too .something like this happened to me but ,opposite
we were at a family gathering.
one of my sons then about 3 or 4 was at the waters edge of the lake
i and others were watching him for safty reasons of course
the lake was very shallow and the kid was just playinfg on the shore
he had my permission
then
out of the blue his step grand father went up to him and literally grabed the boys ear lobe and carried him away from the beach
i went up to the old basta333d and told him if he ever touched my son again i would make live miserable for the old fart
i also told the ole pr11k that if we were not at this family gathering he would be lying on his back looking up
I and I only had the right to disaplin my kids un less you had my permission to do so
and permission was granted many times
and yes i did spank and they all turned out to be responsible adults .
I just noted your definition. "A light tap...." to me that is just "getting attention". My definition of spanking would be:
"a series of taps or swats, light or otherwise, given as punishment for a perceived wrong behavior or to discourage future wrong behavior". If all we had been talking about these 4 pages was "a light tap", I doubt I would have had much of an opinion. However, some have expressed support for using everything from hands to belts to spoons to switches. Some have expressed their idea that it is a GOOD thing to instill fear of pain from anyone in authority to guide a child's behavior. These attitudes is what I dispute. A single "light tap" is not painful, and:
I hope nobody thinks I was making an issue of a "light tap".
IMO, slapping a young hand AS they reach towards a hot stove or lawnmower or other potentially dangerous activity, is far different from taking the child aside and deliberately with intent, instilling pain on them in hopes of teaching them to not repeat an activity like running around a store or saying some word or not cleaning their room, or getting into a fight, "talking back" or whatever the case may be.
Sushi- within the definition I used for spanking, I am HAPPY to believe I am "SO RIGHT", but I will not beat you over the head with it. :P
I contend that the concept of "might makes right" is outdated, and probably was never correct in parenting (or international affairs), no matter if the long term result was not physically or mentally damaging to anyone in a particular case. We should not inhibit ourselves from expressing our belief that we are right, we should also never be so closed-minded to other views that we fail to learn from others. I have listened, I have learned, but as yet have seen nothing presented in the way of anything other than anecdotal evidence to demonstrate that spanking and slapping were the beneficial determining factors in the life of a child.
In any particular anecdotal situation, perhaps spanking or slapping can not be proven to cause long term mental or physical harm. Did it help, or would a less CONVENIENT discipline technique have been at least equally and perhaps more successful? I think parents should consider this.
All I hoped for in this discussion is that parents consider what they are doing, and not pick the convenience of spanking and slapping if it in any way could be damaging to a child physically or mentally. My children are long out of the house, it will never be a choice I personally need to make again. When (if) a grandparent I become, I hope I have the patience to deal with matters in a steady and considerate way, as I tried so carefully to do with my own children. I did not and do not take parenting lightly. I only had hoped to share my views, my experiences, and some of what I have learned through years of formal and informal thought on this very subject.
~HAP
It's just the taking over our free will that makes my head hot.
If everyone's free will was as willfully considered as yours, this likely would not have been a 4 page thread, and legislation would likely not have been considered to perhaps be needed.
Well poop on a stick! I swear that light tap was downright PC of me! Barf me out the door on that one Hap.
I agree with your post so won't bother to repeat it, ain't I taking the lazy way out on that one. <_<
And if I could trust the folks making decisions for my life it would be an entirely different thing than what we have in real life. We know it isn't to our best interest that many decisions are made by those above us. And the PC folks are downright dangerous in office, just downright dangerous.
Man Zaps Wife's Grandmother With Taser in Dispute Over Spanking
grandma wouldn't be welcome in my house after that. if she had legit concerns, then don't just threaten to call, make the call. while he shouldn't have tazered her (she wasn't a threat) I agree that escorting her out, bodily if necessary, sounds like a good idea. that, or have the cops do it.
Well poop on a stick! I swear that light tap was downright PC of me! Barf me out the door on that one Hap.
I agree with your post so won't bother to repeat it, ain't I taking the lazy way out on that one. <_<
And if I could trust the folks making decisions for my life it would be an entirely different thing than what we have in real life. We know it isn't to our best interest that many decisions are made by those above us. And the PC folks are downright dangerous in office, just downright dangerous.
Only in a case where there is no government at all are decisions not made by others concerning our life. I do not know oif such a place. The best we can hope for in most cases is that the decisions a government makes over our lives are ones we can reasonably live with.
I am not certain that "WE" know the PC folks are downright dangerous. You might know this, but I reserve the right to disagree, pending further analysis. Unless by PC you refer to the flack between Windows based computers and the Apple O.S., and then I might have to agree with you afterall, mostly but not in every case, sometimes, in some applications. Clear as mud?
HAP <======marks 01/27/2007 as the day Kathy agreed with one of my posts.
However, some have expressed support for using everything from hands to belts to spoons to switches. Some have expressed their idea that it is a GOOD thing to instill fear of pain from anyone in authority to guide a child's behavior.
NEVER EVER EVER
i guess we've been talking about different things here
my misunderstanding
sorry, and no cath, i was not referring to you....
i was just saying i get confused at times as i'm trying so hard to be the best kind of parent possible
and was it you who said stuff about center of the universe ? my pediatrician told me in no uncertain terms to STOP making my son the center of the universe because i was doing him a great disservice (for when he would experience the "real universe). this was when he was 3. and god i've been trying so hard these 9+ years....
Only in a case where there is no government at all are decisions not made by others concerning our life. I do not know oif such a place. The best we can hope for in most cases is that the decisions a government makes over our lives are ones we can reasonably live with.
I am not certain that "WE" know the PC folks are downright dangerous. You might know this, but I reserve the right to disagree, pending further analysis. Unless by PC you refer to the flack between Windows based computers and the Apple O.S., and then I might have to agree with you afterall, mostly but not in every case, sometimes, in some applications. Clear as mud?
HAP <======marks 01/27/2007 as the day Kathy agreed with one of my posts.
What concerns me about the PC thinking I'm referring to is not having the balls to just flat out say NO you cannot keep taking from us and not giving in return NO you cannot expect me to give you more than we are giving our legal citizens right now.
If we really are the richest nation in the world (questionable as each day passes) that seems to tell the world we are there to support them. Why? Why are we there to support the rest of the world? Why are we bound to that?
PC people that I am referring to think nothing of giving us away lest we not appear humanitarian. And they do it at the cost of the ones paying their wages. It is okay to say NO we will not support you No we will not be the first to jump in and lend a hand NO we will not be the first to protect you from your own insane leaders. I do not agree with policing the world. I do not agree with fixing the world. I do not agree with imposing our democracy on the world. Obviously I do not agree with GWB then.
I fall back to being too nice with people, I don't want to hurt their feelings, I don't want to add to their suffering already. Then guess what happens to me, I have given away myself when I didn't have me to give in the first place. I have laid on my back and taken it because I thought I had to give. Bullcrap! I don't have to give a dang thing that I don't want to give. And I don't want some feel good PC politician giving me away either.
And I really do agree with you Hap so you keep that day marked dear man. You are a good guy!
sorry, and no cath, i was not referring to you....
i was just saying i get confused at times as i'm trying so hard to be the best kind of parent possible
and was it you who said stuff about center of the universe ? my pediatrician told me in no uncertain terms to STOP making my son the center of the universe because i was doing him a great disservice (for when he would experience the "real universe). this was when he was 3. and god i've been trying so hard these 9+ years....
excie,
You'll not find me in the line to tell you that you erred in raising your son. I have an idea why he was so important to you and why you would fight to protect and love and offer him a life you didn't have.
I have an acquaintance who I am helping thru a class right now. She makes it very hard on me because she can't meet with me when it's convenient with me because her daughter has to take her nap at a certain time and she has to go to bed after being read to and given a snack at a certain time. I want to tell this mother she is setting her daughter up for a terrible fall but I don't know this mother that well and haven't felt I had the access to without it hurting the bigger need, the assistance she needs right now. She is the example of making that little toddler more important than her own growth and I can see it is making a huge wedge between her and her husband. All three of them are going to suffer.
You want better for your son than you had for yourself. That is not the same excie, not to me anyway dear.
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doojable
Just to clarify...
Someone I know is fond of telling my kids that they are (or at least used to be) considered nothing more than property in the eyes of the law. This has always ticked me off.
As loving parents we need to parent. In my mind that means setting boundaries, providing love, nurture and whatever it takes to help them become responsible, healthy, adults.
I try to find ways to honor my kids' sense of self. I allow them to vent. I tell them that I'm not their friend - but their MOM. My goal is that when they are adults we will be friends.
So - for the first 10 or so years of their life I was a benevolent tyrant. Now until they are abut 18 I will be more like a coach - giving "plays" and allowing them to go out and put them into action. This allows them to make decisions on the fly and to use their common sense. We talk a lot. I mean A LOT. I know their friends and some of them are starting to call me "Mom."
Ok - not trying to toot my own horn here...
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CoolWaters
Because of the beatings I saw perpetrated on children who were not the children of those doing the beating, I chose to refuse permission to any school to touch my children. That is a legal option...and it was a legal option in every state I ever lived in (about 12 all together).
Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, will EVER lay a hand on my children again and get away with it.
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Eagle
Thanks, Rocky! Maybe I'm NOT normal! HA!
I agree with Belle, spanking doesn't twist anyone, really. A beating might, but spanking, no. Once, I was trying to escape a spanking my my father, and I was near the second floor stairway, saw my mother at the bottom of the stairway, so I threw myself backward down the stairs. I lay at the bottom, a little bruised but unhurt, but pretending to be passed out. I thought my mother would yell at my Dad, and she did.
"Eddie! Get down here and discipline your child! He threw himself down the stairs!"
Both my parents got their turn spanking me that night. I was also grounded from watching "Lost in Space."
Eagle
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VeganXTC
I'm really glad that there are people who were spanked and who turned out fine. There are people who smoked since they were teenagers, Milton Berle and George Burns for example, who lived to be in their 90's, and even 100. But I don't think anyone would say that smoking is good for longevity, and should be encourgaed by our teenagers.
Some children who are spanked are more resilient than others. Some children who are spanked have better circumstances than others. Is it possible that you turned out well in spite of and not because of spankings?
No matter how you hit, the intent of a spanking is pain. I don't feel violence has any place in the raising up of a child. I'd opt for respectful guidence if I could start over.
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excathedra
i've lived through a few spankings (not beatings)
but i'm not a spanker.... presently i'm a strangler....
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krys
Oh how I understand your position dear Excie! Been there, done that, got the tee shirt!
Just remember when you get those moments - something my mother-in-law taught me, and I know from experience it't true.
"Grandchildren are God's give to those who didn't strangle their kids when they were teenagers."
Furthermore, I can attest to the fact that Grandchildren are one of this life's greatest treassure. Don't miss out on yours (down the road a fur piece - I know)
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excathedra
thanks my dear kryssie, love you
--
on a different note, i'm absolutely amazed how sure people are about these things....
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ChattyKathy
excie....you made me laugh dear!
And if I am one that you were speaking of as being so sure of myself on this I would love to have your input.
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Sushi
this is not directed at anyone in particular, just those who 'know that they know that they know'.
I was at my ex mother in law's house one day. I was being a little testy. Not call the cops testy, but testy nonetheless. I forget what it was about, other than I was ABSOLUTELY sure about something (kind of like being 'way brained') about something. She finally turned to me and said, "Have you ever been so sure about something and been WRONG?" This came like a lightning bolt out of the blue. Needless to say, this cooled my jets for the rest of the day.
My point is, I don't know what, if anything, you can be absolutely sure of in this world. Other than knowing The Chicago Cubs aren't going to be in the World Series anytime soon (buuut, The Boston Red Sox made it, leading me to 'believe', there's hope for the Cubs).
Yet another point. I suppose the decision to be made is, would you rather be right or happy?
Thus endeth the sermon.
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ChattyKathy
Brother....allow me to follow your ministry of words....I promise I'll be a good and faithful follower....
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Kevlar2000
"Oh, the pain, the pain!"
------------------------------------------
I guess I'm just extremely fortunate in that my kid, Bodhi Armour, never needed a whole lot of disciplining. She's just one of those kids whose disposition tends toward affable, good natured and go-along-to-get-along. She's her own person, and somehow learned not to let people pressure her to violate her own sense of right and wrong.
I think it also helped that her mom and I have a sense of life and humor that dwells firmly in the Land of Odd near the Border of Bizarre. We laughed more than we screamed, and I think that rubbed off on her.
I've only ever spanked her once (her mom has never spanked her) - I don't even remember what it was for. Just a light, quick smack on the butt.
And I felt like such a completely inhuman s--t for hurting this sweet, good-natured kid. I've never done it since. Never needed to.
I'm not sure if this contributes to the arguments for or against spanking. I certainly got my share when I was a kid, but that was different times and a completely different living situation.
I just feel like it's an option of last resort. IMHO.
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Shellon
Man Zaps Wife's Grandmother With Taser in Dispute Over Spanking
http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_st...,247439,00.html
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ChattyKathy
This is most certainly a tough subject but I think that the option to spank (which I define as a light tap, not a beating) should not be taken away from the parent. It allows control inside our homes that is no one business but the parent and the child. Now of course abuse is entirely different and anyone that knows me on this forum knows I am intimate with every form of abuse there is so I certainly am not condoning it and I would assume that would be realized.
It's just the taking over our free will that makes my head hot.
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coolchef
shell, that was an interesting story.
i am by no strech of the immagination a violent person but if i was in that guys shoes, and she wouldn't leave MY house she would have been physically escorted out with a kick on the bum
MY kid MY house get out grandma
MY life too .something like this happened to me but ,opposite
we were at a family gathering.
one of my sons then about 3 or 4 was at the waters edge of the lake
i and others were watching him for safty reasons of course
the lake was very shallow and the kid was just playinfg on the shore
he had my permission
then
out of the blue his step grand father went up to him and literally grabed the boys ear lobe and carried him away from the beach
i went up to the old basta333d and told him if he ever touched my son again i would make live miserable for the old fart
i also told the ole pr11k that if we were not at this family gathering he would be lying on his back looking up
I and I only had the right to disaplin my kids un less you had my permission to do so
and permission was granted many times
and yes i did spank and they all turned out to be responsible adults .
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HAPe4me
Kathy-
I just noted your definition. "A light tap...." to me that is just "getting attention". My definition of spanking would be:
"a series of taps or swats, light or otherwise, given as punishment for a perceived wrong behavior or to discourage future wrong behavior". If all we had been talking about these 4 pages was "a light tap", I doubt I would have had much of an opinion. However, some have expressed support for using everything from hands to belts to spoons to switches. Some have expressed their idea that it is a GOOD thing to instill fear of pain from anyone in authority to guide a child's behavior. These attitudes is what I dispute. A single "light tap" is not painful, and:
I hope nobody thinks I was making an issue of a "light tap".
IMO, slapping a young hand AS they reach towards a hot stove or lawnmower or other potentially dangerous activity, is far different from taking the child aside and deliberately with intent, instilling pain on them in hopes of teaching them to not repeat an activity like running around a store or saying some word or not cleaning their room, or getting into a fight, "talking back" or whatever the case may be.
Sushi- within the definition I used for spanking, I am HAPPY to believe I am "SO RIGHT", but I will not beat you over the head with it. :P
I contend that the concept of "might makes right" is outdated, and probably was never correct in parenting (or international affairs), no matter if the long term result was not physically or mentally damaging to anyone in a particular case. We should not inhibit ourselves from expressing our belief that we are right, we should also never be so closed-minded to other views that we fail to learn from others. I have listened, I have learned, but as yet have seen nothing presented in the way of anything other than anecdotal evidence to demonstrate that spanking and slapping were the beneficial determining factors in the life of a child.
In any particular anecdotal situation, perhaps spanking or slapping can not be proven to cause long term mental or physical harm. Did it help, or would a less CONVENIENT discipline technique have been at least equally and perhaps more successful? I think parents should consider this.
All I hoped for in this discussion is that parents consider what they are doing, and not pick the convenience of spanking and slapping if it in any way could be damaging to a child physically or mentally. My children are long out of the house, it will never be a choice I personally need to make again. When (if) a grandparent I become, I hope I have the patience to deal with matters in a steady and considerate way, as I tried so carefully to do with my own children. I did not and do not take parenting lightly. I only had hoped to share my views, my experiences, and some of what I have learned through years of formal and informal thought on this very subject.
~HAP
If everyone's free will was as willfully considered as yours, this likely would not have been a 4 page thread, and legislation would likely not have been considered to perhaps be needed.
~HAP
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ChattyKathy
Well poop on a stick! I swear that light tap was downright PC of me! Barf me out the door on that one Hap.
I agree with your post so won't bother to repeat it, ain't I taking the lazy way out on that one. <_<
And if I could trust the folks making decisions for my life it would be an entirely different thing than what we have in real life. We know it isn't to our best interest that many decisions are made by those above us. And the PC folks are downright dangerous in office, just downright dangerous.
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potato
grandma wouldn't be welcome in my house after that. if she had legit concerns, then don't just threaten to call, make the call. while he shouldn't have tazered her (she wasn't a threat) I agree that escorting her out, bodily if necessary, sounds like a good idea. that, or have the cops do it.
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HAPe4me
Only in a case where there is no government at all are decisions not made by others concerning our life. I do not know oif such a place. The best we can hope for in most cases is that the decisions a government makes over our lives are ones we can reasonably live with.
I am not certain that "WE" know the PC folks are downright dangerous. You might know this, but I reserve the right to disagree, pending further analysis. Unless by PC you refer to the flack between Windows based computers and the Apple O.S., and then I might have to agree with you afterall, mostly but not in every case, sometimes, in some applications. Clear as mud?
HAP <======marks 01/27/2007 as the day Kathy agreed with one of my posts.
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excathedra
NEVER EVER EVER
i guess we've been talking about different things here
my misunderstanding
sorry, and no cath, i was not referring to you....
i was just saying i get confused at times as i'm trying so hard to be the best kind of parent possible
and was it you who said stuff about center of the universe ? my pediatrician told me in no uncertain terms to STOP making my son the center of the universe because i was doing him a great disservice (for when he would experience the "real universe). this was when he was 3. and god i've been trying so hard these 9+ years....
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ChattyKathy
What concerns me about the PC thinking I'm referring to is not having the balls to just flat out say NO you cannot keep taking from us and not giving in return NO you cannot expect me to give you more than we are giving our legal citizens right now.
If we really are the richest nation in the world (questionable as each day passes) that seems to tell the world we are there to support them. Why? Why are we there to support the rest of the world? Why are we bound to that?
PC people that I am referring to think nothing of giving us away lest we not appear humanitarian. And they do it at the cost of the ones paying their wages. It is okay to say NO we will not support you No we will not be the first to jump in and lend a hand NO we will not be the first to protect you from your own insane leaders. I do not agree with policing the world. I do not agree with fixing the world. I do not agree with imposing our democracy on the world. Obviously I do not agree with GWB then.
I fall back to being too nice with people, I don't want to hurt their feelings, I don't want to add to their suffering already. Then guess what happens to me, I have given away myself when I didn't have me to give in the first place. I have laid on my back and taken it because I thought I had to give. Bullcrap! I don't have to give a dang thing that I don't want to give. And I don't want some feel good PC politician giving me away either.
And I really do agree with you Hap so you keep that day marked dear man. You are a good guy!
excie,
You'll not find me in the line to tell you that you erred in raising your son. I have an idea why he was so important to you and why you would fight to protect and love and offer him a life you didn't have.
I have an acquaintance who I am helping thru a class right now. She makes it very hard on me because she can't meet with me when it's convenient with me because her daughter has to take her nap at a certain time and she has to go to bed after being read to and given a snack at a certain time. I want to tell this mother she is setting her daughter up for a terrible fall but I don't know this mother that well and haven't felt I had the access to without it hurting the bigger need, the assistance she needs right now. She is the example of making that little toddler more important than her own growth and I can see it is making a huge wedge between her and her husband. All three of them are going to suffer.
You want better for your son than you had for yourself. That is not the same excie, not to me anyway dear.
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