Personal Attacks

[Biblefan Dave]

I am not the super-spiritual Bible-thumper I once was when I was in TWI. I have had no consistent ties to CES or CFFM. So, how did I get over the anger against TWI? After all, my whole life and mentally was taken away when I left TWI. I dabbled in a couple of churches but that did not satisfy me, I still felt the void. I joined a science fiction fan club and was able to hang around with a great and interesting group of people. That filled a lot of the void.

Now, getting back to the subject at hand. When people were in TWI, yeah, hurtful things happened. LCM called people queers when they weren't. LCM did the M&A thing causing friendships to end or be put on hold. Some women were pressured into having sex with VPW, LCM, and some other leaders. Was it rape? I don't know, I wasn't there. If the women agreed to it at the time and considered it some kind of honor to serve the MOG, and then later considered it rape after they left TWI, well, I do have a problem with considering it rape years after the fact. But, that's just my opinion. I wish I could wave the magic wand and erase all of the times women were pressured or talked into having sex with any of the TWI leaders. Yes, it was certainly a bad thing.

Now, if you really, really, think about it, most of the hurtful acts were being yelled at and the sense of betrayal. People get yelled at all the time by parents, children, significant others, bosses, policemen, other drivers, etc. Getting yelled at is no reason to harbor bitterness and resentment. Yeah, it might make you angry at the time, but so what, life goes on.

Betrayal. That's a big thing. We somehow thought that we as being part of TWI had all the answers, all the truth, and that there was nothing taught that wasn't true to God's Word. We thought we had the corner on truth. We thought we were head and shoulders in Christendom above all the Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Catholics, Pentecostals, and every other denomination. How dare the leaders of TWI convince us we have all the truth? We thought the TWI leaders couldn't possibly interpret the Bible incorrectly and teach us anything that wasn't true. We thought that all TWI leaders walked by revelation 100% of the time and that every single action by a TWI leader was inspired or directed by God. Then what happened. John Lynn and Ralph Dubofsky and John Schoenheit and others confronted the BOT and then started telling as many TWI people as possible some of the things the BOT was doing. Then, many people took a step back and started objectively ascertaining what was happening and it wasn't what we being led to believe. Yes, we were BETRAYED!!!! Some of those things we thought weren't like we thought. We were BETRAYED!!!! How can we ever forgive those leaders? We were BETRAYED!!!! Well, who is bigger, God or the people that betrayed us? I choose God. Betrayal takes many forms. I have known people that were married and one spouse cheated on the other. That person was betrayed and that person went through a nasty divorce. Yet, those people who were never part of TWI learned to forgive their exes. Are we as ex-Wayers incapable of overcoming betrayal while people who were never in TWI can do it. I knew a person who as a kid felt tremendously betrayed and lied to when they put Imperial margarine on their bread and the crown didn't appear on his. That same person opened a bag of Gravy Train and felt betrayed that the little horses and wagon didn't run through the kitchen. The first time I saw one of those scam emails telling me that I had won several million dollars, I felt betrayed and lied to. TWI did not corner the market on betrayal either. People do get over their betrayals.

Some people just can't get over the betrayal and the lies. Were our lives so bad when we were in TWI? We believed that God would do anything for us? We believed that God loved us. We believed that we were around people that loved us with God's love. Yeah, we endured some undeserved "reproofs". Yeah, we endured the pressures to get people in PFAL and to get them to go WOW. Yeah, our lives back then were actually pretty good. What changed when we left? Our routine was disrupted and we had to change the structure of our days. We may have had to go back to regular jobs. The thing that occupied our time and energy was no longer there. How would we ever put our lives back together? Well, if we really think about it, our lives didn't change that much, just our thinking. About 8 years ago, I was living in Maryland in a city where there was a drug and alcohol rehabilitation center. I would go to a Denny's Restaurant and I started meeting a lot of people that were involved in Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous. I hear their stories. One guy robbed a store to get money for drugs, went to prison for 12 years, got involved in AA, and now is a Methodist minister. That guy overcame drug and alcohol addictions. He got over the horrible time of beng incarcerated. Now, he is happy as can be. There are many other stories like that where people overcome terrible situations and now live happy, joyous lives. Please do not presume that life in TWI was anywhere near as bad. Yet, these people overcame their problems. Is it not possible that we can trust God just as much to get over the bitterness and hatred? Now, granted, their replaced their old way of doing things with a new way of life. Many of the ex-TWI sulkers and whiners have done nothing to replace their previous TWI lives with anything they find meaningful and joyful.

[Tom Strange]

Now, if you really, really, think about it, most of the hurtful acts were being yelled at and the sense of betrayal. People get yelled at all the time by parents, children, significant others, bosses, policemen, other drivers, etc. Getting yelled at is no reason to harbor bitterness and resentment. Yeah, it might make you angry at the time, but so what, life goes on.

I don't necessarily agree with that (the portion I've bolded).

[Bumpy]

So are we done playing word games now?

I believe there was a thead recently concerning the entire, "Get over it" idea. In short all people with "get over it" in their own good time and not one second before, and telling them that they should simply because it is 20 years later or because it was their brother or sister in Christ, IMHO only adds fuel to an already burning fire.

In other words, 20 years or 2000 years later, VP is DEAD, Jesus has been crucified, and somewhere in between YOU have turned into dust!

But here, You are fully entitled to be FOREVER the complainer, whiiiiner and boring party cult diner...confessing Jesus and the Bible as your Lord and Saviour! But in reality contributing nothing but negatives!

However we must ALL endeavor to keep the bond of pieces between us, without recommending certain wasted individuals take their modern medicine and anti-depressants before posting!!

I'm SURE this was God's PLAN all along!!

[Eyesopen]

One guy robbed a store to get money for drugs, went to prison for 12 years, got involved in AA, and now is a Methodist minister. That guy overcame drug and alcohol addictions. He got over the horrible time of beng incarcerated. Now, he is happy as can be. There are many other stories like that where people overcome terrible situations and now live happy, joyous lives. Please do not presume that life in TWI was anywhere near as bad. Yet, these people overcame their problems. Is it not possible that we can trust God just as much to get over the bitterness and hatred? Now, granted, their replaced their old way of doing things with a new way of life. Many of the ex-TWI sulkers and whiners have done nothing to replace their previous TWI lives with anything they find meaningful and joyful.

Please do not presume to tell anyone else what their life was like while in twi, for that matter please do not presume to place some sort of meter on any event or series of events in anyones life except your own. That is just dishonest.

As I said people will "get over it" whatever "it" was, in their own good time. If you cannot or do not wish to contribute in a positive way to their recovery than I respectfully request that you at least stop telling them that because this person got over being a drug addict then they should get over "it" as well.

"Many of the ex-TWI sulkers and whiners have done nothing to replace their previous TWI lives with anything they find meaningful and joyful."

How do you know this about anyone...let alone "many"?

Finally please do not call people names...even indirectly. Thank you.

[JeffSjo]

Bumpy,

I have to say that in theory it's possible that saying "get over it" to someone may help them, maybe that even depends on intentions.

For the most part when its done without love it falls somewhere between spiteful and brutal.

When someone adds a healthy dose of sarcasm and words like "complainer and whiner" they are pegged as the ones who are attacking someone.

Right now you seem to be doing that. When I'm convinced someone is intent on attacking someone I usually try to stop that.

So what is it bumpy, just your charming poersonality or is something else going on.

Edited December 20, 2007 by JeffSjo

[Tom Strange]

However we must ALL endeavor to keep the bond of pieces between us, without recommending certain wasted individuals take their modern medicine and anti-depressants before posting!!

I'm SURE this was God's PLAN all along!!

Mein Bumptaster...

To the first part: I haven't been wasted in a long time...

To the second part: Yes... that's a fine testament to the cult we were all in isn't it?

But to those who feel the need to make sure that as long as there's a TWI out there, who want to make sure that folks considering TWI get all of the negative facts about them... and I consider myself one of them... I suppose it won't stop. I'm not "wallowing", nor do I think many here are, but I want to make sure that (if I can help it) none of this happens again... or at least to as few as possible. (did you get that BFD?)

Edited December 20, 2007 by Tom Strange

[Bumpy]

Jeff#7 pa Svenska! There is nobody but Tom I feel like attacking...for the moment! The reason is we are on different time zones, so I never can get into the food fights that count. Are you a hair stylist by chance?

Mr. Strange...that brown acid, ahem, just between you and me, if I make a donation to the anti-Cult Fuehrer, will you send me over a few tabs of your best brown sh$t? Then I will know just HOW STONED your TWI brain remains...!

[rascal]

Were our lives in twi so bad??? In a word.... YES!!!

Maybe not yours...but my sister in christ here at the cafe was drugged and raped by vpw.

My other sister was visciously slandered for not participating....she was 17 and lost everything...yeah in my opinion vpw was evil incarnate :(

My brother in christ chose to die when lcm wouldn`t let his wife lcm`s lover leave hq`s with him.

My sister in Christ was marked and avoided when she refused to participate in a threesom with HIM :(

My brother in Christ died when told to give up his meds....More than one of my sisters in Christ were raped when following leaders orders to hitch hike to lead or to give a creepy guy from twig a ride home...and then told not to press charges lest the ministry be blamed...

My sister in Christ never recieved the medical attention after a lead accident ...she later died...My brother suffers life long physical imparement because of the same wreck....

Our children were aborted at leaderships command...our ailing family members ignored to die alone and abandoned....

Dave...do you have the COURAGE to read of these accounts?? Do you have the COMPASSION to understand the suffering endured at twi leaders hands?? Can you for one instant put aside your knowledge and for a moment place yourself in these peoples shoes???

You read these accounts...and then tell me if you really don`t think that life in twi was really so bad for some of us....grrrr.

Untill you have read and acknowledged the pain inflicted upon innocent people who simply went to vpw and his ministry to be taught about God...get your finger of self rightious judgement out of the collective faces of people here at grease spot....

Untill you know what happened...you are in no position of authority to judge ANYBODIES actions or anger here, bud :(

Edited December 20, 2007 by rascal

[Eyesopen]

In other words, 20 years or 2000 years later, VP is DEAD, Jesus has been crucified, and somewhere in between YOU have turned into dust!

But here, You are fully entitled to be FOREVER the complainer, whiiiiner and boring party cult diner...confessing Jesus and the Bible as your Lord and Saviour! But in reality contributing nothing but negatives!

However we must ALL endeavor to keep the bond of pieces between us, without recommending certain wasted individuals take their modern medicine and anti-depressants before posting!!

I'm SURE this was God's PLAN all along!!

Bumpy darlin',

It's a good thing that I kind of know your personality. You know that I do not whine nor do I complain...well unless my morning bisquits and gravy are late...but concerning twi, I dont think that I ever have.

I really dont think that I contribute negatives but if you think so then please show me where I have done so and we can discuss it or I will apologize. I have absolutely no qualms about accepting my errors as my own.

As far as wasted...not me sweetie! My family is afraid to bring a beer into my house without getting permission two weeks in advance of a major holiday. Puhleez my blood is so pure that an antihystamine makes me dizzy. I talk a big game but I'm a wuss.

Edited December 20, 2007 by Eyesopen

[Bumpy]

Bumpy darlin',

It's a good thing that I kind of know your personality. You know that I do not whine nor do I complain...well unless my morning bisquits and gravy are late...but concerning twi, I dont think that I ever have.

I really dont think that I contribute negatives but if you think so then please show me where I have done so and we can discuss it or I will apologize. I have absolutely no qualms about accepting my errors as my own.

As far as wasted...no me sweetie! My family is afraid to bring a beer into my house without getting permission two weeks in advance of a major holiday. Puhleez my blood is so pure that an antihystamine makes me dizzy. I talk a big game but I'm a wuss.

DAHRLING...You are za most beautiful shark is za Forest...I mean za Tank! Nosssing vill come beteeeen us, not even Bela, bella or anozer Italian shark! I vant you swimmming next to me, za next time you are in a Franz!

BISOUSSSSSS :love3:

[chockfull]

But in reality contributing nothing but negatives!

I want to contribute some negatives...

1. It's not quite a perfect day today. Beautiful blue sky, only 1 cloud.

2. My family isn't perfect either.

3. I dislike my job 1 day out of 30.

4. I only get 4 weeks of vacation.

How am I doing so far?

[Eyesopen]

DAHRLING...You are za most beautiful shark is za Forest...I mean za Tank! Nosssing vill come beteeeen us, not even Bela, bella or anozer Italian shark! I vant you swimmming next to me, za next time you are in a Franz!

BISOUSSSSSS :love3:

This is wonderful news Bump...do they have bisquits and gravy in France?

I want to contribute some negatives...

1. It's not quite a perfect day today. Beautiful blue sky, only 1 cloud.

2. My family isn't perfect either.

3. I dislike my job 1 day out of 30.

4. I only get 4 weeks of vacation.

How am I doing so far?

Hmmm....how about:

It's not a perfect day...it stopped snowing.

My family is full of nut jobs and I fit in perfectly.

I love my job but can't wait to retire.

I spent my last two vacations visiting fellow sharks in other ponds and eating way more than I should have and I got the pics to prove it!

[Bumpy]

This is wonderful news Bump...do they have bisquits and gravy in France?

Hmmm....how about:

No My Darling! Zar is no boooring baskets of biskets over herre in la belle France! Only Champagne, caviar, lovely hors d'oeuvres, and your imagination is za maine course! I am sure it was za same in ohio or kaansaas, or le camp gunnison??? Oui?? ;)

[potato]

Dave, how long did it take you to "get over it", meaning that you don't feel any anger or sadness when you think about getting screamed at or called names by twi leaders, or over the deceptions that were used to dupe you into handing over money and time or giving up friends or hurting your family?

you said you left 20 years ago and you did feel angry for a while, assuming you worked it out so it no longer bothers you. how long did it take? did you get any outside help or did you just study the bible?

I do want to know your answer. I also want to comment that I find it very amusing but also disturbing when people label others "whiners" when you can't hear their voices. I've seen people called whiners here who are giving factual accountings of their experiences. it's interesting to see how people add tone to what they can't hear.

[JeffSjo]

Dear potato,

I've appreciated your posts and your testimony from day one. Thank you for sharing.

I'm begining to wonder if the Bumpster here can respond in any manner other than sarcasm to the heartwrenching issues you bring up. They're not easy things to consider, so as far as the bumpster here goes I'm leaning towards patience on our parts.

[potato]

thank you jeffsjo :) I also enjoy reading your posts. you have a great heart!

bumpy does seem to thrive on flinging insults and hurtful words. not sure what he's trying to prove, but I don't consider them helpful or kind at all... although in the midst of the insults he tossed out he did give me an idea for a band name.

[JeffSjo]

Potato,

Haven't you ever met someone that did that all the time, but still somehow meant well. They just weren't capable of dealing with the heavy stuff.

That's my gut here with the bumpster. I could be wrong, but I'd rather be right on this one.

P.s. Band name? Care to share.

Edited December 20, 2007 by JeffSjo

[doojable]

DAHRLING...You are za most beautiful shark is za Forest...I mean za Tank! Nosssing vill come beteeeen us, not even Bela, bella or anozer Italian shark! I vant you swimmming next to me, za next time you are in a Franz!

BISOUSSSSSS :love3:

Italian Shark? :blink: Where? Does she have pasta? I bet she doesn't put pineapple on her pizza!

How many rows of teeth do you have Eyes? I think you may need them all - and then some.;)

[potato]

P.s. Band name? Care to share.

dude! the "potato rodents".

[JeffSjo]

NARLEY DUDETTE

Edited December 20, 2007 by JeffSjo

[WordWolf]

BTW, Jeff, I don't know if you know this, but your "accept personal messages" option is switched off, so nobody can send you

a private message. If you don't want this, please switch it on.

[Tom Strange]

As far as wasted...not me sweetie! My family is afraid to bring a beer into my house without getting permission two weeks in advance of a major holiday. Puhleez my blood is so pure that an antihystamine makes me dizzy. I talk a big game but I'm a wuss.

...well... maybe not beer...

[doojable]

...well... maybe not beer...

She never did say a word about what happens OUTSIDE her house...Like in Texas...

[Tom Strange]

Mr. Strange...that brown acid, ahem, just between you and me, if I make a donation to the anti-Cult Fuehrer, will you send me over a few tabs of your best brown sh$t? Then I will know just HOW STONED your TWI brain remains...!

Herr Bumpenstein, alas and alack... the brown acid has been gone for years... interested in some window pane instead? Make that donation (in U.S. Dollars) please!

(and do it quickly before the exchange rates change against you!)

[Bumpy]

Herr Bumpenstein, alas and alack... the brown acid has been gone for years... interested in some window pane instead? Make that donation (in U.S. Dollars) please!

(and do it quickly before the exchange rates change against you!)

Pane or Blotter...it all tastes like fodder. Maybe one day we make it to "The Farm" where with the right cocktail concoction of Weirwellian creative staging, we can make a greasy entertainment spot? Need the right props!

PM me the address.