ROFLOL!!! I have to get Sushi to come down here and tell some of his jokes! He has some great ones, but unfortunately I can never remember them. Of course, this works well for him because he can tell them to me over and over again and always get a laugh.
Doggonit, Another Dan - every time you post my picture all I think about is eating !!! I'll post something in the next day or so - I want to give your survey some thought...I know, I know, it's a spot survey - but I really like this stuff because it gets me to thinking about my beliefs - in ways that I haven't addressed them before...or simply haven't thought about what I do believe on something.....ok - what's the fee for getting an extension?
you have to bring candy for everyone when you return I know you know how, since I slipped through security and took a look at your testing123 over in area 51
edit: it's only a "spot survey" because I'm surveying greasespots. They're really not greasespots, of course, but most don't seem to mind the moniker. Don't want to put anyone on the spot. If you're taking your time so you can answer well, who could argue with that?
A soldier, a sailor, a marine and an airman are all riding together in a car. Each is arguing that their branch of the military is the best to serve in. Suddenly, an 18-wheeler hits them head-on and the four die and go to Heaven.
As they arrive at the Heavenly city, St. Peter tells them that before they enter they can make one request of God. Each of the four replies that they want to know which branch of the military is the best.
"A highly unusual request," Peter says, "But I'll see what the Lord says."
Peter is gone a few minutes when a snow white dove flutters in with a piece of gold parchment in its beak.
One of the four takes the parchment, opens it and reads:
DEAR MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES:
EACH OF YOU HAS SERVED YOUR COUNTRY ADMIRABLY AND TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY. YOU EACH SERVE IN THE FINEST BRANCHES OF THE MILITARY THE WORLD HAS EVER SEEN. YOU EACH ARE THE BEST AT WHAT YOU DO AND ALL ARE PROUD OF YOUR SERVICE. NO SERVICE IS TO BE ESTEEMED HIGHER THAN THE OTHERS.
SINCERELY,
GOD (USAF, RETIRED)
BTW, I have to admit that I doubt the authenticity of the above story. It just doesn't seem right to me that God would write in ALL CAPS. But what do I know?
Yes, one of the many great things about my lovely bride is, she always gives great ................................................................................
St. Peter is having a slow day in Heaven. Suddenly, there's a knock at the door. Peter gets up to answer it, but there's no none there. Thinking it was a dream, Peter sits down. Just as he does, there's another knock at the door. He answers it and still no one is there. Just as Peter closes the door, there's another knock. As he answers it, there's a man standing there, but he's slowly fading away.
"Were you the one who kept knocking?," Peter asks.
Moses, Paul and Jesus Christ were out playing golf one day.
On the sixteenth hole, Moses and Paul barely made par. However, JC skipped the ball off a water hazard for a hole in one.
On the seventeenth hole, again, Moses and Paul make par. But on this hole, JC ricochets it off a tree and makes yet another hole in one.
The eighteenth hole was the straw that broke the camel's back. As usual, Moses and Paul struggle to make par. This time, JC skips the ball off a water hazard, ricochets it off a tree, hits a bird and the ball rolls into the hole.
Moses and Paul trudge back to the clubhouse, but JC had other things to attend to. While they were talking, Paul said to Moses, "Who does JC think he is, GOD?"
Moses replied, "No, Jack Nicklaus"
(there are some here who probably "golden bear" to repeat that joke............. )
Jesus Christ is personally aware of my pain. He also knows where I in my weakness have forsaken him, and where I have failed to do the right thing. He is aware of sacrifices I have made. T/F/U
True. And He loves me anyway. Amazing grace!
I believe that it is a Christian's duty, my duty, to love the enemies of God, and to "bless" them. T/F/U
Unsure. Is this a trick question? The text reads "love YOUR enemies" [Luke 6:27] – it doesn't say God's enemies. I believe I should love my enemies. This passage really hit me between the eyes after going through a personal crisis at work. Had a knock-down drag-out fight [of words only] with my supervisor over scheduling work operations – and the argument reverberated throughout the office. I was in such turmoil for a while. Another Christian who sided with my ideas suggested I pray for God's judgment on him – in other words, wishing him harm. It was like he handed me a gun and said "take him out." That Luke 6 passage jumped up and bit me! I couldn't do that – wish him harm. I started to pray for my supervisor, asking God to bless him and his family. Don't know if he ever noticed any blessings but I sure noticed a big change in my attitude at work and toward him. All my anger and frustration just melted away…Oh great, now all my enemies will read this and do something to get me pi$$ed off so I'll bless. Why that gets me so angry just thinking they'd pull something like that…I could just…just…pray for them !
There is coming a day when the universe will be made right, and I will exist as a part of it. T/F/U
True. The book of Revelation is one of my favorite books. Not saying I understand it – but I get the general idea – God's got some neat stuff planned. This current universe is great in my book – so I can only imagine what's next.
Sickness and other bad things that have befallen me are not necessarily because of wrongs I have done. T/F/U
True. Sick happens.
Dinosaurs lived in a period which could be called "the first heaven and earth." T/F/U
Unsure. I believe in the old earth – don't subscribe to the gap theory. I believe in the harmony of science and Scripture – both authored by God. However, exactly how these two fit together is a matter of interpretation.
As a parent, it is never right to discipline a child by hitting him or her. T/F/U
True. I'm a big fan of time out. Five minutes might as well be five days to a kid that has no concept of time.
God can and does heal cancer. T/F/U
True. Besides overt acts of God [which are according to His prerogative] – I believe He works healing through medical professionals as well. There's much I don't understand…about life…sickness…suffering…death.
None of my loved ones who have died have perished forever. T/F/U
Unsure. My best guess from what I've gathered from Scripture [and I could be whacked out on this] is that the soul is meant to have a body. I do not believe in annihilation. In light of heaven and hell, I think each soul will indwell an appropriate eternal body designed to accommodate their eternal state. For those heaven bound, it will be a glorious body, like unto the Lord's – and perhaps tailor made so each can enjoy the particular level of responsibilities and rewards they deserve. For the hell bound, there will be a body fitted to endure hellfire – and experience punishment commensurate with their evil works…Not sure if any of this has answered your question. I'm especially adept at missing the mark, ya know - and have a longsuit in befuddlement .
Ultimately, I will be held responsible for people whom I have hurt. T/F/U
True. Jesus said stumbling blocks will come – but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes [Matthew 18:7]. I think TWI had such a lackadaisical view of sin – minimized it to "broken fellowship." And they had such an arrogant I'm-going-to-heaven-so-whatever-I-do-here-that's-bad-doesn't-really-matter attitude. Did God mean for us to have such attitudes? There's some passages that lead me to think an awareness of our precarious spiritual status may be a good thing – maybe fostering some humility…and even driving us closer to God…I'm thinking of the difference between the prayers of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector in Luke 18. God be merciful to me a sinner!
Requiring a narrative answer:
Cite an example of something that can be done "in the name of Jesus Christ," and explain what it means to do that action in his name.
I used to think "in the name of Jesus Christ" was like an official stamp or formula we were supposed to use in order to validate prayers. I've come to think of it now as being in harmony with Jesus Christ or as something representative of Him – as one acting on His behalf. Sometimes this idea crosses my mind as I'm drafting a post for Grease Spot or having a heart-to-heart talk with someone. Now I'm NOT saying what I'm doing at that moment is inspired of God, or that I'm assuming some kind of authority, or role-playing. It's more like I'm using it as some sort of criteria to keep myself in check: Is what I'm saying in harmony with the wishes of my Lord?What will my words/actions lead people to think about my Lord? Or the ol' standby What would Jesus do? Not saying I'm 100 % in harmony or that I always do the right thing – but it keeps me humble and mentally active. It instills a sense of responsibility. It leads to self-examination and maybe can turn into viewing the other person through the eyes of Jesus. It is becoming less self-centered and more Christ-centered.
Dang, TBone. Your post is amazing, as is your heart. Thank you for sharing it with us. I've got to come up with a Part 3 just to see what you will say. I loved the "perish forever" answer and the "name of Jesus" answer... all of them! But this is my favorite:
I believe that it is a Christian's duty, my duty, to love the enemies of God, and to "bless" them. T/F/U
Unsure. Is this a trick question? The text reads "love YOUR enemies" [Luke 6:27] – it doesn't say God's enemies. I believe I should love my enemies. This passage really hit me between the eyes after going through a personal crisis at work. Had a knock-down drag-out fight [of words only] with my supervisor over scheduling work operations – and the argument reverberated throughout the office. I was in such turmoil for a while. Another Christian who sided with my ideas suggested I pray for God's judgment on him – in other words, wishing him harm. It was like he handed me a gun and said "take him out." That Luke 6 passage jumped up and bit me! I couldn't do that – wish him harm. I started to pray for my supervisor, asking God to bless him and his family. Don't know if he ever noticed any blessings but I sure noticed a big change in my attitude at work and toward him. All my anger and frustration just melted away…Oh great, now all my enemies will read this and do something to get me pi$$ed off so I'll bless. Why that gets me so angry just thinking they'd pull something like that…I could just…just…pray for them biglaugh.gif !
I believe that it is a Christian's duty, my duty, to love the enemies of God, and to "bless" them. T/F/U
Unsure. Is this a trick question? The text reads "love YOUR enemies" [Luke 6:27] – it doesn't say God's enemies. I believe I should love my enemies.
I know that, of course. Yes, it is a trick question. Can we take it a step further. Are God's enemies your enemies? If they are, you should love them. No?
Good point, Another Dan! I would agree with you there. When I wrote that I was thinking more along the lines of the enemies of God on a supernatural level – i.e. Satan and his demonic hosts. I don't think I should love them or bless them….However, I think you have in mind the flesh and blood enemies of God – like Saul, the persecutor of the church until Jesus knocked him off his high horse….Yup – love God's enemies – that would be a tough one – makes my little brouhaha at work look like an exciting game of tiddlywinks.
….And really, I've never been on the receiving end of religious persecution – though I do admit to harboring an arrogant and spiteful attitude toward outside Christians in my TWI daze – that might qualify me as a wimpy persecutor of sorts.
I have some time to respond now to something else you wrote, T:
None of my loved ones who have died have perished forever. T/F/U
Unsure. My best guess from what I've gathered from Scripture [and I could be whacked out on this] is that the soul is meant to have a body. I do not believe in annihilation. In light of heaven and hell, I think each soul will indwell an appropriate eternal body designed to accommodate their eternal state. For those heaven bound, it will be a glorious body, like unto the Lord's – and perhaps tailor made so each can enjoy the particular level of responsibilities and rewards they deserve. For the hell bound, there will be a body fitted to endure hellfire – and experience punishment commensurate with their evil works…Not sure if any of this has answered your question. I'm especially adept at missing the mark, ya know - and have a longsuit in befuddlement biglaugh.gif .
I can hear the scripture citations in the above. You answered the question very well. My purpose, however, was to alleviate my own befuddlement, and you've only put me deeper in it! :wacko: JK
Your use of "fitted" reminded me of another context... It might be 2Tim2... where one vessel is fitted to a certain honorable service, while another to one of less honor. Your ideas are terrifying, TBone... especially "to... experience punishment commensurate with their evil works." But I will not be afraid. God has not appointed me unto wrath, but to salvation. That said, I will fear if I neglect so great a salvation, and turn again to count the blood of Christ as a common thing, and do despite to the spirit of grace.
My unbelieving friends or family... will God not save them? That's a part of my question, and part of why I have to answer, like you, "Unsure."
I don't get where you advance that "the soul is meant to have a body," but all in all, your post has given me pause to think again about some of these eternal matters. Question: The "eternal state" of which you spoke: does it include Today?
I have some time to respond now to something else you wrote, T:
I can hear the scripture citations in the above. You answered the question very well. My purpose, however, was to alleviate my own befuddlement, and you've only put me deeper in it! :wacko: JK
Your use of "fitted" reminded me of another context... It might be 2Tim2... where one vessel is fitted to a certain honorable service, while another to one of less honor. Your ideas are terrifying, TBone... especially "to... experience punishment commensurate with their evil works." But I will not be afraid. God has not appointed me unto wrath, but to salvation. That said, I will fear if I neglect so great a salvation, and turn again to count the blood of Christ as a common thing, and do despite to the spirit of grace.
My unbelieving friends or family... will God not save them? That's a part of my question, and part of why I have to answer, like you, "Unsure."
I don't get where you advance that "the soul is meant to have a body," but all in all, your post has given me pause to think again about some of these eternal matters. Question: The "eternal state" of which you spoke: does it include Today?
Personally, I like what you quoted about the notion of if even one person missed out, then God would have failed - - something to that effect, for how could a loving father condemn His son to eternal hellfire and punishment? To me, there simply has to be a figure of speech there that I haven't come to understand yet. I can see consequences, yes, to purify, to complete whatever lesson went unlearned. But for eternity?
I am but a man, so to speak, so I am sure I cannot fully comprehend God's ways, but I certainly find no comfort in that notion. Peaceful and easily entreated that is not.
Same goes for that concept being applied to those "who are unsaved" per traditional teachings. My grandmother was one of the best people I have ever know. Very kind, very friendly and outgoing. I remember when my mom was in the hospital - she was very sick and spent most of the summer in ICU unconscious. My grandmother knew almost every patient and their families by the end of that summer. No way could it make sense to me that she was condemned to eternal hellfire simply because she was raised to believe differently than someone else.
That is, in a very real sense, what that would come down to. Being condemned because you were raised in a society that did not "preach Christ." Think about it - - how many places are there, even now, where a Bible is illegal? How many people lived and died before a Bible was readily available? How many people lived and died without ever knowing that a man named Jesus ever lived?
Every knee shall bow is still what I hold to. I suppose it could be possible that there are some whose souls are so dark there can be no purification and that their must be some sort of finish for them, but even that I am unsure of. The sages say every man has some redeeming quality, I believe that to be true even if I may not always be able to find that quality within someone.
...Your use of "fitted" reminded me of another context... It might be 2Tim2... where one vessel is fitted to a certain honorable service, while another to one of less honor. Your ideas are terrifying, TBone... especially "to... experience punishment commensurate with their evil works." But I will not be afraid. God has not appointed me unto wrath, but to salvation. That said, I will fear if I neglect so great a salvation, and turn again to count the blood of Christ as a common thing, and do despite to the spirit of grace.
My unbelieving friends or family... will God not save them? That's a part of my question, and part of why I have to answer, like you, "Unsure."
I don't get where you advance that "the soul is meant to have a body," but all in all, your post has given me pause to think again about some of these eternal matters. Question: The "eternal state" of which you spoke: does it include Today?
Well, I did warn you I may be whacked out on this…When I said “fitted” I was suggesting how God may custom fit each soul with a unique body…This has all been conjecture on my part – I was merely thinking out loud on how God would work things out. I believe the soul is immortal and that it was meant to inhabit a body of some kind – a mortal one in this life – an eternal one in the next. I’m thinking the soul [whatever that is] - requires a vessel…a physical means to interact with its environment. Yes, I’m suggesting heaven and hell will be literal, physical places – with dimensions and properties…The way I was using “eternal state” was in reference to one’s final destination – heaven or hell.
From passages like Matthew 10:15; 11:22, 24; 25:14-30; Luke 12: 42-48, I infer there are degrees of punishment and rewards. Now this is all conjecture on my part - variables of punishment or reward could be accomplished internally as well as externally of the recipient, perhaps even by a combination thereof…Take two residents of heaven – one is to receive more rewards than the other. It’s possible God could design a body for the one due more rewards with a greater sensitivity to enjoy the things of heaven than the other person. The perception and enjoyment would all be internally based – there would be no envy, no place for comparison. The same for two people in hell – to the one deserving greater punishment – a body more sensitive to the things of hell.
1. follow what you're saying. You're a very good communicator, BTW
2. respect and (given the qualifications "conjecture" and "may be whacked out") accept it for the best answer you can offer right now.
That was one of the toughest questions from my POV
Abigail:
You've given words to what many pious and thoughtful souls have felt through the ages. Thank you.
When it gets a personal as grandmothers, I have to step back and just settle down a moment. As TB indicated, this is speculative. I know lots of folks who are sure they have the answers. Some find comfort in believing (with scriptural affirmation) that the dead "go to heaven" immediately upon death. Others are equally sure that they don't, and find comfort rather that those who sleep in Christ will be raised up to him, and "so shall we ever be with the Lord." I believe that discussing what the scriptures say and thinking through possible ways of possibly seeing from another POV is useful. It can also be harmful, I suppose, if it causes someone else to stumble.
Some of these things are too hard for me, like you said. My wife has helped me a great deal to see that I don't have to have it all figured out. A stubborn part of me doesn't like that. I want to have God and my destiny all wrapped up in a tidy little box. I want to be able to have God all figured out so that He doesn't have power over me any more. Instead, I can say, "You promised this, now deliver!" That may be an extreme way of saying it, but didn't we "take His promises to the bank, and demand payment on them"? I've had a paradigm shift. I don't make demands on Him, and if I can't be certain what His will is, I'll wait and trust. This Psalm helped me make the shift. The whole Psalm is only 3 verses:
Psalm 131 [[A Song of degrees of David.]]
LORD, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty:
neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.
Surely I have behaved and quieted myself, as a child that is weaned of his mother: my soul is even as a weaned child.
Let Israel hope in the LORD from henceforth and for ever.
That is not entirely true in my case, at least not all the time. I'm working on it. I hope this Psalm speaks to you as it does to me.
It is as I said to Cynic (I think) but then lost sight of. I like to keep it simple. One God, live love. The rest is interesting, but in the grander scheme of things, doesn't necessarily have practicle value to me.
Here are my answers for the first part of Spot Survey, #1, the first post. I would welcome any input.
Note: if you're a newcomer to the thread, feel free to just respond by replying to any comment, or you can do as others have done, and take the survey from the first post, or SpotSurvey2, which is on page 6, post 116, or click here.
Adam and Eve are historical figures, who lived 5000 - 7000 years ago. T/F/U
False. However, I would like to find out that I am wrong.
Jesus of Nazareth uniquely represented the Creator as His Son. T/F/U
True
The risen Jesus Christ is my Lord. T/F/U
True
The Book of Job is allegorical. That is, it attempts to explain human suffering using fictional characters. T/F/U
True
The disciple John, one of "the twelve", wrote 5 Books: John, 1John, 2John, 3John, and Revelation. T/F/U
False
Paul wrote Hebrews. T/F/U
False
Moses wrote Genesis. T/F/U
False
David wrote the 23rd Psalm. T/F/U
Unsure, but I think True
Old friends might then ask the question, "Do you still consider yourself a Bible-believing Christian?" And I would reply, "Yes." I believe literally the passage in Hebrews that says "For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." I believe the Bible falls into this category of "the word of God" as does any other way God chooses to reveal Himself, as He did through the spoken words of the prophets, as He did in Jesus Christ, and has He has done (as it also says in the Book of Hebrews) "in various ways and sundry times." Regarding the books ascribed to John, I find it credible that the "I, John" of Revelation is probably not the John of 1John. I think it is likely that the writer of 1John is the same as the author of the Gospel of John.
T-Bone brought up a good point (I think on another thread) of how we were taught that there is only one way to interpret a passage, and yet, we see writers of the NT interpreting OT verses in a completely new way. This is distressing for a right-brained soul like myself. I almost wish it weren't so! But when Jesus was instructing his disciples (toward the end of his earthy ministry), he told them about "the comforter," who would come in his name, and teach them of things to come. He (or it) would guide them into all truth. That prophecy by the Lord Jesus was partially fulfilled in the writing of the New Testament. That same "Comforter" will guide "whosoever" into that same truth. Jesus then told them, "I will not leave you comfortless; I will come to you."
About 9 minutes on "No gifts -- No God"I think it's a pretty sound viewpointT/F/Uagree or disagree? Is your POV similar or different?
Thank You Dan, I respect Justin Lucas Labrador very much, and I agree with this very sound viewpoint! Thank You for providing itI Love You ((((((Dan)))))), RainbowsGirl
WOW! This thread has blossomed. I got bizzee and lost track. Travelling for the next couple of days, but will check in when I'm back. I want to catch up a bit on the posts and then jump back in.
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Abigail
ROFLOL!!! I have to get Sushi to come down here and tell some of his jokes! He has some great ones, but unfortunately I can never remember them. Of course, this works well for him because he can tell them to me over and over again and always get a laugh.
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T-Bone
Doggonit, Another Dan - every time you post my picture all I think about is eating
!!! I'll post something in the next day or so - I want to give your survey some thought...I know, I know, it's a spot survey - but I really like this stuff because it gets me to thinking about my beliefs - in ways that I haven't addressed them before...or simply haven't thought about what I do believe on something.....ok - what's the fee for getting an extension?
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anotherDan
you have to bring candy for everyone when you return I know you know how, since I slipped through security and took a look at your testing123 over in area 51
edit: it's only a "spot survey" because I'm surveying greasespots. They're really not greasespots, of course, but most don't seem to mind the moniker. Don't want to put anyone on the spot. If you're taking your time so you can answer well, who could argue with that?
BTW, I have to admit that I doubt the authenticity of the above story. It just doesn't seem right to me that God would write in ALL CAPS. But what do I know?
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Sushi
Yes, one of the many great things about my lovely bride is, she always gives great ................................................................................
......................................................... ................................................................................
................................................................
'audience'.
But, for now, this joke.
A priest, a rabbi and a chicken walk into a bar.
Bartender says, "What is this, some kind of joke?"
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anotherDan
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Sushi
Moses, Paul and Jesus Christ were out playing golf one day.
On the sixteenth hole, Moses and Paul barely made par. However, JC skipped the ball off a water hazard for a hole in one.
On the seventeenth hole, again, Moses and Paul make par. But on this hole, JC ricochets it off a tree and makes yet another hole in one.
The eighteenth hole was the straw that broke the camel's back. As usual, Moses and Paul struggle to make par. This time, JC skips the ball off a water hazard, ricochets it off a tree, hits a bird and the ball rolls into the hole.
Moses and Paul trudge back to the clubhouse, but JC had other things to attend to. While they were talking, Paul said to Moses, "Who does JC think he is, GOD?"
Moses replied, "No, Jack Nicklaus"
(there are some here who probably "golden bear" to repeat that joke.............
)
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anotherDan
I know you're out there, 'cause I can hear you breathin'
:drumhit:
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T-Bone
First, here's my extension fee
now onto matters of lesser importance…
Jesus Christ is personally aware of my pain. He also knows where I in my weakness have forsaken him, and where I have failed to do the right thing. He is aware of sacrifices I have made. T/F/U
True. And He loves me anyway. Amazing grace!
I believe that it is a Christian's duty, my duty, to love the enemies of God, and to "bless" them. T/F/U
Unsure. Is this a trick question? The text reads "love YOUR enemies" [Luke 6:27] – it doesn't say God's enemies. I believe I should love my enemies. This passage really hit me between the eyes after going through a personal crisis at work. Had a knock-down drag-out fight [of words only] with my supervisor over scheduling work operations – and the argument reverberated throughout the office. I was in such turmoil for a while. Another Christian who sided with my ideas suggested I pray for God's judgment on him – in other words, wishing him harm. It was like he handed me a gun and said "take him out." That Luke 6 passage jumped up and bit me! I couldn't do that – wish him harm. I started to pray for my supervisor, asking God to bless him and his family. Don't know if he ever noticed any blessings but I sure noticed a big change in my attitude at work and toward him. All my anger and frustration just melted away…Oh great, now all my enemies will read this and do something to get me pi$$ed off so I'll bless. Why that gets me so angry just thinking they'd pull something like that…I could just…just…pray for them
!
There is coming a day when the universe will be made right, and I will exist as a part of it. T/F/U
True. The book of Revelation is one of my favorite books. Not saying I understand it – but I get the general idea – God's got some neat stuff planned. This current universe is great in my book – so I can only imagine what's next.
Sickness and other bad things that have befallen me are not necessarily because of wrongs I have done. T/F/U
True. Sick happens.
Dinosaurs lived in a period which could be called "the first heaven and earth." T/F/U
Unsure. I believe in the old earth – don't subscribe to the gap theory. I believe in the harmony of science and Scripture – both authored by God. However, exactly how these two fit together is a matter of interpretation.
As a parent, it is never right to discipline a child by hitting him or her. T/F/U
True. I'm a big fan of time out. Five minutes might as well be five days to a kid that has no concept of time.
God can and does heal cancer. T/F/U
True. Besides overt acts of God [which are according to His prerogative] – I believe He works healing through medical professionals as well. There's much I don't understand…about life…sickness…suffering…death.
None of my loved ones who have died have perished forever. T/F/U
Unsure. My best guess from what I've gathered from Scripture [and I could be whacked out on this] is that the soul is meant to have a body. I do not believe in annihilation. In light of heaven and hell, I think each soul will indwell an appropriate eternal body designed to accommodate their eternal state. For those heaven bound, it will be a glorious body, like unto the Lord's – and perhaps tailor made so each can enjoy the particular level of responsibilities and rewards they deserve. For the hell bound, there will be a body fitted to endure hellfire – and experience punishment commensurate with their evil works…Not sure if any of this has answered your question. I'm especially adept at missing the mark, ya know - and have a longsuit in befuddlement
.
Ultimately, I will be held responsible for people whom I have hurt. T/F/U
True. Jesus said stumbling blocks will come – but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes [Matthew 18:7]. I think TWI had such a lackadaisical view of sin – minimized it to "broken fellowship." And they had such an arrogant I'm-going-to-heaven-so-whatever-I-do-here-that's-bad-doesn't-really-matter attitude. Did God mean for us to have such attitudes? There's some passages that lead me to think an awareness of our precarious spiritual status may be a good thing – maybe fostering some humility…and even driving us closer to God…I'm thinking of the difference between the prayers of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector in Luke 18. God be merciful to me a sinner!
Requiring a narrative answer:
Cite an example of something that can be done "in the name of Jesus Christ," and explain what it means to do that action in his name.
I used to think "in the name of Jesus Christ" was like an official stamp or formula we were supposed to use in order to validate prayers. I've come to think of it now as being in harmony with Jesus Christ or as something representative of Him – as one acting on His behalf. Sometimes this idea crosses my mind as I'm drafting a post for Grease Spot or having a heart-to-heart talk with someone. Now I'm NOT saying what I'm doing at that moment is inspired of God, or that I'm assuming some kind of authority, or role-playing. It's more like I'm using it as some sort of criteria to keep myself in check: Is what I'm saying in harmony with the wishes of my Lord? What will my words/actions lead people to think about my Lord? Or the ol' standby What would Jesus do? Not saying I'm 100 % in harmony or that I always do the right thing – but it keeps me humble and mentally active. It instills a sense of responsibility. It leads to self-examination and maybe can turn into viewing the other person through the eyes of Jesus. It is becoming less self-centered and more Christ-centered.
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anotherDan
Dang, TBone. Your post is amazing, as is your heart. Thank you for sharing it with us. I've got to come up with a Part 3 just to see what you will say. I loved the "perish forever" answer and the "name of Jesus" answer... all of them! But this is my favorite:
Thanks for the candy!
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T-Bone
And thank you for keeping an eye on T-Bone
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cman
hmm yeah love your enemies
your enemies will be of your own house-mind
there is where the light shines the brightest
in the darkest corners of the heart
turn on love and see
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anotherDan
I know that, of course. Yes, it is a trick question. Can we take it a step further. Are God's enemies your enemies? If they are, you should love them. No?
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T-Bone
Good point, Another Dan! I would agree with you there. When I wrote that I was thinking more along the lines of the enemies of God on a supernatural level – i.e. Satan and his demonic hosts. I don't think I should love them or bless them….However, I think you have in mind the flesh and blood enemies of God – like Saul, the persecutor of the church until Jesus knocked him off his high horse….Yup – love God's enemies – that would be a tough one – makes my little brouhaha at work look like an exciting game of tiddlywinks.
….And really, I've never been on the receiving end of religious persecution – though I do admit to harboring an arrogant and spiteful attitude toward outside Christians in my TWI daze – that might qualify me as a wimpy persecutor of sorts.
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anotherDan
I get that... very good!
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anotherDan
I have some time to respond now to something else you wrote, T:
I can hear the scripture citations in the above. You answered the question very well. My purpose, however, was to alleviate my own befuddlement, and you've only put me deeper in it! :wacko: JK
Your use of "fitted" reminded me of another context... It might be 2Tim2... where one vessel is fitted to a certain honorable service, while another to one of less honor. Your ideas are terrifying, TBone... especially "to... experience punishment commensurate with their evil works." But I will not be afraid. God has not appointed me unto wrath, but to salvation. That said, I will fear if I neglect so great a salvation, and turn again to count the blood of Christ as a common thing, and do despite to the spirit of grace.
My unbelieving friends or family... will God not save them? That's a part of my question, and part of why I have to answer, like you, "Unsure."
I don't get where you advance that "the soul is meant to have a body," but all in all, your post has given me pause to think again about some of these eternal matters. Question: The "eternal state" of which you spoke: does it include Today?
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Abigail
Personally, I like what you quoted about the notion of if even one person missed out, then God would have failed - - something to that effect, for how could a loving father condemn His son to eternal hellfire and punishment? To me, there simply has to be a figure of speech there that I haven't come to understand yet. I can see consequences, yes, to purify, to complete whatever lesson went unlearned. But for eternity?
I am but a man, so to speak, so I am sure I cannot fully comprehend God's ways, but I certainly find no comfort in that notion. Peaceful and easily entreated that is not.
Same goes for that concept being applied to those "who are unsaved" per traditional teachings. My grandmother was one of the best people I have ever know. Very kind, very friendly and outgoing. I remember when my mom was in the hospital - she was very sick and spent most of the summer in ICU unconscious. My grandmother knew almost every patient and their families by the end of that summer. No way could it make sense to me that she was condemned to eternal hellfire simply because she was raised to believe differently than someone else.
That is, in a very real sense, what that would come down to. Being condemned because you were raised in a society that did not "preach Christ." Think about it - - how many places are there, even now, where a Bible is illegal? How many people lived and died before a Bible was readily available? How many people lived and died without ever knowing that a man named Jesus ever lived?
Every knee shall bow is still what I hold to. I suppose it could be possible that there are some whose souls are so dark there can be no purification and that their must be some sort of finish for them, but even that I am unsure of. The sages say every man has some redeeming quality, I believe that to be true even if I may not always be able to find that quality within someone.
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T-Bone
Well, I did warn you I may be whacked out on this…When I said “fitted” I was suggesting how God may custom fit each soul with a unique body…This has all been conjecture on my part – I was merely thinking out loud on how God would work things out. I believe the soul is immortal and that it was meant to inhabit a body of some kind – a mortal one in this life – an eternal one in the next. I’m thinking the soul [whatever that is] - requires a vessel…a physical means to interact with its environment. Yes, I’m suggesting heaven and hell will be literal, physical places – with dimensions and properties…The way I was using “eternal state” was in reference to one’s final destination – heaven or hell.
From passages like Matthew 10:15; 11:22, 24; 25:14-30; Luke 12: 42-48, I infer there are degrees of punishment and rewards. Now this is all conjecture on my part - variables of punishment or reward could be accomplished internally as well as externally of the recipient, perhaps even by a combination thereof…Take two residents of heaven – one is to receive more rewards than the other. It’s possible God could design a body for the one due more rewards with a greater sensitivity to enjoy the things of heaven than the other person. The perception and enjoyment would all be internally based – there would be no envy, no place for comparison. The same for two people in hell – to the one deserving greater punishment – a body more sensitive to the things of hell.
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anotherDan
TB: I would say that I:
1. follow what you're saying. You're a very good communicator, BTW
2. respect and (given the qualifications "conjecture" and "may be whacked out") accept it for the best answer you can offer right now.
That was one of the toughest questions from my POV
Abigail:
You've given words to what many pious and thoughtful souls have felt through the ages. Thank you.
When it gets a personal as grandmothers, I have to step back and just settle down a moment. As TB indicated, this is speculative. I know lots of folks who are sure they have the answers. Some find comfort in believing (with scriptural affirmation) that the dead "go to heaven" immediately upon death. Others are equally sure that they don't, and find comfort rather that those who sleep in Christ will be raised up to him, and "so shall we ever be with the Lord." I believe that discussing what the scriptures say and thinking through possible ways of possibly seeing from another POV is useful. It can also be harmful, I suppose, if it causes someone else to stumble.
Some of these things are too hard for me, like you said. My wife has helped me a great deal to see that I don't have to have it all figured out. A stubborn part of me doesn't like that. I want to have God and my destiny all wrapped up in a tidy little box. I want to be able to have God all figured out so that He doesn't have power over me any more. Instead, I can say, "You promised this, now deliver!" That may be an extreme way of saying it, but didn't we "take His promises to the bank, and demand payment on them"? I've had a paradigm shift. I don't make demands on Him, and if I can't be certain what His will is, I'll wait and trust. This Psalm helped me make the shift. The whole Psalm is only 3 verses:
That is not entirely true in my case, at least not all the time. I'm working on it. I hope this Psalm speaks to you as it does to me.
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Abigail
The Psalm is beatiful, Dan, thanks. :)
It is as I said to Cynic (I think) but then lost sight of. I like to keep it simple. One God, live love. The rest is interesting, but in the grander scheme of things, doesn't necessarily have practicle value to me.
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anotherDan
Abigail, your presence here blesses my heart.
"One God, live love." That's it for me, too.
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anotherDan
Here are my answers for the first part of Spot Survey, #1, the first post. I would welcome any input.
Note: if you're a newcomer to the thread, feel free to just respond by replying to any comment, or you can do as others have done, and take the survey from the first post, or SpotSurvey2, which is on page 6, post 116, or click here.
Old friends might then ask the question, "Do you still consider yourself a Bible-believing Christian?" And I would reply, "Yes." I believe literally the passage in Hebrews that says "For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." I believe the Bible falls into this category of "the word of God" as does any other way God chooses to reveal Himself, as He did through the spoken words of the prophets, as He did in Jesus Christ, and has He has done (as it also says in the Book of Hebrews) "in various ways and sundry times." Regarding the books ascribed to John, I find it credible that the "I, John" of Revelation is probably not the John of 1John. I think it is likely that the writer of 1John is the same as the author of the Gospel of John.
T-Bone brought up a good point (I think on another thread) of how we were taught that there is only one way to interpret a passage, and yet, we see writers of the NT interpreting OT verses in a completely new way. This is distressing for a right-brained soul like myself. I almost wish it weren't so! But when Jesus was instructing his disciples (toward the end of his earthy ministry), he told them about "the comforter," who would come in his name, and teach them of things to come. He (or it) would guide them into all truth. That prophecy by the Lord Jesus was partially fulfilled in the writing of the New Testament. That same "Comforter" will guide "whosoever" into that same truth. Jesus then told them, "I will not leave you comfortless; I will come to you."
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anotherDan
About 9 minutes on "No gifts -- No God"
I think it's a pretty sound viewpoint
T/F/U
agree or disagree? Is your POV similar or different?
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RainbowsGirl
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LindaR
WOW! This thread has blossomed. I got bizzee and lost track. Travelling for the next couple of days, but will check in when I'm back. I want to catch up a bit on the posts and then jump back in.
Later!
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