The support that the trustees gave lcm after knowing that he was a sexual predator sickened me. They allowed him to continue to be president for a whole year after knowing about it. They didn't take actions until they were at risk for being sued. This showed me they cared more about money than people. They haven't changed; they are still the same today. Otherwise they would come out on public forum to apologize to all people hurt by their previous president's actions. They would acknowledge he was an obsessed nazi from hell. Their silence proves their guilt.
Um, NotAWayferNoMore, one slight correction, please.
You said,
quote: They allowed him to continue to be president for a whole year after knowing about it.
Actually, Rozilla Rivenfart has known about it since at least 1995 - there is a court document that says so. So I would imagine (and it has been attested to) that the other members of the BOT knew about it back then as well.
But when she denies the fact that she admitted knowing what happened previously (in which I heard her deny this while I was at HQ), the rest of the wayfers can actually see that she knew for at least a year and supported lcm as president. There's no denying that, so she can't lie her fool head off about that one. We saw it happen.
-I started really considering things I learned in college and other read/studied sources.
-I had a number of "secular" friends to discuss things with (while trying to witness)(unequally yoking myself, you know).
-The control and constant invasion of my private life was getting out of control.
-But mostly it took seriously evaluating over several years the "Word" I had been taught, not getting answers and realizing most of it was either wrong or not worth sticking around for.
Oh and swing dancing, (its from the devil, you know). :D-->
For me it was the lack of control I had over my time and my life. At the end of a week, I was so tired of jumping through hoops, and I really longed to sleep in on a Saturday....and I couldn't. In order to get things done for my own family and my own home...there was no sleeping in.
Finally, there was no wiggle room in the week or the month...and I was so tired. The only way to rest was to stop everything...because I could no longer pick and choose which activities I wanted to do....or could do. Since it became all or none...I had no choice but to say none.
It was almost 4 months later that I was confronted with "abuse" of my family! I can't believe I was so dumb as to not have seen it or believed it before. (buy I was)
The desperate desire to leave twi was built over the course of ten years. Leadership setting us up as the bad guys with the local people, then hanging us out to dry. The holier-than-thou (apology, what apology?) attitude of the leadership. The scheduled-to-death boredom of the fellowships. The fact that people who wouldn't even accept an invitation to dinner in my house were telling us how to spend our money and when we could go on vacation...
And then came the Allen lawsuit. And they treated us with total contempt by not telling us anything, by getting angry when we went elsewhere for the information, and by denying the obvious truth that this had been going on for a long, long time. And then, when they gave lcm a top assignment, I just about flipped!!
I had planned on biting my tongue and seeing if I couldn't persuade others to see the truth, but I just couldn't take it any more and got myself in trouble with the leadership, ending up a proud member of the M&A club.
Johnny Townsend was fired from the Board of Trustees.
Just about the whole dang leadership of New York State was dismissed.
The 1989 Rock of Ages was spirtually bankrupt.
"God chose Doctor Wierwille and Doctor Wierwille chose Craig Martindale by revelation. Do you think God is stupid?" (note to John E. Rump: God chose King Saul directly).
And my all time favorite Donna M quote: "I want to thank God for making Craig Martindale the spiritual head of this ministry."
I remember it like it just happened... it was a catharsis for me - an awakening - the scales were finally removed.
I have told this story before.
I took the Advanced Class in 1995 in Rome City. During one of the sessions, Howard Allen came to share his "heart" about what TWI had done for him. He shared the usual story about being almost dead, getting prayed for, etc. Shared about Uncle Harry and yada yada yada.
Then he started talking about the administration at that time. He started saying how wonderful it was now that LCM was president. How he'd cleaned house. How he'd gotten rid of the weakness in TWI. Then he said:
"And I'm proud to say that today The Way is no longer and open door ministry!"
The crowd went wild! I was stunned.
If I had a vehicle there, I would have left that night.
When I got home, I vowed that I would get out. I told my husband I would no longer go to any overnight, out-of-town classes. I would only attend fellowships, branch meetings and the Limb Meeting if it wasn't too inconvenient.
I told him that when he was ready to leave, I would be right behind him.
It took 5 more years, but I am glad I waited for my spouse to feel the same way I did.
Hope R. color>size>face>
I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints - the sinners are much more fun... Billy Joel size>
I was in the Corps and saw the legalism first hand.
And then after the Corps working on staff I really saw the light.
When a leader talks to you using such language that wouldn't even be allowed in a brothel.......then it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out it was time to go.
I sure am glad I decided to get a life...
Littlehawk.....Ya friendly tour guide to tha bourbin regions of tha bluegrass!!!
I had been wanting to leave for a while, but never did because of my family. The reasons I left are very similar to Lindy's reasons, minus the dancing part.
Anyway, what gave me a green light to get out was basically that my parents stopped being such waybots (for a time, at least) and were on the verge of leaving themselves. When I figured they wouldn't cut contact with me for leaving TWI, I left.
I left because I didn't trust the ministry leadership with my daughter. I was in the apprentice corps, and I was very unsettled about going in residence with my child. I didn't want to put myself and her in a position where someone else besides me had control over her life. What lead to my lack of trust? Probably a lack of love. Things would happen that made me question how much the leadership really loved the people. For example, I had to drive for about 45 minutes, sometimes in rush hour traffic, to get to the twig coordinator's meeting once a week. Sometimes I didn't gauge how long the trip would take just right. Once I arrived at the Branch Coordinator's house 15 or 20 minutes early, with my 4 year old in tow. They reproved me for being early and told me to find something else to do until the meeting started. They couldn't have invited me in and offered me coffee until the d*mn thing started could they?
Well, the original time I was in The Way 1, I just drifted off around 1981. Everyone was moving about and things just sort of fell apart in this area. Lucky me.
With the offshoot I later went back to, the question is more like "what the hell took me so long to leave?" For about 7 years I kept going and I don't know why. Most people would barely say boo to me. I would leave there feeling dead. Finally I just couldn't bring myself to go anymore. I just couldn't stand the thought of going and listening to one more teaching. Ugh.
After being away for a few weeks, the fog slowly began to lift.
Now I wouldn't go back if they provided a limo service and free beer during fellowship.
...It's hard to be humble when you own a Rottweiler...
What finally did it for me (after a dozen years of complete dedication, culminating in two years of Recognized Family Corps VI training):
1.) Being told secondhand that we were suddenly being "assigned" to move across the country, which would hinder my parents' contact with their first grandchild. I was not allowed to speak with VPW to discuss this "assignment" (Recognized weren't supposed to be assigned anywhere!)
2.) The re-assignment later that year of the LC that we were moved to be with in the first place! Maybe our assignment wasn't revelation after all...
3.) Being asked by a leader to get "evaluated" and fill out a "Redeem the Time" sheet, even though that person had never met me. I politely but firmly declined, said I was Recognized and not subject to evaluation. Leader said, "VPW had never wanted a Recognized program"
4.) Being told by a BC that I should leave my children with an abusive alcoholic and drive out of state because VPW had called an emergency meeting. BC cited Ezra 10, when the people came when the man of God called, even in the rain. Then I read the record -- when the meeting went on a long time, the people said, "Hey, it's raining! and this is gonna take a long time. Settle it with our rulers, and let us know." I very firmly declined to go
5.) Wrote a thoughtful reply to VPW when he asked in a form letter to those Corps that weren't at Corps Week, "Where have I failed you?" Received a one-sentence answer scrawled at the top of my letter that I was "bitter"
Even though TWI was more than happy to have me jump through hoops for them, all talk about the "Corps household" and "love of the saints" was nil when I had need. And that included VPW.
That was a long time ago in a land far away from where I am now. The beginning of the end for me was in 1980, and I was out by '84. So lousy people skills weren't just the realm of TWI-II!
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Nottawayfer
The support that the trustees gave lcm after knowing that he was a sexual predator sickened me. They allowed him to continue to be president for a whole year after knowing about it. They didn't take actions until they were at risk for being sued. This showed me they cared more about money than people. They haven't changed; they are still the same today. Otherwise they would come out on public forum to apologize to all people hurt by their previous president's actions. They would acknowledge he was an obsessed nazi from hell. Their silence proves their guilt.
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Steve!
Um, NotAWayferNoMore, one slight correction, please.
You said,
Actually, Rozilla Rivenfart has known about it since at least 1995 - there is a court document that says so. So I would imagine (and it has been attested to) that the other members of the BOT knew about it back then as well.
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Nottawayfer
Steve!
Thanks for the correction.
But when she denies the fact that she admitted knowing what happened previously (in which I heard her deny this while I was at HQ), the rest of the wayfers can actually see that she knew for at least a year and supported lcm as president. There's no denying that, so she can't lie her fool head off about that one. We saw it happen.
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lindyhopper
It was a lot of things.
-I started really considering things I learned in college and other read/studied sources.
-I had a number of "secular" friends to discuss things with (while trying to witness)(unequally yoking myself, you know).
-The control and constant invasion of my private life was getting out of control.
-But mostly it took seriously evaluating over several years the "Word" I had been taught, not getting answers and realizing most of it was either wrong or not worth sticking around for.
Oh and swing dancing, (its from the devil, you know).
:D-->
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krys
For me it was the lack of control I had over my time and my life. At the end of a week, I was so tired of jumping through hoops, and I really longed to sleep in on a Saturday....and I couldn't. In order to get things done for my own family and my own home...there was no sleeping in.
Finally, there was no wiggle room in the week or the month...and I was so tired. The only way to rest was to stop everything...because I could no longer pick and choose which activities I wanted to do....or could do. Since it became all or none...I had no choice but to say none.
It was almost 4 months later that I was confronted with "abuse" of my family! I can't believe I was so dumb as to not have seen it or believed it before. (buy I was)
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TheHighWay
The desperate desire to leave twi was built over the course of ten years. Leadership setting us up as the bad guys with the local people, then hanging us out to dry. The holier-than-thou (apology, what apology?) attitude of the leadership. The scheduled-to-death boredom of the fellowships. The fact that people who wouldn't even accept an invitation to dinner in my house were telling us how to spend our money and when we could go on vacation...
And then came the Allen lawsuit. And they treated us with total contempt by not telling us anything, by getting angry when we went elsewhere for the information, and by denying the obvious truth that this had been going on for a long, long time. And then, when they gave lcm a top assignment, I just about flipped!!
I had planned on biting my tongue and seeing if I couldn't persuade others to see the truth, but I just couldn't take it any more and got myself in trouble with the leadership, ending up a proud member of the M&A club.
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mj412
one phone call
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Raf
Johnny Townsend was fired from the Board of Trustees.
Just about the whole dang leadership of New York State was dismissed.
The 1989 Rock of Ages was spirtually bankrupt.
"God chose Doctor Wierwille and Doctor Wierwille chose Craig Martindale by revelation. Do you think God is stupid?" (note to John E. Rump: God chose King Saul directly).
And my all time favorite Donna M quote: "I want to thank God for making Craig Martindale the spiritual head of this ministry."
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Outin88!
Okay MJ412,
You've got me curious. What was the phone call about, if you don't mind sharing?
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Outin88!
Rafael said;
"And my all time favorite Donna M quote: 'I want to thank God for making Craig Martindale the spiritual head of this ministry'"
That statement should have drawn a hugh red flag to anyone in TWI, as it did for Rafael, Jesus is the spiritual head of all Christians!!!
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Goey
I left in 82.
Probaly the main reason for me was the lack of humility, arrogance and haughtiness, of many of the Way Corps and leadership.
Also, the legalism was setting in about that time and Way Corps began meddling more and more in folks personal affairs.
Add to that, the screaming and yelling and foul language comming out of leaders mouths.
Then there was this kinky headed pompous a$$ dressed in leotards trapsing around on a stage like a super athlete...
I had enough.
Oh, I forgot to mention, a leader(Reverend) tried to screw my fiance/girlfriend. That kinda ticked me off.
Goey
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mj412
I was told to not attend fellowship.
i cried and asked why he said I was "Marked".
thats all
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Outin88!
Mj412,
I'm so sorry, though it did free you from the bondage of TWI, so I'm glad for that.
:)-->
And now your here basking in your freedom from that cult, hanging with us at the Cafe.
Can I buy you a soda, then we can toast to that freedom!!!
God bless ya.
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mj412
un sure but I think i should tell ya.
ten years later I went back to twi
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mj412
not to metion the offshoot mess.
Are u sure?
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Outin88!
Mj412,
Of course, your outta da cult of TWI, thats cause for celebration in my book, so yeah I'd toast to that and I'll buy the soda.
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mj412
I do not think I ever left I just do not do fellowships anymore
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Hope R.
I remember it like it just happened... it was a catharsis for me - an awakening - the scales were finally removed.
I have told this story before.
I took the Advanced Class in 1995 in Rome City. During one of the sessions, Howard Allen came to share his "heart" about what TWI had done for him. He shared the usual story about being almost dead, getting prayed for, etc. Shared about Uncle Harry and yada yada yada.
Then he started talking about the administration at that time. He started saying how wonderful it was now that LCM was president. How he'd cleaned house. How he'd gotten rid of the weakness in TWI. Then he said:
"And I'm proud to say that today The Way is no longer and open door ministry!"
The crowd went wild! I was stunned.
If I had a vehicle there, I would have left that night.
When I got home, I vowed that I would get out. I told my husband I would no longer go to any overnight, out-of-town classes. I would only attend fellowships, branch meetings and the Limb Meeting if it wasn't too inconvenient.
I told him that when he was ready to leave, I would be right behind him.
It took 5 more years, but I am glad I waited for my spouse to feel the same way I did.
Hope R. color>size>face>
I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints - the sinners are much more fun... Billy Joel size>
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Littlehawk
Goey...amen
I was in the Corps and saw the legalism first hand.
And then after the Corps working on staff I really saw the light.
When a leader talks to you using such language that wouldn't even be allowed in a brothel.......then it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out it was time to go.
I sure am glad I decided to get a life...
Littlehawk.....Ya friendly tour guide to tha bourbin regions of tha bluegrass!!!
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Mister P-Mosh
I had been wanting to leave for a while, but never did because of my family. The reasons I left are very similar to Lindy's reasons, minus the dancing part.
Anyway, what gave me a green light to get out was basically that my parents stopped being such waybots (for a time, at least) and were on the verge of leaving themselves. When I figured they wouldn't cut contact with me for leaving TWI, I left.
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nolongerlurking
I left because I didn't trust the ministry leadership with my daughter. I was in the apprentice corps, and I was very unsettled about going in residence with my child. I didn't want to put myself and her in a position where someone else besides me had control over her life. What lead to my lack of trust? Probably a lack of love. Things would happen that made me question how much the leadership really loved the people. For example, I had to drive for about 45 minutes, sometimes in rush hour traffic, to get to the twig coordinator's meeting once a week. Sometimes I didn't gauge how long the trip would take just right. Once I arrived at the Branch Coordinator's house 15 or 20 minutes early, with my 4 year old in tow. They reproved me for being early and told me to find something else to do until the meeting started. They couldn't have invited me in and offered me coffee until the d*mn thing started could they?
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Weout1200
Where to start...
Going on the 'Net(after being told by
leaders#!t NOT to) & finding out there was a second lawsuit besides the Allen lawsuit...
The "ministerial insurance" lie...
The way local leaders#!t acted like such a$$holes post-Allen lawsuit...
Wanting to schedule my life down to the millisecond...
Hearing a Korpse Nazi slander a family that I knew for years that left 'cause of the Allen lawsuit...
Having some non-Korpse b!t(h attempt to wreck my marriage with the FC's blessing...
Hearing LCM say at a rush-rush tape playing that the BOD & his family forgave him (in other words f**k what Joe/Jane Believer feels or thinks)...
When I finally realized the Jesus Christ wasn't in the equation.
ad infinitum...
...on the 8th Day, GOD made the Harley, & it was Good.
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RottieGrrrl
Well, the original time I was in The Way 1, I just drifted off around 1981. Everyone was moving about and things just sort of fell apart in this area. Lucky me.
With the offshoot I later went back to, the question is more like "what the hell took me so long to leave?" For about 7 years I kept going and I don't know why. Most people would barely say boo to me. I would leave there feeling dead. Finally I just couldn't bring myself to go anymore. I just couldn't stand the thought of going and listening to one more teaching. Ugh.
After being away for a few weeks, the fog slowly began to lift.
Now I wouldn't go back if they provided a limo service and free beer during fellowship.
...It's hard to be humble when you own a Rottweiler...
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shazdancer
What finally did it for me (after a dozen years of complete dedication, culminating in two years of Recognized Family Corps VI training):
1.) Being told secondhand that we were suddenly being "assigned" to move across the country, which would hinder my parents' contact with their first grandchild. I was not allowed to speak with VPW to discuss this "assignment" (Recognized weren't supposed to be assigned anywhere!)
2.) The re-assignment later that year of the LC that we were moved to be with in the first place! Maybe our assignment wasn't revelation after all...
3.) Being asked by a leader to get "evaluated" and fill out a "Redeem the Time" sheet, even though that person had never met me. I politely but firmly declined, said I was Recognized and not subject to evaluation. Leader said, "VPW had never wanted a Recognized program"
4.) Being told by a BC that I should leave my children with an abusive alcoholic and drive out of state because VPW had called an emergency meeting. BC cited Ezra 10, when the people came when the man of God called, even in the rain. Then I read the record -- when the meeting went on a long time, the people said, "Hey, it's raining! and this is gonna take a long time. Settle it with our rulers, and let us know." I very firmly declined to go
5.) Wrote a thoughtful reply to VPW when he asked in a form letter to those Corps that weren't at Corps Week, "Where have I failed you?" Received a one-sentence answer scrawled at the top of my letter that I was "bitter"
Even though TWI was more than happy to have me jump through hoops for them, all talk about the "Corps household" and "love of the saints" was nil when I had need. And that included VPW.
That was a long time ago in a land far away from where I am now. The beginning of the end for me was in 1980, and I was out by '84. So lousy people skills weren't just the realm of TWI-II!
Regards,
shaz
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