So if we are born spirit beings, then how do you account for believers in the OT who had the spirit of God taken away? If the spirit was taken away, then they had no spirit. If we are already spirit beings, then what do we receive from God in salvation?
you said...
The spirit in man is called "the spirit of man".
I think I would have to take issue with this. When the scripture speaks of the "spirit of man", it's simply referring to the soul. It's not the holy spirit, which is what Adam lost in his disobedience. Jesus Christ said that the "spirit is willing but the flesh is weak". The word spirit doesn't mean the holy spirit in them but rather the attitude of the mind.
It's all in the symantec range of pneuma. Can you explain it to me more?
So if we are born spirit beings, then how do you account for believers in the OT who had the spirit of God taken away? If the spirit was taken away, then they had no spirit. If we are already spirit beings, then what do we receive from God in salvation?
The Spirit of God and the spirit of man are two different entities. When we get salvation, God's Spirit comes and dwells in us in our spirit. Christ in you. We get his in dwelling presence.
you said...
I think I would have to take issue with this. When the scripture speaks of the "spirit of man", it's simply referring to the soul. It's not the holy spirit, which is what Adam lost in his disobedience. Jesus Christ said that the "spirit is willing but the flesh is weak". The word spirit doesn't mean the holy spirit in them but rather the attitude of the mind.
It's all in the symantec range of pneuma. Can you explain it to me more?
Lone Wolf
spirit and soul are two different entities. Adam lost his spiritual connection to God (revelation and walk) relationship was lost and introduced sin and death to the world.
Please explain to me what "attitude of mind" is and how it has anything to do with the spirit.
There is a spirit realm and when can enter in to the presence of God through worship, prayer, etc.
The Way with all of its "mind" doctrine really warped our brains. Bottom line it is new age stuff. We study and have knowledge but our power source is in the realm of the spirit. We were taught in the way that anything spirit was always from the devil spirit side of things. The only way we know about the spirits is through discerning of spirits.
So if we are born spirit beings, then how do you account for believers in the OT who had the spirit of God taken away? If the spirit was taken away, then they had no spirit. If we are already spirit beings, then what do we receive from God in salvation?
If I may offer my view here: the spirit(s) or spirit beings upon Old Testament prophets (or believers) were angels from Yahweh.
These comprised a class of angels - "ministering spirits" (cf. Hebrews ch. 1&2) which enabled their hosts various revelations and powers.
I think the writers of the Bible and their contemporaries saw spirit as simply an unseen force and a force unexplainable by them at the time....hence you see the use of pneuma for things like wind.
The "life force" was also unknown at the time. Organs for example were viewed as the source of all kinds of physical and mental characteristics. Where do you think all the things associated with "having a heart" came from? I spoke a little bit about this when I spoke about my art and canopic jars. This was a world wide thing. Breath life was not understood....that force of breath....the wind of breath. It was spirit of course.
Obviously, there is still much that is unknown, but a lot is there for those that have eyes to read and ears to.... hear books on tape or the Discovery Channel or TLC etc.
I'm with lindy on this.. The word spirit has always stood for that which is unseen except for it's effect and thus could define a wide range of things depending on where it is used.
Dan,
I don't view it like VP either, but just curious where you get your idea they are angels from God in the Tanakh? So would you say that Elisha getting a "double portion" was justing getting 2 angels instead of one?! And maybe Moses had 71 angels and 70 were taken from him and dispensed upon the 70 elders? Hmmm.. I just don't quite get that..
I'm with lindy on this.. The word spirit has always stood for that which is unseen except for it's effect and thus could define a wide range of things depending on where it is used.
Dan,
I don't view it like VP either, but just curious where you get your idea they are angels from God in the Tanakh? So would you say that Elisha getting a "double portion" was justing getting 2 angels instead of one?! And maybe Moses had 71 angels and 70 were taken from him and dispensed upon the 70 elders? Hmmm.. I just don't quite get that..
Mr.Trust -
I'm at work, but here is an excerpt from an earlier post I did awhile back in a thread on tongues
on this subject of angels and their connection with spiritual gifts/abilities -
“…Since reviewing Otto Everling's thesis "Paulinisch Angelologie und Daemonologie" and E. Earle Evan's provocative article on "Spiritual Gifts in the Pauline Community" (NTS 20) I've come to appreciate that peculiar "angelic" undercurrent flowing throughout the material of those chapters in 1 Corinthians 12 -14, which is also most strikingly apparent in Acts 2. Namely having to do with the role which angels were thought to have played in the function of the "spiritual gifts". Or in brief summation of the theory here - what we call the 9 "gifts" or "manifestations" may also have been actually regarded nine angelic "spirits" placed in service to every Christian, in the sense that "the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets".
Could these servicing "spirits" had been the principalities and powers "stripped" of their authority by Christ on the cross (Col.2:14f) - those comprising the "captives" which Christ led when He ascended? - and among "the gifts" given to men?”
E. Earle Evans article, "Spiritual Gifts in the Pauline Community", is most interesting.
The late Earnest Martin (of ASK publications) also did a couple of studies devoted to
the role angels played with delivering and enacting the law of Moses.
Sorry for the slightly disorienting post. I was very tired when I wrote it.
You said...
Please explain to me what "attitude of mind" is and how it has anything to do with the spirit.
It has nothing to do with the spirit and that's exactly my point. The text uses the word "spirit" but in reality has nothing to do with real spirit, but rather he was talking about the attitude of the mind.
Likewise when it speaks of the "spirit of man". Just because the text uses the word "spirit" doesn't mean it has anything to do with literal "spirit". Because it sounds like you're using the fact that it calls it the "spirit of man" to say that we are spirit beings and born with spirit.
I thought all we had was the flesh and that's why we're born dead.
Romans 8:10-11
But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.
And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
Notice the verses say, "if Christ is in you...your spirit is alive". "If the Spirit...is living in you", that's the point, not everybody has the spirit living in them.
I didn't say that every man is born with Holy Spirit.
No, but a reasonable person (or Oldiesman) might infer that from when you posted
"VP taught we received no spirit until we were born again
We are all born with spirit, soul and body"
Since what Wierwille taught we received was holy spirit, your statement immediately following looks like it is rferring to being born with holy spirit.
You might want to go back and read the whole thread.
As much as I disagree with Oldies most of the time, there is no reason to be short with him
Do you study on your own or do you repeat what you heard in PFAL?
...tho i must also say that my life and views have surely moved and changed and expanded a bit since then
tho..i would like to add a small rant ...
and while i can't agree with some of what you wrote, Son of the Master, i do like how you are looking at the order of progession from spirit to soul to body
from what i have come to understand...what it seems you have done is describe a path of descension (from spirit to soul to body) as compared to a path of ascension (from body to soul to spirit)
i would have to amplify it a bit and say that both approaches have more value when seen together than apart
tho many prefer one over the other in life- which is most naturally, at first, the ascension...which is natural
in many schools of thought (including some christian), life is allowed to be seen as an incredible creative process that is born of the "marriage" of the two
...together, they form a singular current of sorts, or continuum that keeps the universe fresh and re-creative and such...
and so the erotic, agentic, evolutionary, masculine "love" is the ascending will - which strives to move from body to soul to spirit
where the communal, allowing, surrendering, agape "love" is the descending will - which does not strive at all...just falls real easy like rain from spirit to soul to body
in a sense...one might say...
that if one is mostly in eros...they seek only to descend to heaven and bliss and safety and perfection and nirvana...hell may simply get deeper and deeper and hotter and hotter ... and the world seems dirtier and filthier and more and more evil
and if one is mostly in agape...there are most likely OK with dying and returning to the radical clarity of pure wide open invisible infinite unseen Spirit that everything arose in in the first place...tho they may become more useful and helpful as servants in the bowels of hell
dare i say that VPs preference for the path of body to soul to spirit has a lot to do with his desire for a mostly erotic spiritual path...the one whose demons seemed to outnumber his angels
i would go as far as to say that he had an outright loathing for most sorts of descending spirituality
more and more...it seems to me that that horrible "enmity we are to be delivered from"
is a way of describing BOTH the merely ascending one that rejects descension
AND the merely descending one that rejects ascension
all this "enmity" plays out a gazillion ways in life...great and small
dare i say that VPs preference for the path of body to soul to spirit has a lot to do with his desire for a mostly erotic spiritual path...the one whose demons seemed to outnumber his angels
i would go as far as to say that he had an outright loathing for most sorts of descending spirituality
more and more...it seems to me that that horrible "enmity we are to be delivered from"
is a way of describing BOTH the merely ascending one that rejects descension
AND the merely descending one that rejects ascension
all this "enmity" plays out a gazillion ways in life...great and small
Sirguessalot, I am still reading and rereading this. It is deep. And I see what you are saying
I get the idea from Genesis and James that ALL people are made in the image of God:
Genesis 9: 5-7 NASB
5"Surely I will require (D)your lifeblood; (E)from every beast I will require it. And from every man, from every man's brother I will require the life of man.
Populate the earth abundantly and multiply in it."
James 3: 8, 9 NASB
8But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of (M)deadly poison.
9With it we bless (N)our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, (O)who have been made in the likeness of God;
I get a little confused over discussions of body, soul and spirit – I don't buy the way VPW would dissect everything with a "mathematical exactness and scientific precision." We'll have to include the extra parts Jesus mentioned in Matthew – heart and mind – man goes from being a threefold being to a fivefold being [and could sing with The Fifth Dimension – darn, I should have posted this in the Music Lovers thread]:
Matthew 22: 35-37 NASB
35One of them, [a](AB)a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him,
36"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
37And He said to him, " '(AC)YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
I get the same idea.. Because even after the fall it talks about man being made in the image of God to Noah.. TWI always said the image of God refers to the "spriti" of God that Adam lost, so how was it continuing after Noah?
I've read some on this subject and I could no doubt be wrong, but my hypothesis is the image we were created in was the same image Christ was and is. Scripture calls Jesus the Image of the Invisible God.. How was Christ the image of God? Ignoring the Trinitarian beliefs, if one saw Jesus they could say they saw the Father in what way? Not the physcial sense. Not the mental sense. Nor the spiritual sense. My view, which again always open for discussion and willing to be incorrect, is that Christ was the perfect image of God in that he always did His Father's will and therefore showed forth the image of God, who is love, mercy, kindness, authority over those things God gave. And now going back to Genesis, man made in God's image to have dominion over this earth (and repeated 3 times).. To me that means God made man to be his image on this earth, his representative, his ambassador maybe so to speak. To have authority on this earth and carry things out as his imagebearer.. God's heart from the beginning that we would be his representative on the earth, but just because we were made to be in his image, doesn't mean we are great imagebearers and probably mess this image up, but still we are created tp be His image.. And the spirit is just a facilitator in that it empowers us to carry out what we were made to be, God's image.
Oh well, just a thought.. Maybe only to be in one brain cell and out the other..
I get the same idea.. Because even after the fall it talks about man being made in the image of God to Noah.. TWI always said the image of God refers to the "spriti" of God that Adam lost, so how was it continuing after Noah?
So, what was lost with the first sin? A different spirit? The HS upon them as taught? And the spirit of man is something given with the birth of each human as Son is saying?
Maybe it's a matter of looking at the problem with a faulty assumption. What died in the Garden of Eden? Or more specifically – what is death? We know TWI's idea of it. However, what I've read in some systematic theologies fits better with studies of the nature of man and the eternal state. It is that death is a separation or change of state. Physical death is separation of the life-force from the body, spiritual death is separation of man from God in this life, eternal death [the "second death"] is separation of man from God for all eternity.
…Perhaps in this "transition" aspects of a being are affected/changed. Maybe what we could say was "lost" was man's connection to God. What has somehow changed is the relationship. The image of God is still there – but now tarnished…distorted…fallen or something like that. I know I was being a little silly in post # 18 about man being a fivefold being – but where I'm going with this is - whether you view man as a twofold, threefold, fivefold being – I don't really think that's a critical issue. In my opinion – body, soul, spirit, mind, heart, etc. are all aspects of ONE being – and were not meant to be separated in the original design.
That is why Christians who are living at the time of the Rapture will experience a bodily change – and further down in the timeline, I think we can assume some type of body is given to everyone – no matter which resurrection they're a part of – otherwise WHAT is being resurrected? My point is that I believe people were designed as unified beings – which includes having a body. The soul…spirit…life-force…"that which makes you, you"…was meant to be joined to a body – whether experiencing life on earth…or the eternal state.
Interesting discussion. I think, however Adam and Eve were created in God's image, it was more than what we see now. When we look at a person, the body is what you see. Our bodies and souls are dominant.
I almost think with Adam and Eve, their spirit was the dominant covering - maybe similar to Christ in the transfiguration when he was seen in his glory. What ever this image was, they were devastated when they lost it. Now, they were no different looking than the animals. That's why they looked so forward to a savior, redeemer, who would restore the glory they had lost, and restore the earth back to the life it had lost.
Man was created with a body, soul and spirit, but, its like when a building collapses, the spiritual layer, when they fell, collapsed into the soul, they are now so intermingled, only the Word - the sharp two edged sword can divide them.
I can see it in two ways now, I don't know which is right but my thoughts have been lately, that when one is born again, since we are told we will be a totally "new" creation - a new creation that will be revealed to the Universe, which now is groaning, waiting for our glory to be revealed - and will glory in us, then when we are born again, we receive a totally new spirit which can commune with the one we have, or, when we are born again, somehow the spirit we have is activated - flipped on, like a computer, it is "regenerated" so to speak. It is made new.
Then, I think in the future, our spirits will be the dominant appearance, and they will be magnificent, newly created, or restored.
You know as a Christian, the other day, there was a panhandler, so I gave him some money. I thought, someday, if he is born again, he will be a magnificent creature, which, if men saw, would fall down and worship.
So, what was lost with the first sin? A different spirit? The HS upon them as taught? And the spirit of man is something given with the birth of each human as Son is saying?
Seems to make sense.
Yeah, that's the best I can figure it.. The HS (God's spirit) was lost, as they changed God's direction (good and evil) for their own direction (good and evil), and therefore gave up God's spirit to direct and guide them for their own ways. The new covenant talks about the torah(instructions) of God being written on our hearts, and being placed in us (God's spirit - possibly?) and we have no need for one to teach us (maybe remind, but we have the H.S. to lead us?])). So the H.S. leads us so we can know God's good and evil and can be the image-bearers we have been created to be.
Oh well, more thoughts. Not necessarily right.. but a thought...
I think everyone here has tremendous insight. More importantly than trying to prove who is doctrinally correct, I see hungry hearts genuinely engaged in sharing about Godly things. I am touched by that. My hunger was ripped out of me after POP and CG clergy meeting. It took me YEARS to get back a hunger for God. I saw friends go down, give up and fade away. Because I was tore up, I sat back and watched Satan divide a body of the greatest teachers and servants of the Lord I ever knew. I saw my best friends turn against me because we didnt believe the same doctrine. Remember someone said, "I have no friends when it comes to the Word?" I thought, "they have no Word when it comes to their friends". What happened to the unconditional love of God. We may not believe some of the same things, we do agree on a majority of the Word. At least we could still pray like minded prayers. Despite doctrinal differences, we still have the ability to reach a lost and dying world...together. I lost track of my closest friends. Some I havent seen in twenty years. One is still in TWI. Knowing this man's heart like I did, it is still beyond my comprehension why he remains.
My prayer for all in GSC is, "may the Holy Spirit re-ignite the flame of passion for God our Father and His Son Jesus Christ. Instill a HUNGER in us again and HEAL OUR HEARTS. Hearts be healed in the name of Jesus Christ.
May we rise up again as a body of teachers and servants boldly proclaiming that Jesus is the Lord.
The harvest is plenteous and the laborers are few.
Lord, let us once again get in the spiritual battle and raise up a HUNGRY generation who will stand on the Word of God".
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Lone Wolf McQuade
So if we are born spirit beings, then how do you account for believers in the OT who had the spirit of God taken away? If the spirit was taken away, then they had no spirit. If we are already spirit beings, then what do we receive from God in salvation?
you said...
I think I would have to take issue with this. When the scripture speaks of the "spirit of man", it's simply referring to the soul. It's not the holy spirit, which is what Adam lost in his disobedience. Jesus Christ said that the "spirit is willing but the flesh is weak". The word spirit doesn't mean the holy spirit in them but rather the attitude of the mind.
It's all in the symantec range of pneuma. Can you explain it to me more?
Lone Wolf
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Son of the Master
The Spirit of God and the spirit of man are two different entities. When we get salvation, God's Spirit comes and dwells in us in our spirit. Christ in you. We get his in dwelling presence.
you said...
spirit and soul are two different entities. Adam lost his spiritual connection to God (revelation and walk) relationship was lost and introduced sin and death to the world.
Please explain to me what "attitude of mind" is and how it has anything to do with the spirit.
There is a spirit realm and when can enter in to the presence of God through worship, prayer, etc.
The Way with all of its "mind" doctrine really warped our brains. Bottom line it is new age stuff. We study and have knowledge but our power source is in the realm of the spirit. We were taught in the way that anything spirit was always from the devil spirit side of things. The only way we know about the spirits is through discerning of spirits.
I am enoying this thread with you.
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TheInvisibleDan
If I may offer my view here: the spirit(s) or spirit beings upon Old Testament prophets (or believers) were angels from Yahweh.
These comprised a class of angels - "ministering spirits" (cf. Hebrews ch. 1&2) which enabled their hosts various revelations and powers.
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lindyhopper
I think the writers of the Bible and their contemporaries saw spirit as simply an unseen force and a force unexplainable by them at the time....hence you see the use of pneuma for things like wind.
The "life force" was also unknown at the time. Organs for example were viewed as the source of all kinds of physical and mental characteristics. Where do you think all the things associated with "having a heart" came from? I spoke a little bit about this when I spoke about my art and canopic jars. This was a world wide thing. Breath life was not understood....that force of breath....the wind of breath. It was spirit of course.
Obviously, there is still much that is unknown, but a lot is there for those that have eyes to read and ears to.... hear books on tape or the Discovery Channel or TLC etc.
Just my two bits.
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TrustAndObey
I'm with lindy on this.. The word spirit has always stood for that which is unseen except for it's effect and thus could define a wide range of things depending on where it is used.
Dan,
I don't view it like VP either, but just curious where you get your idea they are angels from God in the Tanakh? So would you say that Elisha getting a "double portion" was justing getting 2 angels instead of one?! And maybe Moses had 71 angels and 70 were taken from him and dispensed upon the 70 elders? Hmmm.. I just don't quite get that..
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Son of the Master
We need to be careful when we talk about Angels and their authority and function. VP doctrine has been compared to new age beliefs.
VP taught the Holy Spirit is an "it". Wrong. The Holy Spirit is God. God is not and "it"
The OT prophets had the Holy Spirit upon them. They received and "anointing" of the Holy Spirit and the anointing was for service.
Devils possess and Angels don't. Devils will try violate a persons free will. Angels never will.
Angels are ministering spirits and they don't possess people.
As I said before, we must operate "discerning of spirits" when we are dealing with the presence of spirits.
The OT prophets knew the Holy Spirit came upon them. They did have angelic help. Angels are also warriors.
It is hard to be dogmatic when you read Isaiah 11:2..the seven Spirits of God... theres that number 7. the "sevens" are also mentioned in the
book of Revelation. There are at least three different interpretions of what they are. Some think Angels.
I believe they are the Holy Spirit.
I hope I addressed above issues.
This is great dialogue. I appreciate and consider all the input.
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oldiesman
VP taught that the soul is the spirit of man.
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Son of the Master
Yes. But, soul is soul and spirit is spirit.
Soul is not spirit.
VP taught we received no spirit until we were born again
We are all born with spirit, soul and body
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oldiesman
Oh I see your point now, you believe that every person is born with holy spirit.
Sounds like an eastern teaching, that every man has a spark of the divine.
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Son of the Master
I didn't say that every man is born with Holy Spirit. You might want to go back and read the whole thread.
Do you study on your own or do you repeat what you heard in PFAL?
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TheInvisibleDan
Mr.Trust -
I'm at work, but here is an excerpt from an earlier post I did awhile back in a thread on tongues
on this subject of angels and their connection with spiritual gifts/abilities -
E. Earle Evans article, "Spiritual Gifts in the Pauline Community", is most interesting.
The late Earnest Martin (of ASK publications) also did a couple of studies devoted to
the role angels played with delivering and enacting the law of Moses.
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Lone Wolf McQuade
Sorry for the slightly disorienting post. I was very tired when I wrote it.
You said...
It has nothing to do with the spirit and that's exactly my point. The text uses the word "spirit" but in reality has nothing to do with real spirit, but rather he was talking about the attitude of the mind.Likewise when it speaks of the "spirit of man". Just because the text uses the word "spirit" doesn't mean it has anything to do with literal "spirit". Because it sounds like you're using the fact that it calls it the "spirit of man" to say that we are spirit beings and born with spirit.
I thought all we had was the flesh and that's why we're born dead.
Romans 8:10-11
But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.
And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
Notice the verses say, "if Christ is in you...your spirit is alive". "If the Spirit...is living in you", that's the point, not everybody has the spirit living in them.
I think VPW was correct.
Lone Wolf
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Oakspear
"VP taught we received no spirit until we were born again
We are all born with spirit, soul and body"
Since what Wierwille taught we received was holy spirit, your statement immediately following looks like it is rferring to being born with holy spirit.
As much as I disagree with Oldies most of the time, there is no reason to be short with himNo, he makes it up as he goes alongLink to comment
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sirguessalot
well...thanks for starting this interesting thread
its always cool to see new faces bringing light down to the dungeon
but...rather than be redundant and noise up the thread, i would also like to point to a previous thread i started almost a year ago on the topic:
Body Soul and Spirit Revisited...as a path of steps
...tho i must also say that my life and views have surely moved and changed and expanded a bit since then
tho..i would like to add a small rant ...
and while i can't agree with some of what you wrote, Son of the Master, i do like how you are looking at the order of progession from spirit to soul to body
from what i have come to understand...what it seems you have done is describe a path of descension (from spirit to soul to body) as compared to a path of ascension (from body to soul to spirit)
i would have to amplify it a bit and say that both approaches have more value when seen together than apart
tho many prefer one over the other in life- which is most naturally, at first, the ascension...which is natural
in many schools of thought (including some christian), life is allowed to be seen as an incredible creative process that is born of the "marriage" of the two
...together, they form a singular current of sorts, or continuum that keeps the universe fresh and re-creative and such...
and so the erotic, agentic, evolutionary, masculine "love" is the ascending will - which strives to move from body to soul to spirit
where the communal, allowing, surrendering, agape "love" is the descending will - which does not strive at all...just falls real easy like rain from spirit to soul to body
in a sense...one might say...
that if one is mostly in eros...they seek only to descend to heaven and bliss and safety and perfection and nirvana...hell may simply get deeper and deeper and hotter and hotter ... and the world seems dirtier and filthier and more and more evil
and if one is mostly in agape...there are most likely OK with dying and returning to the radical clarity of pure wide open invisible infinite unseen Spirit that everything arose in in the first place...tho they may become more useful and helpful as servants in the bowels of hell
dare i say that VPs preference for the path of body to soul to spirit has a lot to do with his desire for a mostly erotic spiritual path...the one whose demons seemed to outnumber his angels
i would go as far as to say that he had an outright loathing for most sorts of descending spirituality
more and more...it seems to me that that horrible "enmity we are to be delivered from"
is a way of describing BOTH the merely ascending one that rejects descension
AND the merely descending one that rejects ascension
all this "enmity" plays out a gazillion ways in life...great and small
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Son of the Master
Dear Sir, That was AMAZING insight and heart. I am going to checkout your original thread.
Also, I owe Lone Wolf a response. Lone Wolf your latest was insightful, too. Very logical.
I have been busy with work and family and need some time to look into more bible but will respond ASAP.
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Dot Matrix
Sirguessalot, I am still reading and rereading this. It is deep. And I see what you are saying
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T-Bone
I get the idea from Genesis and James that ALL people are made in the image of God:
Genesis 9: 5-7 NASB
5"Surely I will require (D)your lifeblood; (E)from every beast I will require it. And from every man, from every man's brother I will require the life of man.
6"(F)Whoever sheds man's blood,
By man his blood shall be shed,
For (G)in the image of God
He made man.
7"As for you, (H)be fruitful and multiply;
Populate the earth abundantly and multiply in it."
James 3: 8, 9 NASB
8But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of (M)deadly poison.
9With it we bless (N)our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, (O)who have been made in the likeness of God;
I get a little confused over discussions of body, soul and spirit – I don't buy the way VPW would dissect everything with a "mathematical exactness and scientific precision." We'll have to include the extra parts Jesus mentioned in Matthew – heart and mind – man goes from being a threefold being to a fivefold being
[and could sing with The Fifth Dimension – darn, I should have posted this in the Music Lovers thread]:
Matthew 22: 35-37 NASB
35One of them, [a](AB)a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him,
36"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
37And He said to him, " '(AC)YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
38"This is the great and foremost commandment.
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TrustAndObey
T-Bone,
I get the same idea.. Because even after the fall it talks about man being made in the image of God to Noah.. TWI always said the image of God refers to the "spriti" of God that Adam lost, so how was it continuing after Noah?
I've read some on this subject and I could no doubt be wrong, but my hypothesis is the image we were created in was the same image Christ was and is. Scripture calls Jesus the Image of the Invisible God.. How was Christ the image of God? Ignoring the Trinitarian beliefs, if one saw Jesus they could say they saw the Father in what way? Not the physcial sense. Not the mental sense. Nor the spiritual sense. My view, which again always open for discussion and willing to be incorrect, is that Christ was the perfect image of God in that he always did His Father's will and therefore showed forth the image of God, who is love, mercy, kindness, authority over those things God gave. And now going back to Genesis, man made in God's image to have dominion over this earth (and repeated 3 times).. To me that means God made man to be his image on this earth, his representative, his ambassador maybe so to speak. To have authority on this earth and carry things out as his imagebearer.. God's heart from the beginning that we would be his representative on the earth, but just because we were made to be in his image, doesn't mean we are great imagebearers and probably mess this image up, but still we are created tp be His image.. And the spirit is just a facilitator in that it empowers us to carry out what we were made to be, God's image.
Oh well, just a thought.. Maybe only to be in one brain cell and out the other..
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Dot Matrix
Yes this has always bothered me as well....
So, what was lost with the first sin? A different spirit? The HS upon them as taught? And the spirit of man is something given with the birth of each human as Son is saying?
Seems to make sense.
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T-Bone
Maybe it's a matter of looking at the problem with a faulty assumption. What died in the Garden of Eden? Or more specifically – what is death? We know TWI's idea of it. However, what I've read in some systematic theologies fits better with studies of the nature of man and the eternal state. It is that death is a separation or change of state. Physical death is separation of the life-force from the body, spiritual death is separation of man from God in this life, eternal death [the "second death"] is separation of man from God for all eternity.
…Perhaps in this "transition" aspects of a being are affected/changed. Maybe what we could say was "lost" was man's connection to God. What has somehow changed is the relationship. The image of God is still there – but now tarnished…distorted…fallen or something like that. I know I was being a little silly in post # 18 about man being a fivefold being – but where I'm going with this is - whether you view man as a twofold, threefold, fivefold being – I don't really think that's a critical issue. In my opinion – body, soul, spirit, mind, heart, etc. are all aspects of ONE being – and were not meant to be separated in the original design.
That is why Christians who are living at the time of the Rapture will experience a bodily change – and further down in the timeline, I think we can assume some type of body is given to everyone – no matter which resurrection they're a part of – otherwise WHAT is being resurrected? My point is that I believe people were designed as unified beings – which includes having a body. The soul…spirit…life-force…"that which makes you, you"…was meant to be joined to a body – whether experiencing life on earth…or the eternal state.
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Sunesis
Interesting discussion. I think, however Adam and Eve were created in God's image, it was more than what we see now. When we look at a person, the body is what you see. Our bodies and souls are dominant.
I almost think with Adam and Eve, their spirit was the dominant covering - maybe similar to Christ in the transfiguration when he was seen in his glory. What ever this image was, they were devastated when they lost it. Now, they were no different looking than the animals. That's why they looked so forward to a savior, redeemer, who would restore the glory they had lost, and restore the earth back to the life it had lost.
Man was created with a body, soul and spirit, but, its like when a building collapses, the spiritual layer, when they fell, collapsed into the soul, they are now so intermingled, only the Word - the sharp two edged sword can divide them.
I can see it in two ways now, I don't know which is right but my thoughts have been lately, that when one is born again, since we are told we will be a totally "new" creation - a new creation that will be revealed to the Universe, which now is groaning, waiting for our glory to be revealed - and will glory in us, then when we are born again, we receive a totally new spirit which can commune with the one we have, or, when we are born again, somehow the spirit we have is activated - flipped on, like a computer, it is "regenerated" so to speak. It is made new.
Then, I think in the future, our spirits will be the dominant appearance, and they will be magnificent, newly created, or restored.
You know as a Christian, the other day, there was a panhandler, so I gave him some money. I thought, someday, if he is born again, he will be a magnificent creature, which, if men saw, would fall down and worship.
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TrustAndObey
Yeah, that's the best I can figure it.. The HS (God's spirit) was lost, as they changed God's direction (good and evil) for their own direction (good and evil), and therefore gave up God's spirit to direct and guide them for their own ways. The new covenant talks about the torah(instructions) of God being written on our hearts, and being placed in us (God's spirit - possibly?) and we have no need for one to teach us (maybe remind, but we have the H.S. to lead us?])). So the H.S. leads us so we can know God's good and evil and can be the image-bearers we have been created to be.
Oh well, more thoughts. Not necessarily right.. but a thought...
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Dot Matrix
So Son of the Master, what do you think?
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Son of the Master
I think everyone here has tremendous insight. More importantly than trying to prove who is doctrinally correct, I see hungry hearts genuinely engaged in sharing about Godly things. I am touched by that. My hunger was ripped out of me after POP and CG clergy meeting. It took me YEARS to get back a hunger for God. I saw friends go down, give up and fade away. Because I was tore up, I sat back and watched Satan divide a body of the greatest teachers and servants of the Lord I ever knew. I saw my best friends turn against me because we didnt believe the same doctrine. Remember someone said, "I have no friends when it comes to the Word?" I thought, "they have no Word when it comes to their friends". What happened to the unconditional love of God. We may not believe some of the same things, we do agree on a majority of the Word. At least we could still pray like minded prayers. Despite doctrinal differences, we still have the ability to reach a lost and dying world...together. I lost track of my closest friends. Some I havent seen in twenty years. One is still in TWI. Knowing this man's heart like I did, it is still beyond my comprehension why he remains.
My prayer for all in GSC is, "may the Holy Spirit re-ignite the flame of passion for God our Father and His Son Jesus Christ. Instill a HUNGER in us again and HEAL OUR HEARTS. Hearts be healed in the name of Jesus Christ.
May we rise up again as a body of teachers and servants boldly proclaiming that Jesus is the Lord.
The harvest is plenteous and the laborers are few.
Lord, let us once again get in the spiritual battle and raise up a HUNGRY generation who will stand on the Word of God".
Love to you all.
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