Who do you think the devil is? would be a good beginning
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
the serpent is a beast of the field but what are beast of the field ?
Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
soul breathing animals are beast of the field but which one is the most subtle than any other?
subtel is a beast that is most cunning, crafty, prudent, subtil, or smart
this would be the animal side of man the natural side
other names for the devil - Lucifer
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
but who does the context say Lucifer is?
Isa 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
this subject is king of Babylon who had falling from a high place
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
power is by dominion or might which strength over the body
who has this power over flesh and blood the soul life has this power to control life and death by breathing or not
spirit life is another matter
you have asked "How does one explain the plagues? the flood? the annhilation of women, children, animals, etc. who fought Israel?"
plagues come by actions which comes from sin miss used of worldly things the second death came to Adam it comes to all of the first heaven and earth everything begin to die not just mankind
the flood was cause by a earth trying to wash away its bad like when we throw up to get bad things out of your body the earth is a live just like we are
the flood all so was getting the earth ready to be clean by fire like in the old Teastment times when people after handling something dead had to wash with water before the priest could clean them from sin
third heaven and earth came after cleaning by fire
first heaven and earth the creation Gen 1:1
second heaven and earth came when death came to all things
the annhilation of women, children, animals, etc. who fought Israel?"
Thanks Roy. I enjoyed reading your views and they have given me good food for thought. As you, I too am curious as to other's thoughts. Perhaps this is a subject that has been poured over before?
Part of our journey is death of the physical body. It happens to every one of us eventually.
The Bible was written from a dualistic perspective. Good/evil......God/devil.
There is a perspective called "New Thought" which embraces the Spirituality of the Bible, but sees beyond the duality to the "Unity" of all things.
Proponents of this Spiritual Philosophy would be Ralph Waldo Emerson, Ernest Holmes, Norman Vincent Peale...................and someone who came close except for the duality is VPW.
According to New Thought man is a three part being:Spirit, Soul, and Body just like God, and part of the unity of God. We are God in manifstation and there is no dualism just what appears to be evil.
Death is part of mans journey and is a transition to the next realm, whatever that may be. The Body becomes dust and the Spirit/Soul man moves on emediatly to the next thing whatever that may be. This is a pleasent way to think life and death for all is good and all is God. Even if the circumstances are unpleasent there is good to come out of it. There is good to move on to.
I prefer this philosophy, theology, way of life because it brings all things together in unity an enables the true love of God for all mankind and all creation to be manifest......no matter the Circumstances.
How do you deal with scriptures such as death is the enemy and the devil has the power of death? How do you reconcile God is light and God doesn't tempt man and then read something like God tempted Abraham to sacrifice Isaac? I think I understand your basic theory that the Bible is a book about good versus evil. I, too, feel that sometimes perhaps we try too hard to make it all fit when perhaps God is trying to just teach us how to live together as a family. However, from your reply it seems to me that you think everyone is of God here on earth. Is that what you believe? Then how do you explain what some would call unfairness? Like how come some people are healthy, rich, etc., while others are terminally ill or starving? Let's face it, there are a lot of hungry people in the world. Where is God in their lives?
Roy, thanks again for your response. Glad to think this topic hasn't been talked to death (pun intended). You are so right about pureness and helping people through stuff. That is my goal with my book. I don't believe God wants us to hurt. Shoot, I don't want my kids to hurt. Most of the time anyway. And death hurts. And I'm pretty sick and tired of the standard answers like it's God's will and it was their time, etc. I am even more concerned that people blame God for something that is not His doing. So, it takes a lot of discussion and knowledge to get to an answer or an explanation that is somewhat of a comfort. Of course, I have my theories and explanations, but nothing spiritual can really be put in a little box with a pretty bow, you know? I don't want to say stuff that is wrong, so I fell I have to look at as many options as possible.
I've been influenced by the Bible since I was 18. I was looking for love and I found God. Christ ministered to me from the inside out and I was set free from much of my youthful bondages of fear. As I grew older, the basic premise of Love has always underlined my Spiritual expereince but I fell into ruts of doctrinal bondages. A doctrinal bondage keeps us from growing the way that we are intended because we become party to a spiritual half truth or untruth.
To make a long story short I hardly read the Bible anymore though the words of life that I studied for so long still minister to me. I believe that the Bible is Man's understanding of God. There is much to be gleaned from it but it is always what man thought in that man's day, according to his particular influences and understanding of the world.
My view of scriptures about the Devil having power is that this is what they believed at the time. A belief is a powerful thing. A belief can set us free or keep us in bondage. Our beliefs change in time as we gain experience. This is a "cause and effect" world and I believe that that concept is all over the Bible as well.
Man learns in time through trial and error and the effects of his living according to a certain belief. We all have changed in time as we have learned more. A perfect example is the crumbling of TWI. Many who learned much from TWI and those things that they learned served them well for a time, have grown out of what the use to hold true.
Is the world fair? Perfectly. As you believe you recieve, and it works for saint and sinner alike. A belief is a powerful thing. A belief causes us to act. This is why "The Power of Positive Thinking" actually does work.
There is also something called "Race Consciousness". Race Consciousness is what makes groups of peaple manifest things such as lack, sickness, wealth, happiness ect. A belief is a powerful thing. Groups of people all "of the same mind" experience much the same things. It is up to the individual to listen to the "Still Small Voice" inside to break away from group consciousness and overcome the fault of the group.
Yes, every person is a Spiritual Being whether they know it or not. Every Person is the Image of I AM. They all also have volition and are able to choose to see the spiritual side or ignore it. Often the Consciousness of a group makes it very hard for People ot get out the box that they have been born into. But it does happen. This is where Mystics and Sages come from. These are ones that seek and find and overcome. The potential is there for all, but not all attain to it.
Slowly the world is becoming a better place. Slowly as Man learns that He can Love with the true Love of God in all situations and help others to attain the same the world evolves. God is in the midst and these things happen day after day in the midst of disorder. In the midst of disorder there is a perfect order that flows though few See it..........Jesus saw.
I enjoyed a good deal of your post but find I must disagree with you on the issue of believing.
The attitude you carry with you, be it negative or positive, has a very real effect on your physical and mental health.
This has been proven in a multitude of controlled studies.
Likewise, taking affirmative steps to achieving a goal can bring about positive results.
Simply "believing" something into or out of existence, however, is not a realistic or healthy approach to life.
Unless your thoughts cause you to act in some outward and tangible fashion, they will have no effect on what comes to pass.
You can't literally move a mountain by simply "believing" it will move.
You can, however, cause it to move by a conscious effort to employ explosives and excavating equipment to facilitate the result.
That conscious effort may require that you retain a positive outlook so as not to be deferred from your goal.
Too often, people have used this magic believing idea to try to accomplish that which is best accomplished through a concerted and deliberate action (or accepted as being unrealistic.)
WS: thanks for your answer to Patrick. I wasn't quite sure how to put in words how I felt, but you seemed to do it quite well. I must say I agree. There has always been a side of society which thinks believing is the be all and end all. However, as for TWI, it was a way to blame the average Joe believer and always have him in guilt and striving for something unattainable.
Anyway, that's how I feel. Now, about your issue of death and the devil; do you not believe in his existence or do you not believe he has power?
I don't know that I can add much doctrinally, but we had a question-and-answer session in our church Sunday as a sermon series was wrapping up. Somehow we touched on the subject of death. One person stated that death was NOT evil, death is a friend. I pointed out the verse in Romans "the last enemy that shall be defeated is death." "Yes but death is not evil" was the quick reply. The pastor chimed in with how he is actually looking forward to his death because then he will be in heaven with Jesus. Not looking forward to the dying process, though.
I don't believe death was in God's original plan, since if Adam and Eve had not sinned they would have not had the seeds of death sown in them. However, they did, and now we all do.
I don't think death is something to look forward to myself. For one thing, I don't believe people go immediately to heaven or hell upon their demise. There's too much in the Bible that contradicts that POV. I do believe that ultimately I will have eternal life through Christ Jesus my lord.
Hope this helps. I'm more into simple faith than complex theologies these days.
Anyway, that's how I feel. Now, about your issue of death and the devil; do you not believe in his existence or do you not believe he has power?
Having left TWI many years ago, I no longer think of the "devil" as an entity, per se.
I now personally view the devil and his powers as being metaphoric in essence.
That doesn't make any of it less real for me.
A lot of things we were taught about the devil and devil spirits, I now consider to be highly inaccurate in a Biblical sense.
In other words, no, I don't believe in his existence as an individual entity yet I still believe the concept, itself, is valid.
Ditto on the question regarding power. The power exists but I don't believe it emanates from the "devil" we have come to know through TWI and mainstream Christianity in general.
Funny thing is, I actually feel like I had a pretty good handle on much of this stuff BEFORE I got "in the Word".
TWI taught me I had to put God under some kind of spiritual microscope and never step back to get a panoramic view.
Here's an example.
Before TWI, I was pretty sure God could "talk" to me in non verbal ways such as nature and emotions.
Then when I got involved with TWI, it seemed like I had to put Him in a jar like a captive firefly and never marvel at the beauty of it as it flits carefree through the night sky.
I don't know if that makes much sense but I wanted to try to answer your question honestly.
WS: I haven't been able to figure out how to copy a piece of someone's answer yet. Seems my computer has more brains than I do. Anyway, I totally understand about putting God in a box, so to speak. When did you get away from TWI? I know we have had to sift through what we were taught; however, I do think the devil is real. I mean, what do you do with all the scriptures about him and devil spirits? Especially in Jesus' time. Lots of spirits written about. What about Ephesians 6 that we wrestle not against flesh and blood. We still wrestle. Though I have never been face to face with that realm, I still think there is something to say for knowing about your enemy. Don't all these coaches study the opposing teams so they can learn their strengths and weaknesses? And the military does likewise. Just wouldn't want you to get broadsided if you aren't right.
WG: I hope I'm remembering what everyone wrote that I wanted to comment on and getting it right I think you said you don't believe people go right to heaven/hell when they die. I know that was what TWI taught and as yet I haven't been able to find much to contradict that. But, here's a thought you may already realize: Since there is no time in death, no consciousness, once we die the very next instant will be eternity for us. So, I figure if I live to be 80, I have a few more years to go before I see the Lord, but that's it. If he doesn't return til 5020, I won't know that, all I'll know is however long my life lasts here. That is a great comfort to me, as people believing their loved ones are in heaven is a comfort to them. I understand that too.
And Roy: Good grief!! Thank you so much for taking the time to look up all that stuff and forward it on. Now I have something to do tonight (just kidding). It will probably at least take me til tomorrow to read it all. Honestly, I appreciate it so much and I am anxious to get through it.
CMan: Thanks for the info. I haven't seen The Quest. Is it something I could rent? It sounded quite interesting. Anything, like the other cite, that tries to help people deal with death is a-okay to me.
Although I personally don't view death as necessarily evil, I don't subscribe to the biblical view, but I don't understand how a bible believer could say that death is not evil, or that they welcomed death without ignoring the verse that calls death an enemy.
Wow, great dialogue and heart in this here little thread.
Will be doing turkey day and the local "Center for Spiritual Living". I love that. I love it when people ask what I'm doing today and I can reply Well I'm stopping by the local "Center for Spiritual Living" then going here and there.
Waysider,
I appreciate your disagreeing with me......I often disagree with myself. As for "believing things into existence", Yes we all embody different consciousness concerning this. The #1 best selling nonfiction book for the last several months has been "The Secret". "The Secret" comes from a new throught perspective. I could only finish about half the book. I did not like it because it was all about how I could "get stuff", very materialistic use of Spiritual Law. A lot of people love it. It is also the main premise in "The secret of how to Get Rich" and such positive thinking books.
The Idea's come from the realm of what is possible and are inspired Creation. Electricity was a law that could have been harnessed when ever man came to the consiousness of it. Whenever man, or a man, embodied an Idea enough to bring it into existance. Electricity was available when Moses walked the earth, but nobody new how to use it. This is the same with Spiritual Law. We all use Spiritual law to the extent that we can embody it. I like Pauls answer in 1 Corinthians.........."And yet I show you a more perfect way.......Love"
As far as embodying this "Law of Believing" Jesus seemed to do very will with it. He had a "Son of God" Consciousness, a "Christ" consciousness, that things just happened when he spoke the Word. I think that this Christ Consiousness is when our Spirit, which is God or Christ in us, and the same in every man, and our soul are united in. Our Soul is who we are individually and has a lot to it including everyting we have ever heard, thought, felt, believed, experienced. Our ego is part of our soul. When we get our soul to line up with Love/God, then we are walking with a purified soul or a soul that is lined up with Spirit.........This basically what we did in TWI with the "Renewed Mind". We where constantly bringing ourselves back to Christ consiousness and purifying our souls. This is why the spiritual practice that we learned with TWI was good in many ways.
That went a little long and has not a lot to do with the topic "Death" except that a belief is a powerful thing. A belief influences how we live our lives. Our beliefs reside in our souls, and can be changed. As we come to more knowlege, and we, through trial and error, cause and effect, come to new conclusions we cange our beliefs. "The truth shall make you free" This is why some beliefs bring us into bondage that is "death" and some beliefs are truth and result in freedom or "life".
What you believe about God, the Devil, Life and Death has a powerful effect on the life you live in the here and now.
(Took "the class" in 1972) Me, too, Shelter Island, NY
Now take that one step farther.
Perhaps he's not a spiritual creature, but, rather, a metaphoric concept that represents some larger truth.
Again, the reality is still there, but your perception has been once again altered.
Ditto on the devil spirits and power surrounding this whole subject.
You see, it does not nullify the scriptures that pertain to this subject.
I hope this means I caught on and your instructions were "easy to follow". Thanks. Anyway, maybe I'm plain stupid, but I dont' understand how you can call a metaphoric concept a reality. To me a metaphoric concept is way intangible. A concept is intangible. A metaphor represents something like something, right? I get that, I think. The "devil" is like evil or bad (vs. good). Correct? Do you feel the same way about God? Is He a metaphoric concept also? Is He the good vs. your evil? Just trying to understand....
Oh, well, I still need some practice on the color thing,huh?
Patrick, Got more out of your answer this time than last. I knew about "The Secret." I dismissed it once I learned what it entailed. I guess I'm not ready to accept TWI may have had a point about believing. Not the way they used it anyway. I think you hit on a big thing in your answer and that is the difference between a belief and believing. Noun/verb. I have often wondered how Jesus did the awesome stuff he did. Was it just a matter of mind over matter? (Clever, huh?) I guess I am just a logical thinker. I want black and white, not color. I want things that are easy to explain, easy to understand. I don't necessarily get everything you are trying to convey. But, I am glad you've taken time to help me out and hope you won't think I'm too dumb to work with here.
I'm glad you've found a place you feel good about and comfortable with.
Happy Thanksgiving!
P.S. The soul stuff was real neat though, got that.
Oakspear: I agree with your view about believers thinking death is the enemy. After all, that is what it says. But, like you said, is it always evil? I wouldn't consider dying in my sleep some night necessarily evil. I mean, I'm not gonna get out of here alive, unless the Lord returns for me. So, all in all, I can't say I'm afraid of death. Maybe just the process. What do you believe?
Now, if you drop below the bottom quote bracket before you start to type, it will display the captured section in its entirety.
Regarding the concept question:
I think a concept can also represent reality.
Take, for example, the concept of God describing Himself in terms that would normally be used to describe a flesh and bones human being. He bares His mighty arm. His wrath is angered, etc.
Yet, we know from scripture that he does not have human physical attributes. He is spirit.
It's a concept described in a way that helps our human minds understand, to a degree, the reality of what is being expressed. Perhaps metaphoric is not the correct term, semantically, but It is how I have come to think of concepts that express reality.
As CMan pointed out, Paul said "I die daily."
It wasn't true from a reality perspective but there is a concept being expressed there that addresses some specific and real part of life and death.
A consequence of Way ideas concerning death is the manner of their funerals. They were clinical, emotionless affairs giving no room for loved ones to grieve publically and enjoy the warm support of family and friends. It shows up in the insistence of saying so-and-so is 'asleep' and in refusing an open casket, preferring no casket at all and a total unwillingness to embrace the pain of loss and give full expression to that pain. That wouldn't be "positive", y'know.
While I still accept most of the basic ideas of the state of the dead taught in Wayology, I think it is incomplete.
How does one go about reconciling these two statements?
Lots of semantics here though. I guess this would fall in line with 'concepts' in a way. The 'concept' of death is being separated from our loved ones. Anything really attributed to death must be a 'concept' because we have no idea what the reality of it is, except of course that we quit breathing, our hearts stop beating, etc. I must say I think Jesus was trying to tell us by loving our enemies that we could help them overcome hate which would probably cause them to be unbelievers. But, let me go a step further. I think there's a scripture were it says something about heaven and us being seated with our enemies. What if it's our enemies and how we treat them that will be our ultimate "judgment"? The O.T. talks about revenge in places. Not so the New. I was part of a discussion this past week on righteous anger. Like when Jesus threw people out of the temple. We came to the conclusion that righteous anger was probably a reaction that dealt with the root of the problem without letting emotions take over. So, there goes revenge out the window. How many of us were able to have righteous anger about TWI? Did anyone ever get right back in LCM's face. I'd love to know. I didn't stick around long enough to find out. But, way off topic, there. Yes, bottom line must be love, love, love. But can we ever reconcile love with killing all the first born (at passover)? What about slaying 400 prophets at once? How's about Sodom and Gomorrha? Stuff like that and deciding about what the Bible says about death gets me crazy.
Cman: I think your take on reality is real. Love it.
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year2027
God first
Beloved irisheyes
God loves you my dear friend
Death is a great subject
Who do you think the devil is? would be a good beginning
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
the serpent is a beast of the field but what are beast of the field ?
Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
soul breathing animals are beast of the field but which one is the most subtle than any other?
subtel is a beast that is most cunning, crafty, prudent, subtil, or smart
this would be the animal side of man the natural side
other names for the devil - Lucifer
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
but who does the context say Lucifer is?
Isa 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
this subject is king of Babylon who had falling from a high place
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
power is by dominion or might which strength over the body
who has this power over flesh and blood the soul life has this power to control life and death by breathing or not
spirit life is another matter
you have asked "How does one explain the plagues? the flood? the annhilation of women, children, animals, etc. who fought Israel?"
plagues come by actions which comes from sin miss used of worldly things the second death came to Adam it comes to all of the first heaven and earth everything begin to die not just mankind
the flood was cause by a earth trying to wash away its bad like when we throw up to get bad things out of your body the earth is a live just like we are
the flood all so was getting the earth ready to be clean by fire like in the old Teastment times when people after handling something dead had to wash with water before the priest could clean them from sin
third heaven and earth came after cleaning by fire
first heaven and earth the creation Gen 1:1
second heaven and earth came when death came to all things
the annhilation of women, children, animals, etc. who fought Israel?"
why I would say jealousy but I am not sure
I look forward to reading what others will say
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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irisheyes
Thanks Roy. I enjoyed reading your views and they have given me good food for thought. As you, I too am curious as to other's thoughts. Perhaps this is a subject that has been poured over before?
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Patrick and Sarah
We all came here to live.
Part of our journey is death of the physical body. It happens to every one of us eventually.
The Bible was written from a dualistic perspective. Good/evil......God/devil.
There is a perspective called "New Thought" which embraces the Spirituality of the Bible, but sees beyond the duality to the "Unity" of all things.
Proponents of this Spiritual Philosophy would be Ralph Waldo Emerson, Ernest Holmes, Norman Vincent Peale...................and someone who came close except for the duality is VPW.
According to New Thought man is a three part being:Spirit, Soul, and Body just like God, and part of the unity of God. We are God in manifstation and there is no dualism just what appears to be evil.
Death is part of mans journey and is a transition to the next realm, whatever that may be. The Body becomes dust and the Spirit/Soul man moves on emediatly to the next thing whatever that may be. This is a pleasent way to think life and death for all is good and all is God. Even if the circumstances are unpleasent there is good to come out of it. There is good to move on to.
I prefer this philosophy, theology, way of life because it brings all things together in unity an enables the true love of God for all mankind and all creation to be manifest......no matter the Circumstances.
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year2027
God first
Beloved irisheyes
God loves you my dear friend
your welcome this subject as been talk about some here but not enough I think to help some deal with it and others see things more pure
we all got a lot to learn and witness
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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irisheyes
Patrick and Sara:
How do you deal with scriptures such as death is the enemy and the devil has the power of death? How do you reconcile God is light and God doesn't tempt man and then read something like God tempted Abraham to sacrifice Isaac? I think I understand your basic theory that the Bible is a book about good versus evil. I, too, feel that sometimes perhaps we try too hard to make it all fit when perhaps God is trying to just teach us how to live together as a family. However, from your reply it seems to me that you think everyone is of God here on earth. Is that what you believe? Then how do you explain what some would call unfairness? Like how come some people are healthy, rich, etc., while others are terminally ill or starving? Let's face it, there are a lot of hungry people in the world. Where is God in their lives?
Thanks for taking time to give me your views.
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irisheyes
Roy, thanks again for your response. Glad to think this topic hasn't been talked to death (pun intended). You are so right about pureness and helping people through stuff. That is my goal with my book. I don't believe God wants us to hurt. Shoot, I don't want my kids to hurt. Most of the time anyway. And death hurts. And I'm pretty sick and tired of the standard answers like it's God's will and it was their time, etc. I am even more concerned that people blame God for something that is not His doing. So, it takes a lot of discussion and knowledge to get to an answer or an explanation that is somewhat of a comfort. Of course, I have my theories and explanations, but nothing spiritual can really be put in a little box with a pretty bow, you know? I don't want to say stuff that is wrong, so I fell I have to look at as many options as possible.
Have a blessed day!
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Patrick and Sarah
Hi irisheyes,
Thanks for asking.
I've been influenced by the Bible since I was 18. I was looking for love and I found God. Christ ministered to me from the inside out and I was set free from much of my youthful bondages of fear. As I grew older, the basic premise of Love has always underlined my Spiritual expereince but I fell into ruts of doctrinal bondages. A doctrinal bondage keeps us from growing the way that we are intended because we become party to a spiritual half truth or untruth.
To make a long story short I hardly read the Bible anymore though the words of life that I studied for so long still minister to me. I believe that the Bible is Man's understanding of God. There is much to be gleaned from it but it is always what man thought in that man's day, according to his particular influences and understanding of the world.
My view of scriptures about the Devil having power is that this is what they believed at the time. A belief is a powerful thing. A belief can set us free or keep us in bondage. Our beliefs change in time as we gain experience. This is a "cause and effect" world and I believe that that concept is all over the Bible as well.
Man learns in time through trial and error and the effects of his living according to a certain belief. We all have changed in time as we have learned more. A perfect example is the crumbling of TWI. Many who learned much from TWI and those things that they learned served them well for a time, have grown out of what the use to hold true.
Is the world fair? Perfectly. As you believe you recieve, and it works for saint and sinner alike. A belief is a powerful thing. A belief causes us to act. This is why "The Power of Positive Thinking" actually does work.
There is also something called "Race Consciousness". Race Consciousness is what makes groups of peaple manifest things such as lack, sickness, wealth, happiness ect. A belief is a powerful thing. Groups of people all "of the same mind" experience much the same things. It is up to the individual to listen to the "Still Small Voice" inside to break away from group consciousness and overcome the fault of the group.
Yes, every person is a Spiritual Being whether they know it or not. Every Person is the Image of I AM. They all also have volition and are able to choose to see the spiritual side or ignore it. Often the Consciousness of a group makes it very hard for People ot get out the box that they have been born into. But it does happen. This is where Mystics and Sages come from. These are ones that seek and find and overcome. The potential is there for all, but not all attain to it.
Slowly the world is becoming a better place. Slowly as Man learns that He can Love with the true Love of God in all situations and help others to attain the same the world evolves. God is in the midst and these things happen day after day in the midst of disorder. In the midst of disorder there is a perfect order that flows though few See it..........Jesus saw.
Patrick.
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waysider
Hi Patrick
I enjoyed a good deal of your post but find I must disagree with you on the issue of believing.
The attitude you carry with you, be it negative or positive, has a very real effect on your physical and mental health.
This has been proven in a multitude of controlled studies.
Likewise, taking affirmative steps to achieving a goal can bring about positive results.
Simply "believing" something into or out of existence, however, is not a realistic or healthy approach to life.
Unless your thoughts cause you to act in some outward and tangible fashion, they will have no effect on what comes to pass.
You can't literally move a mountain by simply "believing" it will move.
You can, however, cause it to move by a conscious effort to employ explosives and excavating equipment to facilitate the result.
That conscious effort may require that you retain a positive outlook so as not to be deferred from your goal.
Too often, people have used this magic believing idea to try to accomplish that which is best accomplished through a concerted and deliberate action (or accepted as being unrealistic.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
But back to topic
Death is merely one part of the cycle of life just as birth is one part and childhood is one part and adulthood is one part.
Unlike childhood, adolescence and adulthood, though, it harbors an aura of uncertainty that can't be explained by those who have experienced it.
Thus, blaming" the devil "gives us a tangible and perhaps necessary focal point to reference our thoughts.
I could be wrong,
That's just my take on it.
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year2027
God first
Beloved friends
God loves us all my dear friends
here is some times we talk about death from a search
What is death? By year2027
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...51&hl=death
Are you ready for your death? By year2027
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...43&hl=death
The New Book of the Dead By year2027
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...04&hl=death
THE WAY OF LIFE OR THE WAY OF DEATH by Dmiller
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...49&hl=death
After death or before By year2027
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...17&hl=death
TWI on death ????? By ChattyKathy
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...93&hl=death
Death encircles "Garden of Living Waters" By FreshAir 99
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...43&hl=death
A view on the Gathering Day... DrWearWord
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...46&hl=death
Death and Afterlife By Bramble
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...87&hl=death
life after death???? By Starbird
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...48&hl=death
"Flight from Death", ...a strangely uplifting documentary By Sirguessalot
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...04&hl=death
Death: Are your friends dying?, Mine seem to be By Dot Matrix
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...13&hl=death
Death and Life are at my door! By year2027
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...74&hl=death
The Death Clock By GreasyTech
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...=11181&st=0
Is this just another board or the differ from life and death?, Grease Spot Cafe By year2027
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...56&hl=death
Death and TWIt Views On It By Belle
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...90&hl=death
Sickness is death in Part, Advance Class By Likeaneagle
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...c=8340&st=0
Birth-death-birth- the begining to the end By year2027
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...91&hl=death
The second death By year2027
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...73&hl=death
Prophets of Doom, It's the End of the World! By Mr Hammeroni
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...16&hl=death
I must Be Brain Dead by satori001
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...;hl=death\
Dying??? by A la prochain
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...47&hl=death
Way teachings of the death of Jesus Christ plus, traditions of the Way ministry cult by year2027
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...23&hl=death
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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irisheyes
WS: thanks for your answer to Patrick. I wasn't quite sure how to put in words how I felt, but you seemed to do it quite well. I must say I agree. There has always been a side of society which thinks believing is the be all and end all. However, as for TWI, it was a way to blame the average Joe believer and always have him in guilt and striving for something unattainable.
Anyway, that's how I feel. Now, about your issue of death and the devil; do you not believe in his existence or do you not believe he has power?
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Watered Garden
I don't know that I can add much doctrinally, but we had a question-and-answer session in our church Sunday as a sermon series was wrapping up. Somehow we touched on the subject of death. One person stated that death was NOT evil, death is a friend. I pointed out the verse in Romans "the last enemy that shall be defeated is death." "Yes but death is not evil" was the quick reply. The pastor chimed in with how he is actually looking forward to his death because then he will be in heaven with Jesus. Not looking forward to the dying process, though.
I don't believe death was in God's original plan, since if Adam and Eve had not sinned they would have not had the seeds of death sown in them. However, they did, and now we all do.
I don't think death is something to look forward to myself. For one thing, I don't believe people go immediately to heaven or hell upon their demise. There's too much in the Bible that contradicts that POV. I do believe that ultimately I will have eternal life through Christ Jesus my lord.
Hope this helps. I'm more into simple faith than complex theologies these days.
WG
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cman
http://www.sacredartofliving.org/
food for thought
and more if you want to get into the books....
and yes they cost a little money to make and move
that's why my ears perk up when I know someone is speaking on this topic
and know what they are talking about
and give it a good listen as it flows from the heart
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waysider
Having left TWI many years ago, I no longer think of the "devil" as an entity, per se.
I now personally view the devil and his powers as being metaphoric in essence.
That doesn't make any of it less real for me.
A lot of things we were taught about the devil and devil spirits, I now consider to be highly inaccurate in a Biblical sense.
In other words, no, I don't believe in his existence as an individual entity yet I still believe the concept, itself, is valid.
Ditto on the question regarding power. The power exists but I don't believe it emanates from the "devil" we have come to know through TWI and mainstream Christianity in general.
Funny thing is, I actually feel like I had a pretty good handle on much of this stuff BEFORE I got "in the Word".
TWI taught me I had to put God under some kind of spiritual microscope and never step back to get a panoramic view.
Here's an example.
Before TWI, I was pretty sure God could "talk" to me in non verbal ways such as nature and emotions.
Then when I got involved with TWI, it seemed like I had to put Him in a jar like a captive firefly and never marvel at the beauty of it as it flits carefree through the night sky.
I don't know if that makes much sense but I wanted to try to answer your question honestly.
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irisheyes
WS: I haven't been able to figure out how to copy a piece of someone's answer yet. Seems my computer has more brains than I do. Anyway, I totally understand about putting God in a box, so to speak. When did you get away from TWI? I know we have had to sift through what we were taught; however, I do think the devil is real. I mean, what do you do with all the scriptures about him and devil spirits? Especially in Jesus' time. Lots of spirits written about. What about Ephesians 6 that we wrestle not against flesh and blood. We still wrestle. Though I have never been face to face with that realm, I still think there is something to say for knowing about your enemy. Don't all these coaches study the opposing teams so they can learn their strengths and weaknesses? And the military does likewise. Just wouldn't want you to get broadsided if you aren't right.
WG: I hope I'm remembering what everyone wrote that I wanted to comment on and getting it right
I think you said you don't believe people go right to heaven/hell when they die. I know that was what TWI taught and as yet I haven't been able to find much to contradict that. But, here's a thought you may already realize: Since there is no time in death, no consciousness, once we die the very next instant will be eternity for us. So, I figure if I live to be 80, I have a few more years to go before I see the Lord, but that's it. If he doesn't return til 5020, I won't know that, all I'll know is however long my life lasts here. That is a great comfort to me, as people believing their loved ones are in heaven is a comfort to them. I understand that too.
And Roy: Good grief!! Thank you so much for taking the time to look up all that stuff and forward it on. Now I have something to do tonight (just kidding). It will probably at least take me til tomorrow to read it all. Honestly, I appreciate it so much and I am anxious to get through it.
Have a great holiday y'all.
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irisheyes
CMan: Thanks for the info. I haven't seen The Quest. Is it something I could rent? It sounded quite interesting. Anything, like the other cite, that tries to help people deal with death is a-okay to me.
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waysider
Hi Irish
To capture a post, you click on quote/reply in the lower right.
Then, you can delete sections that are not relevant to your commentary or insert your own commentary as you see fit.
You can bold it, underline it, color it, or whatever else you think will show a separation of your words from the captured post.
--------------------------------------------------------------
I "drifted" away in about 1990.
(Took "the class" in 1972)
Re: The devil.
Remember when you were a kid and the devil was represented as a guy with a red cape, horns and a pitchfork?
Fast forward to your time in TWI where you learned that he was actually not that guy with a pitchfork, but, rather, a spiritual creature.
The reality was still there, but your perception was altered.
Now take that one step farther.
Perhaps he's not a spiritual creature, but, rather, a metaphoric concept that represents some larger truth.
Again, the reality is still there, but your perception has been once again altered.
Ditto on the devil spirits and power surrounding this whole subject.
You see, it does not nullify the scriptures that pertain to this subject.
Instead, it raises them to a new level of awareness.
But like I said, this is stuff I thought I had figured out (somewhat) before I got into The Way.
I could be completely wrong.
But, it seems like I am moving back in this direction in my thinking.
Have a happy turkey day----That's an order!!!!!
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Oakspear
Although I personally don't view death as necessarily evil, I don't subscribe to the biblical view, but I don't understand how a bible believer could say that death is not evil, or that they welcomed death without ignoring the verse that calls death an enemy.
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Patrick and Sarah
Wow, great dialogue and heart in this here little thread.
Will be doing turkey day and the local "Center for Spiritual Living". I love that. I love it when people ask what I'm doing today and I can reply Well I'm stopping by the local "Center for Spiritual Living" then going here and there.
Waysider,
I appreciate your disagreeing with me......I often disagree with myself. As for "believing things into existence", Yes we all embody different consciousness concerning this. The #1 best selling nonfiction book for the last several months has been "The Secret". "The Secret" comes from a new throught perspective. I could only finish about half the book. I did not like it because it was all about how I could "get stuff", very materialistic use of Spiritual Law. A lot of people love it. It is also the main premise in "The secret of how to Get Rich" and such positive thinking books.
The Idea's come from the realm of what is possible and are inspired Creation. Electricity was a law that could have been harnessed when ever man came to the consiousness of it. Whenever man, or a man, embodied an Idea enough to bring it into existance. Electricity was available when Moses walked the earth, but nobody new how to use it. This is the same with Spiritual Law. We all use Spiritual law to the extent that we can embody it. I like Pauls answer in 1 Corinthians.........."And yet I show you a more perfect way.......Love"
As far as embodying this "Law of Believing" Jesus seemed to do very will with it. He had a "Son of God" Consciousness, a "Christ" consciousness, that things just happened when he spoke the Word. I think that this Christ Consiousness is when our Spirit, which is God or Christ in us, and the same in every man, and our soul are united in. Our Soul is who we are individually and has a lot to it including everyting we have ever heard, thought, felt, believed, experienced. Our ego is part of our soul. When we get our soul to line up with Love/God, then we are walking with a purified soul or a soul that is lined up with Spirit.........This basically what we did in TWI with the "Renewed Mind". We where constantly bringing ourselves back to Christ consiousness and purifying our souls. This is why the spiritual practice that we learned with TWI was good in many ways.
That went a little long and has not a lot to do with the topic "Death" except that a belief is a powerful thing. A belief influences how we live our lives. Our beliefs reside in our souls, and can be changed. As we come to more knowlege, and we, through trial and error, cause and effect, come to new conclusions we cange our beliefs. "The truth shall make you free" This is why some beliefs bring us into bondage that is "death" and some beliefs are truth and result in freedom or "life".
What you believe about God, the Devil, Life and Death has a powerful effect on the life you live in the here and now.
Patrick
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irisheyes
(Took "the class" in 1972) Me, too, Shelter Island, NY
Now take that one step farther.
Perhaps he's not a spiritual creature, but, rather, a metaphoric concept that represents some larger truth.
Again, the reality is still there, but your perception has been once again altered.
Ditto on the devil spirits and power surrounding this whole subject.
You see, it does not nullify the scriptures that pertain to this subject.
I hope this means I caught on and your instructions were "easy to follow". Thanks. Anyway, maybe I'm plain stupid, but I dont' understand how you can call a metaphoric concept a reality. To me a metaphoric concept is way intangible. A concept is intangible. A metaphor represents something like something, right? I get that, I think. The "devil" is like evil or bad (vs. good). Correct? Do you feel the same way about God? Is He a metaphoric concept also? Is He the good vs. your evil? Just trying to understand....
Oh, well, I still need some practice on the color thing,huh?
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irisheyes
Patrick, Got more out of your answer this time than last. I knew about "The Secret." I dismissed it once I learned what it entailed. I guess I'm not ready to accept TWI may have had a point about believing. Not the way they used it anyway. I think you hit on a big thing in your answer and that is the difference between a belief and believing. Noun/verb. I have often wondered how Jesus did the awesome stuff he did. Was it just a matter of mind over matter? (Clever, huh?) I guess I am just a logical thinker. I want black and white, not color. I want things that are easy to explain, easy to understand. I don't necessarily get everything you are trying to convey. But, I am glad you've taken time to help me out and hope you won't think I'm too dumb to work with here.
I'm glad you've found a place you feel good about and comfortable with.
Happy Thanksgiving!
P.S. The soul stuff was real neat though, got that.
Oakspear: I agree with your view about believers thinking death is the enemy. After all, that is what it says. But, like you said, is it always evil? I wouldn't consider dying in my sleep some night necessarily evil. I mean, I'm not gonna get out of here alive, unless the Lord returns for me. So, all in all, I can't say I'm afraid of death. Maybe just the process. What do you believe?
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cman
Death, your death, what is it about?
Ok, enemy, yep, check.
Love your enemies...hmmm
How does one go about reconciling these two statements?
Of course we are to love all the time.
And that is good for us and everyone around us.
To face death with this love is a task.
Learning what death is, and what happens helps.
Not physically but 'who we are'.
Cause whatever is REALITY will not change by anyone's believing.
O yes it may change one's attitude today but tomorrow we die.
And REALITY will slap you upside the head, believe it or not.
....what is it that could have a person love this enemy
not because of the pains of today, the sorrows of this life
but because of the truth of REALITY destined to be revealed
well that horse can be rode but you ain't goin to break it
the things we CANNOT see are seen in death and dying....
i die daily, Paul said...
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waysider
Irisheyes
Yup, "Ya done good."
Now, if you drop below the bottom quote bracket before you start to type, it will display the captured section in its entirety.
Regarding the concept question:
I think a concept can also represent reality.
Take, for example, the concept of God describing Himself in terms that would normally be used to describe a flesh and bones human being. He bares His mighty arm. His wrath is angered, etc.
Yet, we know from scripture that he does not have human physical attributes. He is spirit.
It's a concept described in a way that helps our human minds understand, to a degree, the reality of what is being expressed. Perhaps metaphoric is not the correct term, semantically, but It is how I have come to think of concepts that express reality.
As CMan pointed out, Paul said "I die daily."
It wasn't true from a reality perspective but there is a concept being expressed there that addresses some specific and real part of life and death.
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TheEvan
Ideas have consequences.
A consequence of Way ideas concerning death is the manner of their funerals. They were clinical, emotionless affairs giving no room for loved ones to grieve publically and enjoy the warm support of family and friends. It shows up in the insistence of saying so-and-so is 'asleep' and in refusing an open casket, preferring no casket at all and a total unwillingness to embrace the pain of loss and give full expression to that pain. That wouldn't be "positive", y'know.
While I still accept most of the basic ideas of the state of the dead taught in Wayology, I think it is incomplete.
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irisheyes
Lots of semantics here though. I guess this would fall in line with 'concepts' in a way. The 'concept' of death is being separated from our loved ones. Anything really attributed to death must be a 'concept' because we have no idea what the reality of it is, except of course that we quit breathing, our hearts stop beating, etc. I must say I think Jesus was trying to tell us by loving our enemies that we could help them overcome hate which would probably cause them to be unbelievers. But, let me go a step further. I think there's a scripture were it says something about heaven and us being seated with our enemies. What if it's our enemies and how we treat them that will be our ultimate "judgment"? The O.T. talks about revenge in places. Not so the New. I was part of a discussion this past week on righteous anger. Like when Jesus threw people out of the temple. We came to the conclusion that righteous anger was probably a reaction that dealt with the root of the problem without letting emotions take over. So, there goes revenge out the window. How many of us were able to have righteous anger about TWI? Did anyone ever get right back in LCM's face. I'd love to know. I didn't stick around long enough to find out. But, way off topic, there. Yes, bottom line must be love, love, love. But can we ever reconcile love with killing all the first born (at passover)? What about slaying 400 prophets at once? How's about Sodom and Gomorrha? Stuff like that and deciding about what the Bible says about death gets me crazy.
Cman: I think your take on reality is real. Love it.
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