Does twi need to be good?

[rascal]

Thank you word wolf for the information presented in a succinct manner.

Another spot, thank you for that link, that place is where I read some of the most horrific stories...I know folks who know at least one of the ladies who wrote. I had read it before, but didn`t know how to paste over to here.

John, I don`t argue that God worked. I think however that he worked in spite of how bad things were....just because he worked within the frame work that we gave him access, you feel that twi/you are right.

It is no different that the other folks that I talked about. They learned scripture, they think that they recieved deliverance, that they saw God work, hey their group wasn`t so bad.

The debauchery, the lives shattered, the death all gives evidence to the contrary.

As far as your evaluation of me, my mental state, my spiritual health and my peac of mind, I can only say that you are mistaken, but thankyou for your concern.

[Listener]

quote: My belief system is not based on men, though men taught it to me. The reason I still believe TWI doctrine is because IT WORKS!!!!! It worked in 1977 when I first took foundational PFAL and it works now. The issues I have with TWI are because of what people have done. This is separate from what God has done. You appear incapable of understanding this. You accuse me of having the need to lash out in order to validate what I believe, yet it is YOU who does that very thing.

Johniam, you say men taught you your belief system, but yet it's not based on men. How can you be so sure that these men taught you correctly? Could you elaborate on how TWI doctrine works? I ask because I've believe that some of their core doctrinal teachings are quite flawed. Maybe you only accepted the ones that worked, and discarded the rest. I don't know. I'm just very curious about your statements and would like to hear some examples of what worked for you, and why.

[rascal]

Dooj, thankyou. Don`t underestimate our ability to stay on track in spite of detours here and there. I think some awsome ground is being covered. People are all contributing missing pieces of the puzzle so that we can get a greater idea of the entire picture.

It is a good thing :)

Edited March 30, 2007 by rascal

[Jeaniam]

Well, let's take a good look at the Bible then and see who lived a less than exemplary life. Adam committed the first sin, he should be gone. Cain committed the first murder-out. Moses killed someone-out. Saul was a devil worshipper and attempted murderer-out. David was an adulterer and murderer-there go big chunks of Kings and Chronicles, all of Psalms etc. Solomon was a bigamist- there goes Proverbs and Song of Solomon. Moving on to the New Testament, Peter denied Christ several times-he's gone. Judas Iscariot- well how low can you go? The apostle Paul murdered believers- there goes most of the book of Acts, the epistles (church and otherwise). Therefore we should be humble enough to concede that nothing they wrote is of any value and we should start over from scratch and rewrite the Bible from our independent (and no doubt pure) revelation. Good luck, send me a copy when you're done.

[Listener]

Johniam, are you now saying that TWI's doctrines are just as "God breathed" as the rest of the Word of God because vp taught them?

[Jeaniam]

Isn't it possible that both sets of ordained clergy can be right? These two sets of people aren't mutually exclusive. It is entirely possible that the "evil deeds" happened and some saw and others didn't.

I know in my life that I had things happen to me that were a direct result of how VPW taught his minions to act.

I don't know and I am still not going to take it upon myself to sit in judgment. In the areas I personally was in I had leaders who were adamant on the rule that pre-marital sex was not a really good idea, and extra-marital sex was a worse one. Yes, before I was married I had men who made passes at me; some pretty enthusiastic ones but there was no one who didn't back off when I said "No" and I only ever had to say it once.

[doojable]

It's not necessary to sit in judgement in order to exercise judgement. We are allowed to withold our trust until it is earned.

We are supposed to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

[Jeaniam]

This is johniam; forgot to switch, sorry about that.

quote:

I notice that Rascal says things like "it seems that," or "somehow I don't think." At least she appears to be leaving some room for error.

Yes, but she also says stuff like...

quote: lets not examine the fruit of the spirit that will identify whether our leader are of the flesh or of the spirit TOO closely because we really don`t want to KNOW what the source of their power was...geeze ..it just isn`t honest.

...and...

quote: I think that sometimes arrogance prevents us from honesty.

...clearly implying that a) the TWI leaders were from the devil, and b) posters like me are arrogant and dishonest. She leaves no room for human error; she's RIGHT, and ANY disagreement is WRONG!

Yes, my post was judgemental, but at least I left room for Rascal to do better, plus, that IS what I think is going on with her. So, in reality, I'M the one who's being honest.

Edited March 30, 2007 by Jeaniam

[Abigail]

Not without VPW's presence in court they wouldn't. If the defendant is dead there is no court case.

If the defendant is dead there may no longer be a criminal case. but there most certainly can be a civil case against the estate.

[johniam]

The last post by jeaniam was me. I forgot to switch. Sorry about that.

quote: Johniam, you say men taught you your belief system, but yet it's not based on men. How can you be so sure that these men taught you correctly? Could you elaborate on how TWI doctrine works? I ask because I've believe that some of their core doctrinal teachings are quite flawed. Maybe you only accepted the ones that worked, and discarded the rest. I don't know. I'm just very curious about your statements and would like to hear some examples of what worked for you, and why

The following is a portion of a post I did on a thread called THE LAW OF BELIEVING which is currently on p.3 of this forum.

quote: I think some people have this religious idea that it's not right to ask God for personal things like red drapes. At the '79 ROA VP said a local minister told him he's be ashamed to ask God for the things VP asks God for. VP came back with "if my God was as small as yours I'd think of getting me a new one".

Once I was hitching from Columbia, MO to Fresno, CA. An all night ride got me to Amarillo, TX, still 1000 miles from my destination. So I freshened up in an IHOP and went out to the freeway. Having heard horror stories about police treatment of hitchers in Amarillo, I prayed with Jonathan in mind, God, if YOU are the one getting me the ride, then YOU could get me a ride all the way to Fresno just as easily as YOU could get me a ride 2 miles down the road, so THAT'S what I want, in the name of JC, amen.

One hour later a van picked me up, 2 guys from Kansas. They were going to both LA and San Francisco, but were planning to go to LA first, which would have had them drop me off in Barstow, right in the middle of Death Valley. But they picked up 3 more hitchers in New Mexico who were more annoying than me, apparently. They decided to go to SF first dropping them off in Barstow and taking me one block away from where I was going in Fresno. Sounds like red drapes to me.

In 1998 I lived in a house which had a motion detector porch light; you couldn't just turn it on and have it stay on/you had to be fairly close to the house before the porch light would come on. It was like that when we moved in. On halloween night nobody came trick or treating to our house because of this. My then 9 yr old daughter was upset and cried. I asked her to pray about it while I SIT. It was 9:30 by then and not much activity, so after 10 minutes of waiting we went inside. Not 5 minutes later somebody not only walked up to the house, but even with no light on (you could turn off the porch light so it wouldn't go on at all) they really made sure nobody was home. It caught us off guard but I called my daughter down and handed her the bowl of candy and she went outside and gave 'em candy. Then she accused me of calling somebody and staging it. (sigh) But that, too, sounds like red drapes, doesn't it.

I related this incident before and one GSer ridiculed me. My answer is the same as VPs to the local minister.

Listener, this is just the tip of the iceberg. God's real and He DOES answer prayer, not based on your goodness, but on your believing. I'm not telling God what to do, I'm acting on what God already told me I COULD do.

[FullCircle]

I had been reading this thread and have jumped in many times only to hit the back button and erased my response.

I am going to post now to say what I have to say. I am saying for those who may not know how and why many of us have come to the conclusions we have. Or at least how I came to my conclusions.

Pawtucket or moderators, if I say anything or better yet, phrase anything wrong that can get Greasespot into trouble, please moderate my post to make it read correctly.

So there I was back in the 1980's. I had heard from my WOW sister whose fiance was 12th Corps that there was a big shake up in leadership. This is specifically in the year of 1985 (after VP died) to 1986. But we can get no details as it was supposed to be big, a lot of fighting.

The ROA at 1986 sucked big time. People were upset, mostly Corps (I stayed in the ladies Corps tent that ROA) and were surly and some couldn't look you in the eye when I spoke about how great God's Word and God's MInistry was. I must have looked like a babbling idiot.

I had no idea then that the Passing of the Patriarch had been read to the clergy by CG. I had no idea until I listened to tapes a couple of years later by JL and other ex-twi leadership that supposedly CG called the clergy in from all over, read them this paper, that he had packed a gun in his suit when he went in to the meeting and accused everyone of being possessed or that all of the clergy counseled with and asked advice from were possessed and passed some pronouncement that like 95% of the ministry was possessed. Not my words. Oh yes, also, any one who read JS paper was possessed because it was akin to accepting the trinity. JS paper was about adultery and why it was not biblical for a man nowadays to have more than one wife, the body the church represented by the marriage.

So no wonder people were a little down in the mouth.

I went back home, married and had a child while all the while rumours were spreading about adulteries, sex scandals and so forth. The best way to get blackballed was to speak to any one who left the ministry at this time.

Leaders who quit, who were escorted off TWI grounds for daring to confront LCM about his legacy learned from VP in using girls for sexual reasons, NOT MY WORDS, were making the rounds and telling people what had really been going on in TWI and how the leadership in TWI were NOT changing or even showing remorse for it. Again, not my words but the words of people like JL and RD.

So if any think that the 'stories' that are circulating now, that are published on Empire.net are nothing but the words of females making up stories or trying to get even with a dead guy, you are totally misled. The ONLY way these females, YOUR sisters in Christ received any creedence to their words and what happened to them IS because leadership came forward and stated that it was true. Ex twi leadership EVEN spoke about the possibility of them being drugged and being used sexually against their will. Until then, some had come forward or gone to their friends with what happened to them and they were regarded as crazy and possessed. So it's not like anyone didn't come forward when VP was alive. They did and they were blackballed from the ministry by leadership so that no one would talk to them and believe them.

So the fog years, which LCM refers to them were not foggy. It was pretty clear in black and white what had been going on and that nothing was going to change. Those years were more like the coverup years.

LCM and CG fought for control of the ministry and finally in 1989 an edict went out from LCM basically stating that you either stand with me or CG. Many many many clergy were fired when they stated they stood with God.

So they you have the history in a nut shell.

Believe what you want and why you want to. Know though that this alleged behavior was confronted by other TWI leadership who left in disgust, as per their words or were fired because they spoke up against it. We all need to decide what we can tolerate in life, what we can live with and what we will learn and WHOM we chose to learn it from.

Edited March 30, 2007 by FullCircle

[Sunesis]

Jean, why do you have such a hard-on for Rascal?

What has she ever done to you?

Why are you so up in arms because someone has a differing opinion?

You come across as an angry, self-righteous, bible-thumping pharisee.

Really, you just dog her everywhere. What's up with that?

Edited March 30, 2007 by Sunesis

[johniam]

Jean, why do you have such a hard-on for Rascal?

What has she ever done to you?

Why are you so up in arms because someone has a differing opinion?

You come across as an angry, self-righteous, bible-thumping pharisee.

Really, you just dog her everywhere. What's up with that?

She's sticking up for me, mostly. Plus Rascal "dogged" her in PMs, several of them. IMO if jean's a collie then Rascal's a pit bull. Hard on??? That's brutal. Do YOU get hard ons for women? Hmm.

Edited March 30, 2007 by johniam

[WordWolf]

Jean, apparently, is Mrs Johniam.

I can't speak to her experience, but Johniam has had some good experiences in twi.

So have I.

Johniam has heard that while he was having some good experiences in twi,

some others-mostly women- were having horrific times.

So have I.

Johniam has addressed this discrepancy by concluding that those other experiences

tarnish his memories of twi and impede his sense of nostalgia and

"the good old days".

So have I.

Johniam's response has been to try to get those other experiences silenced, and

excuse vpw and others for committing evil acts, to assuage the guilt they incurred

when committing crimes and evil acts against the brethren, for whom Christ died.

That's different from my response. I prefer the whole story be told.

I can face having had good experiences in twi while simultaneously acknowledging

that vpw was a dishonest rapist who constructed his image in great detail to inculcate

respect, reverence and obedience,

and used that to enjoy privilege, feed vices, and rape women,

and constructed a framework that allowed him to get away with raping women.

Does all that invalidate my experiences? It does not.

The many evils he performed don't erase what good I received.

However, the good I received does not affect the evil that others received,

and in some cases was-and is- used as a cloak to hide or excuse that evil.

It's something to consider-

for most of us.

It's something to remember-

for most of us.

It's something to be ashamed of-

for the few of us who performed those actions, facilitating rapes.

It's something to flee-

for those of us who can't face the WHOLE truth.

[doojable]

John - you quoted Rascal:

quote: I think that sometimes arrogance prevents us from honesty.

She said, "I think.." and "somtimes..." These words left some room for Rascal to say that perhaps she was mistaken. She voiced her opinion. Her opinion left room for a set of circumstances to not always be the case. She did not say "John your arrogant and dishonest."

For me it all comes down to this:

Does all of what we learned need to be correct?

I don't think so.

Do all the leaders need to have been perfect?

Again - I'm saying, "No."

But - were there indescrepencies in doctrine that lead to vile offensive practices? Yes!

Perhaps now comes the hardest question of all:

Can I live with the fact that each person will deal with the wrong doctrine and wrong practices differently? I'm prone to answer, "Yes!"

Isn't it time to "agree to disagree" and move on?

Edited March 30, 2007 by doojable

[Bolshevik]

This was the point I was trying to make about folks who had been in cults feeling so protective of their own particular group.

No, Rascal, you're wrong. My belief system is not based on men, though men taught it to me. The reason I still believe TWI doctrine is because IT WORKS!!!!! It worked in 1977 when I first took foundational PFAL and it works now. The issues I have with TWI are because of what people have done. This is separate from what God has done. You appear incapable of understanding this. You accuse me of having the need to lash out in order to validate what I believe, yet it is YOU who does that very thing.

If you mean the doctrine slowly sucks every ounce of vitality and joy from your gut, making the hope something to be feared, and causing you to mentally snarl at the loving God Almighty. . . unless of course you've become a mindless wayferbrain goon,

Then yes, TWI's doctrine works.

[Eyesopen]

Hard on??? That's brutal. Do YOU get hard ons for women? Hmm.

Please, she used a figure of speech to ask a question. Must it become a personal attack?

Can we not just answer the questions and discuss our differences as adults. Without all of this name calling and accusing?

WW and dooj- your words are wise

[rascal]

Just to clarify, I never ever said anything ugly to jeaniam in private messages. I simply replied honestly to the questions that she asked. I did not initiate contact nor did I continue to answere her.... (ignoring the name calling and allegations entirely)....after she told me to never contact her again. I do not know how to paste pm`s, or I would in self defense..

I said nothing that I did not say right here in the open, I spoke carefully with much thought, and with all of the love and tact that I could muster.

I KNOW this is a lot to digest, I know that it is difficult to believe that people we loved and trusted could have betrayed us so.

It is much easier to believe that the folks presenting the other side of the stories are lying so as not to have to re evaluate ones entire spiritual understanding. I have nothing but compassion in my heart when exploring these issues and coming to grips with what happened.

I have tried to ignore the slams because I do not want this thread to end up in the soap opera forum. I don`t mind.

I do not care what I am called, but I want folks to know that I was not ugly to anybody in public or private.

Edited March 30, 2007 by rascal

[Jeaniam]

It's not necessary to sit in judgement in order to exercise judgement. We are allowed to withold our trust until it is earned.

We are supposed to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

Well, I guess you can withhold your trust from VPW (who is the only one I'm discussing here) but I'm not sure I see the point since as I have said repeatedly; he's dead and has been for more than twenty years.

[Jeaniam]

If the defendant is dead there may no longer be a criminal case. but there most certainly can be a civil case against the estate.

And as far as I know there never has been one and I imagine the statute of limitations has long since expired.

[Eyesopen]

Just to clarify, I never ever said anything ugly to jeaniam in private messages. I simply replied honestly to the questions that she asked. I did not initiate contact nor did I continue to answere her.... (ignoring the name calling and allegations entirely)....after she told me to never contact her again. I do not know how to paste pm`s, or I would in self defense..

I said nothing that I did not say right here in the open, I spoke carefully with much thought, and with all of the love and tact that I could muster.

I KNOW this is a lot to digest, I know that it is difficult to believe that people we loved and trusted could have betrayed us so.

It is much easier to believe that the folks presenting the other side of the stories are lying so as not to have to re evaluate ones entire spiritual understanding. I have nothing but compassion in my heart when exploring these issues and coming to grips with what happened.

I have tried to ignore the slams because I do not want this thread to end up in the soap opera forum. I don`t mind.

I do not care what I am called, but I want folks to know that I was not ugly to anybody in public or private.

I personally have not seen anything in your posts that suggested otherwise. So based on that admittedly incomplete information I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you had mirrored that same behavour in any PM that you had sent. If my post sounded like It was directed at you it was unintenional.

I suppose the best thing for me to say concerning my most recent post is "if the shoe fits, wear it".

[Jeaniam]

Dooj, thankyou. Don`t underestimate our ability to stay on track in spite of detours here and there. I think some awsome ground is being covered. People are all contributing missing pieces of the puzzle so that we can get a greater idea of the entire picture.

It is a good thing :)

I don't think you really want to get the entire picture, just enough negatives to justify what you have already made up your mind to believe. The entire picture is not available. Since one of the main alleged participants is dead there will always be a missing piece in the picture.

[rascal]

Full circle, thanks for sharing your pieces of the puzzle. Your account dovetails in with what others have shared of their experiences.

Bolshevik, I agree about the doctrine sucking the joy out of life. It was only in starting from scratch did I start seeing the hand of God again. Some of the stuff I retained as of value, most was discarded as I learned the greater law of love.

I am not saying our experiences weren`t enjoyable, or that we didn`t learn something of merit...we did, I am not denying that. But then again....neither do the surviving davidians or temples gate folks...heck there are still folks following the stargate (I think was their names) even after the comet went by and their fellow cult members suicided. Everyone seems to have excuses why the death or theft was ok. (I don`t think any of them had the legacy of debauchery that ours did)

Everyone is still very protective of the group that they invested so much time and heart into. People seem to need to make it some how ok...they are passionate in their defense of their lifes choices...whether it makes sense in hind sight or not....

Anybody that thinks otherwise is some how ignorant or not spiritually sophisticated enough to handle it...etc

I really don`t think we have anything on these guys as far as being spiritual and right.

I think that in honestly being able to understand what was right and what was wrong, is the only way to begin healing from some of the more destructive thought processes.

Edited March 30, 2007 by rascal

[Jeaniam]

Just to clarify, I never ever said anything ugly to jeaniam in private messages. I simply replied honestly to the questions that she asked. I did not initiate contact nor did I continue to answere her.... (ignoring the name calling and allegations entirely)....after she told me to never contact her again. I do not know how to paste pm`s, or I would in self defense..

I said nothing that I did not say right here in the open, I spoke carefully with much thought, and with all of the love and tact that I could muster.

I KNOW this is a lot to digest, I know that it is difficult to believe that people we loved and trusted could have betrayed us so.

It is much easier to believe that the folks presenting the other side of the stories are lying so as not to have to re evaluate ones entire spiritual understanding. I have nothing but compassion in my heart when exploring these issues and coming to grips with what happened.

I have tried to ignore the slams because I do not want this thread to end up in the soap opera forum. I don`t mind.

I do not care what I am called, but I want folks to know that I was not ugly to anybody in public or private.

No, you just claimed that the miniscule bit that you know of John's personality should outweigh the twenty years of love, kindness, and loyalty that he and I have shared, and told me that I nneded to look beneath the surface and find out "the whole story". I am in possession of far more of the story than you are and have seen all of what lies beneath the surface. Possibly you need to look beneath the surface and find out the whole story, not just what backs up what you have already decided to believe.

[rascal]

Thankyou Eyes, I wasn`t responding to you, but felt I needed to be crystal clear in light of the repeated allegations that I had been ugly in pm`s.

Go back and re read jean, I never said that ever. It would be quite a foolish assumption on my part. This thread is not about that...if you would like to address pm`s do it there please. This thread is about why people need twi to be ok.

Edited March 30, 2007 by rascal