What it was...

[Catcup]

Of course, comparing a fascist military dictatorship with a Christian ministry makes a great deal of sense.

Especially comparing the rise of Nazism with The Way International makes a perfect parallel.

[oldiesman]

We bought our tickets. We thought we were going to "Serve God." We ended up on a ride that led us to "Serve Men."

I disagree with you in part, I believe we WERE serving God too; but it really depended on the commitment of the individual making the decision.

I can't say someone was involved ONLY through Wierwille worship; I can't know their thoughts. I assume (yeah, assume, because I can't know everything) that folks' primary motive was to serve God.

I believe we were serving God and man.

I can't believe that Pressed Down's dymanic songs and lyrics were inspired only through glassy-eyed cultish Wierwille worship.

Dynamic

[Catcup]

I can't believe that Pressed Down's dymanic songs and lyrics were inspired only through glassy-eyed cultish Wierwille worship.

Dynamic

Well, as much as I loved their music and appreciated their hearts, at least one set of lyrics WAS, and marked the turning point from God to man.

"Somewhere in Ohio, a man...."

I rest my case.

[Catcup]

Nope, sorry, I will continue.

By the time that song was written, VP had already begun to usurp God's position in our hearts, as simple thankfulness to another human being began to turn into a reverence for a person who began to take on too much power and authority over our lives, an air of infallibility, and demand our alliegience. The song supported it, and VP capitalized on it.

[oldiesman]

Oh man. Nah, I believe their hearts were right on on that one.

That was a beautiful song.

They were simply thankful and showing respect and thankfulness.

Simple love.

That's the way I see it.

Oh btw, I'm truly Glad VP took a stand, too.

[Nottawayfer]

Oh man. Nah, I believe their hearts were right on on that one.

That was a beautiful song.

They were simply thankful and showing respect and thankfulness.

Simple love.

That's the way I see it.

Oh btw, I'm truly Glad VP took a stand, too.

Oldies,

What is your thought on the terrible things VPW did? All of this good you say happened: Do you think we should dismiss it because love covers a multitude of sins? VPW used love as a reason to sin. He will answer for that some day.

[Catcup]

Oh man. Nah, I believe their hearts were right on on that one.

That was a beautiful song.

They were simply thankful and showing respect and thankfulness.

Simple love.

That's the way I see it.

Oh btw, I'm truly Glad VP took a stand, too.

The song expressed thankfulness, yes. But it was used to support and continually reinforced the entire "Father in the Word" concept, which was incrementally used to throne Wierwille into a spot in people's hearts that should have been reserved for God alone. Eventually the concept was used to strongarm allegience from God to men.

Unfortunately the stand VP took was on the backs of other people from whom he stole and those his ministry destroyed.

[oldiesman]

I believe VP will have to answer to God for his sins. Just like you and me.

Should we dismiss his sins today because love covers a multitude of sins?

I certainly don't think we should MAGNIFY his sins, as some posters do.

On the other hand, I have no problem with someone sharing their personal experience and letting us know their experience of VP.

With that in mind, I believe folks shouldn't have a problem hearing something good about VP either.

I do believe PRESSED DOWN and other Christians were motivated by the true love of God in twi. And as scripture says, just look at the fruit. At that point in time, twi wasn't a rotten group. Well, that was my experience anyway.

[Catcup]

I believe VP will have to answer to God for his sins. Just like you and me.

Should we dismiss his sins today because love covers a multitude of sins?

I certainly don't think we should MAGNIFY his sins, as some posters do.

Which posters, specifically?

I know you to have had a problem accepting the truth of the extent of the damage VPW inflicted. Perhaps the magnitude of his error is shocking to you. That does not mean the poster manified what happened.

I do believe PRESSED DOWN and other Christians were motivated by the true love of God in twi.

I believe in the early days, when VP was allowing them to function and attract people, they were. However, as I and others expressed before, VP allowed them to function in order to siphon off people into his organization, then he gradually usurped God's rightful place, and began to squelch people and pervert the truth.

And as scripture says, just look at the fruit.

We have, and have deemed it putrid.

At that point in time, twi wasn't a rotten group.

At that time, twi was a group of people with varied motivations that was governed by a man who was bent on changing and unifying people's alliegences to himself, slowly, and deliberately.

Well, that was my experience anyway.

Your mileage may vary and you are welcome to your opinion-- just don't be shocked if yours is different from every one else's, and accuse them of exaggerating.

Edited July 17, 2007 by Catcup

[Nottawayfer]

I certainly don't think we should MAGNIFY his sins, as some posters do.

Why not?

His sins are some of the reason that TWI is considered a cult. Gratuitous sex is cultish. "We are the only ones with the truth" type attitudes are cultish. That attitude alone put a lot of people in bondage. They were afraid to leave THE TRUTH. I'm sure there are many organizations out there with TRUTH. I've seen a few at least.

I think magnification of his sins helps some people reconcile the experiences they had in TWI and gives them a clearer picture of why things "just weren't right". I don't belive there is anything wrong with magnifying them. He did what he did in full knowledge. He knew the Bible, and he knew a lot of what he did was WRONG. It was especially wrong when he tried to justify his sins by saying others were possessed.

Edited July 17, 2007 by Nottawayfer

[Nottawayfer]

Should we dismiss his sins today because love covers a multitude of sins?

I believe that not dismissing them is part of the consequences of his sin. He put himself on a platform, and he wanted to be Dr. Wierwille, the man with the TRUTH.

His sins have a long lasting effect on more than himself or even his family. It affected THOUSANDS!!! There are people still trying to heal today from the sins that man commited.

Dismiss them?? HELL NO!!! God ALWAYS has mercy, people don't. VPW knew that as well.

Plain and simple: VPW lived a double life. He lived in a facade.

Edited July 17, 2007 by Nottawayfer

[Nottawayfer]

I guess when it comes down to it, Oldies would revere Jeffrey Dahmer, Adolph Hitler, or Sadaam Hussein if they taught the truth. The rest of what they did doesn't matter if they taught the truth.

[Ham]

I hear that Hussein could sling a pretty good Koran..

for a lie to really work, usually it has to be embellished with truth..

[Catcup]

I hear that Hussein could sling a pretty good Koran..

for a lie to really work, usually it has to be embellished with truth..

You can find quite a few Sunni who still sing his praises and now long for the "good old days"...

[Ham]

No suprise.. even Hitler still has a fan club.

[johniam]

Comparing VP to Hitler is beyond absurd.

Whom did VP kill? He never usurped Christ's place in MY life.

What I'm inferring here is that "I wanted to serve God but that darn VP controlled me so I couldn't do it". I don't think that's going to wash with God. Isn't there a scripture about "no temptation has taken you that isn't common to man, and with the temptation there will be a way to escape"? But VP is the exception; there was no way to escape VP? Not gonna wash.

I agree with Oldies: we WERE serving God, VPs sins or not.

[Nottawayfer]

Comparing VP to Hitler is beyond absurd.

Whom did VP kill? He never usurped Christ's place in MY life.

What I'm inferring here is that "I wanted to serve God but that darn VP controlled me so I couldn't do it". I don't think that's going to wash with God. Isn't there a scripture about "no temptation has taken you that isn't common to man, and with the temptation there will be a way to escape"? But VP is the exception; there was no way to escape VP? Not gonna wash.

I agree with Oldies: we WERE serving God, VPs sins or not.

Evil is evil. It doesn't matter who did it how how bad they did it. VPW deceived people. I know there was/are a lot of good people with great hearts for God no matter what TWI did/does. That doesn't deflate the issues TWI had/has.

If you didn't put him on a pedestal, then you are smarter than I was. Good for you. It took me awhile to learn.

What if you were able to go back to the good ole days where God's Word abides and the TRUTH is known like is never has been, but are older now with kids, maybe a pretty daughter. How would you feel if some "minister" poked her and told her she what she was doing was godly because she was "helping" the man of God? Would you still be support that ministry?

[Nottawayfer]

It seems like VPW's life is being equated with the truth by some. And it seems that some think bringing up his wrongs is equated with trying to nullify the truth.

[Suda]

I believe we were serving God and man.

Sorta sounds like serving God and mammon. Can't do both, not for the long-term anyway. You have to choose which one, and go with it. Most of us that left chose to serve God, and realized we could no longer do so in an organization that worshipped men rather than God.

Suda

[Ham]

"I wanted to serve God but that darn VP controlled me so I couldn't do it".

Not what I'm saying at all.

"I wanted to serve God, and the vicster slowly wormed himself into God's place, asserting that to serve him and his "ministry" to be equaivalent to serving God himself"

Yeah.. I wasn't so smart either.

If you were one of the "mature" ones, you were to "come to the realization that you owed your VERY LIFE to da 'ministry' that taught you 'da word'.."

and like a good follower, I swallowed this twisted, foul batch of kool aid.

at least it wore off eventually.

[Catcup]

Not what I'm saying at all.

"I wanted to serve God, and the vicster slowly wormed himself into God's place, asserting that to serve him and his "ministry" to be equaivalent to serving God himself"

at least it wore off eventually.

You defenders of Trickster Paul Wierwile, I have a request:

"The Word is the Ministry and the Ministry is the Word!" --A famous quote, often repeated publicly by VPW.

Evaluate that statement, please, reconciling it with:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" John 1:1

In the algebra and logic that I learned, things equal to the same thing, are equal to each other.

[What The Hey]

I believe that not dismissing them is part of the consequences of his sin. He put himself on a platform, and he wanted to be Dr. Wierwille, the man with the TRUTH.

His sins have a long lasting effect on more than himself or even his family. It affected THOUSANDS!!! There are people still trying to heal today from the sins that man commited.

Dismiss them?? HELL NO!!! God ALWAYS has mercy, people don't. VPW knew that as well.

Plain and simple: VPW lived a double life. He lived in a facade.

I thought this thread was about the early music in TWI but apparently I am wrong.

ChasUFarley started the thread asking: "What was it once - It's not just the music that's a turn on, but knowing that you know ... the passion of the Word ... What it was ... was really something once." But there is always someone here willing to kick that "dead horse" back to life while blaming other people's inability to heal on the sins of VPW simply because they believe ...

I think magnification of his sins helps some people reconcile the experiences they had in TWI and gives them a clearer picture of why things "just weren't right". I don't belive there is anything wrong with magnifying them.

The question in the back of everyone's mind now is - have his sins become magnified or exaggerated? Your argument is as credible as that "shaved ape baby" newlyweds Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden adopted to make their "gay-family" complete. I say it makes no difference whether one magnifies or exaggerates the sins of VPW or anyone else for that matter - it's still a shaved ape baby!

Now let's stand back and watch how the animal rights activists here become outraged over that adoption, concerned that this upbringing at the hands of these fugitive terror kingpins will "leave young and impressionable "Robert the shaved ape psychologically scarred for life". (i.e. unable to heal.)

Was this really about "the music" to begin with? YOU decide. Some people apparently think so. Pop singer Michael Jackson has spoken out against the bizarre adoption while assuring the public all three of his shaved-ape babies are safe at home in their cribs. Meanwhile, a spokesman for Ashton Kutcher and Demi Moore said the Osama-Saddam incident has no connection with their own decision to adopt a shaved-ape baby.

Your: "World Weekly News" article goes on to describe God as being about six feet tall, caucasian and "neither skinny nor fat." The Lord, however, could not be reached for comment on Osama and Saddam's shaved-ape baby. So why is the "sins of VPW" issue raised? My oh my - HOW GAY OF YOU!

[Ham]

Comparing VP to Hitler is beyond absurd.

I dunno. Many many striking parallels between the two..

Hitler took the credit for giving the German people purpose, prosperity..

Vic took the credit for giving the hippies and spiritually "destitute" people, though christian already, purpose and power in life (though they perhaps already had it)

Hitler was the "father" of da fatherland..

vic was the "father" in da verd..

Hitler and his henchmen slowly slid the noose around the people's necks, and started demanding one small sacrifice after another..

vic and henchmen did the same with the "ministry"..

[Bumpy]

I dunno. Many many striking parallels between the two..

Hitler took the credit for giving the German people purpose, prosperity..

Vic took the credit for giving the hippies and spiritually "destitute" people, though christian already, purpose and power in life (though they perhaps already had it)

Hitler was the "father" of da fatherland..

vic was the "father" in da verd..

Hitler and his henchmen slowly slid the noose around the people's necks, and started demanding one small sacrifice after another..

vic and henchmen did the same with the "ministry"..

Und? Das Kreutz allein waer nicht so schwer, wenn nur das boese Weib nicht waer!

Sorry, but I have no “umlaut” key vorhanden!

[Catcup]

Und? Das Kreutz allein waer nicht so schwer, wenn nur das boese Weib nicht waer!

Sorry, but I have no “umlaut” key vorhanden!

Um, was war es Sie sagte über schlechte schwere Frauen?

:unsure:

Der umlaut Schlüssel ist im Menü des Tropfens unten des "Einsatzsymbol" Teils von Ihrem toolbar. :)