From this perspective, sin and evil are superficial elements that can never affect our fundamental nature. Teshuvah means rediscovering our true selves, establishing contact with this G‑dly inner potential and making it the dominant influence in our lives. Seen in this light, our motivation to do teshuvah is not an awareness of our inadequacies, but rather a sensitivity to this infinite potential within our souls.
This is what Lincoln was referring to when he appealed in one of his inaugural addresses to "the better angels of our nature."
The communion fellowship also requires self-examination... "let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of that cup." Not a bad analogy for "communion" of all types! Looking forward to the discussion and practice of these "10 days of awe."
Here recently I have been confronted with the reality that my trust, confidence, faith, believing...whatever you want to call it...in God has either been shaken or is not up to the par that I need it to be. Consequently my personal confidence has slipped as well. I have noticed that the less time that I make for Him, the less personal time that He and I spend together the more my confidence slips. I really NEED to take/make time to think, to contemplate, to just talk to God or I really begin to feel the strain.
Last night I lay myself down on the bathroom floor, with my head in the kitty bed where one of my little 5 week old babies lay dying and I cryed, I questioned and I got angry. I got angry at God and I got angry at myself. Why could I not heal this little one? Was it not God's will? Why did I feel so ineffectual? I could hear God's voice, and I know that it is His voice. He told me that I did not truly believe that the kitten could be healed. So I asked Him to help my unbelief.
This is my focus...to work with God to increase my belief so that down the road another may not need to suffer or die.
Here recently I have been confronted with the reality that my trust, confidence, faith, believing...whatever you want to call it...in God has either been shaken or is not up to the par that I need it to be. Consequently my personal confidence has slipped as well. I have noticed that the less time that I make for Him, the less personal time that He and I spend together the more my confidence slips. I really NEED to take/make time to think, to contemplate, to just talk to God or I really begin to feel the strain.
Last night I lay myself down on the bathroom floor, with my head in the kitty bed where one of my little 5 week old babies lay dying and I cryed, I questioned and I got angry. I got angry at God and I got angry at myself. Why could I not heal this little one? Was it not God's will? Why did I feel so ineffectual? I could hear God's voice, and I know that it is His voice. He told me that I did not truly believe that the kitten could be healed. So I asked Him to help my unbelief.
This is my focus...to work with God to increase my belief so that down the road another may not need to suffer or die.
That is a mighty mighty goal, Eyes! Good for you!!
Getting angry at God from time to time can be healthy and really, it is honest. Who has NEVER been angry with God? And so, why allow "religion" to cause us to deny how we feel? We aren't fooling God, only ourselves.
I read your post. About the soft answer part I have a question for you. I mean my tone gets harsh or difficult at times, I do not feel bad when I am done. Are you wanting to do the soft answer becuase you feel bad? Or otherwise? Because when I blow up if I have a reason, I feel good about it.
BTW, I made up a few jokes and posted them on the Oakspear thread. They are my jokes as in I came up with them. Please read them I want to know if you think they are funny. ie(I am putting them to the test on you) PLEASE BE HONEST, IT WILL NOT DO ME ANY GOOD FOR YOU TO TELL ME THEY ARE FUNNY IF YOU DON'T THINK SO.
I read your post. About the soft answer part I have a question for you. I mean my tone gets harsh or difficult at times, I do not feel bad when I am done. Are you wanting to do the soft answer becuase you feel bad? Or otherwise? Because when I blow up if I have a reason, I feel good about it.
BTW, I made up a few jokes and posted them on the Oakspear thread. They are my jokes as in I came up with them. Please read them I want to know if you think they are funny. ie(I am putting them to the test on you) PLEASE BE HONEST, IT WILL NOT DO ME ANY GOOD FOR YOU TO TELL ME THEY ARE FUNNY IF YOU DON'T THINK SO.
I agree Sky, sometimes blowing up feels good. Sometimes there is nothing like a good temper tantrum to relieve some pressure. :)
I am not focusing on a soft answer because I feel bad. I am focusing on a soft answer because I believe it is more productive.
I'll use the cafe as an example. I read some of the arguments that take place in the threads and some of them can get quite nasty. I can't help but think if just one person from one side would offer a soft answer, it could diffuse the anger and open the door for a real dialogue, a real exchange of information, where both sides are hearing each other and considering each other's pov - regardless of whether or not they ever actually agree. It could turn a thread from one that is riddled with anger to one that is filled with love and healing.
People often use the analogy of Jesus overthrowing the tables in the temple as a verse to support their angry responses. But I think on that story and I suspect that when Jesus overthrew the tables he wasn't trying to reach the pharisees. I don't think he thought that his actions in that situation would cause the Pharisees to change their minds.
I think Jesus overthrew the tables in anger because it would cause healing in the other people who were present that day, not the pharasees. My guess is, if you know someone will never consider your pov, will never give you an honest hearing, that the most productive response is silence - UNLESS you are trying to reach someone else with your message.
Likewise, if you respond with anger, the hearer's defenses go up and the hearer cannot hear.
On the other hand, if you respond with kindness, with compassion, empathy, understanding - the hearer may still never agree with you, but he will be far more likely to hear you, to consider your pov, to respond with kindness in return. :)
So, that is my personal focus. It doesn't have to be, nor should it necessarily be anyone else's focus. :)
Abi, Great thread, count me in. I've been reading up on the whole time frame and I love it. I'm taking some time to meditate and pray about my Teshuvah.
There is no time like the present to enlarge my heart. Each of us by taking on this endeavor will be doing that. "For out of the heart come all the issues of life". I need to learn how to be tougher and not let any minor word wound me to the point that I stop speaking. There are very few threads I will post on, partly because I don't want to be hurt. Some of the rest of the threads aren't worth my keyboard because everybody's fighting and into one-up-man-ship such as what Abi ddiscussed.
Thanks for this golden invitation Abi; what a wonderful opportunity to spend a little more time with the Father and some of the 'Spots enlarging and polishing up that wonderful sinless part of myself.
I wonder though--does a soft answer work with a bully or an abusive person? Or do they interpret it as getting what they want from their aggression? They do exist--not everyone is nice, deep down inside. What about thread/ poster stalkers like we see from time to time?
I wonder though--does a soft answer work with a bully or an abusive person? Or do they interpret it as getting what they want from their aggression? They do exist--not everyone is nice, deep down inside. What about thread/ poster stalkers like we see from time to time?
Bramble, I think if someone is truly a bully, a stalker, or a troll, then a harsh answer only serves to "feed" the cycle and silence is the best answer.
I wonder though--does a soft answer work with a bully or an abusive person? Or do they interpret it as getting what they want from their aggression? They do exist--not everyone is nice, deep down inside. What about thread/ poster stalkers like we see from time to time?
If I were to answer this based strictly on face to face encounters from my years as a street officer, then yes the soft answer works more often than people would think. In my personal experience which is most certainly different than everyone else (because we are individuals) gentleness and empathy or empathetic responses do turn away wrath about 80-90% of the time.
Now here in cyberspace...I've run into about 50-50. Perhaps because people in person are responding to the body language and voice inflections etc.
I believe in a soft answer. I believe it works....as in.... "a soft answer turneth away wrath" which is in Proverbs somewhere, and I really believe Probervs is a rule-book for us.
I know linda Z and I have from time to time discussions on some of these threads where one of us has not understood the other, and simple questions with no guile ferret out the appropriate answer and each of us is satisfied and nobody's been hurt.
I think, but am not positive, that a soft answer is softly delivered, not yelled, and also does not contain inflamatory language spoken in a gentle tone of voice.
I wonder though--does a soft answer work with a bully or an abusive person? Or do they interpret it as getting what they want from their aggression? They do exist--not everyone is nice, deep down inside. What about thread/ poster stalkers like we see from time to time?
It's not a hard and fast rule that a soft answer will always turn away wrath. ("The law of soft answers... works for saint and sinner alike!")
But training our heart to face even a bully with a soft answer is not a bad idea.
"do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good"?
“Finally, [be ye]all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous: Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. For the eyes of the Lord [are] over the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord [is] against them that do evil. And who [is] he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? But and if ye suffer for righteousness’ sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:” (1Pe 3:8-18 AV)
It's not a hard and fast rule that a soft answer will always turn away wrath. ("The law of soft answers... works for saint and sinner alike!")
But training our heart to face even a bully with a soft answer is not a bad idea.
"do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good"?
“Finally, [be ye]all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous: Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. For the eyes of the Lord [are] over the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord [is] against them that do evil. And who [is] he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? But and if ye suffer for righteousness’ sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:” (1Pe 3:8-18 AV)
God's word says it all! I particularily love these verses! Thank You for bringing them here, Dan!
The “Forgiveness Vespers” service is how Orthodox churches embark upon Lent. Western Christians begin with ashes on their foreheads. Orthodox Christians begin with their foreheads on the floor.
The service marks a high point on the Orthodox calendar. Worshippers step reverently into the cathedral, knowing that tonight their church will “change keys” and enter a period whose mood they often describe as bright sadness. Prayers are rising before dusk, but sunlight has left the church by the time the old archbishop invites his people to draw near for a heart-to-heart. He begins to talk of forgiveness.
Their Lord, he tells them, pursued their reconciliation unto death. His sacrifice should move them to go about forgiving with urgency, outside the church as well as within. The archbishop’s counsel: If you aren’t willing to forgive, don’t bother with Lenten fasting. It would be pointless.
Finally, he makes a general confession himself. He admits, for example, that he has often been guilty of impatience. For that and other failings, he is sorry. “My brothers and sisters,” he says before prostrating himself, “forgive me.”
And so begins the rite of forgiveness. Starting with the archbishop, the people form a receiving line that slowly winds around the church. Everyone prostrates himself or herself before every other person present, even strangers.
“Forgive me, a sinner,” each one says, and then bends low. The person opposite makes the same confession, the same gesture. Rising, they embrace and kiss. “God forgives, and I forgive,” each one says, or other words to that effect.
Because everyone participates, all inevitably stand face to face with those who know them best. Young fathers bow before their young children. Boyfriends and girlfriends ask one another’s forgiveness. A mother seeks pardon from her son. Husbands prostrate themselves before their wives, and vice versa. A few people, choked by emotion, cannot get the words out every time. Tears say what their tongues cannot.
Cynics may doubt the genuineness of all this; some doubt its necessity. One visitor a few years ago was bemused to see all those faces down and bottoms up. Keeping her seat, and her distance, at the back of the church, she quietly wondered aloud, “Do they really need that much forgiveness?”
A Christian answers yes, they really do – and not just for more or less public offenses in word and deed, but even for offenses committed in secret or in the heart. No sin, in Orthodox and other Christian thought, is absolutely private. Each represents a breaking of faith with the whole church, the whole human race. No one who believes such a thing means to deny that sin offends God above all. The idea is simply to affirm that sin also offends those made in the image of that God.
But shouldn’t people who think that way seek and extend forgiveness all the time, and not just one Sunday night in late winter? Any church that prays “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us,” week in and week out, knows the unanimous Christian answer. In the words of St. Paul, “Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.”
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the young German theologian martyred by the Nazis, envisioned Saturday as a time when laypeople might regularly pursue reconciliation with one another before sharing Holy Communion the next day. “Nobody who avoids this approach to his brother,” he wrote, “can go rightly prepared to the table of the Lord.”
Right thinking without right relating, to paraphrase St. James, is dead. As the Orthodox see it, a simple rite of forgiveness at the end of evening prayer underlines that point and puts it in boldface. “Let us embrace one another,” they will sing in the wee hours of Easter morning. “Let us speak also, O brethren, to those that hate us, and in the resurrection let us forgive all things, and so let us cry: Christ is risen from the dead!”
A resurrection gospel puts those who believe it on their knees before God. Sooner or later, it puts them on their knees before one another.
--Paul Buckley is a student at Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia
Dan I enjoyed reading your poosted piece...it was very moving; & Wrdsandwrks your link was very moving as well! They both provides a lot of insight for me concerning the "Days of Awe" and Christian practises in relationship to them! I am going to check out more about this now, thank You both again!
Dan, thanks for sharing that, it was very relevant and informative. Until two days ago, I was completely unaware that Christians observed a form of these holy days.
Words, I started to listen to what you posted but real life called, I will get back to it. After that, I think I will finish my Holy Days away from here.
Thanks for all of your participation in this thread, everyone!
Dan, thanks for sharing that, it was very relevant and informative. Until two days ago, I was completely unaware that Christians observed a form of these holy days.
Words, I started to listen to what you posted but real life called, I will get back to it. After that, I think I will finish my Holy Days away from here.
Thanks for all of your participation in this thread, everyone!
Dan, I wonder if the idea for Lent came from the Jewish Day of Atonement? After your post I read the Catholic encyclopedia article on the origin of Lent. Don't have time to get into it now, but thanks for the interesting article
Abi, Understand about taking some time off, but selfishly, if I could or should I would beg you to stay.
Ultimately, I think both just came from God. If the Lord Jesus washed his disciples' feet, we ought to wash one another's feet... not with the cold water of judgment and of offense, but of the warmth and care and understanding the Lord Jesus himself has shown toward us
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anotherDan
This is what Lincoln was referring to when he appealed in one of his inaugural addresses to "the better angels of our nature."
The communion fellowship also requires self-examination... "let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of that cup." Not a bad analogy for "communion" of all types! Looking forward to the discussion and practice of these "10 days of awe."
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Eyesopen
Here recently I have been confronted with the reality that my trust, confidence, faith, believing...whatever you want to call it...in God has either been shaken or is not up to the par that I need it to be. Consequently my personal confidence has slipped as well. I have noticed that the less time that I make for Him, the less personal time that He and I spend together the more my confidence slips. I really NEED to take/make time to think, to contemplate, to just talk to God or I really begin to feel the strain.
Last night I lay myself down on the bathroom floor, with my head in the kitty bed where one of my little 5 week old babies lay dying and I cryed, I questioned and I got angry. I got angry at God and I got angry at myself. Why could I not heal this little one? Was it not God's will? Why did I feel so ineffectual? I could hear God's voice, and I know that it is His voice. He told me that I did not truly believe that the kitten could be healed. So I asked Him to help my unbelief.
This is my focus...to work with God to increase my belief so that down the road another may not need to suffer or die.
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Abigail
That is a mighty mighty goal, Eyes! Good for you!!
Getting angry at God from time to time can be healthy and really, it is honest. Who has NEVER been angry with God? And so, why allow "religion" to cause us to deny how we feel? We aren't fooling God, only ourselves.
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anotherDan
oh my!!! (((((((( eyes )))))))))) We love you!
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sky4it
Abigail:
I read your post. About the soft answer part I have a question for you. I mean my tone gets harsh or difficult at times, I do not feel bad when I am done. Are you wanting to do the soft answer becuase you feel bad? Or otherwise? Because when I blow up if I have a reason, I feel good about it.
BTW, I made up a few jokes and posted them on the Oakspear thread. They are my jokes as in I came up with them. Please read them I want to know if you think they are funny. ie(I am putting them to the test on you) PLEASE BE HONEST, IT WILL NOT DO ME ANY GOOD FOR YOU TO TELL ME THEY ARE FUNNY IF YOU DON'T THINK SO.
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Abigail
I agree Sky, sometimes blowing up feels good. Sometimes there is nothing like a good temper tantrum to relieve some pressure. :)
I am not focusing on a soft answer because I feel bad. I am focusing on a soft answer because I believe it is more productive.
I'll use the cafe as an example. I read some of the arguments that take place in the threads and some of them can get quite nasty. I can't help but think if just one person from one side would offer a soft answer, it could diffuse the anger and open the door for a real dialogue, a real exchange of information, where both sides are hearing each other and considering each other's pov - regardless of whether or not they ever actually agree. It could turn a thread from one that is riddled with anger to one that is filled with love and healing.
People often use the analogy of Jesus overthrowing the tables in the temple as a verse to support their angry responses. But I think on that story and I suspect that when Jesus overthrew the tables he wasn't trying to reach the pharisees. I don't think he thought that his actions in that situation would cause the Pharisees to change their minds.
I think Jesus overthrew the tables in anger because it would cause healing in the other people who were present that day, not the pharasees. My guess is, if you know someone will never consider your pov, will never give you an honest hearing, that the most productive response is silence - UNLESS you are trying to reach someone else with your message.
Likewise, if you respond with anger, the hearer's defenses go up and the hearer cannot hear.
On the other hand, if you respond with kindness, with compassion, empathy, understanding - the hearer may still never agree with you, but he will be far more likely to hear you, to consider your pov, to respond with kindness in return. :)
I'll check out your jokes a bit later. :)
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Abby
k, i read yah :) ;
I think that if i am over my anger after a diatribe, well then it was a healthy one, I dont let the anger fester.
later
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wrdsandwrks
Abi, Great thread, count me in. I've been reading up on the whole time frame and I love it. I'm taking some time to meditate and pray about my Teshuvah.
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krys
There is no time like the present to enlarge my heart. Each of us by taking on this endeavor will be doing that. "For out of the heart come all the issues of life". I need to learn how to be tougher and not let any minor word wound me to the point that I stop speaking. There are very few threads I will post on, partly because I don't want to be hurt. Some of the rest of the threads aren't worth my keyboard because everybody's fighting and into one-up-man-ship such as what Abi ddiscussed.
Thanks for this golden invitation Abi; what a wonderful opportunity to spend a little more time with the Father and some of the 'Spots enlarging and polishing up that wonderful sinless part of myself.
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Bramble
I wonder though--does a soft answer work with a bully or an abusive person? Or do they interpret it as getting what they want from their aggression? They do exist--not everyone is nice, deep down inside. What about thread/ poster stalkers like we see from time to time?
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Abigail
Bramble, I think if someone is truly a bully, a stalker, or a troll, then a harsh answer only serves to "feed" the cycle and silence is the best answer.
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cman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introspection
I like it.
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Eyesopen
If I were to answer this based strictly on face to face encounters from my years as a street officer, then yes the soft answer works more often than people would think. In my personal experience which is most certainly different than everyone else (because we are individuals) gentleness and empathy or empathetic responses do turn away wrath about 80-90% of the time.
Now here in cyberspace...I've run into about 50-50. Perhaps because people in person are responding to the body language and voice inflections etc.
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krys
I believe in a soft answer. I believe it works....as in.... "a soft answer turneth away wrath" which is in Proverbs somewhere, and I really believe Probervs is a rule-book for us.
I know linda Z and I have from time to time discussions on some of these threads where one of us has not understood the other, and simple questions with no guile ferret out the appropriate answer and each of us is satisfied and nobody's been hurt.
I think, but am not positive, that a soft answer is softly delivered, not yelled, and also does not contain inflamatory language spoken in a gentle tone of voice.
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anotherDan
It's not a hard and fast rule that a soft answer will always turn away wrath. ("The law of soft answers... works for saint and sinner alike!")
But training our heart to face even a bully with a soft answer is not a bad idea.
"do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good"?
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RainbowsGirl
“Finally, [be ye]all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous: Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. For the eyes of the Lord [are] over the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord [is] against them that do evil. And who [is] he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? But and if ye suffer for righteousness’ sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:” (1Pe 3:8-18 AV)
God's word says it all! I particularily love these verses! Thank You for bringing them here, Dan!
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anotherDan
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wrdsandwrks
Here's an interesting perspective on the Rosh HaShanah and the Days of Awe:
The Meaning of Rosh Hashanah:
http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/230800.aspx
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RainbowsGirl
Thank You both!
Dan I enjoyed reading your poosted piece...it was very moving; & Wrdsandwrks your link was very moving as well! They both provides a lot of insight for me concerning the "Days of Awe" and Christian practises in relationship to them! I am going to check out more about this now, thank You both again!
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Abigail
Dan, thanks for sharing that, it was very relevant and informative. Until two days ago, I was completely unaware that Christians observed a form of these holy days.
Words, I started to listen to what you posted but real life called, I will get back to it. After that, I think I will finish my Holy Days away from here.
Thanks for all of your participation in this thread, everyone!
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wrdsandwrks
Dan, I wonder if the idea for Lent came from the Jewish Day of Atonement? After your post I read the Catholic encyclopedia article on the origin of Lent. Don't have time to get into it now, but thanks for the interesting article
Abi, Understand about taking some time off, but selfishly, if I could or should I would beg you to stay.
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anotherDan
Good question, Wrds.
Ultimately, I think both just came from God. If the Lord Jesus washed his disciples' feet, we ought to wash one another's feet... not with the cold water of judgment and of offense, but of the warmth and care and understanding the Lord Jesus himself has shown toward us
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anotherDan
what day are we on?
Where's the rest of the teaching? Come on, Abi! This is the basement!
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Eyesopen
Abi said she was going to finish her 10 days away from the Spot. So you will just have to wait. :)
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