Even if it was never documented - I would have a hard time believing that Mary remained a virgin after Jesus' birth.
I doubt God would be like: So hey... Joseph! Umm... stay married to this chick... but like... never have sex with her or have kids to take care of you in your old age... m'kay?
I just don't think so - I thought back in those old days that they valued having lots of kids right?
For me to it's obvious that Jesus Christ had half brothers and sisters, and I think I can relate to the need to develope new manners of talking to people. One thing I think about often is, "What's the profit in this conversation for them." Am I adding to their confusion, am I just looking to show off what I know, will this talk actually bless them?, are some of the things I consider. I'm sure there are many other things that would serve the function as a "check up from the neck up" as one is speaking God's word.
Right now some of the things I'm considering the most is that as far as speaking God's word is that it's not about convincing them as much as it is about pleasing God. But thinking that in no way means that I have the right to speak the truth in any manner except love. Please note that I'm saying that I'm thinking about it and definately not that I've mastered anything.
I think if you're going to determine whether Jesus had brothers & sisters or whether or not Mary remained a virgin you have to go with the only source that addresses these issues: the bible. What we think is common sense is not necessarily what the writers of the bible thought
Whether or not it "makes sense" that Joseph would marry a woman and not have sex with her would be somewhat irrelevant if that's what the bible said. There are instances, rare as they are, of unconsumated marriages.
I think it's pretty clear that "brothers" means "brothers". the only reason to interpret it as "cousins" or half-brothers or what have you is to make someone's doctrine "fit like a hand in a glove"
I think if you're going to determine whether Jesus had brothers & sisters or whether or not Mary remained a virgin you have to go with the only source that addresses these issues: the bible. What we think is common sense is not necessarily what the writers of the bible thought.
Matthew 13:55-57 (New American Standard Bible)
55"Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?
56"And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?"
Mark 6:2-3 (New American Standard Bible)
2When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?
3"Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?" And they took offense at Him.
Do I think Mary and Joseph had kids together? Sure. I'm pretty confident about that.
Do I think they were considered Jesus' brothers and sisters? I'm pretty confidant about that, too.
Some people don't count ADOPTED children as "really" children, but-unless one is talking about genetics
and inherited genes-I beg to differ. And that's with NO parents in common.
If you do a google search, you will be amazed how many famous people were adopted as children.
I have a good friend who was adopted as a child.
He had, I think, five siblings who were all adopted from different families. None of them became celebrities,but they were a close knit and loving family.
Just a couple of things to think about (I'm not going to bring up early Christian extra-Biblical writings here, just scripture).
According to the folks who maintain the perpetual virginity of Mary, adelphos/adelphe can refer to brothers, step-brothers, cousins, or other familial relationship. According to the folks who maintain that Mary had other children, adelphos/adelphe can refer to blood brothers/sisters only, right?
Let's look at the verses that the 'brethren of the Lord' crowd uses as their proof-text:
Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph (Ioses) and Simon and Judas?
Mat 13:56 And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all this?"
(the account in Mark parallels this...)
Let's now take a look at a different narrative (the crucifixion):
According to the account in Matthew and Mark:
Mat 27:55 There were also many women there, looking on from afar, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him;
Mat 27:56 among whom were Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph (Ioses), and the mother of the sons of Zeb'edee.
Mark 15:26 says: There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salo'me,
According to the account in John:
Jhn 19:25 So the soldiers did this. But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Mag'dalene.
Jhn 19:26 When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!"
Jhn 19:27 Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.
---------------------
Analysis:
According to Matthew and Mark, Jesus had (adelphos) James, Joseph (Ioses), and Simon and Judas...(all, by the interpretation of the 'brethren' crowd, the children of Mary)
According to the crucifixion account in John, there were three women particularly menitoned: Jesus' mother (Mary), Mary, the wife of Cloas (and sister -- adelphe -- of Mary, the mother of Jesus), and Mary Magdalene.
According to the crucifixion accounts in Matthew there were Mary, the mother of James and Joseph (Ioses), and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.
According to the crucifixion account in Mark, there were Mary Magdalene, Mary, the mother of James the lesser and Joseph (Ioses) and Salome.
The mother of James and Joseph in Matthew 27 is NOT Mary, Jesus' mother...(I find it inconceivable that the author would say the 'mother of James and Joseph' without mentioning Jesus...if they were siblings)
Therefore, from harmonizing the above, it appears that there were (at least) four women mentioned:
Mary, Jesus' mother
Mary, James' and Joseph's mother and Clopas' wife, and the sister (adelphe) of Mary, the mother of Jesus
Zebedee's wife (and mother of the James and John) (Salome?)
Mary Magdalene
So now, let us assume that adelphos/adelphe MUST be blood brothers/sisters.
-->This means that the parents of Mary (Jesus mother) and Mary (James and Joseph's mother) were both given the same first name? Was their father George Foreman?
OK, well maybe adelphe could talk about female cousins, but adelphos MUST refer to blood brothers...(not bloody likely, but what the heck)
-->This means that two cousins (Mary and Mary) would have to name not just ONE of their children the same name, but TWO of their children the same name. What are the odds? I think we can assume that these two Marys knew each other for most of their lives...the odds even get worse...
The only way that these verses can be reasonably harmonized is IF adelphos/adelphe can refer to relatives of whatever order, not just blood siblings.
And that contention (that adelphos can ONLY refer to blood brothers, not cousins, or other relatives, and that adelphe can ONLY refer to blood sisters, not cousins, or other relatives) is the sole basis upon which the 'brethren of the Lord' crowd bases its arguments.
Maintain perpetual virginity and you have a very unique situation...
Maintain 'brethren of the Lord' and you have to do all sorts of linguistic contortions to make it work...
You decide...(sorry for lifting your line, Wordwolf)
-->This means that the parents of Mary (Jesus mother) and Mary (James and Joseph's mother) were both given the same first name? Was their father George Foreman?
I lived next door to a Spanish girl in the Bronx who had two or three sons with the same name (sorry, can't remember the exact #) because they had different fathers with the same name. :wacko: I never knew who she was yelling at. Also, Jose is an extremely common name these days with illegals. Now that I got that out of the way, Sunny: I "facilitate" a bible study in a Methodist church open to any denomination which is based on Methodist teachings. Naturally, we have come upon this problem once or twice, and lots of other similar ones, too. I get so upset about the Catholic bs, and I also get upset that the protestants are so passive, or unargumentative. However, when dealing with this particular group, I have had to ask myself this question countless times: Will it really matter when they stand before God? Does it matter to our salvation if Jesus had brothers and sisters? I always state my belief. I also always state I could be wrong WHEN I can't show chapter and verse. I've been with this particular bunch of people for almost four years now and they are used to me, as I am used to them. However, we are all there to study the Word and learn it and we respect what everyone has to say, but we mostly respect the Word. Sometimes, though, it takes awhile for people to trust it. I've learned so much from them and hopefully vice versa. How long have you been with this group?
Thanks for all the great insites on this subject. And thank you markomalley for those interesting facts. I had to sit back and think about what you said. Where did you get that info?
irisheyes--- I've been in this particular group for 3 years. Every year is different with people coming and going. So this year there's a whole new group of ladies with us. Many of the new ones have never been in a bible study. It's hard for them to commit to every week too. This past week there was only 4 of us in my group. This topic was not brought up either. There were no questions about Jesus siblings in this study. Although it was covered in the reading material. I thought for sure this one women was going to point it out to everyone, but she just said nothing
Thanks for all the great insites on this subject. And thank you markomalley for those interesting facts. I had to sit back and think about what you said. Where did you get that info?
Has it been brought up that James, of the book, was Jesus' brother?
No, that has not been brought up..as yet. We're at the last two parts of this study book and will began a new book in Jan. We're only up to Mark chapter 7 right now. We have a ways to go.
-->This means that two cousins (Mary and Mary) would have to name not just ONE of their children the same name, but TWO of their children the same name. What are the odds?
I don't know...do you? I agree that it's not common now...but then?
Well, yeah, the George Foreman example is just plain weird...especially in our culture, but my point is that what we might consider common sense is not necessarily what would be common sense in a completely alien society. Look at all the relatives of Johann Sebastian Bach with the first name "Johann", including two of his sons, one of his brothers, his father, his father's brother, two of his father's cousins (brothers) and JSB's cousin.
Well, yeah, the George Foreman example is just plain weird...especially in our culture, but my point is that what we might consider common sense is not necessarily what would be common sense in a completely alien society. Look at all the relatives of Johann Sebastian Bach with the first name "Johann", including two of his sons, one of his brothers, his father, his father's brother, two of his father's cousins (brothers) and JSB's cousin.
Actually, you illustrate what I'm talking about perfectly...(glad I'm familiar with the example that you used)
Johann Sebastian Bach was born from Johann Ambrosius Bach and had a brother Johann Christoph Bach and had sons Johann Christian and Johann Christoph.
In Germany up to about the mid 19th century, it was common to assign three names: the Christian name, the Secular name, and the Surname. The Christian name was given to a patron saint (in this case St. John). The secular name was what people commonly used to identify a person...and, obviously, the surname identified the family.'
Sort of like what some families do with middle names in this country.
The point is that people wouldn't say: Johann and Johann...they'd say Christoph and Christian!
Let's assume your middle name was 'Blake.' If somebody said 'Hey, Blake, come here!' you likely wouldn't even turn your head.
Now, to my knowledge, in the Hebrew culture of the time, a person was identified by nnnn, son (daughter) of nnnnn, from ccccc. of the tribe of nnnnn. Under those circumstances, there wouldn't be any way to distinguish between two siblings who had the same name. (Note that Magdalene, as in Mary Magdalene, identifies the town from where she came: Magdala...a town on the western shore of the Sea of Galilee).
I thought that the biblical example that we were referring to had sets of cousins with the same name? Specifically, two cousins named Mary each with two sons named James & Joseph?
I just went back and re-read your long post, at first I didn't catch that Mary and Mary are called sisters in the KJV...and I agree, there is nothing that indicates that parents gave their children the same first name, and the reasons that you mention why it would not occur are sound. Children of cousins with the same names? Why not? John the Baptist's family resisted his father naming him John because there were no other family members with that name, kind of points to there being a different pools of names that each family or clan drew from.
I think most of my argument came from misunderstanding your whole point...carry on then
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Nero
Even if it was never documented - I would have a hard time believing that Mary remained a virgin after Jesus' birth.
I doubt God would be like: So hey... Joseph! Umm... stay married to this chick... but like... never have sex with her or have kids to take care of you in your old age... m'kay?
I just don't think so - I thought back in those old days that they valued having lots of kids right?
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JeffSjo
Hi sunnyfla,
For me to it's obvious that Jesus Christ had half brothers and sisters, and I think I can relate to the need to develope new manners of talking to people. One thing I think about often is, "What's the profit in this conversation for them." Am I adding to their confusion, am I just looking to show off what I know, will this talk actually bless them?, are some of the things I consider. I'm sure there are many other things that would serve the function as a "check up from the neck up" as one is speaking God's word.
Right now some of the things I'm considering the most is that as far as speaking God's word is that it's not about convincing them as much as it is about pleasing God. But thinking that in no way means that I have the right to speak the truth in any manner except love. Please note that I'm saying that I'm thinking about it and definately not that I've mastered anything.
I hope things go well with you sunnyfla.
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Oakspear
I think if you're going to determine whether Jesus had brothers & sisters or whether or not Mary remained a virgin you have to go with the only source that addresses these issues: the bible. What we think is common sense is not necessarily what the writers of the bible thought
Whether or not it "makes sense" that Joseph would marry a woman and not have sex with her would be somewhat irrelevant if that's what the bible said. There are instances, rare as they are, of unconsumated marriages.
I think it's pretty clear that "brothers" means "brothers". the only reason to interpret it as "cousins" or half-brothers or what have you is to make someone's doctrine "fit like a hand in a glove"
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Sushi
HERE!
(As usual, there is adult language and themes. Yada Yada Yada........
)
The whole movie is worth watching, imnsho. Should be required viewing for all Christian ex-cult people.
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WordWolf
Matthew 13:55-57 (New American Standard Bible)
55"Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?
56"And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?"
Mark 6:2-3 (New American Standard Bible)
2When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?
3"Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?" And they took offense at Him.
Do I think Mary and Joseph had kids together? Sure. I'm pretty confident about that.
Do I think they were considered Jesus' brothers and sisters? I'm pretty confidant about that, too.
Some people don't count ADOPTED children as "really" children, but-unless one is talking about genetics
and inherited genes-I beg to differ. And that's with NO parents in common.
Some people disagree. Good for them.
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waysider
ADOPTED!
Yeah, never thought of it quite that way.
Jesus was Joseph's step-son.
If you do a google search, you will be amazed how many famous people were adopted as children.
I have a good friend who was adopted as a child.
He had, I think, five siblings who were all adopted from different families. None of them became celebrities,but they were a close knit and loving family.
DNA seems to have been a moot point for them.
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markomalley
Just a couple of things to think about (I'm not going to bring up early Christian extra-Biblical writings here, just scripture).
According to the folks who maintain the perpetual virginity of Mary, adelphos/adelphe can refer to brothers, step-brothers, cousins, or other familial relationship. According to the folks who maintain that Mary had other children, adelphos/adelphe can refer to blood brothers/sisters only, right?
Let's look at the verses that the 'brethren of the Lord' crowd uses as their proof-text:
Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph (Ioses) and Simon and Judas?
Mat 13:56 And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all this?"
(the account in Mark parallels this...)
Let's now take a look at a different narrative (the crucifixion):
According to the account in Matthew and Mark:
Mat 27:55 There were also many women there, looking on from afar, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him;
Mat 27:56 among whom were Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph (Ioses), and the mother of the sons of Zeb'edee.
Mark 15:26 says: There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salo'me,
According to the account in John:
Jhn 19:25 So the soldiers did this. But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Mag'dalene.
Jhn 19:26 When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!"
Jhn 19:27 Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.
---------------------
Analysis:
According to Matthew and Mark, Jesus had (adelphos) James, Joseph (Ioses), and Simon and Judas...(all, by the interpretation of the 'brethren' crowd, the children of Mary)
According to the crucifixion account in John, there were three women particularly menitoned: Jesus' mother (Mary), Mary, the wife of Cloas (and sister -- adelphe -- of Mary, the mother of Jesus), and Mary Magdalene.
According to the crucifixion accounts in Matthew there were Mary, the mother of James and Joseph (Ioses), and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.
According to the crucifixion account in Mark, there were Mary Magdalene, Mary, the mother of James the lesser and Joseph (Ioses) and Salome.
The mother of James and Joseph in Matthew 27 is NOT Mary, Jesus' mother...(I find it inconceivable that the author would say the 'mother of James and Joseph' without mentioning Jesus...if they were siblings)
Therefore, from harmonizing the above, it appears that there were (at least) four women mentioned:
Mary, Jesus' mother
Mary, James' and Joseph's mother and Clopas' wife, and the sister (adelphe) of Mary, the mother of Jesus
Zebedee's wife (and mother of the James and John) (Salome?)
Mary Magdalene
So now, let us assume that adelphos/adelphe MUST be blood brothers/sisters.
-->This means that the parents of Mary (Jesus mother) and Mary (James and Joseph's mother) were both given the same first name? Was their father George Foreman?
OK, well maybe adelphe could talk about female cousins, but adelphos MUST refer to blood brothers...(not bloody likely, but what the heck)
-->This means that two cousins (Mary and Mary) would have to name not just ONE of their children the same name, but TWO of their children the same name. What are the odds? I think we can assume that these two Marys knew each other for most of their lives...the odds even get worse...
The only way that these verses can be reasonably harmonized is IF adelphos/adelphe can refer to relatives of whatever order, not just blood siblings.
And that contention (that adelphos can ONLY refer to blood brothers, not cousins, or other relatives, and that adelphe can ONLY refer to blood sisters, not cousins, or other relatives) is the sole basis upon which the 'brethren of the Lord' crowd bases its arguments.
Maintain perpetual virginity and you have a very unique situation...
Maintain 'brethren of the Lord' and you have to do all sorts of linguistic contortions to make it work...
You decide...(sorry for lifting your line, Wordwolf)
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ChattyKathy
:blink:
(good to see you around these parts Mark)
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irisheyes
I lived next door to a Spanish girl in the Bronx who had two or three sons with the same name (sorry, can't remember the exact #) because they had different fathers with the same name. :wacko: I never knew who she was yelling at. Also, Jose is an extremely common name these days with illegals. Now that I got that out of the way, Sunny: I "facilitate" a bible study in a Methodist church open to any denomination which is based on Methodist teachings. Naturally, we have come upon this problem once or twice, and lots of other similar ones, too. I get so upset about the Catholic bs, and I also get upset that the protestants are so passive, or unargumentative. However, when dealing with this particular group, I have had to ask myself this question countless times: Will it really matter when they stand before God? Does it matter to our salvation if Jesus had brothers and sisters? I always state my belief. I also always state I could be wrong WHEN I can't show chapter and verse. I've been with this particular bunch of people for almost four years now and they are used to me, as I am used to them. However, we are all there to study the Word and learn it and we respect what everyone has to say, but we mostly respect the Word. Sometimes, though, it takes awhile for people to trust it. I've learned so much from them and hopefully vice versa. How long have you been with this group?
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Sunnyfla
Thanks for all the great insites on this subject. And thank you markomalley for those interesting facts. I had to sit back and think about what you said. Where did you get that info?
irisheyes--- I've been in this particular group for 3 years. Every year is different with people coming and going. So this year there's a whole new group of ladies with us. Many of the new ones have never been in a bible study. It's hard for them to commit to every week too. This past week there was only 4 of us in my group. This topic was not brought up either. There were no questions about Jesus siblings in this study. Although it was covered in the reading material. I thought for sure this one women was going to point it out to everyone, but she just said nothing
It's was good hearing from you all.
XOXO Sunnyfla
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def59
Has it been brought up that James, of the book, was Jesus' brother?
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markomalley
The Bible...its all right there.
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Sunnyfla
No, that has not been brought up..as yet. We're at the last two parts of this study book and will began a new book in Jan. We're only up to Mark chapter 7 right now. We have a ways to go.
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Oakspear
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markomalley
A fine question. I do not recall any examples in scripture. Or in the limited amount of Patristic writings that I've read.
Not to say that there's not an example...but I can't think of any one.
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TheInvisibleDan
Brings to my mind to the recent hoopla over The Lost Tomb of Jesus promoted by James Cameron the past year.
And more recently the schoolteacher who let her students name a teddy bear "Mohammad".
And the multitude of "sebastians" which inhabit a neighboring town here, in no small part due to the local Church
which bears his name.
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cman
ha..yeah some views are here just for entertainment i think...
God came down and boinked Mary...
Did any one else?
Or did God boink others?
Kind of funny in a real sort of way...
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Oakspear
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markomalley
I agree.
However, I just consider, in the absence of convincing evidence otherwise, common sense. The George Forman example is so funny because it's ludicrous.
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Oakspear
Well, yeah, the George Foreman example is just plain weird...especially in our culture, but my point is that what we might consider common sense is not necessarily what would be common sense in a completely alien society. Look at all the relatives of Johann Sebastian Bach with the first name "Johann", including two of his sons, one of his brothers, his father, his father's brother, two of his father's cousins (brothers) and JSB's cousin.
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markomalley
Actually, you illustrate what I'm talking about perfectly...(glad I'm familiar with the example that you used)
Johann Sebastian Bach was born from Johann Ambrosius Bach and had a brother Johann Christoph Bach and had sons Johann Christian and Johann Christoph.
In Germany up to about the mid 19th century, it was common to assign three names: the Christian name, the Secular name, and the Surname. The Christian name was given to a patron saint (in this case St. John). The secular name was what people commonly used to identify a person...and, obviously, the surname identified the family.'
(You can take a look here: http://www.rieperoots.com/MYPAGES/Names/customs.html for some corroborating facts)
Sort of like what some families do with middle names in this country.
The point is that people wouldn't say: Johann and Johann...they'd say Christoph and Christian!
Let's assume your middle name was 'Blake.' If somebody said 'Hey, Blake, come here!' you likely wouldn't even turn your head.
Now, to my knowledge, in the Hebrew culture of the time, a person was identified by nnnn, son (daughter) of nnnnn, from ccccc. of the tribe of nnnnn. Under those circumstances, there wouldn't be any way to distinguish between two siblings who had the same name. (Note that Magdalene, as in Mary Magdalene, identifies the town from where she came: Magdala...a town on the western shore of the Sea of Galilee).
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Oakspear
I thought that the biblical example that we were referring to had sets of cousins with the same name? Specifically, two cousins named Mary each with two sons named James & Joseph?
I just went back and re-read your long post, at first I didn't catch that Mary and Mary are called sisters in the KJV...and I agree, there is nothing that indicates that parents gave their children the same first name, and the reasons that you mention why it would not occur are sound. Children of cousins with the same names? Why not? John the Baptist's family resisted his father naming him John because there were no other family members with that name, kind of points to there being a different pools of names that each family or clan drew from.
I think most of my argument came from misunderstanding your whole point...carry on then
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