usaid: He proves nothing in that regard. He only proves that he believes in God, and that he mistakes that belief as proof by default. Try again.
I disagree. I think Decarte makes the most logical point one can come too. I think Decarte is terrific.
Garth u said: Untrue: The reference point that atheists refer to is verifiable proof.
Yeah right Garth. Verifiable proof like: Earnst Haekels fake drawings. Moths that were pinned to a tree and photographed, Human heads that were attached to orangatan skeletons and "discovered" and much much more Verifiable Proof. LMAO A famous person recently said, and I love this quote, Evolution is about one notch above Scientology in Scientific Rigor. By the way Garth, I have read Dawkins, some of his stuff, it doesnt even make sense.
u said: And how does my 'Calvin quote' suit your purpose?
Just from the standpoint I cant stand Calvin and to not presuppose that anyone else who doesnt like Calvin may not view it quit like I do.
u said: Ironically enough, so did Calvin, particularly in reference to his wanting heretics killed. ... you might want to rethink your premise because of this.
yeah well God doing something doesn't give others the right to try to emulate what they think that behavior is for selfish interests. Things like the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah, and other things establish God's judgement. Neither is it fair to say when death and war occur that man can attribute it to God; for God did not will man's fall in the garden of eden as a Calvinist might suggest. The fact that we live in grace, in no way diminishes the importance of judgement. People mistake death and the wrath of God as tho God is something that Dawkins describes. What is the wrath of God? It is I believe Garth, when God walks away. When God walks away and turns his back, people kill other people.
U said: Well put, Larry!!
hack hack cough cough, cut me some slack. Yeah well just cause I dont have political correctness down doesnt mean I dont get out. I get out, I study somethings, but I dont pay much attention to politics and harranging that goes on over such things.
Yeah I dont know many of them, still i do know a few.
Larry, I have actually watched on you tube and other sources lengthy knock down drag out brawls on the topic, so I am a versed on the topic.
Well, may I suggest you visit this board. It might broaden your perspective. Granted, you might find some "knock down, drag out brawls" even there but, I've seen worse at some Christian boards.
LarryandMoore: Thanks i might venture over there but GS has always been my fav spot :)
ExTwi people are profoundly eloquet and considerate people. In fact, most of them were that way when they were in TWI too. Perhaps that might explain yet another reason why I never fit in with them all that well. I may in fact be just not that "considerate" It's not like I try not to be considerate Larry, because I try real hard.
It's not like I try not to be considerate Larry, because I try real hard.
I believe ya. I'm not meaning to be hard on you and I don't mean to be offensive when I say -- you seem to be a bit naive about atheists -- what they think -- how they live their lives. Don't settle for the "boxed" version of atheism/atheists. Get to really know them. Accept them as they are, not as you would wish them to be.
I believe ya. I'm not meaning to be hard on you and I don't mean to be offensive when I say -- you
Thanks i appreciate that.
Here's the thing I think about athiests (evolutionists) and maybe you can help me with that.
I wonder if it is possible to save them from eternal death, as in lights out and let me see if I can explain that. You know how the concept of believe and call upon God is so profoundly simple? Well an athiest of course doesn't beleive at all in God. So how would that effect one since there is a resurrection of the "just and unjust"? An athiest could wake up in the next life and what would there thought be? There thought would be (one would think) Well they just evolved. I mean there is no way to get an athiest out of that arguement right? Thus, how could one be saved?
Here's the thing I think about athiests (evolutionists)
Not all evolutionists also happen to be atheists.
and maybe you can help me with that.
I'll try.
I wonder if it is possible to save them from eternal death, as in lights out and let me see if I can explain that.
With God -- all things are possible.
You know how the concept of believe and call upon God is so profoundly simple? Well an athiest of course doesn't beleive at all in God. So how would that effect one since there is a resurrection of the "just and unjust"? An athiest could wake up in the next life and what would there thought be? There thought would be (one would think) Well they just evolved. I mean there is no way to get an athiest out of that arguement right? Thus, how could one be saved?
Lot's of questions there. You bring up the "just" and the "unjust". Have you not read the parable of the good Samaritan? Who was the good Samaritan -- the ones who walked past the man in need or the one who stopped and helped him out? Consider that parable and then apply it to atheists. I've met many an atheists who would go out of their way to help a stranger. Does that not make them "just"? On the other hand -- I've met many a Christian who couldn't be bothered helping out a stranger. Does that make them "unjust"?
I guess I've just taken the position of letting God be God -- the judge of men's hearts. I don't know how to be a fair judge consistently. Sometimes I am -- sometimes I'm not.
I guess I've just taken the position of letting God be God -- the judge of men's hearts. I don't know how to be a fair judge consistently. Sometimes I am -- sometimes I'm not.
Hope that helps. :)
u said: Not all evolutionists also happen to be atheists. yeah I am aware of that.
Excellent point Larry Ie( the stuff I quoted you saying) So what your saying is there is no such thing as a garden variety athiest?
I know this guy who is a Doctor, very brilliant man. Early in his life he liked his Charles Darwin, but he also likes his bible. He was I believe a UU guy early in his life. . Last seen he was parading in and out of Assmeblies Churches and other places. He is one of my best friends. A truly terrific man. Poor Fred, never really found a church that eased his mind. Which is why I think the best place to go to church is always first in your prayer closet.
i dont get in arguements with athiests either. If I read a book and find insconsistencies I do not mind pointing them tho.
Another dan: u said: God can be just as displeased with theists as with atheists. I myself sometime prefer an atheists company to religous folks! Depends on the atheist, of course! Best of all is when brethren dwell together in harmony.
Yeah I dont know many athiests. I do know a few agnostics. So I really can't tell you much about getting in knock down drags outs with them. I think because of the Calvin thread your maybe thinking I am always a fire starter too dan, really I am not that much. Shouldn't a place where doctines are discussed by many different people have some major disagreements tho? I think that is healthy and should be expected.
I was speaking, another dan, from mostly watching some of these conventions where the topic of God is talked about and you get athiests and Liberty U or Christians cross firing. The diatribes and exchanges do get very very heated.
Athiesm and Evoloution actually has political impetus today. It is part of a political agenda. I dont know if you guys are aware of that. It doesn't have platform impetus with the democrats but it has people in places that propel it everywhere. Judges, journalists, sceintists and others. Evolution in my view is NOT A SCIENCE. I think it is a religion.
Bramble u said:
I think the idea that 'my beliefs are correct and every human should follow them' is actually a destructive way to think, and leads to enmity when others choose not to think the 'right' way. I think it weakens personal relationships, families, communities...
I agree with that statement bramble i really do. BUT WHY DOES IT ALWAYS HAVE TO BE ABOUT "EVERY HUMAN SHOULD FOLLOW THEM" You see, that statement you said, that where cultist wrong thinking takes people. The end is always with a person. When we talk shouldn't a logical arguement leave someone at the feet of Jesus? That's what I think. So I dont think arguing is necessarily bad. Jesus got in some scraps with the leaders there right? There is however, a problem with what you just said too though. The way some people think ie (evolution/Calvinism) is very very destructive. In fact, there is a book by Richard Wiekart that traces evolution roots to Nazi facism and eugenics. Not even evolutionists, will argue much that eugenics movement is the evolutionary child. Evolutionists just dont like to take credit for eugenics when it goes awry. I mean Earnst Haekel was a big time into eugenics and evolution. The quack doctor drew up fake drawings to prove evolution. Eugenics today just has different names like cloning and stuff like that. Don't get me wrong I am not saying cloning is the same as Eugenics, I am just saying that in the wrong hands it could be like eugenics. What I am trying to say Bramble is this: When things in a country go real real bad, there is almost always an ideology behind what went wrong. The greatest mass murders in the last century all where evolutionists: Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, Nazi Germany.
This is why I think topics of this nature are important.
Many religions of the Book(Christian and other) do feel their way is the only way, and view those who believe differently as less good(or even as possessed, or evil) or even dangerous. Those unbelievers get far less respect. WHether that is a characteristic of a cult, I don't know. I guess I see cults like the TWI of the nineties, manipulative and micromanaging.
I don't agree with it, but I have been involved in 2 Christian groups that did think this way in my life time. As a child I was really glad my family was the 'right' religion! As a young adult in TWI I was really glad I had the truth like few others had it.
I'm not a Bible creation believer, and I think there are many non athiests who are not Bible Creationists. Pagan, Wiccans, many liberal Christians, non Chrisitian religions...*shrug* I don't think it is an indicator of evilness.
I'm not a Bible creation believer, and I think there are many non athiests who are not Bible Creationists.
Not really sure what you mean Bramble, but I agree that Genesis is not about the creation of the heavens and earth that we call 'planet earth' and sky and space, stars and the rest.
My head was spinning through some of this stuff, and I wanted to bounce a couple other things off you.
Jesus talked a lot about a place of outer darkness. Revelation talks about a second death, of which those who only have a first resurrection Rev. 20:6 are in good shape. Then the bible talks about a lake of fire. Whats the lake of fire? There is a thread on it here. Does it mean lights out forever? I think it could mean that. Somewhere in the second death and the lake of fire I think there is something in both those concepts which is decidedly negative. My stab on it is this? I think it has a component where there is somewhat of a loss (especially in the second death) The lake of fire being even worse. Whats that loss? I think it would be in my stab, the reduction of a persons IQ to maybe that of a 4 year old or a 7 year old or 10 year old whatever the case may be. Perhaps some of it might just be arrested development an inability to grow in the knowledge of God. Perhaps some of it may be separation issues. The second death cannot be a lights out death or the bible would not describe it “on such the second death hath no power” It is however a death of something of some magnitude.
The positive of the same book however are to the people that “overcometh” stuff. I suppose that would be the short laundry list of the to do’s or not to do’s of NT dynamics. For simple starters how about the many people here who overcame TWI. You know there were and still are some people out of TWI who really love the Lord. Who in particular? Well Pawtuckets wife for one. She came and talked to me once and that’s what I recollect her talking about, that it boils down to loving the Lord.
I happen to think Larry that the whole TWI mess, is a real tear jerker up in heaven with God and Jesus for this reason: Some of these people really loved the Lord. Its sometimes hard for me to talk her at GS. There is still a lot of pain here that people have and I have some of that same pain too. . I think the good news is that if one like myself and others can look at it as a graduation ceremony from the school of hard knocks and overcoming, well then that’s a good thing and nothing to be ashamed about.
Interestingly the last time I left GS for a few years, some guy was posting to me and kind of making fun of my posts so I said well nuff of that I will wander elsewhere. I don’t mean to appear bullheaded but on somethings I am stuck or fixed in my view. I do believe that “truth” is a fixed reference point.
u said: I guess I see cults like the TWI of the nineties, manipulative and micromanaging.
Well yeah certainly so I agree. I think a cult can also be a permissive society too though. (Like Calvinim)
u said: Many religions of the Book(Christian and other) do feel their way is the only way, and view those who believe differently as less good(or even as possessed, or evil) or even dangerous.
Yeah but here's the thing Bramble. I think there are some general tenents of Christianity that are pretty well established wether in Catholic or Lutheran or Evangelical or Pentacostal/ Assemblies of God places that vary very little. I dont think that any of these organizations feel that "their way is the only way" ie(that an Evangelical would dismiss a Pentacostal/Assemblies or whatever the case may be) I mean I know for a fact I dont, I know many Catholics and have good freindship with them.
u said: I'm not a Bible creation believer, and I think there are many non athiests who are not Bible Creationists. Pagan, Wiccans, many liberal Christians, non Chrisitian religions...*shrug* I don't think it is an indicator of evilness.
To which I have to disagree. I mean the concept of thinking that Wicans have as much redeemable qualities as bible believing Christians is a little too much to take. I mean that's not what basic Christianity101 teaches. Niether, however, do you or should you see someone who is a Christian throwing people off buildings because they are the ones you mentioned.
usaid:basic Christianity101......what is that sky4it? to you i mean....
you know cman the basic goods like Jesus is the way the truth and the life. John 3:16 and the like and John 3:17 " that God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved" and John 3:18 "he that believeth on him is not condemned but he that believeth not is condemned already......"
You know thats kind of just the basic goods that God offered in Jesus.
I happen to think Larry that the whole TWI mess, is a real tear jerker up in heaven with God and Jesus for this reason: Some of these people really loved the Lord.
I think some of "these people" still love the Lord. Whether you're referring to those still associated with TWI or those that are members of GS I cannot tell but, I believe it's just as true either way.
Its sometimes hard for me to talk her at GS. There is still a lot of pain here that people have and I have some of that same pain too. . I think the good news is that if one like myself and others can look at it as a graduation ceremony from the school of hard knocks and overcoming, well then that’s a good thing and nothing to be ashamed about.
Ok. That's reasonable.
Interestingly the last time I left GS for a few years, some guy was posting to me and kind of making fun of my posts so I said well nuff of that I will wander elsewhere.
You'll get that just about anywhere you go. You can always choose to ignore such a person and that way won't cut yourself off from the fellowship you do enjoy with others.
I don’t mean to appear bullheaded but on somethings I am stuck or fixed in my view. I do believe that “truth” is a fixed reference point.
The "truth" is different to different people. But whatever your "truth" is and it works for you then hold on to it. It really doesn't matter if your "truth" is accepted by anyone else.
Here's a question for you (mind ya I'm still thinking about the rest of your post).
If YOU were the only one to ever believe God raised Jesus from the dead and confessed him as Lord of life (that's an interesting phrase to think about in itself) would God still have sent him and would Jesus still have sacrificed himself for you?
u said: If YOU were the only one to ever believe God raised Jesus from the dead and confessed him as Lord of life (that's an interesting phrase to think about in itself) would God still have sent him and would Jesus still have sacrificed himself for you?
Well its a good thing that doesnt exist huh? Thats kind of like asking a guy who blew up himself with a grenade to save his buddy if he did it just for his buddy, I mean maybe he also did it to help his country win the war.
I guess that if he would have had to do that so that I would be saved I would have to think the answer is yes he would have sacrificed himself for me.
If however there was only one person could God just pull a Enoch and lift him out of there? dont know the answer to that question.
u said: If YOU were the only one to ever believe God raised Jesus from the dead and confessed him as Lord of life (that's an interesting phrase to think about in itself) would God still have sent him and would Jesus still have sacrificed himself for you?
Well its a good thing that doesnt exist huh? Thats kind of like asking a guy who blew up himself with a grenade to save his buddy if he did it just for his buddy, I mean maybe he also did it to help his country win the war.
I guess that if he would have had to do that so that I would be saved I would have to think the answer is yes he would have sacrificed himself for me.
If however there was only one person could God just pull a Enoch and lift him out of there? dont know the answer to that question.
I suppose you'd have a valid point if the buddy happened to be the reason why the war was won. It's a little difficult for me to grasp your analogy. I mean I can't imagine a person thinking to himself: Oh boy! If I fall on that grenade and save my buddy I'll also be helping my country win the war. That presumes that the man himself would not be able to help his country win the war by staying alive. And also doesn't allow for the possibility that the man saved might be a coward and actually helps his country lose the war.
Anyways, in regards to the portion of your (previous) post that I didn't respond to. I've decided that subject is best saved for another thread and perhaps another time for me personally. I think I've monopolized this thread enuf.
I hope you'll continue to post here at GS even if someone should decide to make fun of you. But if you decide not to -- well -- go in peace.
u said: The "truth" is different to different people. But whatever your "truth" is and it works for you then hold on to it. It really doesn't matter if your "truth" is accepted by anyone else.
Does this mean that you think 2 or more people can't come or dont come to a point of agreeement on what the truth is?
Let me tell you how I see that: Let's say for example I know one scripture (and we all agree that God's word is truth. ie( Thy word is truth) So we all believe it to be the truth. From any other scripture(not the one listed in particular) , I have experience in application in points 1,2 & 7. Another guy has application experience in points 1,3 &8. Another guy in points 1,4, 5. My view is that we all have common truth and the rest we learn from each other or along the way.
Now the application of scripture, its not unlike how the II Peter 1:10 principle on the bottom of my post is a poision pill to Calvinism. Or unlike how the sincerity and leaven scriptrues of the bible ended being poision pills to VPW. I do believe that we grow in the knowledge of God. Since we are limited it will always be a growing knowledge. No one gets a black box because we are limited in knowledge as to what we can know.
I just read your last post and thanks Larry talk to you around the corner.
u said: I'm not a Bible creation believer, and I think there are many non athiests who are not Bible Creationists. Pagan, Wiccans, many liberal Christians, non Chrisitian religions...*shrug* I don't think it is an indicator of evilness.
To which I have to disagree. I mean the concept of thinking that Wicans have as much redeemable qualities as bible believing Christians is a little too much to take. I mean that's not what basic Christianity101 teaches. Niether, however, do you or should you see someone who is a Christian throwing people off buildings because they are the ones you mentioned.
Having seen many Bible believing Christians( 20 yrs TWI) with out redeemable qualities, and others of different faiths and no faith with redeemable qualities, I don't believe Christianity makes better quality people. I think their view of other religions as inferior actually makes them less admirable and more dangerous to say, families and communities, than those with more respect toward others with different beliefs, because seeing others as inferior leads to treating them as inferiors.
Christianity 101 may teach that Christianity is the superior religion and all who participate in other religions do not have as much redeemable qualities(not sure what those are), but obviously I don't believe that, or I would still be a Christian.
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anotherDan
sky, thanks for the clarification!
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sky4it
anotherdan: see above post
Larrynmoore:
Yeah I dont know many of them, still i do know a few.
Larry, I have actually watched on you tube and other sources lengthy knock down drag out brawls on the topic, so I am a versed on the topic.
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anotherDan
I already did!
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sky4it
Garth:
usaid: He proves nothing in that regard. He only proves that he believes in God, and that he mistakes that belief as proof by default. Try again.
I disagree. I think Decarte makes the most logical point one can come too. I think Decarte is terrific.
Garth u said: Untrue: The reference point that atheists refer to is verifiable proof.
Yeah right Garth. Verifiable proof like: Earnst Haekels fake drawings. Moths that were pinned to a tree and photographed, Human heads that were attached to orangatan skeletons and "discovered" and much much more Verifiable Proof. LMAO A famous person recently said, and I love this quote, Evolution is about one notch above Scientology in Scientific Rigor. By the way Garth, I have read Dawkins, some of his stuff, it doesnt even make sense.
u said: And how does my 'Calvin quote' suit your purpose?
Just from the standpoint I cant stand Calvin and to not presuppose that anyone else who doesnt like Calvin may not view it quit like I do.
u said: Ironically enough, so did Calvin, particularly in reference to his wanting heretics killed. ... you might want to rethink your premise because of this.
yeah well God doing something doesn't give others the right to try to emulate what they think that behavior is for selfish interests. Things like the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah, and other things establish God's judgement. Neither is it fair to say when death and war occur that man can attribute it to God; for God did not will man's fall in the garden of eden as a Calvinist might suggest. The fact that we live in grace, in no way diminishes the importance of judgement. People mistake death and the wrath of God as tho God is something that Dawkins describes. What is the wrath of God? It is I believe Garth, when God walks away. When God walks away and turns his back, people kill other people.
U said: Well put, Larry!!
hack hack cough cough, cut me some slack. Yeah well just cause I dont have political correctness down doesnt mean I dont get out. I get out, I study somethings, but I dont pay much attention to politics and harranging that goes on over such things.
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Larry N Moore
Well, may I suggest you visit this board. It might broaden your perspective. Granted, you might find some "knock down, drag out brawls" even there but, I've seen worse at some Christian boards.
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anotherDan
Wow, Larry. That place is put together well. I might even depart to go there!
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sky4it
Garth see above
LarryandMoore: Thanks i might venture over there but GS has always been my fav spot :)
ExTwi people are profoundly eloquet and considerate people. In fact, most of them were that way when they were in TWI too. Perhaps that might explain yet another reason why I never fit in with them all that well. I may in fact be just not that "considerate" It's not like I try not to be considerate Larry, because I try real hard.
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Larry N Moore
I believe ya. I'm not meaning to be hard on you and I don't mean to be offensive when I say -- you seem to be a bit naive about atheists -- what they think -- how they live their lives. Don't settle for the "boxed" version of atheism/atheists. Get to really know them. Accept them as they are, not as you would wish them to be.
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sky4it
LarrynMoore:
u said:
I believe ya. I'm not meaning to be hard on you and I don't mean to be offensive when I say -- you
Thanks i appreciate that.
Here's the thing I think about athiests (evolutionists) and maybe you can help me with that.
I wonder if it is possible to save them from eternal death, as in lights out and let me see if I can explain that. You know how the concept of believe and call upon God is so profoundly simple? Well an athiest of course doesn't beleive at all in God. So how would that effect one since there is a resurrection of the "just and unjust"? An athiest could wake up in the next life and what would there thought be? There thought would be (one would think) Well they just evolved. I mean there is no way to get an athiest out of that arguement right? Thus, how could one be saved?
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Larry N Moore
Not all evolutionists also happen to be atheists.
I'll try.With God -- all things are possible.
Lot's of questions there. You bring up the "just" and the "unjust". Have you not read the parable of the good Samaritan? Who was the good Samaritan -- the ones who walked past the man in need or the one who stopped and helped him out? Consider that parable and then apply it to atheists. I've met many an atheists who would go out of their way to help a stranger. Does that not make them "just"? On the other hand -- I've met many a Christian who couldn't be bothered helping out a stranger. Does that make them "unjust"?
I guess I've just taken the position of letting God be God -- the judge of men's hearts. I don't know how to be a fair judge consistently. Sometimes I am -- sometimes I'm not.
Hope that helps. :)
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sky4it
u said: Not all evolutionists also happen to be atheists. yeah I am aware of that.
Excellent point Larry Ie( the stuff I quoted you saying) So what your saying is there is no such thing as a garden variety athiest?
I know this guy who is a Doctor, very brilliant man. Early in his life he liked his Charles Darwin, but he also likes his bible. He was I believe a UU guy early in his life. . Last seen he was parading in and out of Assmeblies Churches and other places. He is one of my best friends. A truly terrific man. Poor Fred, never really found a church that eased his mind. Which is why I think the best place to go to church is always first in your prayer closet.
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Larry N Moore
I'm afraid of the dark. ;)
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Larry N Moore
Well, if all you have in your garden are tomatoes then I guess your garden doesn't have much variety to it.
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Bramble
Many religions of the Book(Christian and other) do feel their way is the only way, and view those who believe differently as less good(or even as possessed, or evil) or even dangerous. Those unbelievers get far less respect. WHether that is a characteristic of a cult, I don't know. I guess I see cults like the TWI of the nineties, manipulative and micromanaging.
I don't agree with it, but I have been involved in 2 Christian groups that did think this way in my life time. As a child I was really glad my family was the 'right' religion! As a young adult in TWI I was really glad I had the truth like few others had it.
I'm not a Bible creation believer, and I think there are many non athiests who are not Bible Creationists. Pagan, Wiccans, many liberal Christians, non Chrisitian religions...*shrug* I don't think it is an indicator of evilness.
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cman
Not really sure what you mean Bramble, but I agree that Genesis is not about the creation of the heavens and earth that we call 'planet earth' and sky and space, stars and the rest.
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sky4it
LarrynMoore:
My head was spinning through some of this stuff, and I wanted to bounce a couple other things off you.
Jesus talked a lot about a place of outer darkness. Revelation talks about a second death, of which those who only have a first resurrection Rev. 20:6 are in good shape. Then the bible talks about a lake of fire. Whats the lake of fire? There is a thread on it here. Does it mean lights out forever? I think it could mean that. Somewhere in the second death and the lake of fire I think there is something in both those concepts which is decidedly negative. My stab on it is this? I think it has a component where there is somewhat of a loss (especially in the second death) The lake of fire being even worse. Whats that loss? I think it would be in my stab, the reduction of a persons IQ to maybe that of a 4 year old or a 7 year old or 10 year old whatever the case may be. Perhaps some of it might just be arrested development an inability to grow in the knowledge of God. Perhaps some of it may be separation issues. The second death cannot be a lights out death or the bible would not describe it “on such the second death hath no power” It is however a death of something of some magnitude.
The positive of the same book however are to the people that “overcometh” stuff. I suppose that would be the short laundry list of the to do’s or not to do’s of NT dynamics. For simple starters how about the many people here who overcame TWI. You know there were and still are some people out of TWI who really love the Lord. Who in particular? Well Pawtuckets wife for one. She came and talked to me once and that’s what I recollect her talking about, that it boils down to loving the Lord.
I happen to think Larry that the whole TWI mess, is a real tear jerker up in heaven with God and Jesus for this reason: Some of these people really loved the Lord. Its sometimes hard for me to talk her at GS. There is still a lot of pain here that people have and I have some of that same pain too. . I think the good news is that if one like myself and others can look at it as a graduation ceremony from the school of hard knocks and overcoming, well then that’s a good thing and nothing to be ashamed about.
Interestingly the last time I left GS for a few years, some guy was posting to me and kind of making fun of my posts so I said well nuff of that I will wander elsewhere. I don’t mean to appear bullheaded but on somethings I am stuck or fixed in my view. I do believe that “truth” is a fixed reference point.
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sky4it
Larry: ( see above post)
Bramble:
u said: I guess I see cults like the TWI of the nineties, manipulative and micromanaging.
Well yeah certainly so I agree. I think a cult can also be a permissive society too though. (Like Calvinim)
u said: Many religions of the Book(Christian and other) do feel their way is the only way, and view those who believe differently as less good(or even as possessed, or evil) or even dangerous.
Yeah but here's the thing Bramble. I think there are some general tenents of Christianity that are pretty well established wether in Catholic or Lutheran or Evangelical or Pentacostal/ Assemblies of God places that vary very little. I dont think that any of these organizations feel that "their way is the only way" ie(that an Evangelical would dismiss a Pentacostal/Assemblies or whatever the case may be) I mean I know for a fact I dont, I know many Catholics and have good freindship with them.
u said: I'm not a Bible creation believer, and I think there are many non athiests who are not Bible Creationists. Pagan, Wiccans, many liberal Christians, non Chrisitian religions...*shrug* I don't think it is an indicator of evilness.
To which I have to disagree. I mean the concept of thinking that Wicans have as much redeemable qualities as bible believing Christians is a little too much to take. I mean that's not what basic Christianity101 teaches. Niether, however, do you or should you see someone who is a Christian throwing people off buildings because they are the ones you mentioned.
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cman
basic Christianity101......
what is that sky4it?
to you i mean....
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sky4it
cman:
usaid:basic Christianity101......what is that sky4it? to you i mean....
you know cman the basic goods like Jesus is the way the truth and the life. John 3:16 and the like and John 3:17 " that God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved" and John 3:18 "he that believeth on him is not condemned but he that believeth not is condemned already......"
You know thats kind of just the basic goods that God offered in Jesus.
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Larry N Moore
I think some of "these people" still love the Lord. Whether you're referring to those still associated with TWI or those that are members of GS I cannot tell but, I believe it's just as true either way.
Ok. That's reasonable.You'll get that just about anywhere you go. You can always choose to ignore such a person and that way won't cut yourself off from the fellowship you do enjoy with others.
The "truth" is different to different people. But whatever your "truth" is and it works for you then hold on to it. It really doesn't matter if your "truth" is accepted by anyone else.
Here's a question for you (mind ya I'm still thinking about the rest of your post).
If YOU were the only one to ever believe God raised Jesus from the dead and confessed him as Lord of life (that's an interesting phrase to think about in itself) would God still have sent him and would Jesus still have sacrificed himself for you?
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sky4it
Larry:
u said: If YOU were the only one to ever believe God raised Jesus from the dead and confessed him as Lord of life (that's an interesting phrase to think about in itself) would God still have sent him and would Jesus still have sacrificed himself for you?
Well its a good thing that doesnt exist huh? Thats kind of like asking a guy who blew up himself with a grenade to save his buddy if he did it just for his buddy, I mean maybe he also did it to help his country win the war.
I guess that if he would have had to do that so that I would be saved I would have to think the answer is yes he would have sacrificed himself for me.
If however there was only one person could God just pull a Enoch and lift him out of there? dont know the answer to that question.
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Larry N Moore
I suppose you'd have a valid point if the buddy happened to be the reason why the war was won. It's a little difficult for me to grasp your analogy. I mean I can't imagine a person thinking to himself: Oh boy! If I fall on that grenade and save my buddy I'll also be helping my country win the war. That presumes that the man himself would not be able to help his country win the war by staying alive. And also doesn't allow for the possibility that the man saved might be a coward and actually helps his country lose the war.
Anyways, in regards to the portion of your (previous) post that I didn't respond to. I've decided that subject is best saved for another thread and perhaps another time for me personally. I think I've monopolized this thread enuf.
I hope you'll continue to post here at GS even if someone should decide to make fun of you. But if you decide not to -- well -- go in peace.
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sky4it
Larry see above and one more point:
u said: The "truth" is different to different people. But whatever your "truth" is and it works for you then hold on to it. It really doesn't matter if your "truth" is accepted by anyone else.
Does this mean that you think 2 or more people can't come or dont come to a point of agreeement on what the truth is?
Let me tell you how I see that: Let's say for example I know one scripture (and we all agree that God's word is truth. ie( Thy word is truth) So we all believe it to be the truth. From any other scripture(not the one listed in particular) , I have experience in application in points 1,2 & 7. Another guy has application experience in points 1,3 &8. Another guy in points 1,4, 5. My view is that we all have common truth and the rest we learn from each other or along the way.
Now the application of scripture, its not unlike how the II Peter 1:10 principle on the bottom of my post is a poision pill to Calvinism. Or unlike how the sincerity and leaven scriptrues of the bible ended being poision pills to VPW. I do believe that we grow in the knowledge of God. Since we are limited it will always be a growing knowledge. No one gets a black box because we are limited in knowledge as to what we can know.
I just read your last post and thanks Larry talk to you around the corner.
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Bramble
Having seen many Bible believing Christians( 20 yrs TWI) with out redeemable qualities, and others of different faiths and no faith with redeemable qualities, I don't believe Christianity makes better quality people. I think their view of other religions as inferior actually makes them less admirable and more dangerous to say, families and communities, than those with more respect toward others with different beliefs, because seeing others as inferior leads to treating them as inferiors.
Christianity 101 may teach that Christianity is the superior religion and all who participate in other religions do not have as much redeemable qualities(not sure what those are), but obviously I don't believe that, or I would still be a Christian.
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