I mostly agree, Bolshevik. I think whatever "good things" were supposedly taught by TWI's MOG were so intertwined with erroneous doctrine that I find it extremely difficult to trust what was taught. I don't trust any of their teachings to be error free...and I don't mean nit-picking errors. They led the individual to believe that HE, the individual, was to be the beneficiary of the operation of God's power. They raised holy heck about Jesus not being God, but then pushed Jesus aside when it came to his importance in the Body of Christ. They replaced Jesus Christ with the concept of the MOG being the authority figure in a believer's life. Well, Jesus Christ is the master key to releasing the power of God, not some MOG. Without Jesus Christ, the Word doesn't make sense. vp wouldn't let even Jesus Christ interfere with his MOGship. THAT'S pathetic.
The way I see it, everything that Jesus did was to benefit others, not himself. So then, we get born again and suddenly we are supposed to use that power to benefit ourselves and get what WE want? And also use it to control those around us through revelation? That's illogical, and in my opinion, wrong. I think we're supposed to imitate Jesus walk, not invent a new one. Didn't he spend his life in service to OTHERS, not himself?
That's my take on it, anyway. And these are just my opinions...I don't mean to be preachy. Sorry if it comes off that way. :)
I mentioned this on the corpes thread, but I think it is applicable here as well.
I think that it is very difficult to go from thinking that we were *God`s elite* with a special corner on the market of truth, to becoming humble enough to admit that we were mistaken and start again from scratch.
I think that sometimes arrogance prevents us from honesty.
I have no desire to start again from scratch. As I mentioned once before thirty yers ago when I signed the green card, I said I was looking for certain things and all those things I received from PFAL. I agree with you 100% sometimes arrogance prevents us from honesty, and maybe this honesty should begin with you.
Is there a way to have an intelligent discussion about this without resorting to namecalling?
Once the discussion gets to that point - all this talk about the abuses of the Way Corps go straight out the window. Hey if I was in the evil master indoctrination program and I'm behaving then so can the two of you.
Rascal - I was just playing referee - and I was anticipating a response from you to Jean. Sorry if I offended you - I didn't mean to....
I mentioned this on the corpes thread, but I think it is applicable here as well.
I think that it is very difficult to go from thinking that we were *God`s elite* with a special corner on the market of truth, to becoming humble enough to admit that we were mistaken and start again from scratch.
I think that sometimes arrogance prevents us from honesty.
I did it. I never looked back. It was hard because I had to deal with losing friends that I had come to count on for support - but I did it all the same and I'd do it again.
I mentioned this on the corpes thread, but I think it is applicable here as well.
I think that it is very difficult to go from thinking that we were *God`s elite* with a special corner on the market of truth, to becoming humble enough to admit that we were mistaken and start again from scratch.
I think that sometimes arrogance prevents us from honesty.
I agree but I also think it is ironic because I've seen so many in twi admit an error. It was like some game to see who could be the most humble by openly displaying they made a mistake.
I think that it is very difficult to go from thinking that we were *God`s elite* with a special corner on the market of truth, to becoming humble enough to admit that we were mistaken and start again from scratch.
I have to say that I never thought of myself in this manner. (I know you were not directing this at me) I approached the Corps as a College. They had things to teach, and I had things to learn. Much of the repetitious stuff went in one ear and out the other, (or I slept through it). But some of the history of the OT, and other basic stuff that is really hard to screw up...I learned what I could from them and did my own studying and pondering to ascertain the truth. My parents raised me to think for myself so I do. I tried not to let TWI tell me what to think. But they did heartily and happily deceive me and that makes me angry.
The point that you made that if VP had not been our "teacher" then we would not feel the need to protect him. I think that you are right. Although I am not certain why I have up until this very moment felt the need to justify what he did. I did not condone it persay but I have said "Power corrupted him" and kind of shrugged it off as a thing of the past better left forgotten and hence unexamined by myself. How deplorable of me! To those that he hurt I humbly appologize! No joke, no excuses. That "shrug" was wrong of me. Do I know that power corrupted him? No, I do not. Perhaps this is the way he was all along. I will never excuse him for those actions again. Although I will never deny what I learned from TWI I think that I will have to give myself more credit than I once did for finding the candy despite their efforts to hide it.
Rascal, thanks for bringing this subject up in this manner. You and other posters have helped open my eyes just a bit more.
I never felt the need to defend VPW. I didn't know about his offenses until long after I left. Maybe I'm weird, but I always believed one thing - that we had to keep looking for the truth and admit when we were wrong.
How did VPW get the way he was? Whether he was born evil or became evil, or was corrupted by power - the end result was that people were hurt, used, abused, and treated like dirt. THAT is all that matters. It doesn't matter that it didn't happen to me - it happened to someone. That it was done in the name of God - shameless.
Now when people ask me about my younger years I tell them I was involved with a cult, though I didn't think so at the time. They don't look at me like I've sprouted a third eye and we move on to the next topic.
quote: I guess what I am getting at is why do we tend to consider twi and its abuses any less heinous than those suffered by folks who were part of the peoples temple or the branch dividians? Why do we not hold twi in the same contempt? People were decieved, the scriptures used to enforce the evil required.... people were hurt, people died, scriptures were used to cover it all.
Yeah, BUT...same for the catholic church. I admit that when I consider some of THEIR history, it's tempting to just write them off as an evil organization from the start. They pervert God's word, they murdered and tortured in the name of God, they even supplied TWI with 2/3 of their people. Do they admit THEY were ever wrong?
But if someone says they're catholic and that they love their church and that they believe that's where God wants them to be, then who am I to challenge that?
quote: never allow anyone to dictate how I am to walk with Jesus Christ and my Father. That's personal! That's MY business! That's MY responsibility! Remind me of the scriptures...great! Remind me of God's love...wonderful! Have fellowships around the Word...fine. But DON'T even try to tell me that you know better what God wants me to do with my life.
I agree 100%. Rascal, you cross the line here. I know you have your reasons, but you tell people how to think and what God wants them to do. You really do. That's just not going to wash.
Hells bells, I don`t know what *I* think most of the time...it`d be pretty tough for me to tell anyone ELSE what to think... :blink: ....lol
John in me simply questioning the validity of what we are taught and the spirituality of those who taught us based on the fruit exhibited....you feel the need to brand me as a liar, pshycotic...whatever...and you feel compelled to make me out as somehow untrustworthy or having an agenda, so that my point of view will not have any merit.....
That is the point that I am trying to discuss....in your need to believe in the wholesome nature of twi, you have to brand any who have experience to the contrary as some how crazy or evil...in other words, in your need to be right, you have to trash someone else....
This was the point I was trying to make about folks who had been in cults feeling so protective of their own particular group.
Eyes, YOU get it!! You understand the concept that I was trying to articulate and just not doing a very good job at. It is mighty hard for me to give credit to or thank God for the guys who hurt so many of my brothers and sister. For in so doing, it feels like what happened to them just wasn`t a big deal.
That is just it, rascal, you have no "evidence", all you have is bunch of statements that would be called in a court of law hearsay. It is not even available to find out the whole story. No one can call VPW and ask him what his side is since he's dead.
And as far as your statement that I don't answer you on a point by point basis, I suggest you reread the PMs. Any time any one makes a point you don't have an answer for you just ignore them. I'm still waiting for an answer on whether YOU knew VPW or LCM personally as well as various other points.
BTW neither John or myself believes in the positive nature of present day twi (although I hear they're trying to clean up their act) nor do we thank God for men (and women) who abused our brothers and sisters, but I will point out again that Jesus Christ who paid the highest price of any man seemed to think the things he bled and died for to be worth the price. Any of you been scourged and nailed to a cross recently?
Jean, you told me in your last haranguing that if I answered your pm you would have me reported. I guess I didn`t think you wanted to hear any of my answeres...shrug
The evidence is there. The stories have been told first hand by reputable posters, some of whom are my friends. I know what I personally experienced. I know that there are many who have come forth on other web sights. John L7nn among others confirmed what these girls said happened...
Somehow I still don`t think that will be good enough for you. You seem to have made up your mind that you cannot be wrong, there for, any evidence to the contrary would of necessity be a lie.
No, I haven't made up my mind at all. I don't know whether it happened or not, but I am not one of the ones who has taken it upon myself to sit in judgment. Once again, I will say you don't have evidence, you have the "stories" that people told, and all you have access to is one side of the story. I also find it interesting that now when it suits you, you quote one of the "evil" WC grads. I have spoken to ordained clergy who claim it happened, and I have spoken to ordained clergy who say that if it was going on they saw no signs of it. So, I will say again that I don't believe it is possible to find out the whole truth (VPW is dead, and no one can ask him). And once again I will refer you to the post "Paid in Full".
No, I haven't made up my mind at all. I don't know whether it happened or not, but I am not one of the ones who has taken it upon myself to sit in judgment. Once again, I will say you don't have evidence, you have the "stories" that people told, and all you have access to is one side of the story. I also find it interesting that now when it suits you, you quote one of the "evil" WC grads. I have spoken to ordained clergy who claim it happened, and I have spoken to ordained clergy who say that if it was going on they saw no signs of it. So, I will say again that I don't believe it is possible to find out the whole truth (VPW is dead, and no one can ask him). And once again I will refer you to the post "Paid in Full".
Isn't it possible that both sets of ordained clergy can be right? These two sets of people aren't mutually exclusive. It is entirely possible that the "evil deeds" happened and some saw and others didn't.
I know in my life that I had things happen to me that were a direct result of how VPW taught his minions to act.
That is just it, rascal, you have no "evidence", all you have is bunch of statements that would be called in a court of law hearsay.
Incorrect.
They would be called eyewitness accounts and witness testimony.
This is considered superior evidence to all other forms,
which legally are considered circumstantial.
Any attorney could tell you he could make or break any case
based on the eyewitness testimony.
All the circumstantial evidence in the world can't beat enough
eyewitness testimony.
It is not even available to find out the whole story. No one can call VPW and ask him what his side is since he's dead.
However,
when he WAS alive, he had a circle of people who appear to have contrived
to set up women to meet him alone,
a PLACE to meet them alone- with a bed,
people to "exit counsel" them and see if they looked like they'd talk to someone like the police,
and when women looked like they WOULD talk,
they were rushed off-grounds and everyone was told they were "possessed" and not to
talk to them.
Before the internet, it was a LOT harder to tell your story.
Plus, vpw had succeeded in making a public image that lent credibility to anything he said,
and he cashed in that currency when he said to ignore them.
And as far as your statement that I don't answer you on a point by point basis, I suggest you reread the PMs. Any time any one makes a point you don't have an answer for you just ignore them. I'm still waiting for an answer on whether YOU knew VPW or LCM personally as well as various other points.
This is why I address people in public here. There's less "he-said, she-said" involved.
BTW neither John or myself believes in the positive nature of present day twi (although I hear they're trying to clean up their act) nor do we thank God for men (and women) who abused our brothers and sisters,
Ah, it sounded like you were claiming there WAS no abuse.
Which was it?
but I will point out again that Jesus Christ who paid the highest price of any man seemed to think the things he bled and died for to be worth the price. Any of you been scourged and nailed to a cross recently?
Non-issue, if it means supposed leaders get a free pass and carte blanche to rape, drug, or otherwise
No, I haven't made up my mind at all. I don't know whether it happened or not, but I am not one of the ones who has taken it upon myself to sit in judgment.
You've already sat in judgement on those who've examined direct testimony.
Once again, I will say you don't have evidence, you have the "stories" that people told, and all you have access to is one side of the story.
Actually, we have testimony from some of those who came forth and admitted they knew this
was going on, and they buried it, as well.
There's a complete picture painted here.
The physical evidence shows that vpw had arranged for places to meet women privately.
There are people who say they're aware vpw was cheating on his wife with young believers,
which by itself was an abuse of his office and trust, even had that all been consentual.
We have people who've said they've encountered women right after they claimed they were
raped by vpw or that vpw seemed ready to rape them.
We have people who are aware of the "exit counselors" and the network covering vpw's tracks.
We have victim accounts-all of which harmonize- that they were told similar or identical raps.
We have victim testimony that vpw had their "From Birth to the Corps" paper in their hand,
and he claimed their past sexual trauma could be healed by sex from a real man of God,
as he put his moves on them.
We have victim testimony that some were drugged into unconsciousness, which skips
a few steps there.
We have eyewitness testimony that vpw had sent for someone, and when that woman
arrived, he was completely unclothed.
And-unless you are ready to call Jim D. a liar,
we have a witness who said that all the way back at the House of Acts,
vpw was interested in what orgies were like, and vpw volunteered that they were
permitted by God Almighty, complete with the verse used to permit it.
Now, if we had all this in a court of law,
the civil case would be a breeze,
and I think a criminal suit-with its higher criteria for a conviction-
would be a strong enough case that vpw would be desperate to get out of it.
The combination of "the lockbox" (vpw had a doctrine he taught his cadre that
instilled a code of silence-complete with a NAME),
his well-crafted public image,
his well-crafted and well-orchestrated criminal enterprise
(I mean the components of his rape machine, from before to after),
and the lack of communication before the internet,
allowed vpw a "freedom" he would not have today.
lcm was caught because
A) he didn't have as well-crafted a public image, so he could be questioned
B) he thought he wasn't doing wrong, so he didn't orchestrate so well to cover his tracks
C) communication after 1985 has improved drastically over the years,
allowing witnesses and victims to communicate
vpw knew he did wrong, and did everything possible to cover his tracks short of
murder, but even what he did, if done during the internet age, would have
eventually been caught.
I also find it interesting that now when it suits you, you quote one of the "evil" WC grads. I have spoken to ordained clergy who claim it happened, and I have spoken to ordained clergy who say that if it was going on they saw no signs of it.
On 9/11,
many people saw the planes hit, and the buildings damaged and collapsed.
Many people only know about this from video footage and news reports.
So, some claim it happened, and some saw no signs of it on their own.
That's why you even have some people to this day who claim there were no planes.
(I know someone who saw one plane hit, and told me ON 9/11.)
Testimony that some people didn't see something is not considered
"proof it didn't happen" by any reputable investigator, attorney or judge.
So, I will say again that I don't believe it is possible to find out the whole truth (VPW is dead, and no one can ask him). And once again I will refer you to the post "Paid in Full".
And if vpw was still alive, and insisted he was completely innocent and is being framed,
would you say "Well, that's it, he's being framed", and turn away?
I'll save you some time-he never admitted to anything, not even a lie when caught with proof he lied-
he always went to the next lie in line.
So, he'd SAY "I'm innocent, they're lying, I didn't do it."
The prisons of the US are FULL of people who claim they're 100% innocent, even with overwhelming
evidence they did it.
Death Row's got people who swear they didn't do it.
There's criminals who say they didn't do it when videotaped evidence shows them doing it.
Asking vpw would tell us little.
When he was alive, he silenced critics before they had a chance to speak.
That's clever, effective, efficient,
and shows PREMEDITATION
and AWARENESS THAT HE WAS DOING WRONG.
We know full well how he responded when alive.
He did such a good job that people to this day can face his victims and say
"You're lying."
Did Jesus pay the price for vpw's sins?
Yes, and that's STILL a non-issue,
unless you're saying what he did was completely excusable.
We hesitate to publish stories people (especially women) send us in which they claim that Way leaders were involved in sexual promiscuity, which sometimes included rape, inducement, abuse of power and drugs. We also hesitate to publish anonymous stories or articles, and stories of other spectacular claims such as stockpiling weapons..
There are several reasons we shy away from publishing these stories. First, we don't want to publish any false stories. We don't publish any known lies or falsehoods, even if we think it may help attain a healthy result (like people leaving TWI). Over the years, we believe we've built a reputation of integrity, documenting our information and being careful not to exaggerate. We don't want to damage our integrity by publishing things that seem spectacularly false.
From the practical standpoint, we don't need to make up serious errors in TWI-- there are so many true errors that we don't need to! We would like to collaborate all facts in stories people tell, although that isn't possible, especially since sexual sin is most often a private affair, known only to the perpetrator and the victim.
However, we have chosen to publish a few of the stories we've received, for the following reasons.
First, we have heard so many such stories from so many people spread across the country, that it becomes apparent that it isn't just a crazy person here and there who is making them up. The stories are similar in many ways, which implies a "typical" approach among Way leaders. They also report similar "reasoning" leaders used to defend their sinful actions. The most comprehensive example of this is the appendix of John Schoenheit's paper on adultery which offers a long list of "Biblical reasons" leaders used to defend sexual promiscuity.
Second, we have had a lot of private correspondence with those who wrote the letters we published, and with scores more who do not wish to publish their stories. We don't find that there are scores of women who are dying to get vengeance by printing false stories of being used sexually by leadership. Instead, scores of ex-Wayers come to us with their stories who don't want to face the inner embarrassment of publically describing what happened to them. Most readers would be overwhelmed if they were able to read all the correspondence we've received over the last 20 years from ex-Wayers about sexual indiscretions in TWI (especially among the Corps). It's a traumatic thing for women to write about the tragic things which have happened to them, because it invokes shame and guilt-- both guilt of submitting to leaders and the invalid guilt many people have when they'd been overwhelmed and abused by others.
Third, secrecy protects the perpetrators who used and abused others (especially male leaders who abused females). They want us all to be silent, because they don't want their evil deeds and crimes to become known. So we have a responsibility to speak out in order to heal the victims and help protect those who may become victims in the future.
Fourth, there are indications that certain past and present leaders in TWI are not people of substantial integrity. There is evidence of authoritarianism, greed, plagiarism, defensiveness, manipulation, and abuse of Scripture for selfish purposes. Sexual indiscretions would not be surprising in people who have this type of character.
Over the years, thousands of followers have left TWI mainly because sexual sin was practiced and defended by Way leadership on many levels. We invite other readers to submit their stories, or to confirm the stories we have published, in order to make clear that sexual error has been, and still is, a serious problem in TWI.
John P. Juedes, 1999 www.empirenet.com/~messiah7 "
quote: John in me simply questioning the validity of what we are taught and the spirituality of those who taught us based on the fruit exhibited....you feel the need to brand me as a liar, pshycotic...whatever...and you feel compelled to make me out as somehow untrustworthy or having an agenda, so that my point of view will not have any merit.....
That is the point that I am trying to discuss....in your need to believe in the wholesome nature of twi, you have to brand any who have experience to the contrary as some how crazy or evil...in other words, in your need to be right, you have to trash someone else....
This was the point I was trying to make about folks who had been in cults feeling so protective of their own particular group.
No, Rascal, you're wrong. My belief system is not based on men, though men taught it to me. The reason I still believe TWI doctrine is because IT WORKS!!!!! It worked in 1977 when I first took foundational PFAL and it works now. The issues I have with TWI are because of what people have done. This is separate from what God has done. You appear incapable of understanding this. You accuse me of having the need to lash out in order to validate what I believe, yet it is YOU who does that very thing.
I am capable of separating what men do from what God has done. You are willing to delete everything Christ accomplished for mankind and "start over from scratch" because of what men have done. Gee, if I'm going to start over from scratch, then do I need to reinvent the wheel, too? If I am capable of separating what God has done from what men have done, then so is God.
Jean referred to the "post paid in full". It's actually a thread in the open forum. It illustrates that Jesus the Christ paid in full for all our sins once we accept him. When I read Wordwolf's posts I can't help imagine what Satan the "prosecutor" will attempt to do in accusing God's people of all manner of sin "day and night before our God". The word says God shall wipe all tears from the eyes of His people...no more death, sorrow, crying, etc. It's GOING to happen. Not in this life, but it's GOING to happen.
Rascal, I don't try to appease you because all your rage is not going to make you any more peaceful. Even if every single poster on GSC sent you posts or PMs thanking you for "making them see the light" it wouldn't make you any more peaceful. You're tore up inside. You need an anchor of the soul. You have Xed out that hope because VP taught it to you. VP was only the sales rep; God's the manufacturer. Unlimited warranty. Sales reps can be fired, or die. VP didn't die for your sins. VP isn't the author of salvation. You need to humble yourself and ask God to pull you out of the whirlwind you're in.
One of the worst things that happened in TWI - by men and women - was people telling other people what was wrong with them. As if God himself had given a word of insight and now it was the duty of the "friend" to inform the other person what he saw. As I recall - Job referred to this type of person as a "miserable comforter." I'd say that when you can form planets and put them in the sky and make the oceans roar and the winds blow - then you can speak about what you see in another's life as if it God-breathed. In the meantime, I'd suggest softening the tone and allowing for your own error as to how you are interpreting the motives of the person in question.
I shudder with disgust whenever I hear someone giving another person "insight" into their soul.
John - you wrote"
"Rascal, I don't try to appease you because all your rage is not going to make you any more peaceful. Even if every single poster on GSC sent you posts or PMs thanking you for "making them see the light" it wouldn't make you any more peaceful. You're tore up inside. You need an anchor of the soul. You have Xed out that hope because VP taught it to you. VP was only the sales rep; God's the manufacturer. Unlimited warranty. Sales reps can be fired, or die. VP didn't die for your sins. VP isn't the author of salvation. You need to humble yourself and ask God to pull you out of the whirlwind you're in."
I'd be a lot more comfortable if you had at least left some room for your human error or possible misinterpretation of Rascal's "innerworkings" so to speak.
I notice that Rascal says things like "it seems that," or "somehow I don't think." At least she appears to be leaving some room for error.
I find it difficult to believe that this discussion will end up producing anything other than a p(ssing match.
Not without VPW's presence in court they wouldn't. If the defendant is dead there is no court case.
Jean - there are many more defendants that were produced by TWI.
BTW - while the person could not stand trial - the proof could still be made in court as to the guilt or innocence of a defendant that has died.
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I mostly agree, Bolshevik. I think whatever "good things" were supposedly taught by TWI's MOG were so intertwined with erroneous doctrine that I find it extremely difficult to trust what was taught. I don't trust any of their teachings to be error free...and I don't mean nit-picking errors. They led the individual to believe that HE, the individual, was to be the beneficiary of the operation of God's power. They raised holy heck about Jesus not being God, but then pushed Jesus aside when it came to his importance in the Body of Christ. They replaced Jesus Christ with the concept of the MOG being the authority figure in a believer's life. Well, Jesus Christ is the master key to releasing the power of God, not some MOG. Without Jesus Christ, the Word doesn't make sense. vp wouldn't let even Jesus Christ interfere with his MOGship. THAT'S pathetic.
The way I see it, everything that Jesus did was to benefit others, not himself. So then, we get born again and suddenly we are supposed to use that power to benefit ourselves and get what WE want? And also use it to control those around us through revelation? That's illogical, and in my opinion, wrong. I think we're supposed to imitate Jesus walk, not invent a new one. Didn't he spend his life in service to OTHERS, not himself?
That's my take on it, anyway. And these are just my opinions...I don't mean to be preachy. Sorry if it comes off that way. :)
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coolchef
imo jesus, when asked how we should pray taught us "our father" not mumbo jumbo in some silly lashanta thing
when i talk to god i know exactly what i am saying and that's the way i want it
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Jeaniam
I have no desire to start again from scratch. As I mentioned once before thirty yers ago when I signed the green card, I said I was looking for certain things and all those things I received from PFAL. I agree with you 100% sometimes arrogance prevents us from honesty, and maybe this honesty should begin with you.
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doojable
Rascal - I was just playing referee - and I was anticipating a response from you to Jean. Sorry if I offended you - I didn't mean to....
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doojable
I did it. I never looked back. It was hard because I had to deal with losing friends that I had come to count on for support - but I did it all the same and I'd do it again.
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Bolshevik
I agree but I also think it is ironic because I've seen so many in twi admit an error. It was like some game to see who could be the most humble by openly displaying they made a mistake.
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Eyesopen
I have to say that I never thought of myself in this manner. (I know you were not directing this at me) I approached the Corps as a College. They had things to teach, and I had things to learn. Much of the repetitious stuff went in one ear and out the other, (or I slept through it). But some of the history of the OT, and other basic stuff that is really hard to screw up...I learned what I could from them and did my own studying and pondering to ascertain the truth. My parents raised me to think for myself so I do. I tried not to let TWI tell me what to think. But they did heartily and happily deceive me and that makes me angry.
The point that you made that if VP had not been our "teacher" then we would not feel the need to protect him. I think that you are right. Although I am not certain why I have up until this very moment felt the need to justify what he did. I did not condone it persay but I have said "Power corrupted him" and kind of shrugged it off as a thing of the past better left forgotten and hence unexamined by myself. How deplorable of me! To those that he hurt I humbly appologize! No joke, no excuses. That "shrug" was wrong of me. Do I know that power corrupted him? No, I do not. Perhaps this is the way he was all along. I will never excuse him for those actions again. Although I will never deny what I learned from TWI I think that I will have to give myself more credit than I once did for finding the candy despite their efforts to hide it.
Rascal, thanks for bringing this subject up in this manner. You and other posters have helped open my eyes just a bit more.
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doojable
Well said, Eyesopen!
I never felt the need to defend VPW. I didn't know about his offenses until long after I left. Maybe I'm weird, but I always believed one thing - that we had to keep looking for the truth and admit when we were wrong.
How did VPW get the way he was? Whether he was born evil or became evil, or was corrupted by power - the end result was that people were hurt, used, abused, and treated like dirt. THAT is all that matters. It doesn't matter that it didn't happen to me - it happened to someone. That it was done in the name of God - shameless.
Now when people ask me about my younger years I tell them I was involved with a cult, though I didn't think so at the time. They don't look at me like I've sprouted a third eye and we move on to the next topic.
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waysider
I think we might be trying to paint with too big of a brush here.
Maybe it would be helpful to say something like:
"This is SPECIFICALLY what I thought was bad/good" and then illustrate why.
Just my opinion, says he, as he runs for cover.
Edited 'cause my speeling ain't worth a hoot anymore.
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doojable
Awwwww.... come back out and play! We ain't so bad...
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johniam
quote: I guess what I am getting at is why do we tend to consider twi and its abuses any less heinous than those suffered by folks who were part of the peoples temple or the branch dividians? Why do we not hold twi in the same contempt? People were decieved, the scriptures used to enforce the evil required.... people were hurt, people died, scriptures were used to cover it all.
Yeah, BUT...same for the catholic church. I admit that when I consider some of THEIR history, it's tempting to just write them off as an evil organization from the start. They pervert God's word, they murdered and tortured in the name of God, they even supplied TWI with 2/3 of their people. Do they admit THEY were ever wrong?
But if someone says they're catholic and that they love their church and that they believe that's where God wants them to be, then who am I to challenge that?
quote: never allow anyone to dictate how I am to walk with Jesus Christ and my Father. That's personal! That's MY business! That's MY responsibility! Remind me of the scriptures...great! Remind me of God's love...wonderful! Have fellowships around the Word...fine. But DON'T even try to tell me that you know better what God wants me to do with my life.
I agree 100%. Rascal, you cross the line here. I know you have your reasons, but you tell people how to think and what God wants them to do. You really do. That's just not going to wash.
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rascal
Hells bells, I don`t know what *I* think most of the time...it`d be pretty tough for me to tell anyone ELSE what to think... :blink: ....lol
John in me simply questioning the validity of what we are taught and the spirituality of those who taught us based on the fruit exhibited....you feel the need to brand me as a liar, pshycotic...whatever...and you feel compelled to make me out as somehow untrustworthy or having an agenda, so that my point of view will not have any merit.....
That is the point that I am trying to discuss....in your need to believe in the wholesome nature of twi, you have to brand any who have experience to the contrary as some how crazy or evil...in other words, in your need to be right, you have to trash someone else....
This was the point I was trying to make about folks who had been in cults feeling so protective of their own particular group.
Eyes, YOU get it!! You understand the concept that I was trying to articulate and just not doing a very good job at. It is mighty hard for me to give credit to or thank God for the guys who hurt so many of my brothers and sister. For in so doing, it feels like what happened to them just wasn`t a big deal.
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rascal
Great points bolshevik and listener. I agree with you chef concerning prayer.
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Jeaniam
That is just it, rascal, you have no "evidence", all you have is bunch of statements that would be called in a court of law hearsay. It is not even available to find out the whole story. No one can call VPW and ask him what his side is since he's dead.
And as far as your statement that I don't answer you on a point by point basis, I suggest you reread the PMs. Any time any one makes a point you don't have an answer for you just ignore them. I'm still waiting for an answer on whether YOU knew VPW or LCM personally as well as various other points.
BTW neither John or myself believes in the positive nature of present day twi (although I hear they're trying to clean up their act) nor do we thank God for men (and women) who abused our brothers and sisters, but I will point out again that Jesus Christ who paid the highest price of any man seemed to think the things he bled and died for to be worth the price. Any of you been scourged and nailed to a cross recently?
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doojable
Jean - if there are a lot ( A LOT ) of posters here that have their own personal experiences they posted - isn't that enough?
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rascal
Jean, you told me in your last haranguing that if I answered your pm you would have me reported. I guess I didn`t think you wanted to hear any of my answeres...shrug
The evidence is there. The stories have been told first hand by reputable posters, some of whom are my friends. I know what I personally experienced. I know that there are many who have come forth on other web sights. John L7nn among others confirmed what these girls said happened...
Somehow I still don`t think that will be good enough for you. You seem to have made up your mind that you cannot be wrong, there for, any evidence to the contrary would of necessity be a lie.
I am sorry.
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Jeaniam
No, I haven't made up my mind at all. I don't know whether it happened or not, but I am not one of the ones who has taken it upon myself to sit in judgment. Once again, I will say you don't have evidence, you have the "stories" that people told, and all you have access to is one side of the story. I also find it interesting that now when it suits you, you quote one of the "evil" WC grads. I have spoken to ordained clergy who claim it happened, and I have spoken to ordained clergy who say that if it was going on they saw no signs of it. So, I will say again that I don't believe it is possible to find out the whole truth (VPW is dead, and no one can ask him). And once again I will refer you to the post "Paid in Full".
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doojable
Isn't it possible that both sets of ordained clergy can be right? These two sets of people aren't mutually exclusive. It is entirely possible that the "evil deeds" happened and some saw and others didn't.
I know in my life that I had things happen to me that were a direct result of how VPW taught his minions to act.
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WordWolf
Incorrect.
They would be called eyewitness accounts and witness testimony.
This is considered superior evidence to all other forms,
which legally are considered circumstantial.
Any attorney could tell you he could make or break any case
based on the eyewitness testimony.
All the circumstantial evidence in the world can't beat enough
eyewitness testimony.
However,when he WAS alive, he had a circle of people who appear to have contrived
to set up women to meet him alone,
a PLACE to meet them alone- with a bed,
people to "exit counsel" them and see if they looked like they'd talk to someone like the police,
and when women looked like they WOULD talk,
they were rushed off-grounds and everyone was told they were "possessed" and not to
talk to them.
Before the internet, it was a LOT harder to tell your story.
Plus, vpw had succeeded in making a public image that lent credibility to anything he said,
and he cashed in that currency when he said to ignore them.
This is why I address people in public here. There's less "he-said, she-said" involved.
Ah, it sounded like you were claiming there WAS no abuse.Which was it?
Non-issue, if it means supposed leaders get a free pass and carte blanche to rape, drug, or otherwise
abuse anyone for whom Christ died.
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WordWolf
You've already sat in judgement on those who've examined direct testimony.
Actually, we have testimony from some of those who came forth and admitted they knew thiswas going on, and they buried it, as well.
There's a complete picture painted here.
The physical evidence shows that vpw had arranged for places to meet women privately.
There are people who say they're aware vpw was cheating on his wife with young believers,
which by itself was an abuse of his office and trust, even had that all been consentual.
We have people who've said they've encountered women right after they claimed they were
raped by vpw or that vpw seemed ready to rape them.
We have people who are aware of the "exit counselors" and the network covering vpw's tracks.
We have victim accounts-all of which harmonize- that they were told similar or identical raps.
We have victim testimony that vpw had their "From Birth to the Corps" paper in their hand,
and he claimed their past sexual trauma could be healed by sex from a real man of God,
as he put his moves on them.
We have victim testimony that some were drugged into unconsciousness, which skips
a few steps there.
We have eyewitness testimony that vpw had sent for someone, and when that woman
arrived, he was completely unclothed.
And-unless you are ready to call Jim D. a liar,
we have a witness who said that all the way back at the House of Acts,
vpw was interested in what orgies were like, and vpw volunteered that they were
permitted by God Almighty, complete with the verse used to permit it.
Now, if we had all this in a court of law,
the civil case would be a breeze,
and I think a criminal suit-with its higher criteria for a conviction-
would be a strong enough case that vpw would be desperate to get out of it.
The combination of "the lockbox" (vpw had a doctrine he taught his cadre that
instilled a code of silence-complete with a NAME),
his well-crafted public image,
his well-crafted and well-orchestrated criminal enterprise
(I mean the components of his rape machine, from before to after),
and the lack of communication before the internet,
allowed vpw a "freedom" he would not have today.
lcm was caught because
A) he didn't have as well-crafted a public image, so he could be questioned
B) he thought he wasn't doing wrong, so he didn't orchestrate so well to cover his tracks
C) communication after 1985 has improved drastically over the years,
allowing witnesses and victims to communicate
vpw knew he did wrong, and did everything possible to cover his tracks short of
murder, but even what he did, if done during the internet age, would have
eventually been caught.
On 9/11,
many people saw the planes hit, and the buildings damaged and collapsed.
Many people only know about this from video footage and news reports.
So, some claim it happened, and some saw no signs of it on their own.
That's why you even have some people to this day who claim there were no planes.
(I know someone who saw one plane hit, and told me ON 9/11.)
Testimony that some people didn't see something is not considered
"proof it didn't happen" by any reputable investigator, attorney or judge.
And if vpw was still alive, and insisted he was completely innocent and is being framed,
would you say "Well, that's it, he's being framed", and turn away?
I'll save you some time-he never admitted to anything, not even a lie when caught with proof he lied-
he always went to the next lie in line.
So, he'd SAY "I'm innocent, they're lying, I didn't do it."
The prisons of the US are FULL of people who claim they're 100% innocent, even with overwhelming
evidence they did it.
Death Row's got people who swear they didn't do it.
There's criminals who say they didn't do it when videotaped evidence shows them doing it.
Asking vpw would tell us little.
When he was alive, he silenced critics before they had a chance to speak.
That's clever, effective, efficient,
and shows PREMEDITATION
and AWARENESS THAT HE WAS DOING WRONG.
We know full well how he responded when alive.
He did such a good job that people to this day can face his victims and say
"You're lying."
Did Jesus pay the price for vpw's sins?
Yes, and that's STILL a non-issue,
unless you're saying what he did was completely excusable.
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another spot
"EDITOR'S STATEMENT ON SPECTACULAR SEX STORIES
We hesitate to publish stories people (especially women) send us in which they claim that Way leaders were involved in sexual promiscuity, which sometimes included rape, inducement, abuse of power and drugs. We also hesitate to publish anonymous stories or articles, and stories of other spectacular claims such as stockpiling weapons..
There are several reasons we shy away from publishing these stories. First, we don't want to publish any false stories. We don't publish any known lies or falsehoods, even if we think it may help attain a healthy result (like people leaving TWI). Over the years, we believe we've built a reputation of integrity, documenting our information and being careful not to exaggerate. We don't want to damage our integrity by publishing things that seem spectacularly false.
From the practical standpoint, we don't need to make up serious errors in TWI-- there are so many true errors that we don't need to! We would like to collaborate all facts in stories people tell, although that isn't possible, especially since sexual sin is most often a private affair, known only to the perpetrator and the victim.
However, we have chosen to publish a few of the stories we've received, for the following reasons.
First, we have heard so many such stories from so many people spread across the country, that it becomes apparent that it isn't just a crazy person here and there who is making them up. The stories are similar in many ways, which implies a "typical" approach among Way leaders. They also report similar "reasoning" leaders used to defend their sinful actions. The most comprehensive example of this is the appendix of John Schoenheit's paper on adultery which offers a long list of "Biblical reasons" leaders used to defend sexual promiscuity.
Second, we have had a lot of private correspondence with those who wrote the letters we published, and with scores more who do not wish to publish their stories. We don't find that there are scores of women who are dying to get vengeance by printing false stories of being used sexually by leadership. Instead, scores of ex-Wayers come to us with their stories who don't want to face the inner embarrassment of publically describing what happened to them. Most readers would be overwhelmed if they were able to read all the correspondence we've received over the last 20 years from ex-Wayers about sexual indiscretions in TWI (especially among the Corps). It's a traumatic thing for women to write about the tragic things which have happened to them, because it invokes shame and guilt-- both guilt of submitting to leaders and the invalid guilt many people have when they'd been overwhelmed and abused by others.
Third, secrecy protects the perpetrators who used and abused others (especially male leaders who abused females). They want us all to be silent, because they don't want their evil deeds and crimes to become known. So we have a responsibility to speak out in order to heal the victims and help protect those who may become victims in the future.
Fourth, there are indications that certain past and present leaders in TWI are not people of substantial integrity. There is evidence of authoritarianism, greed, plagiarism, defensiveness, manipulation, and abuse of Scripture for selfish purposes. Sexual indiscretions would not be surprising in people who have this type of character.
Over the years, thousands of followers have left TWI mainly because sexual sin was practiced and defended by Way leadership on many levels. We invite other readers to submit their stories, or to confirm the stories we have published, in order to make clear that sexual error has been, and still is, a serious problem in TWI.
John P. Juedes, 1999 www.empirenet.com/~messiah7 "
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johniam
quote: John in me simply questioning the validity of what we are taught and the spirituality of those who taught us based on the fruit exhibited....you feel the need to brand me as a liar, pshycotic...whatever...and you feel compelled to make me out as somehow untrustworthy or having an agenda, so that my point of view will not have any merit.....
That is the point that I am trying to discuss....in your need to believe in the wholesome nature of twi, you have to brand any who have experience to the contrary as some how crazy or evil...in other words, in your need to be right, you have to trash someone else....
This was the point I was trying to make about folks who had been in cults feeling so protective of their own particular group.
No, Rascal, you're wrong. My belief system is not based on men, though men taught it to me. The reason I still believe TWI doctrine is because IT WORKS!!!!! It worked in 1977 when I first took foundational PFAL and it works now. The issues I have with TWI are because of what people have done. This is separate from what God has done. You appear incapable of understanding this. You accuse me of having the need to lash out in order to validate what I believe, yet it is YOU who does that very thing.
I am capable of separating what men do from what God has done. You are willing to delete everything Christ accomplished for mankind and "start over from scratch" because of what men have done. Gee, if I'm going to start over from scratch, then do I need to reinvent the wheel, too? If I am capable of separating what God has done from what men have done, then so is God.
Jean referred to the "post paid in full". It's actually a thread in the open forum. It illustrates that Jesus the Christ paid in full for all our sins once we accept him. When I read Wordwolf's posts I can't help imagine what Satan the "prosecutor" will attempt to do in accusing God's people of all manner of sin "day and night before our God". The word says God shall wipe all tears from the eyes of His people...no more death, sorrow, crying, etc. It's GOING to happen. Not in this life, but it's GOING to happen.
Rascal, I don't try to appease you because all your rage is not going to make you any more peaceful. Even if every single poster on GSC sent you posts or PMs thanking you for "making them see the light" it wouldn't make you any more peaceful. You're tore up inside. You need an anchor of the soul. You have Xed out that hope because VP taught it to you. VP was only the sales rep; God's the manufacturer. Unlimited warranty. Sales reps can be fired, or die. VP didn't die for your sins. VP isn't the author of salvation. You need to humble yourself and ask God to pull you out of the whirlwind you're in.
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Jeaniam
Not without VPW's presence in court they wouldn't. If the defendant is dead there is no court case.
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doojable
OK - Time out here.
One of the worst things that happened in TWI - by men and women - was people telling other people what was wrong with them. As if God himself had given a word of insight and now it was the duty of the "friend" to inform the other person what he saw. As I recall - Job referred to this type of person as a "miserable comforter." I'd say that when you can form planets and put them in the sky and make the oceans roar and the winds blow - then you can speak about what you see in another's life as if it God-breathed. In the meantime, I'd suggest softening the tone and allowing for your own error as to how you are interpreting the motives of the person in question.
I shudder with disgust whenever I hear someone giving another person "insight" into their soul.
John - you wrote"
"Rascal, I don't try to appease you because all your rage is not going to make you any more peaceful. Even if every single poster on GSC sent you posts or PMs thanking you for "making them see the light" it wouldn't make you any more peaceful. You're tore up inside. You need an anchor of the soul. You have Xed out that hope because VP taught it to you. VP was only the sales rep; God's the manufacturer. Unlimited warranty. Sales reps can be fired, or die. VP didn't die for your sins. VP isn't the author of salvation. You need to humble yourself and ask God to pull you out of the whirlwind you're in."
I'd be a lot more comfortable if you had at least left some room for your human error or possible misinterpretation of Rascal's "innerworkings" so to speak.
I notice that Rascal says things like "it seems that," or "somehow I don't think." At least she appears to be leaving some room for error.
I find it difficult to believe that this discussion will end up producing anything other than a p(ssing match.
Jean - there are many more defendants that were produced by TWI.
BTW - while the person could not stand trial - the proof could still be made in court as to the guilt or innocence of a defendant that has died.
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