You're right about the ketosis. During the induction phase of a strict Atkins diet the body usually does go into ketosis. I think its a valid concern too though it doesn't seem to hurt anything in the short run. After induction, though enough carbs are allowed to avoid ketosis.
Rocky... pasta is one of those refined processed carbohydrates. I think its precisely those kinds of carbs that are the problem in the usual cases of obesity. The typical pasta is made from bleached white flour and doesn't contain just a whole lot of nutrition, IMO.
sudo
I disagree. Pasta is one of those PLANT based protein/carb combinations. HIGH in protein, generally. Contains significant macronutrients (protein). In this case, your IMO is not necessarily that of a medical professional trained in that specific discipline. And for those wanting to give proper emphasis to fiber while eating pasta, there are plenty of available whole grain pastas on the market these days, and not just a health food stores.
I also eat whole grain brown rice, Smart Squeeze spread (no reported fat, at all), and remember from a nutrition course that sweet potatoes are reportedly nutritionally superior to white potatoes.
Caveat:
Some products that have the words "whole grain" on the label are not really whole grain. If you check the ingredients information on the package, and see "enriched" flour, the product , of course, is not whole grain, though it might contain some whole grain ingredients.
Another tip: IIRC, a product's ingredients are by law supposed to be listed in descending order of prevalence. For example, if "whole wheat flour" is listed first on the package's ingredient list, whole wheat flour is supposed to make up a greater proportion of the product than any single subsequently listed ingredient (except in the case of a tie, I suppose).
You're right about the ketosis. During the induction phase of a strict Atkins diet the body usually does go into ketosis. I think its a valid concern too though it doesn't seem to hurt anything in the short run. After induction, though enough carbs are allowed to avoid ketosis.
Rocky... pasta is one of those refined processed carbohydrates. I think its precisely those kinds of carbs that are the problem in the usual cases of obesity. The typical pasta is made from bleached white flour and doesn't contain just a whole lot of nutrition, IMO.
sudo
Sudo - you mention the "short run" but how about the long run? Are there any studies or reports or anything? Just wondering... I'm considering this but felt some of the "side effects" might not make it worth it...
You're right about the ketosis. During the induction phase of a strict Atkins diet the body usually does go into ketosis. I think its a valid concern too though it doesn't seem to hurt anything in the short run. After induction, though enough carbs are allowed to avoid ketosis.
Rocky... pasta is one of those refined processed carbohydrates. I think its precisely those kinds of carbs that are the problem in the usual cases of obesity. The typical pasta is made from bleached white flour and doesn't contain just a whole lot of nutrition, IMO.
sudo
Here are nutritional facts from the latest package of pasta I purchased from Trader Joe's (a month or so ago):
Trader Giotto's Multigrain spaghetti with flax (one pound with 8-2 oz servings)
Calories per serving: 190
Calories from fat: 10
Protein: 9 grams/serving (I aim for 100 grams/protein daily)
Dietary fiber: 5 grams/serving (roughly 1/5 of daily requirement of fiber)
This product (in my CONSIDERED opinion) is rich in critical macronutrients.
And Chas, going into ketosis is NOT a wise thing to do for long term weight management.
What works best for the long term is to make changes to your eating plans/habits that you can maintain for a lifetime.
Atkins, for the longterm, IS setting yourself up for problems with digestive organs.
Sudo - you mention the "short run" but how about the long run? Are there any studies or reports or anything? Just wondering... I'm considering this but felt some of the "side effects" might not make it worth it...
And Chas, if it's research you're interested in, a book I have but haven't started reading yet is:
Good Calories, Bad Calories challenging the conventional wisdom on diet, weight control and disease by Gary Taubes
I've had it recommended to me and a registered nutritionist is also reading it, so I hope to have feedback from her soon too.
Taubes METICULOUSLY documents and cites research. You should be able to get this book from your local library.
Rocky, you might rethink some of that when you get around to reading Taubes' book.
That pasta has 29 carbs in one serving after subtracting the fiber - Some low carbers would consider that a whole day's worth of carbs, some a half day's carbs and some would consider it okay as long as it's balanced with lots of protein and/or fat. Way too much for me right now.
Finding a long term lifestyle diet is key, I agree and low carb is easy in that protein and fat are satisfying, take longer to digest and keep you full longer so we don't get hungry as often and it's not the intense hunger that comes from a carb crash. I think people don't realize that "low carb" isn't "no carb". A healthy "low carb" diet contains veggies, fruit and high fiber choices.
Bottom line is finding what works for us personally and keeps us feeling well, imo. I'm insulin resistant along with a few other issues, including diabetes on both sides of my family, so the low carb lifestyle is what appears to be best for me.... a vegan lifestyle is what a very dear friend of mine considers best for her.
Regarding ketosis:
Ketosis, generally, only happens with very low carbohydrate intake and/or with very overweight individuals. It is not dangerous to be in ketosis. Ketoacidosis is what most people confuse ketosis with and ketoacidosis IS dangerous.
Here's what Dr. Michael Eades, author of Protein Power, says about ketosis:
"Ketones... are made when fat breaks down. As you read the words on this page you are producing ketones, but unless you're on this diet or have been fasting, you're probably not in ketosis - the state of having a measurable level of ketones in your blood. Ketones are an intermediate stage of fat breakdown, and not only are they not poison as described by several health writers, but they're used as fuel by most of the body's tissues including the brain. The heart, in fact, prefers ketones to all other fuel.
The body must have sufficient carbohydrate to completely burn for energy all the ketones produced. The diet causes the breakdown of fat, producing an abundance of ketones - especially in the overweight person - but the intervention diets don't provide enough carbohydrate to burn all of them. These excess ketones circulate in the blood and must be gotten rid of i other ways. The body releases them via the urine, the stool and the breath. Since ketones are incompletely burned fat, any that you get rid of without actually using them for energy means you are ditching unwanted fat without having to actually burn it off"
He goes on to say that unless you are a type 1 diabetic ketones and ketosis is not dangerous.
"Dr. Lubert Stryer, professor of Biochemistry at Stanford University and the author of the biochemistry textbook used in most medical schools, says ketones are 'normal fuels of respiration and are quantitatively important sources of energy.' 'Indeed,' Dr. Stryer continues, 'heart muscle and the renal cortex (kidney) use [ketones] in preference to glucose.'
Drs. Donald and Judith Voet, authors of another popular medical biochemistry textbook, say that ketones 'serve as important metabolic fuels for many peripheral tissues, particularly heart and skeletal muscle.'
So if you trust the consensus among medical experts and scientists, you will understand that ketones are a perfectly normal fuel used preferentially by most of the tissues in the body for their energy needs. In fact - except for type 1 diabetics - there is no evidence for the opinion that ketones are dangerous."
***********
I will further second the recommendation for Taubes' book. The link to that an another excellent article written by him are in my first post of this thread. He documents medical study after medical study providing proof that the low carb diet is the healthiest, best diet for MOST people and ESPECIALLY people with diabetes, insulin resistance, metabolic syndrome and many, many other health situations. Insulin is a primary factor in fat production and storage in our bodies - low carb regulates, controls and minimizes insulin production in the body.
The fact that a high carb/low fat diet is what you see so much of is due to political and ego wrangling of not a few people in high places - also heavily documented by Taubes in his book. I can not recommend that book enough - it has really opened my eyes. Dr. Eades, in fact, has a blog entry about Tabues' book, a medical review of it and Taubes' response.
Mr. Taubes wrote a provocative piece for The New York Times Magazine in 2002 called “What If It’s All Been A Big Fat Lie?” The article questioned the conventional wisdom about fat, cholesterol and heart disease. He points out that the latest diet study also challenges the notion that saturated fat is bad for you. The low-carb dieters consumed 12 percent of the calories from saturated fat while the low-fat and Mediterranean dieters consumed 9.6 of their calories from saturated fat. All of the diets appeared to lower L.D.L., or “bad” cholesterol, by about the same amount.
“So here’s the simple question and the point: how can saturated fat be bad for us if a high saturated fat diet lowers L.D.L. at least as well as a diet that has 20 to 25 percent less saturated fat?” Mr. Taubes asks.
There is a doctor in NY, Richard Bernstein MD who is a diabetic and diabetic specialist. He has an amazing story, website and forum. I was prediabetic doing all the right things and getting bad results---weight gain, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, thryoid troubles. When I switched, all my numbers came back to normal [blood pressure dropped to normal in 7 days!], and I effortlessly dropped the 50 lbs I'd gained on a vegetarian lifestyle.
Dr Bernstein's his health/food plan is this...your main source of calories is from low carb veggies, then proteins and fats. For diabetics, fruits are consumed very minimally, like dessert only at holiday times.
The only way you can compromise your kidneys is if you eat TOO MUCH protein. Those who understand the chemistry of weight management can actually calculate your body's protein requirements per day, and then the individual takes that total and divides it up between 5-6 small meals all day. 60 grams of protein is a minimum requirement for healthy cell maintenance and repair. I lost weight with 95 grams/protein per day.
Dr Bernstein advises against all flour products, which obivously includes all pastas. He's not big on rice either...he distinguishes between fast acting and slow acting carbs. It is the fast acting ones that quickly spike blood sugar and therefore insulin. Insulin is the fat storing hormone. Low insulin stimulation allows you to burn the food you take in as well as fat that is stored for energy.
Long ago, a doctor told me that everyone should be following a diabetic food plan---and the medical community would be drastically reduced!
That's some mighty fortified pasta you've got there. Here's what I get for pasta's nutritional value from going to "pasta" on Wikipedia:
Pasta, dry, unenriched
Nutritional value per 100 g (3.5 oz)
Energy 370 kcal 1550 kJ
Carbohydrates 75 g
- Starch 62 g
- Sugars 2 g
- Dietary fibre 3 g
Fat 1.5 g
Protein 13 g
Water 10 g
Folate (Vit. B9) 18 μg 5%
Percentages are relative to US
recommendations for adults.
Source: USDA Nutrient database
This has been a good thread so far I think. The whole point for my starting it was that the latest two year study backs up all the other studies showing the low carb diet as the best at losing weight AND showing a better lipid profile to boot. Yet.. its against our natures to accept it. Click on Belle's Taubes on the study And at the end (its a short article) read the first comment. I think you'll find it interesting. And BTW.. you're right about my credentials. I'm not trying to pass myself off as a nutritional expert. I'm just a dentist. But like Belle and Rejoice, I've done extensive study on the subject.
Oh, and your statement: "Atkins, for the longterm, IS setting yourself up for problems with digestive organs." I'm thinking you're saying that because it seems to you that must be what would happen, no? I haven't seen anything about the Atkins diet in any study that wasn't pretty good. If you think about it, the Eskimo diet is all meat. There's not much plant life that grows in the snow. In fact, it was the fact that the Inuit don't get heart disease that baffled everybody and started the search for why that was.
But I try not to be too dogmatic about the low carb diet because there are people like you who've also lost weight doing other diets. Some folks just can't stand eating low carb and Weight Watchers works for them. But the evidence is mounting with each study that it is INDEED carbs that both make people fat and raise their cholesterol... not fat. But lots of people just won't accept it.
I'm not interested in a p1$$ing match with you sudo.
Bottom line is that if you don't want to eat pasta, don't eat it.
I find nothing inappropriate with including pasta in my regular eating plans.
This is certainly NOT a game of who's right or wrong.
It's a matter for each individual to find what works for him or her.
For the long run, the very best idea is to determine what you can eat that will satisfy your hungers and cravings while taking in the least amount of calories -- in a way that you can maintain for the rest of your life.
That means the whole concept of going on "a diet" is faulty, IMO.
And yes, I think Taubes's book is a gold mine of insight waiting to be had...
Hey...I LOVE pasta, but I'm like Sudo...my body responds to it rapidly.
I actually went to talk with a bariatric physician [obesity specialist] because I was so frustrated that EVERY diet out there didn't work. Heck...i GAINED weight on Weight Watchers first week quick weight loss.
He said something remarkable; just as our fingerprints are unique, our individual body chemistry is unique. That's why one person will do well on a diet and another will not.
The trick is for each of us, it is trial and error. I can only take in 60 grams of carbs [starches or fruits] per day to maintain weight. Any more and I gain it. Yet, my son-in-law LIVES on carbs and is struggling to keep his weight UP!!
Hey...I LOVE pasta, but I'm like Sudo...my body responds to it rapidly.
I actually went to talk with a bariatric physician [obesity specialist] because I was so frustrated that EVERY diet out there didn't work. Heck...i GAINED weight on Weight Watchers first week quick weight loss.
He said something remarkable; just as our fingerprints are unique, our individual body chemistry is unique. That's why one person will do well on a diet and another will not.
The trick is for each of us, it is trial and error. I can only take in 60 grams of carbs [starches or fruits] per day to maintain weight. Any more and I gain it. Yet, my son-in-law LIVES on carbs and is struggling to keep his weight UP!!
Yes, metabolism. Thanks for reminding me.
Intake is only one side of the equation.
Expenditure of calories is the other side of that equation.
Exercise and other lifestyle issues have a key role in that expenditure.
For me, I didn't really start losing weight until I started a regular exercise regimen that included BOTH cardio (aerobic) exercise AND resistance/muscle development/weightlifting. And when one starts regular weightlifting, he generally GAINS weight at first. However, the added MUSCLE BURNS CALORIES. Whereas, FAT only STORES calories.
You guys mentioned exercise and it hasn't come up yet about the Atkins diet but he said you HAD to exercise. It was non-negotiable. I had the same experience you did when I started limiting my carbs. I was losing weight but not that much. I started doing brisk "power walking" every morning and the pounds started pouring off . I was eating like a pig because on a low carb diet calories aren't counted. Every week I'd get on the scales and I had lost another 5lbs. It was like magic.
I've heard "experts" say that the reason exercise (even just walking) works so well is that otherwise the body thinks its going into starvation mode and the metabolism changes to keep the weight on for use when there is no food. But I say "experts" for a reason. You can't trust what the "experts" say. They don't really KNOW as the study I posted in my firsts post points out. That's one of the reasons I am SUCH a cynic on almost everything and dogmatic on next to nothing.
WAY TO GO, PAW!!! You have my utmost respect as I know that is not the easiest regimen to follow. (where's that bowing down avatar?)
Rocky, you're absolutely right - we do have to figure out what works for us, personally. I tried that d@mned cabbage soup diet and GAINED weight! Two weeks in a row!! Too much stuff that spikes blood sugar, I guess. I couldn't figure it out at the time but it was the turning point for me to go to a doctor about my inability to lose weight no matter what.
Jimmy Moore has an awesome low carb blog and interviews lots of the prominent low carb doctors, researchers and authors. He also has started a list of low carb doctors so we can find a doctor who recognizes the benefits of low carb and uses it first instead of drugs. Excellent info for us low carb information junkies!
Sudo, if you haven't heard of this Canadian documentary, then you'll find it very interesting. "It is an amazing chronicle of Dr. Jay Wortman and his effort to treat the health problems of an entire First Nation village by convincing them to embrace the diet of their ancestors. As a fellow First Nation citizen, Dr. Wortman knows this means a diet high in fat and specifically heavy in something called oolichan grease, which is like a fishy olive oil." from Jimmy's podcast website.
I agree that exercise is important, but I think weight training is the most important. There is some benefit to cardio, but the benefits do not include weight loss. NOVA did a documentary on average joe citizens training for a marathon and not one of them lost any weight despite all the extra cardio they were doing. Exercise is good for making one hungry, not for losing weight. :)
I can verify that exercise doesn`t lead to weight loss. I have strenuous workouts twice a week in karate class...I am talking exercise till you drop, sweat soaked drag your bu tt the car and need help from the kids to get to the house afterwards tough many times...lol
I didn`t lose an ounce...I lost a little girth, have built a lot of muscle, am in the best physical shape of my life...but I am still big as a barn.
I honestly thought burning all of those calories and being careful about what I consumed would do it :(
P.S. I have been wanting to share every time I have read the title of this thread......that the BEST example of how to lose weight that I have seen is just recently when my daughter lost over three hundred lbs of unsightly weight ..... when she dumped loser scummy boy friend....:)
P.S. I have been wanting to share every time I have read the title of this thread......that the BEST example of how to lose weight that I have seen is just recently when my daughter lost over three hundred lbs of unsightly weight ..... when she dumped loser scummy boy friend.... :)
Congrats to daughter for THAT massive weight loss and life gain!!!! :)
I agree that exercise is important, but I think weight training is the most important. There is some benefit to cardio, but the benefits do not include weight loss. NOVA did a documentary on average joe citizens training for a marathon and not one of them lost any weight despite all the extra cardio they were doing. Exercise is good for making one hungry, not for losing weight. :)
So cardio exercise doesn't help you lose weight eh? Well do tell. Do you think that in 5 years the studies will say the exact opposite? The thing is, though.. you have to look at the studies to know these kinds of things. My saying what worked for me is just anecdotal evidence. I liked your links. The scientist and the stair master was particularly informative.
But weight loss or no, I think most people who exercise say they feel a lot better and its been shown to reduce all cause mortality. If you do a Google search on mortality and exercise, lots of studies pop up showing this but here's a link that's not too long to read..Exercise and Mortality So the bottom line is that exercise IS good for you... even if it doesn't make you lose weight, huh?
So cardio exercise doesn't help you lose weight eh? Well do tell. Do you think that in 5 years the studies will say the exact opposite? The thing is, though.. you have to look at the studies to know these kinds of things. My saying what worked for me is just anecdotal evidence. I liked your links. The scientist and the stair master was particularly informative.
But weight loss or no, I think most people who exercise say they feel a lot better and its been shown to reduce all cause mortality. If you do a Google search on mortality and exercise, lots of studies pop up showing this but here's a link that's not too long to read..Exercise and Mortality So the bottom line is that exercise IS good for you... even if it doesn't make you lose weight, huh?
sudo
Come on dude, don't be that way... you know she did NOT say that.
But she DID say similar to what I said about each individual figuring out what works for them... why do you want to argue?
But she DID say similar to what I said about each individual figuring out what works for them...
I said that in my first post. This is why you, who evidently used kind of an eclectic mix of approaches, had such good success. I began my regimen with a blood test..one of those where they take a big vial of blood and you get a printout of EVERYTHING and then I studied it and learned all I could regarding my tolerances to fat, cholesteral, sugar etc. etc. I think this information is necessary before embarking on a strict Atkins type diet. I'd tried that earlier with some unfortunate results. Just one word here....METAMUCIL.
When considering the thing about exercise vs. weight loss, we must remember that when you exercise, you tend to replace fat with muscle mass which is much heavier than fat and consequently, you can end up weighing more, yet losing a few inches from your waist and other places in the process of "toning up". I also agree cardio isn't all it's cracked up to be. Weight training is far more effective, but cardio on "off days" keeps you limber and helps with energy. I say "off days" because I've found it somewhat counter productive to do weight training every day. Every other day works better for me.
I went bicycle riding with Andrew last Friday and crashed on the pavement causing some shoulder problems, so I haven't been doing much of anything except walking a lot, since, but it's getting better and I'll be back on schedule Monday.
Something else that has helped me quite a bit....Americans (and I guess most everyone else), for whatever reason, have gotten into a cultural habit of begnning the day with a small breakfast (or maybe no breakfast at all which is the worst thing you can possibly do), medium sized lunch and a large evening meal. We should do just the opposite and allow our food to fuel our daily activities, beginning the day with our largest meal and tapering down to a small evening meal or even snack, NEVER going to bed full.
Yes, Sudo, calorie intake is important. You simply can't eat 60 rib eye steaks each day or consume 35,000 calories of protein each day and expect to lose weight, especially with little or no vigorous ecxrcise.
Some other things that have been beneficial to me...
I weigh myself each day at about the same time, wearing about the same thing and with the scale in the same place on the floor. I keep a diary of everything I eat throughout the day and the time I ate it.
Consistency is important, as a persons weight can fluctuate as much as 10 lbs. throughout the course of a day and this has to be taken into consideration. This is especially true in the summer when we drink a lot of fluids and sweat a lot.
Rocky, do you know some way to measure BMI with a degree of accuracy without having to go to a special clinic? If so, I sure would appreciate the info.
Rocky, do you know some way to measure BMI with a degree of accuracy without having to go to a special clinic? If so, I sure would appreciate the info.
BMI? Isn't that a German sports car maker? just kidding.
Perhaps, Ron, you were wondering about calculating body fat/lean muscle percentages? If so, that takes more than just plugging some numbers into a table.
I understand there are ways to do that by measuring the amount of water you displace (like in a bathtub). But I don't know how that works.
I get fat/lean percentages measured/calculated at the kinesiotherapy clinic at the VA medical center, generally once/month. They have a gadget that reads soundwaves or something like that on your arm to measure density, then with height and weight calculates the percentages.
You mentioned how not eating breakfast is not a good thing. What do you do though if you're just not hungry in the mornings? Make yourself eat? I used to eat my sardines every morning after doing my power walking and showering. Now I'm not at all hungry until about mid-morning. I know what the studies say.. that those who skip breakfast are much more likely to be overweight but it doesn't seem wise to me to force myself to eat.
Rocky.. I think this has been a good informative thread and I'm not wanting to argue. I think you just missed what Belle had posted: "There is some benefit to cardio, but the benefits do not include weight loss. NOVA did a documentary on average joe citizens training for a marathon and not one of them lost any weight despite all the extra cardio they were doing. Exercise is good for making one hungry, not for losing weight." The reason I was surprised is that its exactly the opposite of one of those "truths" we were all taught. Which is just ANOTHER reason why I have a jaundiced eye to what the "experts" tell us.
Rascal, I second Rocky's congrats! And, as a mom, there's got to be great pleasure in seeing your daughter make wise decisions like that. :)
Rocky, actually, I *did* say that. A few of those new marathon runners wanted to lose weight and were shocked and disappointed that they did not lose anything given how much they were running. The one gal who did lose weight was also doing intensive weight training in addition to the marathon training.
There are many, many benefits to cardio exercise and the extensive tests that they ran on the subjects documented some of them - increased lung capacity, flexibility, better blood pressure, less stress-related symptoms, etc.... Weight loss, however, is not one of the benefits of cardio. The link Sudo posted is great for showing the health benefits.
I'm saying cardio is important - just that it's irrelevant when it comes to losing weight. :)
Ron, sorry about your shoulder. Hope it heals up quickly.
I'm not hungry when I first get up, but a few hours later I'll have breakfast of a coupla eggs and some meat, maybe a handful of blueberries. I find that I'm able to eat a small-ish lunch later in the afternoon and then a much smaller dinner meal that way. If I don't eat breakfast then I find that once I do get hungry, I'm hungry all day long.
Sudo, I'd not "force" yourself to eat breakfast but maybe "try" having a little something even if it's several hours after getting up. But, like we've all said here.... everyone is different and we have to figure out what works for us. Obviously you've been very successful with what you're doing, so I'd say, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
9
10
24
12
Popular Days
Jul 26
15
Jul 23
11
Jul 18
11
Jul 24
7
Top Posters In This Topic
pawtucket 9 posts
Belle 10 posts
Rocky 24 posts
Sudo 12 posts
Popular Days
Jul 26 2008
15 posts
Jul 23 2008
11 posts
Jul 18 2008
11 posts
Jul 24 2008
7 posts
Rocky
I disagree. Pasta is one of those PLANT based protein/carb combinations. HIGH in protein, generally. Contains significant macronutrients (protein). In this case, your IMO is not necessarily that of a medical professional trained in that specific discipline. And for those wanting to give proper emphasis to fiber while eating pasta, there are plenty of available whole grain pastas on the market these days, and not just a health food stores.
I concur with each of your points.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChasUFarley
Sudo - you mention the "short run" but how about the long run? Are there any studies or reports or anything? Just wondering... I'm considering this but felt some of the "side effects" might not make it worth it...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Here are nutritional facts from the latest package of pasta I purchased from Trader Joe's (a month or so ago):
Trader Giotto's Multigrain spaghetti with flax (one pound with 8-2 oz servings)
Calories per serving: 190
Calories from fat: 10
Protein: 9 grams/serving (I aim for 100 grams/protein daily)
Dietary fiber: 5 grams/serving (roughly 1/5 of daily requirement of fiber)
This product (in my CONSIDERED opinion) is rich in critical macronutrients.
And Chas, going into ketosis is NOT a wise thing to do for long term weight management.
What works best for the long term is to make changes to your eating plans/habits that you can maintain for a lifetime.
Atkins, for the longterm, IS setting yourself up for problems with digestive organs.
And Chas, if it's research you're interested in, a book I have but haven't started reading yet is:
Good Calories, Bad Calories challenging the conventional wisdom on diet, weight control and disease by Gary Taubes
I've had it recommended to me and a registered nutritionist is also reading it, so I hope to have feedback from her soon too.
Taubes METICULOUSLY documents and cites research. You should be able to get this book from your local library.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Rocky, you might rethink some of that when you get around to reading Taubes' book.
That pasta has 29 carbs in one serving after subtracting the fiber - Some low carbers would consider that a whole day's worth of carbs, some a half day's carbs and some would consider it okay as long as it's balanced with lots of protein and/or fat. Way too much for me right now.
Finding a long term lifestyle diet is key, I agree and low carb is easy in that protein and fat are satisfying, take longer to digest and keep you full longer so we don't get hungry as often and it's not the intense hunger that comes from a carb crash. I think people don't realize that "low carb" isn't "no carb". A healthy "low carb" diet contains veggies, fruit and high fiber choices.
Bottom line is finding what works for us personally and keeps us feeling well, imo. I'm insulin resistant along with a few other issues, including diabetes on both sides of my family, so the low carb lifestyle is what appears to be best for me.... a vegan lifestyle is what a very dear friend of mine considers best for her.
Regarding ketosis:
Ketosis, generally, only happens with very low carbohydrate intake and/or with very overweight individuals. It is not dangerous to be in ketosis. Ketoacidosis is what most people confuse ketosis with and ketoacidosis IS dangerous.
Here's what Dr. Michael Eades, author of Protein Power, says about ketosis:
"Ketones... are made when fat breaks down. As you read the words on this page you are producing ketones, but unless you're on this diet or have been fasting, you're probably not in ketosis - the state of having a measurable level of ketones in your blood. Ketones are an intermediate stage of fat breakdown, and not only are they not poison as described by several health writers, but they're used as fuel by most of the body's tissues including the brain. The heart, in fact, prefers ketones to all other fuel.
The body must have sufficient carbohydrate to completely burn for energy all the ketones produced. The diet causes the breakdown of fat, producing an abundance of ketones - especially in the overweight person - but the intervention diets don't provide enough carbohydrate to burn all of them. These excess ketones circulate in the blood and must be gotten rid of i other ways. The body releases them via the urine, the stool and the breath. Since ketones are incompletely burned fat, any that you get rid of without actually using them for energy means you are ditching unwanted fat without having to actually burn it off"
He goes on to say that unless you are a type 1 diabetic ketones and ketosis is not dangerous.
"Dr. Lubert Stryer, professor of Biochemistry at Stanford University and the author of the biochemistry textbook used in most medical schools, says ketones are 'normal fuels of respiration and are quantitatively important sources of energy.' 'Indeed,' Dr. Stryer continues, 'heart muscle and the renal cortex (kidney) use [ketones] in preference to glucose.'
Drs. Donald and Judith Voet, authors of another popular medical biochemistry textbook, say that ketones 'serve as important metabolic fuels for many peripheral tissues, particularly heart and skeletal muscle.'
So if you trust the consensus among medical experts and scientists, you will understand that ketones are a perfectly normal fuel used preferentially by most of the tissues in the body for their energy needs. In fact - except for type 1 diabetics - there is no evidence for the opinion that ketones are dangerous."
***********
I will further second the recommendation for Taubes' book. The link to that an another excellent article written by him are in my first post of this thread. He documents medical study after medical study providing proof that the low carb diet is the healthiest, best diet for MOST people and ESPECIALLY people with diabetes, insulin resistance, metabolic syndrome and many, many other health situations. Insulin is a primary factor in fat production and storage in our bodies - low carb regulates, controls and minimizes insulin production in the body.
The fact that a high carb/low fat diet is what you see so much of is due to political and ego wrangling of not a few people in high places - also heavily documented by Taubes in his book. I can not recommend that book enough - it has really opened my eyes. Dr. Eades, in fact, has a blog entry about Tabues' book, a medical review of it and Taubes' response.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Taubes on the study that Sudo first mentioned in this thread:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pawtucket
I've lost about 5 lbs since this thread started
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
I hope that's not JUST from reading the thread! :)
Indeed, encouragement from friends is a great ingredient to a successful weight management plan.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pawtucket
I'm on a 960 calorie a day liquid diet that is medically supervised. Started on the 1st of the month lost about 23 lbs so far.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rejoice
There is a doctor in NY, Richard Bernstein MD who is a diabetic and diabetic specialist. He has an amazing story, website and forum. I was prediabetic doing all the right things and getting bad results---weight gain, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, thryoid troubles. When I switched, all my numbers came back to normal [blood pressure dropped to normal in 7 days!], and I effortlessly dropped the 50 lbs I'd gained on a vegetarian lifestyle.
Dr Bernstein's his health/food plan is this...your main source of calories is from low carb veggies, then proteins and fats. For diabetics, fruits are consumed very minimally, like dessert only at holiday times.
The only way you can compromise your kidneys is if you eat TOO MUCH protein. Those who understand the chemistry of weight management can actually calculate your body's protein requirements per day, and then the individual takes that total and divides it up between 5-6 small meals all day. 60 grams of protein is a minimum requirement for healthy cell maintenance and repair. I lost weight with 95 grams/protein per day.
Dr Bernstein advises against all flour products, which obivously includes all pastas. He's not big on rice either...he distinguishes between fast acting and slow acting carbs. It is the fast acting ones that quickly spike blood sugar and therefore insulin. Insulin is the fat storing hormone. Low insulin stimulation allows you to burn the food you take in as well as fat that is stored for energy.
Long ago, a doctor told me that everyone should be following a diabetic food plan---and the medical community would be drastically reduced!
This page is for medical professionals:
http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/bernstein/
This page is for the rest of us;
http://www.diabetes-normalsugars.com/
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sudo
Rocky,
That's some mighty fortified pasta you've got there. Here's what I get for pasta's nutritional value from going to "pasta" on Wikipedia:
Pasta, dry, unenriched
Nutritional value per 100 g (3.5 oz)
Energy 370 kcal 1550 kJ
Carbohydrates 75 g
- Starch 62 g
- Sugars 2 g
- Dietary fibre 3 g
Fat 1.5 g
Protein 13 g
Water 10 g
Folate (Vit. B9) 18 μg 5%
Percentages are relative to US
recommendations for adults.
Source: USDA Nutrient database
This has been a good thread so far I think. The whole point for my starting it was that the latest two year study backs up all the other studies showing the low carb diet as the best at losing weight AND showing a better lipid profile to boot. Yet.. its against our natures to accept it. Click on Belle's Taubes on the study And at the end (its a short article) read the first comment. I think you'll find it interesting. And BTW.. you're right about my credentials. I'm not trying to pass myself off as a nutritional expert. I'm just a dentist. But like Belle and Rejoice, I've done extensive study on the subject.
Oh, and your statement: "Atkins, for the longterm, IS setting yourself up for problems with digestive organs." I'm thinking you're saying that because it seems to you that must be what would happen, no? I haven't seen anything about the Atkins diet in any study that wasn't pretty good. If you think about it, the Eskimo diet is all meat. There's not much plant life that grows in the snow. In fact, it was the fact that the Inuit don't get heart disease that baffled everybody and started the search for why that was.
But I try not to be too dogmatic about the low carb diet because there are people like you who've also lost weight doing other diets. Some folks just can't stand eating low carb and Weight Watchers works for them. But the evidence is mounting with each study that it is INDEED carbs that both make people fat and raise their cholesterol... not fat. But lots of people just won't accept it.
sudo
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
I'm not interested in a p1$$ing match with you sudo.
Bottom line is that if you don't want to eat pasta, don't eat it.
I find nothing inappropriate with including pasta in my regular eating plans.
This is certainly NOT a game of who's right or wrong.
It's a matter for each individual to find what works for him or her.
For the long run, the very best idea is to determine what you can eat that will satisfy your hungers and cravings while taking in the least amount of calories -- in a way that you can maintain for the rest of your life.
That means the whole concept of going on "a diet" is faulty, IMO.
And yes, I think Taubes's book is a gold mine of insight waiting to be had...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
btw, BEST WISHES for long life and health to PAWTUCKET, especially for the adventure involved in the medically supervised diet.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rejoice
Hey...I LOVE pasta, but I'm like Sudo...my body responds to it rapidly.
I actually went to talk with a bariatric physician [obesity specialist] because I was so frustrated that EVERY diet out there didn't work. Heck...i GAINED weight on Weight Watchers first week quick weight loss.
He said something remarkable; just as our fingerprints are unique, our individual body chemistry is unique. That's why one person will do well on a diet and another will not.
The trick is for each of us, it is trial and error. I can only take in 60 grams of carbs [starches or fruits] per day to maintain weight. Any more and I gain it. Yet, my son-in-law LIVES on carbs and is struggling to keep his weight UP!!
Edited by RejoiceLink to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Yes, metabolism. Thanks for reminding me.
Intake is only one side of the equation.
Expenditure of calories is the other side of that equation.
Exercise and other lifestyle issues have a key role in that expenditure.
For me, I didn't really start losing weight until I started a regular exercise regimen that included BOTH cardio (aerobic) exercise AND resistance/muscle development/weightlifting. And when one starts regular weightlifting, he generally GAINS weight at first. However, the added MUSCLE BURNS CALORIES. Whereas, FAT only STORES calories.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sudo
Rocky,
You guys mentioned exercise and it hasn't come up yet about the Atkins diet but he said you HAD to exercise. It was non-negotiable. I had the same experience you did when I started limiting my carbs. I was losing weight but not that much. I started doing brisk "power walking" every morning and the pounds started pouring off . I was eating like a pig because on a low carb diet calories aren't counted. Every week I'd get on the scales and I had lost another 5lbs. It was like magic.
I've heard "experts" say that the reason exercise (even just walking) works so well is that otherwise the body thinks its going into starvation mode and the metabolism changes to keep the weight on for use when there is no food. But I say "experts" for a reason. You can't trust what the "experts" say. They don't really KNOW as the study I posted in my firsts post points out. That's one of the reasons I am SUCH a cynic on almost everything and dogmatic on next to nothing.
sudo
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
WAY TO GO, PAW!!! You have my utmost respect as I know that is not the easiest regimen to follow. (where's that bowing down avatar?)
Rocky, you're absolutely right - we do have to figure out what works for us, personally. I tried that d@mned cabbage soup diet and GAINED weight! Two weeks in a row!!
Too much stuff that spikes blood sugar, I guess. I couldn't figure it out at the time but it was the turning point for me to go to a doctor about my inability to lose weight no matter what.
Jimmy Moore has an awesome low carb blog and interviews lots of the prominent low carb doctors, researchers and authors. He also has started a list of low carb doctors so we can find a doctor who recognizes the benefits of low carb and uses it first instead of drugs. Excellent info for us low carb information junkies!
Sudo, if you haven't heard of this Canadian documentary, then you'll find it very interesting. "It is an amazing chronicle of Dr. Jay Wortman and his effort to treat the health problems of an entire First Nation village by convincing them to embrace the diet of their ancestors. As a fellow First Nation citizen, Dr. Wortman knows this means a diet high in fat and specifically heavy in something called oolichan grease, which is like a fishy olive oil." from Jimmy's podcast website.
I agree that exercise is important, but I think weight training is the most important. There is some benefit to cardio, but the benefits do not include weight loss. NOVA did a documentary on average joe citizens training for a marathon and not one of them lost any weight despite all the extra cardio they were doing. Exercise is good for making one hungry, not for losing weight. :)
The Scientist and the Stairmaster: Why most of us believe that exercise makes us thinner—and why we're wrong is a great article on the subject.
I'm actually growing rather fond of yoga, myself.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
I can verify that exercise doesn`t lead to weight loss. I have strenuous workouts twice a week in karate class...I am talking exercise till you drop, sweat soaked drag your bu tt the car and need help from the kids to get to the house afterwards tough many times...lol
I didn`t lose an ounce...I lost a little girth, have built a lot of muscle, am in the best physical shape of my life...but I am still big as a barn.
I honestly thought burning all of those calories and being careful about what I consumed would do it :(
P.S. I have been wanting to share every time I have read the title of this thread......that the BEST example of how to lose weight that I have seen is just recently when my daughter lost over three hundred lbs of unsightly weight ..... when she dumped loser scummy boy friend....:)
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Congrats to daughter for THAT massive weight loss and life gain!!!! :)
Absolutely...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sudo
Belle,
So cardio exercise doesn't help you lose weight eh? Well do tell. Do you think that in 5 years the studies will say the exact opposite? The thing is, though.. you have to look at the studies to know these kinds of things. My saying what worked for me is just anecdotal evidence. I liked your links. The scientist and the stair master was particularly informative.
But weight loss or no, I think most people who exercise say they feel a lot better and its been shown to reduce all cause mortality. If you do a Google search on mortality and exercise, lots of studies pop up showing this but here's a link that's not too long to read..Exercise and Mortality So the bottom line is that exercise IS good for you... even if it doesn't make you lose weight, huh?
sudo
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Come on dude, don't be that way... you know she did NOT say that.
But she DID say similar to what I said about each individual figuring out what works for them... why do you want to argue?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ron G.
I said that in my first post. This is why you, who evidently used kind of an eclectic mix of approaches, had such good success. I began my regimen with a blood test..one of those where they take a big vial of blood and you get a printout of EVERYTHING and then I studied it and learned all I could regarding my tolerances to fat, cholesteral, sugar etc. etc. I think this information is necessary before embarking on a strict Atkins type diet. I'd tried that earlier with some unfortunate results. Just one word here....METAMUCIL.
When considering the thing about exercise vs. weight loss, we must remember that when you exercise, you tend to replace fat with muscle mass which is much heavier than fat and consequently, you can end up weighing more, yet losing a few inches from your waist and other places in the process of "toning up". I also agree cardio isn't all it's cracked up to be. Weight training is far more effective, but cardio on "off days" keeps you limber and helps with energy. I say "off days" because I've found it somewhat counter productive to do weight training every day. Every other day works better for me.
I went bicycle riding with Andrew last Friday and crashed on the pavement causing some shoulder problems, so I haven't been doing much of anything except walking a lot, since, but it's getting better and I'll be back on schedule Monday.
Something else that has helped me quite a bit....Americans (and I guess most everyone else), for whatever reason, have gotten into a cultural habit of begnning the day with a small breakfast (or maybe no breakfast at all which is the worst thing you can possibly do), medium sized lunch and a large evening meal. We should do just the opposite and allow our food to fuel our daily activities, beginning the day with our largest meal and tapering down to a small evening meal or even snack, NEVER going to bed full.
Yes, Sudo, calorie intake is important. You simply can't eat 60 rib eye steaks each day or consume 35,000 calories of protein each day and expect to lose weight, especially with little or no vigorous ecxrcise.
Some other things that have been beneficial to me...
I weigh myself each day at about the same time, wearing about the same thing and with the scale in the same place on the floor. I keep a diary of everything I eat throughout the day and the time I ate it.
Consistency is important, as a persons weight can fluctuate as much as 10 lbs. throughout the course of a day and this has to be taken into consideration. This is especially true in the summer when we drink a lot of fluids and sweat a lot.
Rocky, do you know some way to measure BMI with a degree of accuracy without having to go to a special clinic? If so, I sure would appreciate the info.
Edited by Ron G.Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
BMI? Isn't that a German sports car maker?
just kidding.
BMI calculator
Calculating BMI is the easy part.
Perhaps, Ron, you were wondering about calculating body fat/lean muscle percentages? If so, that takes more than just plugging some numbers into a table.
I understand there are ways to do that by measuring the amount of water you displace (like in a bathtub). But I don't know how that works.
I get fat/lean percentages measured/calculated at the kinesiotherapy clinic at the VA medical center, generally once/month. They have a gadget that reads soundwaves or something like that on your arm to measure density, then with height and weight calculates the percentages.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sudo
Ron,
You mentioned how not eating breakfast is not a good thing. What do you do though if you're just not hungry in the mornings? Make yourself eat? I used to eat my sardines every morning after doing my power walking and showering. Now I'm not at all hungry until about mid-morning. I know what the studies say.. that those who skip breakfast are much more likely to be overweight but it doesn't seem wise to me to force myself to eat.
Rocky.. I think this has been a good informative thread and I'm not wanting to argue. I think you just missed what Belle had posted: "There is some benefit to cardio, but the benefits do not include weight loss. NOVA did a documentary on average joe citizens training for a marathon and not one of them lost any weight despite all the extra cardio they were doing. Exercise is good for making one hungry, not for losing weight." The reason I was surprised is that its exactly the opposite of one of those "truths" we were all taught. Which is just ANOTHER reason why I have a jaundiced eye to what the "experts" tell us.
sudo
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Rascal, I second Rocky's congrats! And, as a mom, there's got to be great pleasure in seeing your daughter make wise decisions like that. :)
Rocky, actually, I *did* say that.
A few of those new marathon runners wanted to lose weight and were shocked and disappointed that they did not lose anything given how much they were running. The one gal who did lose weight was also doing intensive weight training in addition to the marathon training.
There are many, many benefits to cardio exercise and the extensive tests that they ran on the subjects documented some of them - increased lung capacity, flexibility, better blood pressure, less stress-related symptoms, etc.... Weight loss, however, is not one of the benefits of cardio. The link Sudo posted is great for showing the health benefits.
I'm saying cardio is important - just that it's irrelevant when it comes to losing weight. :)
Ron, sorry about your shoulder. Hope it heals up quickly.
I'm not hungry when I first get up, but a few hours later I'll have breakfast of a coupla eggs and some meat, maybe a handful of blueberries. I find that I'm able to eat a small-ish lunch later in the afternoon and then a much smaller dinner meal that way. If I don't eat breakfast then I find that once I do get hungry, I'm hungry all day long.
Sudo, I'd not "force" yourself to eat breakfast but maybe "try" having a little something even if it's several hours after getting up. But, like we've all said here.... everyone is different and we have to figure out what works for us. Obviously you've been very successful with what you're doing, so I'd say, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.