I will say this (from a scriptural point of view, whatever that means), when it gets to the point that you need the court system to right a wrong in your religious group, there are some serious things wrong with the group, from so many angles, to the point its not worth saving.
I am reading the old testiment andhow serious God is about rules and regulations and themanner you treat one another.
he is very detailed. In our culture it is often sue or be sued. I think we have teacher who will guide us inall things that come up in our life to me it is like telling a christian donot go to the dr. because God will heal you.
I do not think God is in the dark and we go about doing things like taking people to court without his knowledge of the situation , i say we have a spirit and Jesus will guide us in what we do as we remain mindful of the scriptures. if our course if right it will turn out ok, if not then we may have to learn some more scripture !
Well.. to me twi seems to have proven that it is indeed NOT a christian organization. they are not a church as such.. maybe on the coroporation and tax papers to maintain a tax free status.
P*ul A**en did it right.. he confronted the then trustees. Their reaction? Well.. let's just mark and avoid him.. label him possessed.. worked before ya know.
I think he found there was none among them wise enough to sit as some kind of biblical "judge" of sorts. No arbitrator, or even the possibility of any kind of arbitration, outside of legal action.
I would say that instructions to the first century church were to Christians who wanted to behave in a Christ-like manner, but either got off track or didn't have enough knowledge, wisdom and understanding to do things right.
These very scriptures were twisted by TWI to strongly discourage any kind of legal action against them, no matter what they did. And trust me, they did plenty. Check out some of the threads on child abuse, adultery, etc.
The legal system was the last recourse. Go to the individual who offended you, and if you don't get resolution go to other believers, go to the elders, and if it can't be resolved any other way, go to a court of law.
Mr. Allen and the others went through all that. Thank God he was successful.
Just as TempleLady about justice within the hallowed halls of the fortress of Zion of TWI. And a few others as well.
I don't believe I've ever seen instruction in scripture for leadership to "cover your azz ". But TWI made a doctrine out of it.
I will say this (from a scriptural point of view, whatever that means), when it gets to the point that you need the court system to right a wrong in your religious group, there are some serious things wrong with the group, from so many angles, to the point its not worth saving.
Dump it and move on.
SOOO TRUE!!!
Trust and Obey,
Did you have any contact with Paul Allen to hear his side of the story? He confronted the BOT. He got nowhere. He did the next best thing. If TWI had been the godly organization it claims to be, then thing would have been a lot different.
If the BOT had been the least bit adeherant to Biblical standards, there would have been no need for this lawuit, because the abuses never would have happened.
There probably could have been 1000 other lawsuits if people had documented some of the abuses better. Bad people get away with things most of the time, I believe.
Number one, I wouldn't have called the big forehead my brother, more like a false prophet or wolf to the flock, and you could throw in all the top hq twi leadership into that pile too.
Secondly, standing by and doing nothing more to stop it just allows evil to reign unchecked like it had for years, from it's heighth in the '70's-'80's clear back to the Van Wert days of the cornfield womanizer's ministry beginings.
The Forehead's arrogance, his delusions regarding his position and his liberties procluded any outside source from mediating any resolution. Justice needed to be hard and swift, but even so, according to an account here on GS, he still hasn't changed his attitude toward his practices, he still thinks he's right...he's not sorry, gee, that doesn't sound too Christian, that sure sounds just like da debil, he's not sorry either.
If you ask the Big Forehead, he'd probably say his actions were Godly and was acting on behalf of God to bless people...still thoroughly deceived, or should I say through-ly.....
I really think if things were "handled correctly" in da dumb ministry, there wouldn't be any NEED for lawsuits. Instead, they seemingly tried to bury the "corpses" while they were still ALIVE..
they defamed the victims, labelled them possessed and dangerous. Look what they did to Pa*l and F*rn. You dare to confront, you get the "mark". Even those who died while in the "hallow" walls of zion couldn't rest in peace without some kind of public inquisition, how "unbelief" or "sin" or some such nonsense supposedly killed them.
vic taught them well.
How to hide the victims, how to intimidate into silence, how to ignore legalities and how to make a "proper" cover story to feed the FLOCK. Don't want them running off or anything..
I think a damn big lawsuit was way overdue.
That settlement must still sting. Not as "prevailing" as they would like to think they are.
It is too bad, in one sense, that the lawsuit was settled out of court, if they had gone to trial all would have been exposed, as it is, they are allowed to continue to deceive and continue to practice error against the ignorant and naive.
I really really doubt that they have anyone on staff as bad as loy.. or who has the unfettered freedom to act as he did. I'll bet they put a FEW safeguards into effect.
Don't want yet ANOTHER real big lawsuit..
and we do have a lot of what is in public record about the evidence.
I kinda think the big forehead is just waiting in the wings for the right moment for a comeback, don't think RR is gonna let it happen anytime soon though, there's a plus!
Did you have any contact with Paul Allen to hear his side of the story? He confronted the BOT. He got nowhere. He did the next best thing. If TWI had been the godly organization it claims to be, then thing would have been a lot different.
Never talked with the Allen's after they left, course I wasn't really close to either anyways at HQ and hadn't a clue anything was going on.
But I'm very thankful they had the balls to file the lawsuit.. Sure shed some light where it was needed, which was the reason I asked the question, cause I know too many Christians that just sit and take the abuse and if they leave no one knows the wiser what "really" happened because they feel they shouldn't take it to the courts and let the public know, and the organization/instituation doesn't allow the truth to be told.
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GT
I feel excluded from this thread.... :unsure:
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GT
I will say this (from a scriptural point of view, whatever that means), when it gets to the point that you need the court system to right a wrong in your religious group, there are some serious things wrong with the group, from so many angles, to the point its not worth saving.
Dump it and move on.
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pond
better to take the wrong? defrauded such words!
I am reading the old testiment andhow serious God is about rules and regulations and themanner you treat one another.
he is very detailed. In our culture it is often sue or be sued. I think we have teacher who will guide us inall things that come up in our life to me it is like telling a christian donot go to the dr. because God will heal you.
I do not think God is in the dark and we go about doing things like taking people to court without his knowledge of the situation , i say we have a spirit and Jesus will guide us in what we do as we remain mindful of the scriptures. if our course if right it will turn out ok, if not then we may have to learn some more scripture !
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Ham
Well.. to me twi seems to have proven that it is indeed NOT a christian organization. they are not a church as such.. maybe on the coroporation and tax papers to maintain a tax free status.
P*ul A**en did it right.. he confronted the then trustees. Their reaction? Well.. let's just mark and avoid him.. label him possessed.. worked before ya know.
I think he found there was none among them wise enough to sit as some kind of biblical "judge" of sorts. No arbitrator, or even the possibility of any kind of arbitration, outside of legal action.
At least he got loy defrocked.
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year2027
God first
Beloved TrustAndObey
God loves us my dear friend
I would think if the person only hurt one person forgive them and move on but if the person has a history of hurting people take him or her to court
does not the word say bring the person in front of three or more witnesses if needed
other wise try personal to stop the evil act then try to get others to go with you about what the person did
but if all that does not work take the person to court
there a time and place for everything even court
just the way I see it
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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excathedra
if there's a crime involved, get your AZZ to court :)
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Watered Garden
I would say that instructions to the first century church were to Christians who wanted to behave in a Christ-like manner, but either got off track or didn't have enough knowledge, wisdom and understanding to do things right.
These very scriptures were twisted by TWI to strongly discourage any kind of legal action against them, no matter what they did. And trust me, they did plenty. Check out some of the threads on child abuse, adultery, etc.
The legal system was the last recourse. Go to the individual who offended you, and if you don't get resolution go to other believers, go to the elders, and if it can't be resolved any other way, go to a court of law.
Mr. Allen and the others went through all that. Thank God he was successful.
Just as TempleLady about justice within the hallowed halls of the fortress of Zion of TWI. And a few others as well.
I don't believe I've ever seen instruction in scripture for leadership to "cover your azz ". But TWI made a doctrine out of it.
WG
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Nottawayfer
SOOO TRUE!!!
Trust and Obey,
Did you have any contact with Paul Allen to hear his side of the story? He confronted the BOT. He got nowhere. He did the next best thing. If TWI had been the godly organization it claims to be, then thing would have been a lot different.
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excathedra
"If TWI had been the godly organization....."
big snort
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rhino
If the BOT had been the least bit adeherant to Biblical standards, there would have been no need for this lawuit, because the abuses never would have happened.
There probably could have been 1000 other lawsuits if people had documented some of the abuses better. Bad people get away with things most of the time, I believe.
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now I see
Number one, I wouldn't have called the big forehead my brother, more like a false prophet or wolf to the flock, and you could throw in all the top hq twi leadership into that pile too.
Secondly, standing by and doing nothing more to stop it just allows evil to reign unchecked like it had for years, from it's heighth in the '70's-'80's clear back to the Van Wert days of the cornfield womanizer's ministry beginings.
The Forehead's arrogance, his delusions regarding his position and his liberties procluded any outside source from mediating any resolution. Justice needed to be hard and swift, but even so, according to an account here on GS, he still hasn't changed his attitude toward his practices, he still thinks he's right...he's not sorry, gee, that doesn't sound too Christian, that sure sounds just like da debil, he's not sorry either.
If you ask the Big Forehead, he'd probably say his actions were Godly and was acting on behalf of God to bless people...still thoroughly deceived, or should I say through-ly.....
Edited by but now I seeLink to comment
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Ham
I really think if things were "handled correctly" in da dumb ministry, there wouldn't be any NEED for lawsuits. Instead, they seemingly tried to bury the "corpses" while they were still ALIVE..
they defamed the victims, labelled them possessed and dangerous. Look what they did to Pa*l and F*rn. You dare to confront, you get the "mark". Even those who died while in the "hallow" walls of zion couldn't rest in peace without some kind of public inquisition, how "unbelief" or "sin" or some such nonsense supposedly killed them.
vic taught them well.
How to hide the victims, how to intimidate into silence, how to ignore legalities and how to make a "proper" cover story to feed the FLOCK. Don't want them running off or anything..
I think a damn big lawsuit was way overdue.
That settlement must still sting. Not as "prevailing" as they would like to think they are.
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now I see
It is too bad, in one sense, that the lawsuit was settled out of court, if they had gone to trial all would have been exposed, as it is, they are allowed to continue to deceive and continue to practice error against the ignorant and naive.
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Ham
Perhaps, but not as openly as before.
I really really doubt that they have anyone on staff as bad as loy.. or who has the unfettered freedom to act as he did. I'll bet they put a FEW safeguards into effect.
Don't want yet ANOTHER real big lawsuit..
and we do have a lot of what is in public record about the evidence.
It wasn't an entire loss..
it got big forehead out of office too, didn't it?
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now I see
Well, for now....
I kinda think the big forehead is just waiting in the wings for the right moment for a comeback, don't think RR is gonna let it happen anytime soon though, there's a plus!
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TrustAndObey
Never talked with the Allen's after they left, course I wasn't really close to either anyways at HQ and hadn't a clue anything was going on.
But I'm very thankful they had the balls to file the lawsuit.. Sure shed some light where it was needed, which was the reason I asked the question, cause I know too many Christians that just sit and take the abuse and if they leave no one knows the wiser what "really" happened because they feel they shouldn't take it to the courts and let the public know, and the organization/instituation doesn't allow the truth to be told.
So thanks for everyone's input..
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