I am not saying we shouldn`t look back fondly on the good times. Rejoice in the friendships. Take what is of value and apply it as we move on.
We cannot however move and grow if we are bull dof=gged determined that we are right.
I just wonder why it bothers us so to take into consideration that we may have been wrong. In spite of our best intentions and knowledge of scriptures.
So that is my question...Do we need twi to be right and spiritually healthy in order to feel good or confident in ourselves? DO we not think about what happened in order to avoid the implications of the spiritual darkness of this groups leaders?
Gee, that was one mouthful of a question, rascal!! So, here's my 2 cents......
It's human nature to want to think that our decisions are right. And, I think for some, that may mean it's very difficult to admit making a mistake. Do we need twi to be right and spiritually healthy in order to feel good or confident in ourselves? I think most would say they don't. But at the same time, some have to think that at least some of it was good. I disagree there. Of course the scriptures were wonderful and since most, when they first came to TWI, had not read the whole bible, they were new and enlightening. Where I had a problem was with how TWI's leadership twisted those wonderful scriptures to serve their own purposes. The "law of believing" is a good example. The scriptures used were great scriptures and were, indeed, The Word of God. But, the meaning, and context, that vp assigned to them was completely wrong. For me, that kind of "wrong dividing" makes everything he/they taught suspicious, and tends to "spoil the whole pot".
I don't have enough years left to disect all those doctrines and correct them (even if I was capable of it). I believe that's a fools errand...to try to fix TWI. I chose to scrap as much as I possibly could (and that's still an ongoing project) and start over, letting Jesus and my Father teach this fool that which even a fool need not err in. I came to truly believe, and trust, that my Father and Jesus would show me and teach me the lessons I needed to know. And I think that's true of each and every person that wants to know God. TWI's greatest evil was stearing God kids away from Jesus Christ and surplanting him with the MOG concept. I think that was Satan's greatest trick...and vp fell for it hook, line, and sinker!
So, I do think it is wise to remember the evil wrought by TWI because it serves as a warning sign to never again let someone else pre-digest the Word and shove it down my throat, and to never allow anyone to dictate how I am to walk with Jesus Christ and my Father. That's personal! That's MY business! That's MY responsibility! Remind me of the scriptures...great! Remind me of God's love...wonderful! Have fellowships around the Word...fine. But DON'T even try to tell me that you know better what God wants me to do with my life.
Well, that's my 2cents on the subject, anyway. Who's next? :)
The Way was and is evil from its inception. That is what I believe. I don't believe in concidences and there is just no way to put together a well oil machine and glean mind control concepts from thin air and oooops accidentially put them into place. It was total control from the start when the Way East and West was disolved and everything went to HQ.
Were there great people? Of course there was, that WAS the selling point. However great the people were, it noway justifies or makes it better what TWI was.
Many people lost their lives, many lost their sanity.
Was it God's word taught? You decide. I decided no. I decided it was like the seed pickers up on Mars Hill, gleaning doctrines from here to there and putting them all together under one label. It was an oooooooooh woooooooooooow sensationalistic presentation of the Bible that was appealing to the masses of young adults who were coming out of the Flower Power age, down with the Man and down with the Establishment Age. Here they could believe in God and not do it the way their parents did.
I don`t know guys, seems like you gave a whole lot more n two cents worth...wow some very interesting points to consider. I feel like I owe you....
Listener, I think you nailed it...down to brass tacks....our spirituality is OUR business, OUR responsibility....when we allow someone else to assume that role, it is no wonder that the results were less than favorable. Your statement about satans greatest trick was steering God`s people away from Jesus and supplanting him with the mog concept is also quite a stunning concept to consider.
Full circle, I think that your point is very valid....that when the way east and west was seized, heck I`d say even further back to bg leanards class..... folks just didn`t realise that a ministry, or several had been hijacked. ...that that which was once good was now under someone elses control.
The reason that I have been thinking along these lines is because in my experience, when I began questioning the validity of what we were taught, the legitimacy of the ministry that we helped build, the accuracy of the knowledge taught or even the spiritual nature of those who deceived us, people can get really defensive, like it is them or their integrity being questioned.
I just wonder why we (not just us, I am talking about the other ex cult folks I have seen on interviews now) even decades afterwards feel so defensive and protective of our personal group and doctrine....even once aware that there were serious problems.
My thinking on the matter.....I made some real good decisions for the right reasons, I also made some bad decisions that turned out pretty ok in the end. Some of my wrong decisions were for very good reasons - especially because I was ignorant of any alternative.
So - does TWI have to be good? Not in my mind. Neither does it have to be evil. It is what it is and it was what it was. Organizations are made up of people. I was lucky enough to have met some fine people - though some of them went on to do some horrid things.
There is a fluidity to life. Consider the river that starts out slow and quiet and eventually produces raging rapids. Life can be like that. People can be like that. Hopefully the raging dies down and eventually becomes peaceful again.
When Hitler's mother looked down in the crib do you think she saw an evil monster????? I think not. Somewhere along the line he became evil. His evil is real and plain and evident, yet somewhere on the planet at one point in time he was just a kid on the playground.
Isn't that true of so many of us in TWI? I'm thinking not so much about VPW as I am about lots of folks that made the organization. Some started out good fine folks and became evil as they became drunk with power. Others just stayed the course. Others still were awful to the "minions" and now are repentent and make a wonderful positive impact. They changed and keep changing - hopefully for the better.
Ok - rambling again.......Maybe I should just shut up.
Rascal------I think people, like the ones you are referring to having seen on TV, get defensive because it is downright embarassing to admit you've been played for a chump. I think once you do,though, it starts to relieve some of the pressure that comes with trying to hold onto something that has no substance.
I used to tell myself that ourself that at LEAST we were smarter than that jonestown bunch. I was still smug and arrogant concerning the knowledge that I had aquired.
I guess that I saw myself in some of those interviews.
I don't think that recognizing the good things about twi at its conception means that I am trying to hold onto something with no substance. When I think back to when I first signed the green card and the list of things it claimed to provide that I said I wanted, I don't think that there is one of those things that I didn't have when I finished PFAL. Most of them I still have today, thirty years later. Yes, twi proved to be a fallible human organization with plenty of faults, but it still brought many people deliverence, and once again I will concede that people have frequently let me down, but God never has. And, BTW, only one man suffered and died to buy my happiness, and God gave Him one heck of a reward.
Jean, so you received deliverance....great...what about our brothers and sisters who didn`t?
Some of us were wounded grievously by the same fellows teaching you the scriptures.....Why would a loving God lead all of us us to a place that would wound many of us so deeply?
Did he pick a few ...you ..you and I believe um yes...you over there will recieve knowledge and deliverance.....and let me see....you..and you will lose your families, you over there are expected to service the mogs, and you in the corner over there..you will be dying...sorry, but not to worry, I won`t let you down, and you can blame every bad thing that brings you to despair, on the fallibility of men...shrug
I think that is an awfull lot to lay at his feet, given the scriptural account on how precious a single soul is. How could any knowledge learned be worth what was suffered?
Given the information available now in hindsight, it is time for me to reassess whether or not we were led there by God, or twi`s spiritual healthiness, or if the knowledge aquired is even valid.
Perhaps God led us to a point and then we stopped following. (I'm speaking on individual terms here.) Some of the very same people that received deliverance turned around and became evil taskmasters. Some - not all. We all have seen this type of thing - and there are even accounts of this sort in the Bible. The man who is forgiven of much who refuses to forgive little. Kings who became heartless and cruel.
I just don't believe that there are any easy answers here. Why do these things happen? I dont' know and I"m not going to pretend to have the answers. Life is complex. The main mistake we (and most Christians) make is that we oversimplify life so that it fits in a neat little box of rules that we feel we can control. Then the bottom falls out and we find ourselves looking for another box.
Like I said already, life is fluid. People change. They change from year to year and from person to person. The problem with religion is that it involves people. As long as you people involved in something, you're going to have problems. Perhaps that is where the real lessons come. We each are faced with choices daily regarding how we will treat each other and how we will deal with our stuff.
Jean, so you received deliverance....great...what about our brothers and sisters who didn`t?
Some of us were wounded grievously by the same fellows teaching you the scriptures.....Why would a loving God lead all of us us to a place that would wound many of us so deeply?
Did he pick a few ...you ..you and I believe um yes...you over there will recieve knowledge and deliverance.....and let me see....you..and you will lose your families, you over there are expected to service the mogs, and you in the corner over there..you will be dying...sorry, but not to worry, I won`t let you down, and you can blame every bad thing that brings you to despair, on the fallibility of men...shrug
I think that is an awfull lot to lay at his feet, given the scriptural account on how precious a single soul is. How could any knowledge learned be worth what was suffered?
Given the information available now in hindsight, it is time for me to reassess whether or not we were led there by God, or twi`s spiritual healthiness, or if the knowledge aquired is even valid.
You are reading something into my post that I never meant to say. I am not laying any thing at God's feet nor blaming him for any thing. "How could any knowledge learned be worth what was suffered?" Then I guess Pentacost and the ability to be born again and speak in tongues, and have direct access to God in prayer weren't worth what Jesus Christ went through. John understated the case when he referred to you as sociapath.
Dooj, you make some very good points. I think at some point we stopped regarding twi as a human organization with human faults and began equating God and twi.
Is there a way to have an intelligent discussion about this without resorting to namecalling?
Once the discussion gets to that point - all this talk about the abuses of the Way Corps go straight out the window. Hey if I was in the evil master indoctrination program and I'm behaving then so can the two of you.
Ok Jean, that's quite a strong statement calling Rascal a sociopath.
Rascal made some great points. In hindsight, I also believe VP was a shuckster, a wolf in sheep's clothing and not born again. This is what we do, discuss.
Someone disagrees with you and they're a sociopath?
We each are faced with choices daily regarding how we will treat each other and how we will deal with our stuff.
Amen CHOICES CHOICES CHOICES it's all about Choices. Do we respond to what the scriptures say or do we not. One could ask this question another way, Does TWI have to be bad? Do some need it to be bad to make them feel ok about their choices?
Hey WAIT just a damned miniute Dooj. I haven`t done a THING to have you include me in that statement of NOT behaving.
That really ....es me off.
My point of view obviously irritates you jean to the point that you feel compelled to resort to name calling rather than rational discussion of ideas...ok, no problem. This response actually enhances the point that I was trying to make in a way. In our need to be right, it seems like we have to lable everything or everyone wrong or evil or crazy that would present information contrary to that which we would like to believe...shrug
Amen CHOICES CHOICES CHOICES it's all about Choices. Do we respond to what the scriptures say or do we not. One could ask this question another way, Does TWI have to be bad? Do some need it to be bad to make them feel ok about their choices?
To some people "yes" others need to be bad so that they can feel good about themselves. Some people need to compair themselves to others. I think it is because they don't feel very good about themselves. But that's my opinion.
TWI like most things was both good and bad. Some cling to the good other to the bad. I myself have tried to gleen the good and discard the bad. It is an ongoing process. I ask God to forgive me for the mistakes that I have made that might have hurt others and I try not to make those mistakes again. These things are my choice.
I try not to defend TWI but after reading the original post on this thread I realized that I have said a couple of those things or similar. Sooo I guess that I would try to make excuses not because I don't want to be wrong, but because I don't want to think that I wasted so many years. Some good came out of it I know because I grew mentally and spiritually in ways that I had not known were possible until TWI.
Eyes, I think the statement that you made * because I don`t want to think that I wasted so many years* is a key point.
I am not against holding on to the good that we recieved.
It is when in order to believe in that good, (I am not talking about you now) we have to lable any information or person who presents evidence contrary to the view we hold as lies or somehow evil in order to maintain our personal perspective.
I am just now realising how conveniently I dismissed information all of these years because I didn`t want to face the embarassing prospect that I might have been wrong.
Hey WAIT just a damned miniute Dooj. I haven`t done a THING to have you include me in that statement of NOT behaving.
That really ....es me off.
My point of view obviously irritates you jean to the point that you feel compelled to resort to name calling rather than rational discussion of ideas...ok, no problem. This response actually enhances the point that I was trying to make in a way. In our need to be right, it seems like we have to lable everything or everyone wrong or evil or crazy that would present information contrary to that which we would like to believe...shrug
Once again do you never realize that that is exactly what you do. You haven't done a thing that falls in the category of not behaving, lol.
It is my point of view that you appear to disagree with, so you then need to brand me as evil or crazy in order to feel right, rather than counter with logical points.
That is the same thing that we tend to do with our cult involvement.
Lets try not to think about the abuse, lets try not to think about the betrayal and death, lets not examine the fruit of the spirit that will identify whether our leader are of the flesh or of the spirit TOO closely because we really don`t want to KNOW what the source of their power was...geeze ..it just isn`t honest.
I mentioned this on the corpes thread, but I think it is applicable here as well.
I think that it is very difficult to go from thinking that we were *God`s elite* with a special corner on the market of truth, to becoming humble enough to admit that we were mistaken and start again from scratch.
I think that sometimes arrogance prevents us from honesty.
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rascal
I am not saying we shouldn`t look back fondly on the good times. Rejoice in the friendships. Take what is of value and apply it as we move on.
We cannot however move and grow if we are bull dof=gged determined that we are right.
I just wonder why it bothers us so to take into consideration that we may have been wrong. In spite of our best intentions and knowledge of scriptures.
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Listener
Gee, that was one mouthful of a question, rascal!! So, here's my 2 cents......
It's human nature to want to think that our decisions are right. And, I think for some, that may mean it's very difficult to admit making a mistake. Do we need twi to be right and spiritually healthy in order to feel good or confident in ourselves? I think most would say they don't. But at the same time, some have to think that at least some of it was good. I disagree there. Of course the scriptures were wonderful and since most, when they first came to TWI, had not read the whole bible, they were new and enlightening. Where I had a problem was with how TWI's leadership twisted those wonderful scriptures to serve their own purposes. The "law of believing" is a good example. The scriptures used were great scriptures and were, indeed, The Word of God. But, the meaning, and context, that vp assigned to them was completely wrong. For me, that kind of "wrong dividing" makes everything he/they taught suspicious, and tends to "spoil the whole pot".
I don't have enough years left to disect all those doctrines and correct them (even if I was capable of it). I believe that's a fools errand...to try to fix TWI. I chose to scrap as much as I possibly could (and that's still an ongoing project) and start over, letting Jesus and my Father teach this fool that which even a fool need not err in. I came to truly believe, and trust, that my Father and Jesus would show me and teach me the lessons I needed to know. And I think that's true of each and every person that wants to know God. TWI's greatest evil was stearing God kids away from Jesus Christ and surplanting him with the MOG concept. I think that was Satan's greatest trick...and vp fell for it hook, line, and sinker!
So, I do think it is wise to remember the evil wrought by TWI because it serves as a warning sign to never again let someone else pre-digest the Word and shove it down my throat, and to never allow anyone to dictate how I am to walk with Jesus Christ and my Father. That's personal! That's MY business! That's MY responsibility! Remind me of the scriptures...great! Remind me of God's love...wonderful! Have fellowships around the Word...fine. But DON'T even try to tell me that you know better what God wants me to do with my life.
Well, that's my 2cents on the subject, anyway. Who's next? :)
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coolchef
i don't have 2 cents to offer
payday is tommorow
but i'll say this gratis
the way sucked some really great people down
so the bottom line is twi sucked
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Listener
Uh, oh! Forgot about payday! Thanks, coolchef. Rascal, I'll have to owe you that two cents.
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FullCircle
The Way was and is evil from its inception. That is what I believe. I don't believe in concidences and there is just no way to put together a well oil machine and glean mind control concepts from thin air and oooops accidentially put them into place. It was total control from the start when the Way East and West was disolved and everything went to HQ.
Were there great people? Of course there was, that WAS the selling point. However great the people were, it noway justifies or makes it better what TWI was.
Many people lost their lives, many lost their sanity.
Was it God's word taught? You decide. I decided no. I decided it was like the seed pickers up on Mars Hill, gleaning doctrines from here to there and putting them all together under one label. It was an oooooooooh woooooooooooow sensationalistic presentation of the Bible that was appealing to the masses of young adults who were coming out of the Flower Power age, down with the Man and down with the Establishment Age. Here they could believe in God and not do it the way their parents did.
A rebel with a Bible.
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rascal
I don`t know guys, seems like you gave a whole lot more n two cents worth...wow some very interesting points to consider. I feel like I owe you....
Listener, I think you nailed it...down to brass tacks....our spirituality is OUR business, OUR responsibility....when we allow someone else to assume that role, it is no wonder that the results were less than favorable. Your statement about satans greatest trick was steering God`s people away from Jesus and supplanting him with the mog concept is also quite a stunning concept to consider.
Full circle, I think that your point is very valid....that when the way east and west was seized, heck I`d say even further back to bg leanards class..... folks just didn`t realise that a ministry, or several had been hijacked. ...that that which was once good was now under someone elses control.
The reason that I have been thinking along these lines is because in my experience, when I began questioning the validity of what we were taught, the legitimacy of the ministry that we helped build, the accuracy of the knowledge taught or even the spiritual nature of those who deceived us, people can get really defensive, like it is them or their integrity being questioned.
I just wonder why we (not just us, I am talking about the other ex cult folks I have seen on interviews now) even decades afterwards feel so defensive and protective of our personal group and doctrine....even once aware that there were serious problems.
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doojable
My thinking on the matter.....I made some real good decisions for the right reasons, I also made some bad decisions that turned out pretty ok in the end. Some of my wrong decisions were for very good reasons - especially because I was ignorant of any alternative.
So - does TWI have to be good? Not in my mind. Neither does it have to be evil. It is what it is and it was what it was. Organizations are made up of people. I was lucky enough to have met some fine people - though some of them went on to do some horrid things.
There is a fluidity to life. Consider the river that starts out slow and quiet and eventually produces raging rapids. Life can be like that. People can be like that. Hopefully the raging dies down and eventually becomes peaceful again.
When Hitler's mother looked down in the crib do you think she saw an evil monster????? I think not. Somewhere along the line he became evil. His evil is real and plain and evident, yet somewhere on the planet at one point in time he was just a kid on the playground.
Isn't that true of so many of us in TWI? I'm thinking not so much about VPW as I am about lots of folks that made the organization. Some started out good fine folks and became evil as they became drunk with power. Others just stayed the course. Others still were awful to the "minions" and now are repentent and make a wonderful positive impact. They changed and keep changing - hopefully for the better.
Ok - rambling again.......Maybe I should just shut up.
Carry on..
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waysider
Rascal------I think people, like the ones you are referring to having seen on TV, get defensive because it is downright embarassing to admit you've been played for a chump. I think once you do,though, it starts to relieve some of the pressure that comes with trying to hold onto something that has no substance.
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doojable
Yea - Waysider's right..
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rascal
I think that you are right waysider.
So are we guilty of the same defense mechanisms?
I used to tell myself that ourself that at LEAST we were smarter than that jonestown bunch. I was still smug and arrogant concerning the knowledge that I had aquired.
I guess that I saw myself in some of those interviews.
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Jeaniam
I don't think that recognizing the good things about twi at its conception means that I am trying to hold onto something with no substance. When I think back to when I first signed the green card and the list of things it claimed to provide that I said I wanted, I don't think that there is one of those things that I didn't have when I finished PFAL. Most of them I still have today, thirty years later. Yes, twi proved to be a fallible human organization with plenty of faults, but it still brought many people deliverence, and once again I will concede that people have frequently let me down, but God never has. And, BTW, only one man suffered and died to buy my happiness, and God gave Him one heck of a reward.
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rascal
Jean, so you received deliverance....great...what about our brothers and sisters who didn`t?
Some of us were wounded grievously by the same fellows teaching you the scriptures.....Why would a loving God lead all of us us to a place that would wound many of us so deeply?
Did he pick a few ...you ..you and I believe um yes...you over there will recieve knowledge and deliverance.....and let me see....you..and you will lose your families, you over there are expected to service the mogs, and you in the corner over there..you will be dying...sorry, but not to worry, I won`t let you down, and you can blame every bad thing that brings you to despair, on the fallibility of men...shrug
I think that is an awfull lot to lay at his feet, given the scriptural account on how precious a single soul is. How could any knowledge learned be worth what was suffered?
Given the information available now in hindsight, it is time for me to reassess whether or not we were led there by God, or twi`s spiritual healthiness, or if the knowledge aquired is even valid.
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doojable
Perhaps God led us to a point and then we stopped following. (I'm speaking on individual terms here.) Some of the very same people that received deliverance turned around and became evil taskmasters. Some - not all. We all have seen this type of thing - and there are even accounts of this sort in the Bible. The man who is forgiven of much who refuses to forgive little. Kings who became heartless and cruel.
I just don't believe that there are any easy answers here. Why do these things happen? I dont' know and I"m not going to pretend to have the answers. Life is complex. The main mistake we (and most Christians) make is that we oversimplify life so that it fits in a neat little box of rules that we feel we can control. Then the bottom falls out and we find ourselves looking for another box.
Like I said already, life is fluid. People change. They change from year to year and from person to person. The problem with religion is that it involves people. As long as you people involved in something, you're going to have problems. Perhaps that is where the real lessons come. We each are faced with choices daily regarding how we will treat each other and how we will deal with our stuff.
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Jeaniam
You are reading something into my post that I never meant to say. I am not laying any thing at God's feet nor blaming him for any thing. "How could any knowledge learned be worth what was suffered?" Then I guess Pentacost and the ability to be born again and speak in tongues, and have direct access to God in prayer weren't worth what Jesus Christ went through. John understated the case when he referred to you as sociapath.
Dooj, you make some very good points. I think at some point we stopped regarding twi as a human organization with human faults and began equating God and twi.
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doojable
Is there a way to have an intelligent discussion about this without resorting to namecalling?
Once the discussion gets to that point - all this talk about the abuses of the Way Corps go straight out the window. Hey if I was in the evil master indoctrination program and I'm behaving then so can the two of you.
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Sunesis
Ok Jean, that's quite a strong statement calling Rascal a sociopath.
Rascal made some great points. In hindsight, I also believe VP was a shuckster, a wolf in sheep's clothing and not born again. This is what we do, discuss.
Someone disagrees with you and they're a sociopath?
Who made you God and judge?
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WhiteDove
Amen CHOICES CHOICES CHOICES it's all about Choices. Do we respond to what the scriptures say or do we not. One could ask this question another way, Does TWI have to be bad? Do some need it to be bad to make them feel ok about their choices?
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rascal
Hey WAIT just a damned miniute Dooj. I haven`t done a THING to have you include me in that statement of NOT behaving.
That really ....es me off.
My point of view obviously irritates you jean to the point that you feel compelled to resort to name calling rather than rational discussion of ideas...ok, no problem. This response actually enhances the point that I was trying to make in a way. In our need to be right, it seems like we have to lable everything or everyone wrong or evil or crazy that would present information contrary to that which we would like to believe...shrug
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Eyesopen
To some people "yes" others need to be bad so that they can feel good about themselves. Some people need to compair themselves to others. I think it is because they don't feel very good about themselves. But that's my opinion.
TWI like most things was both good and bad. Some cling to the good other to the bad. I myself have tried to gleen the good and discard the bad. It is an ongoing process. I ask God to forgive me for the mistakes that I have made that might have hurt others and I try not to make those mistakes again. These things are my choice.
I try not to defend TWI but after reading the original post on this thread I realized that I have said a couple of those things or similar. Sooo I guess that I would try to make excuses not because I don't want to be wrong, but because I don't want to think that I wasted so many years. Some good came out of it I know because I grew mentally and spiritually in ways that I had not known were possible until TWI.
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rascal
Thank you Sunesis.
Eyes, I think the statement that you made * because I don`t want to think that I wasted so many years* is a key point.
I am not against holding on to the good that we recieved.
It is when in order to believe in that good, (I am not talking about you now) we have to lable any information or person who presents evidence contrary to the view we hold as lies or somehow evil in order to maintain our personal perspective.
I am just now realising how conveniently I dismissed information all of these years because I didn`t want to face the embarassing prospect that I might have been wrong.
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Jeaniam
Well said White Dove, and Eyesopen
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Jeaniam
Once again do you never realize that that is exactly what you do. You haven't done a thing that falls in the category of not behaving, lol.
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rascal
??? Oh well please do enlighten me then jean.
It is my point of view that you appear to disagree with, so you then need to brand me as evil or crazy in order to feel right, rather than counter with logical points.
That is the same thing that we tend to do with our cult involvement.
Lets try not to think about the abuse, lets try not to think about the betrayal and death, lets not examine the fruit of the spirit that will identify whether our leader are of the flesh or of the spirit TOO closely because we really don`t want to KNOW what the source of their power was...geeze ..it just isn`t honest.
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rascal
I mentioned this on the corpes thread, but I think it is applicable here as well.
I think that it is very difficult to go from thinking that we were *God`s elite* with a special corner on the market of truth, to becoming humble enough to admit that we were mistaken and start again from scratch.
I think that sometimes arrogance prevents us from honesty.
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