I was wondering about this topic...being born again. I know the Way's stand on it, but I know I have often times even wondered if I am born again. Does this mean i have no faith???? I am very confused. I get so paniced about this often, and it doesn't help I am already on anxiety meds for a long running anxiety disorder (runs in my family...hooray). I am really trying to figure this out. I know what Romans 10:9,10 says, but I have had people tell me that is goes deeper than that....like what? I was also told that you can lose your salvation once you are born again...and of course this floored me, scared the dang out of me. Because for me, God has been the only real contant in my life, and now I feel like I am losing touch with Him, I find myself even wondering if he is out there, or if He still accepts me. THis has turned into a faith crisis for me, and is seriously affecting my life on a daily basis. I may have touched on this in another post, but if anyone can shed some true light here, I would be very much love to have that feeling of safety I once had with God. Is this something I have worked up in my head? Can people fall from grace? I know I am not without sin, and I know I still sin through my human weakness. But I always makes sure to ask God for forgiveness, but does He eventually close His grace off to us if we sin too much, or give into too many temptations. I won't lie, I have givien into temptations I knew were wrong, but I did it anyway...am I lost!!!!!
Hi, Chuck
If you were "lost", it's unlikely you would be seriously contemplating the concerns you expressed in your post.
I was wondering about this topic...being born again. I know the Way's stand on it, but I know I have often times even wondered if I am born again. Does this mean i have no faith???? I am very confused. I get so paniced about this often, and it doesn't help I am already on anxiety meds for a long running anxiety disorder (runs in my family...hooray). I am really trying to figure this out. I know what Romans 10:9,10 says, but I have had people tell me that is goes deeper than that....like what? I was also told that you can lose your salvation once you are born again...and of course this floored me, scared the dang out of me. Because for me, God has been the only real contant in my life, and now I feel like I am losing touch with Him, I find myself even wondering if he is out there, or if He still accepts me. THis has turned into a faith crisis for me, and is seriously affecting my life on a daily basis. I may have touched on this in another post, but if anyone can shed some true light here, I would be very much love to have that feeling of safety I once had with God. Is this something I have worked up in my head? Can people fall from grace? I know I am not without sin, and I know I still sin through my human weakness. But I always makes sure to ask God for forgiveness, but does He eventually close His grace off to us if we sin too much, or give into too many temptations. I won't lie, I have givien into temptations I knew were wrong, but I did it anyway...am I lost!!!!!
Great post, Chuck.
There are a number of competing theologies on salvation and they all seem to have good support, biblically. I'll not address that here. The fact that you are having a "faith crisis" can be a most wonderful thing, as it certainly was for me. My uncertainty and anguish literally drove me to my knees. In the end I got an assurance I never had before and in many ways that was the real start of my life of Christian service. I no longer thought I was saved because of what I believed, but I knew I belonged to God because He is the one who gave me the assurance. That experience gave me separation from my old Way beiefs like no other experience.
My advice is to continue to seek God in prayer. He will answer. Good (if sometimes uncomfortable) journey!
Chuck, your honesty and humbleness is a beautiful thing! I think Waysider made a good call – your concerns wouldn’t be a big deal if you were “lost.” The Evans’ post resonated with me – reminding me of my own crisis of faith and spiritual journey.
The way I look at it – these questions & doubts that hound us come from some place in our mind that was kept in check by the TWI mindset. Just think of all those passages in the Bible that direct us to prove all things, to examine ourselves, to reflect on our ways, to commune with our own heart, etc. Perhaps these questions and doubts have a godly design – like some kind of internal diagnostic system – to keep us honest and humble…and to keep us reaching toward God.
Part of my crisis of faith had to do with realizing much of the stuff I learned from TWI had little to do with bringing me closer to God. It sure was comfortable living in that mindset with the false assurance from their doctrines. But once awakened – there came a sharp sense of emptiness TWI [/b]is similar to the Gnostics who believed salvation was through their secret knowledge.]. Their doctrines not only kept me out of touch with reality – but more importantly out of touch with God!
After leaving TWI, I began thinking of the Bible as a means to an end [connecting with God] rather than an end in itself [becoming a Bible know-it-all]. This, of course, is an ongoing journey. I wish you the best on your journey!
I do not know what to share with you Chuck except that what you have posted struck a chord in me. I really hope that you find the comfort you need, and that it is comfort and assurance that settles your heart before the Lord.
I am very glad that you're sharing your doubts and I hope that the Lord answers them for you.
I was wondering about this topic...being born again. I know the Way's stand on it, but I know I have often times even wondered if I am born again. Does this mean i have no faith???? I am very confused. I get so paniced about this often, and it doesn't help I am already on anxiety meds for a long running anxiety disorder (runs in my family...hooray). I am really trying to figure this out. I know what Romans 10:9,10 says, but I have had people tell me that is goes deeper than that....like what? I was also told that you can lose your salvation once you are born again...and of course this floored me, scared the dang out of me. Because for me, God has been the only real contant in my life, and now I feel like I am losing touch with Him, I find myself even wondering if he is out there, or if He still accepts me. THis has turned into a faith crisis for me, and is seriously affecting my life on a daily basis. I may have touched on this in another post, but if anyone can shed some true light here, I would be very much love to have that feeling of safety I once had with God. Is this something I have worked up in my head? Can people fall from grace? I know I am not without sin, and I know I still sin through my human weakness. But I always makes sure to ask God for forgiveness, but does He eventually close His grace off to us if we sin too much, or give into too many temptations. I won't lie, I have givien into temptations I knew were wrong, but I did it anyway...am I lost!!!!!
Hi Chuck,
Since I am not a proponent of a once-saved-always-saved doctrine which is prevalent in Calvinistic theology, I cannot reassure you that you are "in like Flynn." In my personal studies and understanding of how salvation works...and I guess when it comes down in the end, it will not be your doctrine that saves you (Praise God), but it is the power in the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ to atone for your sins before the Holy Father...but I believe there are three salvations to be experienced. Also, there is a Greek construction in Ephesians 2:5 , 8 known as a periphrastic construction, which is a long way of saying something short. So in the Greek, there are but three words, but to bring it over to English requires more words to get the meaning across and so IMO, it should be translated: "You HAVE BEEN saved, and you ARE BEING saved, and you WILL BE saved." The first phrase is where Calvinists, or "grace-ites" saw their salvation, and hence...."once saved always saved." But I personally believe this is where you are saved in the SPIRIT, and yes, I do believe that this portion of salvation is eternal and you cannot lose it ever. The second phrase is where "work-ites" see their salvation, in that "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." I believe this is the salvation of your SOUL, and this is what the Lord Jesus was referring to when He said, "If you gain the whole world and lose your soul...." Lastly, the third phrase, is yet to be experienced and I believe this is the salvation of the BODY, and we will see this at our resurrection when we are given a new body just like the Lord's resurrected body.
Basically, if you have truly confessed the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior and are trusting that HIS BLOOD has atoned for your sins, your SPIRIT is saved, Chuck. For the salvation of your SOUL, develop a VERY PERSONAL relationship with YOUR LORD...i.e. spend lots of time with HIM. Speak out loud to the Lord Jesus, even if people think that you have gone bonkers...SO WHAT! Do you speak with your wife only in your mind or out loud? Let HIM know you are here, but approach with fear and awe, for HE is an AWESOME GOD. You will know you have gained HIS ATTENTION, when HE begins to work with you, some of it may hurt very badly when HE throws you into the fire to see what you are made of, literally, at least in the spiritual realms. But don't fear, HE knows when to pull you out. Just spend lots of time with HIM, for indeed HE will stick closer to you even more so than a brother. Blessings.
Actually, bride, your position is closer to Calvinist soteriology than you might think. The Calvinist view of salvation maintains that if the ongoing sanctification (your "being saved", if you will) is not in evidence, then the initial receiving of Christ was a sham, a religious self-deception. They see soteriology in its totality from foreordination and election, though initial faith and subsequent sanctification to ultimate salvation in the end. Same totality as you declare, somewhat different particulars. I would only take issue with "three salvations". There is only one salvation Christ came to bring to his sheep and it is a complete salvation.
As you said, we are not saved by our doctrine, but by faith in Christ alone.
Actually, bride, your position is closer to Calvinist soteriology than you might think. The Calvinist view of salvation maintains that if the ongoing sanctification (your "being saved", if you will) is not in evidence, then the initial receiving of Christ was a sham, a religious self-deception. They see soteriology in its totality from foreordination and election, though initial faith and subsequent sanctification to ultimate salvation in the end. Same totality as you declare, somewhat different particulars. I would only take issue with "three salvations". There is only one salvation Christ came to bring to his sheep and it is a complete salvation.
As you said, we are not saved by our doctrine, but by faith in Christ alone.
Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to
be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to
declare his righteousness for the remission of
sins that are past, "
Well, I don't wish to turn this into a Calvinist thread, I believe there is one already down here in the dungeon, and that is enough! I do see the salvation of the spirit as being eternal, and the Calvinist doesn't differentiate as much, it would seem it's all lumped in together. They also use the TULIP and I do not believe that God just picks out those that are to be saved randomly and if you really don't want God...too bad, so sad, you're saved whether you like it or not. And then the others....off to hell you go. However, I do believe that there is a sanctification process, which would be located in the soul aspect because it takes time to bring the salvation from the spirit down into your soul (mind area) and thus to live it out in front of others. As you state that if the outward workings of salvation are not evident, then the Calvinist believes the original salvation was a sham....I don't....I very much believe that you can be born again....don't do a ding dang thing for the LORD....and your spirit at least will be saved, but you will lose your soul etc. This is what I believe the Scriptures speak about with the different crowns, i.e. life, righteousness etc. Those that get only the crown of life, I would liken to those whose spirits only are saved. You're there but you won't have any rewards or status or rulership over ten cities etc. I list it as three salvations to show the breakdown, because as I personally believe, you have a choice to not save your soul and basically ignore the Lord all of your natural life....and then Matthew 7...."I never KNEW you...depart from me." One might liken it to concentric circles around the Throne, the more you lived for the Lord and KNEW HIM, the closer you will be to HIS THRONE.
Only imagine...if salvation is by God's grace and not by works. Why would ever do anything for God? What the heck you already have eternal life right?
Then the more you realize what we have been delivered from and the immense price that was paid for your salvation you become ever more thankful.
You try to wrap your mind around God's love and mercy. You find yourself doing good works less from fear and guilt and more out of shear gratitude.
You begin to understand how it is possible to love your neighbor as yourself.
Then you start to really understand verses that you have read before like.....perfect love cast out fear....for by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God.
Strangely enough you begin to see fruits such as love, joy, peace, meekness etc.
When an injustice has been done to you, you will think of how it compares to the injustices done to Jesus Christ and why would anyone put themselves through such agony. If that's not love there is no such thing.
Even knowing that there are rewards for good works it becomes more out of thankfulness and for Christ sake.
Talk about peace, Talk about joy, Now you can almost bring yourself to stand before God without and guilt or condemnation knowing that for Christ sake you have life eternal.
Chuck, your honesty and humbleness is a beautiful thing! I think Waysider made a good call – your concerns wouldn’t be a big deal if you were “lost.” The Evans’ post resonated with me – reminding me of my own crisis of faith and spiritual journey.
The way I look at it – these questions & doubts that hound us come from some place in our mind that was kept in check by the TWI mindset. Just think of all those passages in the Bible that direct us to prove all things, to examine ourselves, to reflect on our ways, to commune with our own heart, etc. Perhaps these questions and doubts have a godly design – like some kind of internal diagnostic system – to keep us honest and humble…and to keep us reaching toward God.
Part of my crisis of faith had to do with realizing much of the stuff I learned from TWI had little to do with bringing me closer to God. It sure was comfortable living in that mindset with the false assurance from their doctrines. But once awakened – there came a sharp sense of emptiness TWI [/b]is similar to the Gnostics who believed salvation was through their secret knowledge.]. Their doctrines not only kept me out of touch with reality – but more importantly out of touch with God!
twi was NEVER intended to bring you closer to GOD and there is no way that would be possible either thats like saying i can bring a man and woman closer together so they can be married,that is something you have to do.all twi does along with the other groups that teach the bible is teach you how to study the bible so you can build your relationship with GOD.it is up to you and me to study the bible to see what GOD is all about and thereby get to know HIM. no effort, no relationship,same goes for a marriage.
After leaving TWI, I began thinking of the Bible as a means to an end [connecting with God] rather than an end in itself [becoming a Bible know-it-all]. This, of course, is an ongoing journey. I wish you the best on your journey!
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waysider
Hi, Chuck
If you were "lost", it's unlikely you would be seriously contemplating the concerns you expressed in your post.
IMHO
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TheEvan
Great post, Chuck.
There are a number of competing theologies on salvation and they all seem to have good support, biblically. I'll not address that here. The fact that you are having a "faith crisis" can be a most wonderful thing, as it certainly was for me. My uncertainty and anguish literally drove me to my knees. In the end I got an assurance I never had before and in many ways that was the real start of my life of Christian service. I no longer thought I was saved because of what I believed, but I knew I belonged to God because He is the one who gave me the assurance. That experience gave me separation from my old Way beiefs like no other experience.
My advice is to continue to seek God in prayer. He will answer. Good (if sometimes uncomfortable) journey!
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T-Bone
Chuck, your honesty and humbleness is a beautiful thing! I think Waysider made a good call – your concerns wouldn’t be a big deal if you were “lost.” The Evans’ post resonated with me – reminding me of my own crisis of faith and spiritual journey.
The way I look at it – these questions & doubts that hound us come from some place in our mind that was kept in check by the TWI mindset. Just think of all those passages in the Bible that direct us to prove all things, to examine ourselves, to reflect on our ways, to commune with our own heart, etc. Perhaps these questions and doubts have a godly design – like some kind of internal diagnostic system – to keep us honest and humble…and to keep us reaching toward God.
Part of my crisis of faith had to do with realizing much of the stuff I learned from TWI had little to do with bringing me closer to God. It sure was comfortable living in that mindset with the false assurance from their doctrines. But once awakened – there came a sharp sense of emptiness TWI [/b]is similar to the Gnostics who believed salvation was through their secret knowledge.]. Their doctrines not only kept me out of touch with reality – but more importantly out of touch with God!
After leaving TWI, I began thinking of the Bible as a means to an end [connecting with God] rather than an end in itself [becoming a Bible know-it-all]. This, of course, is an ongoing journey. I wish you the best on your journey!
Love & peace, T-Bone
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sirguessalot
reminds me of a story...
a boy wants to leave his village and experience the kingdom of the sun
and so he asks his grandmother how to get there
but she says she doesn't know
but she tells him that the fox knows
and gives him 7 pairs of moccasins
so the boy wears out 1 pair of moccasins finding the fox
and then asks the fox, "how do i get to the kingdom of the sun?"
the fox says "i dont know, but the stag does"
and so the boy wears out another pair of moccasins finding the stag
who says..."i dont know...but the bear knows"
and so on and so forth, from guide to guide,
he ages, wearing out moccasins
horizon after horizon
...
seems to me...
we make our first waves of leaps of faith
before even knowing what a leap of faith is
...UNconsciously INcompetent
we cant help but notice the next waves
because they are leap-or-suffer situations
...consciously INcompetent
we see the next waves coming
so we learn to become better leapers
...consciously competent
we then ride the waves as a ship
where the capacity to leap from wave to wave
is as vital as the quality of our vessel of faith
...UNconsciously competent
...
great post indeed, Chuck
it doesnt help that we were born into an age dripping with hi-anxiety...and no simple answers
but guys our age have a few other strikes against us
and yeah..we are quite radically lost
which may be hard to admit, or describe
but it doesnt seem hard to notice
i suggest playing at learning to take some theological risks
and look into spiritual practices that allow you to embody your relationship with God and the eternal
(tai chi, for example..and things that involve the heart and breath, as well as the mind)
actual spiritual practices that help you notice God NOW
...in spite of conditions
ultimately...life is transforming against our will
we are being pushed and pulled through...choicelessly
this is the grace
in which we are already
always
falling
thru
and
into
having
been
found
here
this, of course, is some kind of leap
over a netless net
and all pots eventually crack
only to be reborn
being saved from deaths
is not quite the master plan
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cman
In other words,
think about what you have seen
what you are seeing
and what you haven't seen.
Not in a worrisome way.
But in an adventurous way.
Since the things we seek are unseen, this is what we look for.
To take the time to consider, reflect, meditate, all prayer.
Prayers to see what has been, is, and will be in us. Reality.
It's all rolled up with layers to sort through.
Uncovering one reveals another and exposes the one removed as well.
So a real sense and selfless-ready to get naked with God/yourself thing is needed.
Wanting to know and see outweighing the anxiety and fears and hesitant feelings.
What you need will be there, whatever it is.
You will be surprised i think.
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JeffSjo
I do not know what to share with you Chuck except that what you have posted struck a chord in me. I really hope that you find the comfort you need, and that it is comfort and assurance that settles your heart before the Lord.
I am very glad that you're sharing your doubts and I hope that the Lord answers them for you.
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cman
Although I don't think it's a finding of God.
More of a mutual meeting and experience to learn.
A process which is already working.
At some points there will be many things fast.
And others, patience carries a lot of weight.
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brideofjc
Hi Chuck,
Since I am not a proponent of a once-saved-always-saved doctrine which is prevalent in Calvinistic theology, I cannot reassure you that you are "in like Flynn." In my personal studies and understanding of how salvation works...and I guess when it comes down in the end, it will not be your doctrine that saves you (Praise God), but it is the power in the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ to atone for your sins before the Holy Father...but I believe there are three salvations to be experienced. Also, there is a Greek construction in Ephesians 2:5 , 8 known as a periphrastic construction, which is a long way of saying something short. So in the Greek, there are but three words, but to bring it over to English requires more words to get the meaning across and so IMO, it should be translated: "You HAVE BEEN saved, and you ARE BEING saved, and you WILL BE saved." The first phrase is where Calvinists, or "grace-ites" saw their salvation, and hence...."once saved always saved." But I personally believe this is where you are saved in the SPIRIT, and yes, I do believe that this portion of salvation is eternal and you cannot lose it ever. The second phrase is where "work-ites" see their salvation, in that "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." I believe this is the salvation of your SOUL, and this is what the Lord Jesus was referring to when He said, "If you gain the whole world and lose your soul...." Lastly, the third phrase, is yet to be experienced and I believe this is the salvation of the BODY, and we will see this at our resurrection when we are given a new body just like the Lord's resurrected body.
Basically, if you have truly confessed the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior and are trusting that HIS BLOOD has atoned for your sins, your SPIRIT is saved, Chuck. For the salvation of your SOUL, develop a VERY PERSONAL relationship with YOUR LORD...i.e. spend lots of time with HIM. Speak out loud to the Lord Jesus, even if people think that you have gone bonkers...SO WHAT! Do you speak with your wife only in your mind or out loud? Let HIM know you are here, but approach with fear and awe, for HE is an AWESOME GOD. You will know you have gained HIS ATTENTION, when HE begins to work with you, some of it may hurt very badly when HE throws you into the fire to see what you are made of, literally, at least in the spiritual realms. But don't fear, HE knows when to pull you out.
Just spend lots of time with HIM, for indeed HE will stick closer to you even more so than a brother. Blessings.
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TheEvan
Actually, bride, your position is closer to Calvinist soteriology than you might think. The Calvinist view of salvation maintains that if the ongoing sanctification (your "being saved", if you will) is not in evidence, then the initial receiving of Christ was a sham, a religious self-deception. They see soteriology in its totality from foreordination and election, though initial faith and subsequent sanctification to ultimate salvation in the end. Same totality as you declare, somewhat different particulars. I would only take issue with "three salvations". There is only one salvation Christ came to bring to his sheep and it is a complete salvation.
As you said, we are not saved by our doctrine, but by faith in Christ alone.
Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to
be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to
declare his righteousness for the remission of
sins that are past, "
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brideofjc
Well, I don't wish to turn this into a Calvinist thread, I believe there is one already down here in the dungeon, and that is enough! I do see the salvation of the spirit as being eternal, and the Calvinist doesn't differentiate as much, it would seem it's all lumped in together. They also use the TULIP and I do not believe that God just picks out those that are to be saved randomly and if you really don't want God...too bad, so sad, you're saved whether you like it or not. And then the others....off to hell you go. However, I do believe that there is a sanctification process, which would be located in the soul aspect because it takes time to bring the salvation from the spirit down into your soul (mind area) and thus to live it out in front of others. As you state that if the outward workings of salvation are not evident, then the Calvinist believes the original salvation was a sham....I don't....I very much believe that you can be born again....don't do a ding dang thing for the LORD....and your spirit at least will be saved, but you will lose your soul etc. This is what I believe the Scriptures speak about with the different crowns, i.e. life, righteousness etc. Those that get only the crown of life, I would liken to those whose spirits only are saved. You're there but you won't have any rewards or status or rulership over ten cities etc. I list it as three salvations to show the breakdown, because as I personally believe, you have a choice to not save your soul and basically ignore the Lord all of your natural life....and then Matthew 7...."I never KNEW you...depart from me." One might liken it to concentric circles around the Throne, the more you lived for the Lord and KNEW HIM, the closer you will be to HIS THRONE.
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cman
lol....
the sword never stops,
it will laugh in the face of anyone's will
along with us
and our tears will wipe away all
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jeast
Only imagine...if salvation is by God's grace and not by works. Why would ever do anything for God? What the heck you already have eternal life right?
Then the more you realize what we have been delivered from and the immense price that was paid for your salvation you become ever more thankful.
You try to wrap your mind around God's love and mercy. You find yourself doing good works less from fear and guilt and more out of shear gratitude.
You begin to understand how it is possible to love your neighbor as yourself.
Then you start to really understand verses that you have read before like.....perfect love cast out fear....for by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God.
Strangely enough you begin to see fruits such as love, joy, peace, meekness etc.
When an injustice has been done to you, you will think of how it compares to the injustices done to Jesus Christ and why would anyone put themselves through such agony. If that's not love there is no such thing.
Even knowing that there are rewards for good works it becomes more out of thankfulness and for Christ sake.
Talk about peace, Talk about joy, Now you can almost bring yourself to stand before God without and guilt or condemnation knowing that for Christ sake you have life eternal.
Only imagine.
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cman
Being born of the spirit is the same as any birth.
There is a conception and time before the actual birth.
And also growth from there.
Timing is the question I suppose.
Though time is irrelevant in the bigger picture.
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shiftthis
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