Abigail, and Evan, I tend to agree with the points you made. You differentiate between what you call guilt (sin consciousness), which I think the Bible calls 'godly sorrow', which allows us to repent and change where we need to; and condemnation which is not a good thing.
It is not. However, guiltiness is a biblical concept, and an important one. Those who wish to eliminate it as being 'negative' are missing the gospel message. Guilt is God's gift by which he tells us that we aren't okay. Knowing we aren't okay is necessary to come to Christ. And once we come to Christ and have that guilty stin washed clean, we still need guilt consciousness to alert us that we're screwing up and in need of repentance.
Removing sin consciousness from one who sins is possible, but it's NOT a good thing.
I have not been on here discussing my ideas lately because whenever I become blank and unable to express what is in my mind I figure I am in a receive state of consciousness (as opposed to a retain state or release state.)
Well it seems that now I am in a sort of release state.
I get hung up on numbers...
Suddenly I will perceive a new numerical equation and I become enamored almost listless with ecstatic exuberance.
It appears I am in one of these moments now.
Law and liberty and the mystery of how that they become "one" is something only the mystics can fully understand.
Although this happens on a daily basis the how of how it happens is enshrouded in one of the greatest most inexplicable conundrums of all time.
How this conundrum explains the rift between trinitarian and protestant.
and it all boils down to numbers. (mathematical accuracy)
It is not. However, guiltiness is a biblical concept, and an important one. Those who wish to eliminate it as being 'negative' are missing the gospel message. Guilt is God's gift by which he tells us that we aren't okay. Knowing we aren't okay is necessary to come to Christ. And once we come to Christ and have that guilty stin washed clean, we still need guilt consciousness to alert us that we're screwing up and in need of repentance.
Removing sin consciousness from one who sins is possible, but it's NOT a good thing.
Nicely said, Evan. Knowing ones own mind allows for compact communication. Thank you, and I agree, though I've never said as well as you just did.
I have not been on here discussing my ideas lately because whenever I become blank and unable to express what is in my mind I figure I am in a receive state of consciousness (as opposed to a retain state or release state.)
Well it seems that now I am in a sort of release state.
I get hung up on numbers...
Suddenly I will perceive a new numerical equation and I become enamored almost listless with ecstatic exuberance.
It appears I am in one of these moments now.
Law and liberty and the mystery of how that they become "one" is something only the mystics can fully understand.
Although this happens on a daily basis the how of how it happens is enshrouded in one of the greatest most inexplicable conundrums of all time.
How this conundrum explains the rift between trinitarian and protestant.
and it all boils down to numbers. (mathematical accuracy)
Glad you stopped in DWW, I was starting to wonder if you got fed up with us.
I get the receive/release thing. It happens to me too - I go with the moment so to speak, post when I am inspired to, read when I am inspired to, take a break when I am inspired to, etc.
The numbers - well that part is beyond me. I have serious issues with math and numbers, always struggled in school with them. I think in pictures, images. Some are verbal learners - we are all different. I have a son who thinks in numbers and patterns, his mind amazes me. I suspect my younger son is like me, visual. Time will tell.
Anyway, it is nice to hear from you and I am glad you haven't give up on us altogether.
I was going to expound on this new number theory but I just lost my desire...
It is not you Abigail, it is this idea that sin is more important than the spirit.
I am so tired of correcting even the most self professed "Christians" of this truth...
That it is God's works in us and not our works that saves us.
Nothing even the most perfect Christian can do can please God.
God is pleased by his own spirit in us walking in love and forgiveness.
No matter how much people love throwing sin at people they are saved from this sin.
For it is God who rejects and accepts the sinner not human judgment.
Human judgment can only judge the flesh but it cannot know the spirit for the spirit is spiritually discerned.
First, DWW, I am not a self professed Christian at this point in time. I do not shut the door on the notion that I may one day call myself Christian, but at this time in my life, I do not.
I would agree that it is God's work in us and not our own works that ultimately "save" us. I disagree that even the most "perfect Christian" cannot please God.
In other words, I agree that it is ultimately God that works in us and God that provides forgiveness, mercy, grace, salvation, etc. etc. But I also think God does care about what we do - that what we choose to do does matter to God.
It isn't about throwing sin at people or about judging people, it is about striving to be well pleasing to God, it is about learning what is pleasing to God in the same way a child desires to learn what is pleasing to his/her parents. As parents we don't condemn our children, but we do teach them right from wrong, we do teach them what is pleasing to us. If my older son hits my younger son, that is not pleasing to me. It doesn't change my love for him, but it does mean it is necessary for me to teach him that he made a poor choice in his behavior. It does mean I have to find ways to encourage and teach him to behave better.
First, DWW, I am not a self professed Christian at this point in time. I do not shut the door on the notion that I may one day call myself Christian, but at this time in my life, I do not.
I would agree that it is God's work in us and not our own works that ultimately "save" us. I disagree that even the most "perfect Christian" cannot please God.
In other words, I agree that it is ultimately God that works in us and God that provides forgiveness, mercy, grace, salvation, etc. etc. But I also think God does care about what we do - that what we choose to do does matter to God.
It isn't about throwing sin at people or about judging people, it is about striving to be well pleasing to God, it is about learning what is pleasing to God in the same way a child desires to learn what is pleasing to his/her parents. As parents we don't condemn our children, but we do teach them right from wrong, we do teach them what is pleasing to us. If my older son hits my younger son, that is not pleasing to me. It doesn't change my love for him, but it does mean it is necessary for me to teach him that he made a poor choice in his behavior. It does mean I have to find ways to encourage and teach him to behave better.
Yes in a black and white world, but in an imperfect world inhabited by imperfect people with a lot of grey in them, we do our best to live by faith, but unfortunately never totally rid ouselves of fear.
Abi, I'm not sure I can see you as a hobbit; maybe an elf, hmmm...
Do you propose a meaning other than I proposed for those two verses? It seems self-evident to me and pretty straightforward, but I could be wrong.
If I may be so bold, I would rephrase "Some pick freedom and some pick slavery..
You cannot serve two masters" as thus:
Some serve righteousness and some serve sin, and yet both are free. The former is free from sin whil the latter is, sadly, free from righteousness.
Based on the above, I would posit that there is no freedom in a vacuum. Nobody is "just" free. They are free from something. That 'something', in the verses, is either sin or righteousness...
In that sense, everybody is free and everybody is a servant.
Do you propose a meaning other than I proposed for those two verses? It seems self-evident to me and pretty straightforward, but I could be wrong.
If I may be so bold, I would rephrase "Some pick freedom and some pick slavery..
You cannot serve two masters" as thus:
Some serve righteousness and some serve sin, and yet both are free. The former is free from sin whil the latter is, sadly, free from righteousness.
Based on the above, I would posit that there is no freedom in a vacuum. Nobody is "just" free. They are free from something. That 'something', in the verses, is either sin or righteousness...
In that sense, everybody is free and everybody is a servant.
Some seek righteousness through the flesh and some seek it though the spirit. (two ways)
Some seek their own righteousness through their own works and some rather the righteousness through the mighty works of God.
Salvation is of grace lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Comment: We walk focused on the works of God, not our own...
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Jeaniam
Abigail, and Evan, I tend to agree with the points you made. You differentiate between what you call guilt (sin consciousness), which I think the Bible calls 'godly sorrow', which allows us to repent and change where we need to; and condemnation which is not a good thing.
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DrWearWord
Sin is the greatest form of fear motivation.
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TheEvan
Huh?
Sin is both a (fallen) state and an act.
Now it's a (fear) motivation?
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DrWearWord
I have not been on here discussing my ideas lately because whenever I become blank and unable to express what is in my mind I figure I am in a receive state of consciousness (as opposed to a retain state or release state.)
Well it seems that now I am in a sort of release state.
I get hung up on numbers...
Suddenly I will perceive a new numerical equation and I become enamored almost listless with ecstatic exuberance.
It appears I am in one of these moments now.
Law and liberty and the mystery of how that they become "one" is something only the mystics can fully understand.
Although this happens on a daily basis the how of how it happens is enshrouded in one of the greatest most inexplicable conundrums of all time.
How this conundrum explains the rift between trinitarian and protestant.
and it all boils down to numbers. (mathematical accuracy)
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DrWearWord
Where the two loops meet in the center is zero...
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anotherDan
Nicely said, Evan. Knowing ones own mind allows for compact communication. Thank you, and I agree, though I've never said as well as you just did.
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DrWearWord
And knowing how to insult others well by "pointing fingers"...
What part of the word "free" don't you understand?
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Abigail
Glad you stopped in DWW, I was starting to wonder if you got fed up with us.
I get the receive/release thing. It happens to me too - I go with the moment so to speak, post when I am inspired to, read when I am inspired to, take a break when I am inspired to, etc.
The numbers - well that part is beyond me. I have serious issues with math and numbers, always struggled in school with them. I think in pictures, images. Some are verbal learners - we are all different. I have a son who thinks in numbers and patterns, his mind amazes me. I suspect my younger son is like me, visual. Time will tell.
Anyway, it is nice to hear from you and I am glad you haven't give up on us altogether.
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anotherDan
By Jove, I think he's GOT it!
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DrWearWord
I was going to expound on this new number theory but I just lost my desire...
It is not you Abigail, it is this idea that sin is more important than the spirit.
I am so tired of correcting even the most self professed "Christians" of this truth...
That it is God's works in us and not our works that saves us.
Nothing even the most perfect Christian can do can please God.
God is pleased by his own spirit in us walking in love and forgiveness.
No matter how much people love throwing sin at people they are saved from this sin.
For it is God who rejects and accepts the sinner not human judgment.
Human judgment can only judge the flesh but it cannot know the spirit for the spirit is spiritually discerned.
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DrWearWord
It does not take holy spirit to believe.
There are certain innate qualities within people even without the holy spirit.
There are unique qualities God placed in the hearts of every living organism.
The desire for eternal life (survival) and the ability to believe and have hope.
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DrWearWord
Love liberty and forgiveness and you will be shunned like Jesus was...
Kinda makes you wonder about "the way"...
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Abigail
First, DWW, I am not a self professed Christian at this point in time. I do not shut the door on the notion that I may one day call myself Christian, but at this time in my life, I do not.
I would agree that it is God's work in us and not our own works that ultimately "save" us. I disagree that even the most "perfect Christian" cannot please God.
In other words, I agree that it is ultimately God that works in us and God that provides forgiveness, mercy, grace, salvation, etc. etc. But I also think God does care about what we do - that what we choose to do does matter to God.
It isn't about throwing sin at people or about judging people, it is about striving to be well pleasing to God, it is about learning what is pleasing to God in the same way a child desires to learn what is pleasing to his/her parents. As parents we don't condemn our children, but we do teach them right from wrong, we do teach them what is pleasing to us. If my older son hits my younger son, that is not pleasing to me. It doesn't change my love for him, but it does mean it is necessary for me to teach him that he made a poor choice in his behavior. It does mean I have to find ways to encourage and teach him to behave better.
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DrWearWord
Abigail, you can't be half saved... :)
(Back to numbers, or rather fractions)
One can live by fear or faith.
Let go and let God... :)
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anotherDan
I'm beginning to wonder. Maybe Abi is half-saved!
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Abigail
Or perhaps simply a halfling? :blink:
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DrWearWord
Better half full than half empty, better nothing in excess than everything in moderation... :)
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TheEvan
No trouble there, ww, but I fail to understand how that is a reply to my post. Perhaps you could explain it more clearly?
Speaking of "free", everybody is free. Oh and everybody is in bondage. Yes, everybody. Pick your freedom and pick your slavery:
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye
were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and
become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto
holiness, and the end everlasting life.
F
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Jeaniam
Yes in a black and white world, but in an imperfect world inhabited by imperfect people with a lot of grey in them, we do our best to live by faith, but unfortunately never totally rid ouselves of fear.
Abi, I'm not sure I can see you as a hobbit; maybe an elf, hmmm...
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DrWearWord
Some pick freedom and some pick slavery..
You cannot serve two masters.
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TheEvan
Do you propose a meaning other than I proposed for those two verses? It seems self-evident to me and pretty straightforward, but I could be wrong.
If I may be so bold, I would rephrase "Some pick freedom and some pick slavery..
You cannot serve two masters" as thus:
Some serve righteousness and some serve sin, and yet both are free. The former is free from sin whil the latter is, sadly, free from righteousness.
Based on the above, I would posit that there is no freedom in a vacuum. Nobody is "just" free. They are free from something. That 'something', in the verses, is either sin or righteousness...
In that sense, everybody is free and everybody is a servant.
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DrWearWord
Some seek righteousness through the flesh and some seek it though the spirit. (two ways)
Some seek their own righteousness through their own works and some rather the righteousness through the mighty works of God.
Salvation is of grace lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Comment: We walk focused on the works of God, not our own...
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TheEvan
Okay, that's cool. You don't have to answer. Carry on.
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DrWearWord
I did answer.
Some "Christians" today are seemingly more zealous for the law than the pharisees were in Jesus' day.
Until you realize that what I say will appear like parables.
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