In CES's defense

[Lone Wolf McQuade]

In CES's Defense...

It’s been a couple of years since I have posted and wanted to drop by and say hello in light of everything going on at CES.

I've been out of the Way for oh.....about 7 years now. I, like so many others, was quite disappointed, not really knowing where to turn next. About a year after leaving twi, a friend of mine introduced me to CES and their materials. I was given a copy of their book One God & One Lord. I was VERY impressed. I soon started receiving their monthly tapes and have listened to and read pretty much everything they have to offer.

Again, I would say that overall I am VERY impressed with the doctrine they are producing. Yes, I have read everything on this site regarding the "personal prophecy" shinanagins (is that how you spell that?). It is unfortunate. But once again we see what happens when organizations form. Personal conflicts and opinions are going to clash whenever you put 2 or more people together. So what's new? Even Paul and Barnabas argued so intensely they went separate ways in life. :( Do you think they spoke personal prophecies against one another????…hmmm…doubtful.

So if they have the personal prophecy not quite right, ok, I at least applaud them for the courage to step out on something new and learn something different because it's obvious that twi's manifestation of prophecy was not the great mark of a "spiritually mature" individual. But that's what the Word says it's supposed to be. Since we don't have the Apostle Paul here to demonstrate, I guess we have to keep trying until we figure it out. The Word does command to earnestly desire prophecy.

Contrast this with what I have seen going on at CFF over the past 7 years. It's just the same old stuff. Twi all over-again with the same boring faces, same old doctrine, same old uninspring manifestations, same old "MOG-Rev." crap...oh, and of course, we can't forget about the tithe! At least when CES puts out a monthly tape it makes me genuinely think about the Word on a much deeper level, spiritually and philosophically...instead of the same old law of believing, sonship rights, blah blah blah. At least CES is venturing out, trying to bring a logical conclusion to many unanswered questions left by twi's doctrine. I have found that for the most part, CES’s doctrine is very “mentally satisfying”. Anyway, that's just my opinion. :-)

CES is going to have their troubles just like any other organized ministry. It's the nature of the beast. But if I may say, I have listened to every teaching available by John Schoenheit and spoken with him on various occasions, and ya know, you're going to have a hard time convincing me that he does not have a genuine heart for God and people. His ministry as a teacher and his love for the scripture seems pretty apparent to me. Again, that's just my opinion. :-)

I think CES’s big mistake was leaving their “think tank” status and changing to a “full-service ministry”. Because everytime people start forming into these groups..eventually, calamity strikes, and here it is. It is disappointing indeed.

Love you all!

LoneWolf

P.S. No, I am not a member of CES nor do I promote their class or attend one of their fellowships.

[Bolshevik]

So. . . As a ministry. . .Is CES admitting they've screwed up?

[Lone Wolf McQuade]

So. . . As a ministry. . .Is CES admitting they've screwed up?

As to what is admitted, I don't know. Because I'm not a member, it's impossible to really know what's going on. Everything is "he said-she said". That's why I feel you don't get involved with organizations. As Christians, we follow God and His Son Jesus Christ and if you can find a group of believers that can share what they know and add to your learning...great! But take it for what it is, a group teaching you what they feel they have learned. That way, when trouble like this happens, if need be, you can walk away quietly, continuing to seek the Lord and His truth instead of having your whole world crumble because you put your trust in men and not God.

LoneWolf

[Bolshevik]

Are there CES members at GS?

We all still need fellowship with others.

I just thought if there were a ministry of people were as a ministry they could say "Hey, we thought this might work, it doesn't seem too, we need to try something else." Without using most of their time to praise the Board of Directors or whatever. You now, actually being a dynamic church.

[Listener]

That's why I feel you don't get involved with organizations. As Christians, we follow God and His Son Jesus Christ and if you can find a group of believers that can share what they know and add to your learning...great! But take it for what it is, a group teaching you what they feel they have learned. That way, when trouble like this happens, if need be, you can walk away quietly, continuing to seek the Lord and His truth instead of having your whole world crumble because you put your trust in men and not God.

LoneWolf

I liked that. I've had my fill of organized this and organized that. And, i will admit that finding truth is a challenge worth persuing. But one must do the work of searching in order to find it. Organizations, IMHO, are attractive because they offer the "truth" all packaged up for me, nice and neat, so I don't have to look very far, or even use my brain!! Thinking for myself, then, becomes unnecessary....and therein lies the trap!

There's always someone willing to tell you what to think. <_<

[gladtobeout]

As to what is admitted, I don't know. Because I'm not a member, it's impossible to really know what's going on. Everything is "he said-she said". That's why I feel you don't get involved with organizations. As Christians, we follow God and His Son Jesus Christ and if you can find a group of believers that can share what they know and add to your learning...great! But take it for what it is, a group teaching you what they feel they have learned. That way, when trouble like this happens, if need be, you can walk away quietly, continuing to seek the Lord and His truth instead of having your whole world crumble because you put your trust in men and not God.

LoneWolf

Nicely put! Thanks for sharing Lone Wolf McQuade.

[Bolshevik]

I liked that. I've had my fill of organized this and organized that. And, i will admit that finding truth is a challenge worth persuing. But one must do the work of searching in order to find it. Organizations, IMHO, are attractive because they offer the "truth" all packaged up for me, nice and neat, so I don't have to look very far, or even use my brain!! Thinking for myself, then, becomes unnecessary....and therein lies the trap!

There's always someone willing to tell you what to think. <_<

Are churches themselves organizations? (I've only ever been a part of twi) I just think of churches as places for christians to gather for fellowship and to be reminded of the bible's teachings. People need to gather to support each other. Do christians get together without some demonitation or organization playing a part? Even greasespot has administrators. (I'm not arguing, just asking)

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Lone Wolf...I suppose the question that many of us have is whether or not they are really sincere in their goals of Christian service...or if they are merely trying to develope an institution that places them in a position to feed their egos and "tap into" the financial benefits afforded them...

If someone feels "spiritually inclined" to share their biblical insight...fine, but personally, I've had a belly full of those who are looking to control the lives of their followers...and I have seen CES do this...firsthand.

Why is it that many of these former twi "leaders" always have a "mission" from God that places THEM on the stage and in the spotlight?...

[excathedra]

I at least applaud them for the courage to step o

i'd like to see them and every other offshoot "leader" step out and get real jobs

[blarney]

Why is it that many of these former twi "leaders" always have a "mission" from God that places THEM on the stage and in the spotlight?...

Groucho,

I think that is what makes them uniquely unqualified. I have always had the impression that they are only interested in their agenda.

For me, personally, not having an agenda is very freeing. I don't feel the need to invite, convince, or pressure. I simply enjoy the moment with people, and if God comes up, fine. If the subject of God doesn't come up, fine. And I think that God is just fine with that.

Now that I don't have an agenda, I'm particularly sensitive when people do. It just sounds like noise.

My $.02

Blarney

[TheHighWay]

Lone Wolf, I appreciated what you said, but honestly, did you have to put down some other organization in the process?

To each his own.

[Ham]

Personal conflicts and opinions are going to clash whenever you put 2 or more people together.

What's even worse, those who are in conflict are PERMANENT "shareholders" in the organization.

Can't vote them out to put them out of their misery, so to speak..

[Lone Wolf McQuade]

Lone Wolf, I appreciated what you said, but honestly, did you have to put down some other organization in the process?

To each his own.

TheHighway,

Well, it's just an honest evaluation from personal experience. And since CFF is also an off shoot, I feel it was fair to throw my two cents in regarding their efforts.

Everyone talks about VPW being a plagarist. Take a browse through CFF's website and tell me they did not take every bit of jargon from VPW/TWI and carry it right over into their own group. All that "great leadership", all that "great education" all those years of "working the Word" and they can't come up with anything on their own or any "new light"?

I say this to all GS's with all respect, any person who has any background in critical thinking or logic, well I just don't know how you can look at what CES is teaching (at least the majority of it), and say, "Oh that's a bunch of false doctrine that makes no sense". I mean, come on. Personal prophecy thing aside, I feel CES' teaching makes much more sense and is so much more true to REAL LIFE, what I see EVERY day with my own eyes.

Aren't people sick of living in the mystical? "Miracles for everyone who believes, what you fear will happen to you, all I have to do is SIT, pray, read the Word, fellowship with like-minded believers and give my tithe and I'll be a great spiritual person!".......what a bunch of nonsense, biblically and logically.

Again, all of this is just my opinion. :-)

LoneWolf

[TheHighWay]

LWM,

Thanks for your response. I see your point: both are offshoots and therefore open for discussion.

I say this to all GS's with all respect, any person who has any background in critical thinking or logic, well I just don't know how you can look at what CES is teaching (at least the majority of it), and say, "Oh that's a bunch of false doctrine that makes no sense". I mean, come on. Personal prophecy thing aside, I feel CES' teaching makes much more sense and is so much more true to REAL LIFE, what I see EVERY day with my own eyes.

"Every man is right in his own eyes." To you, what they teach makes sense, and you don't see how anyone could logically dismiss their teachings (personal prophecy thing aside). To me, I've thrown all organized religion out the window. I find a lot more opportunities to be good unto others, and a lot more spiritual understanding outside of other people's doctrines and teachings. But that's just me. Others may like CFF not because of their specific teachings but because they love the fellowship with their local folks. I don't think it's for us to judge other people's choices based on our own criteria.

Everyone talks about VPW being a plagarist. Take a browse through CFF's website and tell me they did not take every bit of jargon from VPW/TWI and carry it right over into their own group. All that "great leadership", all that "great education" all those years of "working the Word" and they can't come up with anything on their own or any "new light"?

In the first place, there is a big difference between VP and the offshoots. VP claimed what he was teaching was a result of his own research, teaching, study, and fellowship with God. That has been proven over and over again to be a blatant, bald-faced lie. I don't believe any of the offshoots are out there saying what they are teaching is their own material, but a re-evaluation of twi's doctrines.

In the second place, I think asking a group that broke off from another group, specifically to "save" the doctrines they believed had been corrupted by their original religion to come up with "new light" is a bit of a stretch. But then again, I think asking anyone at this point to come up with "new light" is ridiculous. How in the heck are you going to find anything new in a book that has been read, studied, dissected, and evaluated as much as the Bible. If you do, you are just playing semantics, in my opinion.

And I think that was many people's first mistake regarding twi... we bought into the notion that Doc Vic had been given "new light".

The information was new to us, so we assumed it was new to our lifetime. How naive of us. The Bible pretty much says what it says. Take it or leave it, you aren't going to find anything new that hasn't already been found by some Biblical scholar at some point in history. --- new personal insight, yes --- new inspiration, yes --- a renewed sense of self-worth, yes

------ but new light, Naaaaaah, I don't buy it. Not now I don't.

LoneWolf, if you are happy with CES, good for you. Take your happiness and make use of it... do good to others. Don't get wrapped up in a spiritual debate about which offshoot is better. Because it just doesn't matter, really.

(can't remember the movie... I can just hear it in my head: It just doesn't matter, it just doesn't matter, it just doesn't matter... )

Edited April 4, 2007 by TheHighWay