Well, no not really. You do not have the strength in your flesh to change your flesh. That's like trying not to have brown eyes when you do have brown eyes. You might "pretend" to behave differently, but the lusts and the desires that drive the behavior are still in the heart and what's in your heart will come out eventually, no matter how hard you try to mask it and cloak it with works of the flesh.
Besides, unless you love God and care about what He thinks, why would you stop to think that you need to change your behavior anyway?
I think we have always had the Holy Spirit.
It's just a matter of it waking up or being aroused.
It's in every part of our being.
This simply is not the testimony of scripture brother. There was a time in Saul's life when he did not have the spirit. Then God gave it to him and he could prophecy. Then he flaked out and lost the spirit.
Take Joseph for example or Moses.
Even Moses said for all to be a 'prophet'.
Or whatever he said. Close anyway.
Actually, Moses said he wished all of God's people were prophets and that they had the spirit (Num. 11:29). Why was this Moses' desire? Because the people didn't have the spirit.
Why is it that some believe that others don't have the spirit?
Because of scriptures like mentioned above.
Without it, our minds could not do what they do in many things.
Who says?
I think the label of 'Christian' is abused and used to promote one's own self.
Of course it is. That just affirms the truth of scripture regarding the deceitfulness of man. This in no way casts a shadow on God, Christ or their movement to save mankind known as Christianity.
A lot of us were taught this and still believe that 'christian' is the only way to heaven.
If the Bible is telling the truth, then it is the only way. But if one believes the Bible is a joke, then he has no standard to hold himself to and can tell himself whatever he wants to in life to make himself feel better.
Of course I don't buy it.
Plenty of people don't. That doesn't mean it's not the truth.
I think we all are getting heaven now and later.
If that's true, then Jesus Christ is a nobody and wasted his time. Neither is the case.
Discovering ourselves is a great journey and unique to each of us.
Plenty of people who think they're enlightened who know nothing about God nor themselves.
A Christian is a follower, believer and active disciple of Jesus Christ as the true Way(road, path, trail, journey) in faith/trust/assurance/believing(but not VPW's rendering/interpretation) for their entire life, growing and maturing in behavior and attitude.
Free, I don't think that the bible is a joke, but I also don't believe it's an "only standard" either.
I think it is a result of the Word but not the Word. whatever it is actually saying which has been debated, and will continue to be among "Christians".
I don't think I need the Christian label, nor the bible to have the spirit.
There are many 'standards', even within 'Christianity'.
So I ask what does God, the Lord, the Spirit have to do.
If we by our own works, save ourselves, it seems self righteous.
It is by the work of something else that men and women begin to see.
Thanks for your input Oakspear.
Another good question or three.
growing and maturing in behavior and attitude
I like that Thomas.
----
Wouldn't 'the Way' have more then Christianity as it's only way?
A lot of people say they are a christian because of something they did.
Rom 10:9,10
Accept Jesus as your savior
Or believing something
What exactly happens when someone does this?
Nothing as far as I can tell.
Sure you can change your behavior,
but can't you do that anyway?
What happened to what the Lord or God or Christ does?
Regardless of what we say or do.
Does it not have any affect or influence?
I think we have always had the Holy Spirit.
It's just a matter of it waking up or being aroused.
It's in every part of our being.
Take Joseph for example or Moses.
Even Moses said for all to be a 'prophet'.
Or whatever he said. Close anyway.
Why is it that some believe that others don't have the spirit?
Without it, our minds could not do what they do in many things.
I think the labal of 'Christian' is abused and used to promote one's own self.
Though some may not be aware of this, it is what we were taught.
A lot of us were taught this and still believe that 'christian' is the only way to heaven.
Of course I don't buy it.
I think we all are getting heaven now and later.
With all the paths and things that happen along the way.
Discovering ourselves is a great journey and unique to each of us.
Hey cman
I really hope you don't mind me responding--we don't always see eye to eye---but what a great topic--I am going to surprize you and agree with you a bit. It is not we who completely change ourselves.
We must be convicted in our hearts before we even see our need for salvation. That is the minstry of the Holy Spirit.
John 16:8-11 When He comes, He will convict the world about sin, righteousness, and judgment: 9 about sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me; 11 and about judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
The world has no definitive sense of righteousness. In 1 Corinthians 4:3-5 Paul says, "I don't even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.... He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts" . We damn ourselves if we measure ourselves by ourselves. We must follow the one true standard of righteousness--Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit wants to show us the righteousness of Christ so we'll understand our sinfulness.
Once we see our need for a Savior we are to confess Him (Jesus) as Lord. Does any old Jesus do? Can we make Him who we would like Him to be--or is He real? Will the Jesus of the Muslim faith save you? I tend to think not--as we are warned by Paul in 2 Corinthians of another Jesus--I didn't put it in there, Paul did.
So, when we confess Him--the Jesus of the bible as Lord. Are we instantly transformed--or does the Lord do this? What is transformation? I know that when I repented of my sin--it was enough to knock me to my knees--it wasn't a quick--I have sinned--forgive me. It was something that I will never forget, because the weight of what I had done--against a Holy God--was on my shoulders and it nearly felled me. The start of transformation was when I accepted Jesus as my Savior.
It is the Lords work--
Romans 8:29 For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.
2 Cor 3:18 We all, with unveiled faces, are reflecting the glory of the Lord and are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory; this is from the Lord who is the Spirit.
It is the Lord who transforms us. Phil 1:6 6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus
Col 1:22 But now He has reconciled you by His physical body through His death, to present you holy, faultless, and blameless before Him —
We are Jesus' gift to God--it is His work--not our own.
But how does transformation happen? Well, one of the ways we find in Romans--affliction and trial. . . . .
Romans 5:2 Also through Him, we have obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also rejoice in our afflictions, because we know that affliction produces endurance, 4 endurance produces proven character, and proven character produces hope.
James 1: 2 Consider it a great joy, my brothers, whenever you experience various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4 But endurance must do its complete work, so that you may be mature and complete, lacking nothing.
5 Now if any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives to all generously and without criticizing, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith without doubting. For the doubter is like the surging sea, driven and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 An indecisive man is unstable in all his ways.
9 The brother of humble circumstances should boast in his exaltation; 10 but the one who is rich [should boast] in his humiliation, because he will pass away like a flower of the field. 11 For the sun rises with its scorching heat and dries up the grass; its flower falls off, and its beautiful appearance is destroyed. In the same way, the rich man will wither away while pursuing his activities.
12 Blessed is a man who endures trials, because when he passes the test he will receive the crown of life that He has promised to those who love Him.
13 No one undergoing a trial should say, "I am being tempted by God." For God is not tempted by evil, and He Himself doesn't tempt anyone. 14 But each person is tempted when he is drawn away and enticed by his own evil desires. 15 Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death. 16 Don't be deceived, my dearly loved brothers. 17 Every generous act and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights; with Him there is no variation or shadow cast by turning. 18 By His own choice, He gave us a new birth by the message of truth so that we would be the firstfruits of His creatures.
God does not tempt us--it is when we are carried away by sin--but in these trials--we learn about our sin--we learn NOT to sin! We are being refined--.
Hebrews 12:10 For they disciplined us for a short time based on what seemed good to them, but He does it for our benefit, so that we can share His holiness.
A Christians life is often a real struggle between flesh and God--But, HIS refining work transforms us from sin to Godliness. That is when you see transformation in a person. When God is at work.
Remember whom God chooses--James 2:55 Listen, my dear brothers: Didn't God choose the poor in this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that He has promised to those who love Him?
If I know I am a sinner--I will not judge those who sin--why would I?? I am a sinner. I offer the Lord and His gift of salvation to those seeking--It has nothing to do with me--or my goodness-just the opposite. Really - Truly--the opposite. I know I have sinned!! I know we ALL sin.
I don't think the Holy Spirit is in everyone--that runs contrary to scripture and would make Jesus' death and ressurection pointless. The Holy Spirit is sent to convict and then comfort, He testifies of God. That is His ministry--
John 15:26 26 When the Counselor comes, the One I will send to you from the Father —the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father—He will testify about Me.
John 14:26 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit &md;the Father will send Him in My name&md;will teach you all things and remind you of everything I have told you.
It doesn't appear to be all inclusive--
John14:17 He is the Spirit of truth. The world is unable to receive Him because it doesn't see Him or know Him. But you do know Him, because He remains with you and will be in you.
If Jesus is not the only way to God--to heaven-- He lied, and there is no point in believing on Him--He had to lead a sinless life.
BTW-- We don't glory or boast in transformation--it is His work--when we pray--we remember He does a good work in us--He can have faith in His OWN good work. He created this transformation in us--so we are grateful and joyous!
If there is no transformation--time to ask for saving faith!
Obedience, out of Love for God also transforms us--His Love transforms us--His grace does--it is All His work. I am a pathetic sinner--I need ALL the help I can get. I boast in Him and Glory in the cross!
A lot of people say they are a christian because of something they did.
Rom 10:9,10
Accept Jesus as your savior
Or believing something
What exactly happens when someone does this?
Nothing as far as I can tell.
Sure you can change your behavior,
but can't you do that anyway?
What happened to what the Lord or God or Christ does?
Regardless of what we say or do.
Does it not have any affect or influence?
I think we have always had the Holy Spirit.
It's just a matter of it waking up or being aroused.
It's in every part of our being.
Take Joseph for example or Moses.
Even Moses said for all to be a 'prophet'.
Or whatever he said. Close anyway.
Why is it that some believe that others don't have the spirit?
Without it, our minds could not do what they do in many things.
I think the labal of 'Christian' is abused and used to promote one's own self.
Though some may not be aware of this, it is what we were taught.
A lot of us were taught this and still believe that 'christian' is the only way to heaven.
Of course I don't buy it.
I think we all are getting heaven now and later.
With all the paths and things that happen along the way.
Discovering ourselves is a great journey and unique to each of us.
cman- I wish I really knew where you were coming from. From what I can gather, you like the Bible. But do you base your entire worldview on it?
Can you honestly say your belief in God, ultimate reality, knowledge, ethics and human nature is based on it?
Your questions about what makes the difference in becoming a Christian I hope is an honest one. If I can pick up on geisha's post , let me add the following:
The irony lies in that a true Christian recognizes first and foremost that he NEEDS a Savior. A non Christian has no such desire. Yet it is the work of the Holy Spirit that convicts, or in reality, CONVINCES a person they are in need.
You don't really get it unless you admit you don't have it
A Christian can also be recognized by the characeristics in Matthew 5- a broken spirt, true hunger and a repentant heart.
If you are looking for a more moral lifestyle, you may find pagans with that. It is no secret that the Christian divorce rate is just as bad as non-Christian.
There is no phone booth we can step into and change into our Super-Christian outfit, instead the world should recognize us as people who readily admit they sin, need God's grace, goodness and favor in their lives, but there must be an outward reflection of Jesus in day to day living, or it is not genuine. He is the only one able to really transform us.
May I add that a true Chrisian has a hunger for the knowledge of God- they feed on His Word, because everyday they are seeing they are not better than anyone else- in fact, just the opposite- they see their need for Him to save them
You are right, people can change their habits and act nicer, but the saving work of Christ is from the inside out- The admission of Paul- I know that in my flesh dwelleth no good thing
God perfects, we cannot perfect ourselves. We are a truly needy people
I think we can admit that we spend our lives trying and trying to act good enough for God to like us, but He saved us while we were yet His enemies.
John14:17 He is the Spirit of truth. The world is unable to receive Him because it doesn't see Him or know Him. But you do know Him, because He remains with you and will be in you.
If Jesus is not the only way to God--to heaven-- He lied, and there is no point in believing on Him--He had to lead a sinless life.
I don't understand this reasoning.
It's the spirit of truth that the scripture refers to.
Spoudazo, and Geisha,
If one is to convinced of sin.
or righteosness.
or the Lord Jesus Christ,
and brought to the place of seeing it.
Then how is this done?
By the spirit or something else?
If it's by the spirit it would have to be there already.
It's the spirit of truth that the scripture refers to.
Spoudazo, and Geisha,
If one is to convinced of sin.
or righteosness.
or the Lord Jesus Christ,
and brought to the place of seeing it.
Then how is this done?
By the spirit or something else?
If it's by the spirit it would have to be there already.
Then one could make a decision.
Cman
Not trying to be obtuse--I don't understand your confusion. I am not saying you don't have a point. I just don't quite get what you are saying. How is any of this a problem? Could be me not hearing you, but I am interested in what you see--that I don't.
Can the answer to "What (or who) is a Christian?" be as simple as "Anyone who says they're a Christian"?
All this talk about certain groups who claim the name Christian being considered not Christain, or following another Jesus...
The fact remains that the use of the term Christian was first used in Antioch to denote those that were following the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. The essence of the NAME is that they are FOLLOWING THE TEACHINGS of the LORD JEUS CHRIST. It is not JUST A NAME to denote that perhaps you actually go to some type of church and function as a PEW POTATO. The Lord Jesus said quite clearly and concisely that you would know HIS followers by their fruit that they produced in their lives. Not that anyone is perfect, but there should be a consistent pattern of growth, even as a tree continues to grow.
I don't think they are the same thing--not interchangeable.I don't think I said that? I am really -- honestly---trying to follow you. You have to cut me some slack--I am a blonde.
If you tell me who you think the Holy Spirit is--it will help me greatly to understand where you are coming from. It may make your response click with me.
:)
We are body--soul or if you like, spirit creatures. I think we agree on that? Or maybe not? There are a couple schools of thought on this--trichotomous-dichotomous,
I am not sure where you land.
I am not sure it is all that important which way we think on this--meaning it doesn't really impact our salvation. But, interesting all the same.
In the Lord's timing, the Lord's day will happen within each of us.
And continue.
There is no escape from that which is in us.
When a seed starts growing it will break the crust of the earth.
Thanks for telling me what you believe cman. I dare say we believe entirely differing things. Just curious what you base this understanding on--but its okay if you don't want to answer.
Just an aside--if this is the case, when does someone like Hitler--or Stalin have their breakthrough?
Is God a man that He should lie when He says. . . . . . .
Hebrews 10:29 How much worse punishment, do you think one will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God, regarded as profane the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know the One who has said, Vengeance belongs to Me, I will repay, and again, The Lord will judge His people. 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God!
There is more than one way to insult grace cman--just think about that for a moment--these are difficult verses to come to, but If God is worthy ---and He is---He is Just--That is part of the greatness and wisdom of God--Part of His love--a higher love than man's love. And. . . . . He is no respecter of person.
You'll get to see for your self what becomes of people like you mentioned.
I could try but it wouldn't work. Unless I'm speaking by the Spirit of God and then that same God works in you and shows you the answer. Which may not be what I said but when the spirit moves we can't tell it where to go.
I would like to answer you from my heart if I might. I would love to have a dialogue with you. I respect you as a person, and although we don't always see
eye to eye, I believe you have a kind heart.
Here is my problem, and this is the naked truth. I do not understand your posts or what you are trying to say--enough to converse with you.
I am sure it is me--and my lack of understanding--so, it is in NO way a derogatory implication. I cannot follow what you are trying to express.
Christianity is a common faith. It is a family united around one person--Jesus. When a faith is so far removed from what I know--it is hard for me to really
understand ---When Jesus is unrecognizable to me--from anothers perspective--I cannot relate on a meaningful level in common faith.
I actually do not get what you are saying. But, I read it and I think about it--I in no way want to ever be rude to you.
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OneWhoIsFree
Well, no not really. You do not have the strength in your flesh to change your flesh. That's like trying not to have brown eyes when you do have brown eyes. You might "pretend" to behave differently, but the lusts and the desires that drive the behavior are still in the heart and what's in your heart will come out eventually, no matter how hard you try to mask it and cloak it with works of the flesh.
Besides, unless you love God and care about what He thinks, why would you stop to think that you need to change your behavior anyway?
This simply is not the testimony of scripture brother. There was a time in Saul's life when he did not have the spirit. Then God gave it to him and he could prophecy. Then he flaked out and lost the spirit.Actually, Moses said he wished all of God's people were prophets and that they had the spirit (Num. 11:29). Why was this Moses' desire? Because the people didn't have the spirit.
Because of scriptures like mentioned above.Who says?
Of course it is. That just affirms the truth of scripture regarding the deceitfulness of man. This in no way casts a shadow on God, Christ or their movement to save mankind known as Christianity.If the Bible is telling the truth, then it is the only way. But if one believes the Bible is a joke, then he has no standard to hold himself to and can tell himself whatever he wants to in life to make himself feel better.
Plenty of people don't. That doesn't mean it's not the truth.If that's true, then Jesus Christ is a nobody and wasted his time. Neither is the case.
Plenty of people who think they're enlightened who know nothing about God nor themselves.
Love ya cman, :)
Free
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Oakspear
Can the answer to "What (or who) is a Christian?" be as simple as "Anyone who says they're a Christian"?
All this talk about certain groups who claim the name Christian being considered not Christain, or following another Jesus...
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
A Christian is a follower, believer and active disciple of Jesus Christ as the true Way(road, path, trail, journey) in faith/trust/assurance/believing(but not VPW's rendering/interpretation) for their entire life, growing and maturing in behavior and attitude.
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cman
Free, I don't think that the bible is a joke, but I also don't believe it's an "only standard" either.
I think it is a result of the Word but not the Word. whatever it is actually saying which has been debated, and will continue to be among "Christians".
I don't think I need the Christian label, nor the bible to have the spirit.
There are many 'standards', even within 'Christianity'.
So I ask what does God, the Lord, the Spirit have to do.
If we by our own works, save ourselves, it seems self righteous.
It is by the work of something else that men and women begin to see.
Thanks for your input Oakspear.
Another good question or three.
I like that Thomas.
----
Wouldn't 'the Way' have more then Christianity as it's only way?
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Sunesis
When Christ was asked what was required of a man by God he said just "one thing" - believe on Him [Christ] whom God sent.
A Christian is simply one who believes on the One God sent - Christ.
He has invited Christ into his heart.
Christianity is Union with Christ.
All other ritual, regulation, do this, that, etc. is extraneous, not needful and not required.
A Christian is a follower with a goal of unity with Christ.
For me, its simple. Nothing more is needed.
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geisha779
Hey cman
I really hope you don't mind me responding--we don't always see eye to eye---but what a great topic--I am going to surprize you and agree with you a bit. It is not we who completely change ourselves.
We must be convicted in our hearts before we even see our need for salvation. That is the minstry of the Holy Spirit.
John 16:8-11 When He comes, He will convict the world about sin, righteousness, and judgment: 9 about sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me; 11 and about judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
The world has no definitive sense of righteousness. In 1 Corinthians 4:3-5 Paul says, "I don't even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.... He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts" . We damn ourselves if we measure ourselves by ourselves. We must follow the one true standard of righteousness--Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit wants to show us the righteousness of Christ so we'll understand our sinfulness.
Once we see our need for a Savior we are to confess Him (Jesus) as Lord. Does any old Jesus do? Can we make Him who we would like Him to be--or is He real? Will the Jesus of the Muslim faith save you? I tend to think not--as we are warned by Paul in 2 Corinthians of another Jesus--I didn't put it in there, Paul did.
So, when we confess Him--the Jesus of the bible as Lord. Are we instantly transformed--or does the Lord do this? What is transformation? I know that when I repented of my sin--it was enough to knock me to my knees--it wasn't a quick--I have sinned--forgive me. It was something that I will never forget, because the weight of what I had done--against a Holy God--was on my shoulders and it nearly felled me. The start of transformation was when I accepted Jesus as my Savior.
It is the Lords work--
Romans 8:29 For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.
2 Cor 3:18 We all, with unveiled faces, are reflecting the glory of the Lord and are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory; this is from the Lord who is the Spirit.
It is the Lord who transforms us. Phil 1:6 6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus
Col 1:22 But now He has reconciled you by His physical body through His death, to present you holy, faultless, and blameless before Him —
We are Jesus' gift to God--it is His work--not our own.
But how does transformation happen? Well, one of the ways we find in Romans--affliction and trial. . . . .
Romans 5:2 Also through Him, we have obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also rejoice in our afflictions, because we know that affliction produces endurance, 4 endurance produces proven character, and proven character produces hope.
James 1: 2 Consider it a great joy, my brothers, whenever you experience various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4 But endurance must do its complete work, so that you may be mature and complete, lacking nothing.
5 Now if any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives to all generously and without criticizing, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith without doubting. For the doubter is like the surging sea, driven and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 An indecisive man is unstable in all his ways.
9 The brother of humble circumstances should boast in his exaltation; 10 but the one who is rich [should boast] in his humiliation, because he will pass away like a flower of the field. 11 For the sun rises with its scorching heat and dries up the grass; its flower falls off, and its beautiful appearance is destroyed. In the same way, the rich man will wither away while pursuing his activities.
12 Blessed is a man who endures trials, because when he passes the test he will receive the crown of life that He has promised to those who love Him.
13 No one undergoing a trial should say, "I am being tempted by God." For God is not tempted by evil, and He Himself doesn't tempt anyone. 14 But each person is tempted when he is drawn away and enticed by his own evil desires. 15 Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death. 16 Don't be deceived, my dearly loved brothers. 17 Every generous act and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights; with Him there is no variation or shadow cast by turning. 18 By His own choice, He gave us a new birth by the message of truth so that we would be the firstfruits of His creatures.
God does not tempt us--it is when we are carried away by sin--but in these trials--we learn about our sin--we learn NOT to sin! We are being refined--.
Hebrews 12:10 For they disciplined us for a short time based on what seemed good to them, but He does it for our benefit, so that we can share His holiness.
A Christians life is often a real struggle between flesh and God--But, HIS refining work transforms us from sin to Godliness. That is when you see transformation in a person. When God is at work.
Remember whom God chooses--James 2:55 Listen, my dear brothers: Didn't God choose the poor in this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that He has promised to those who love Him?
If I know I am a sinner--I will not judge those who sin--why would I?? I am a sinner. I offer the Lord and His gift of salvation to those seeking--It has nothing to do with me--or my goodness-just the opposite. Really - Truly--the opposite. I know I have sinned!! I know we ALL sin.
I don't think the Holy Spirit is in everyone--that runs contrary to scripture and would make Jesus' death and ressurection pointless. The Holy Spirit is sent to convict and then comfort, He testifies of God. That is His ministry--
John 15:26 26 When the Counselor comes, the One I will send to you from the Father —the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father—He will testify about Me.
John 14:26 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit &md;the Father will send Him in My name&md;will teach you all things and remind you of everything I have told you.
It doesn't appear to be all inclusive--
John14:17 He is the Spirit of truth. The world is unable to receive Him because it doesn't see Him or know Him. But you do know Him, because He remains with you and will be in you.
If Jesus is not the only way to God--to heaven-- He lied, and there is no point in believing on Him--He had to lead a sinless life.
BTW-- We don't glory or boast in transformation--it is His work--when we pray--we remember He does a good work in us--He can have faith in His OWN good work. He created this transformation in us--so we are grateful and joyous!
If there is no transformation--time to ask for saving faith!
Obedience, out of Love for God also transforms us--His Love transforms us--His grace does--it is All His work. I am a pathetic sinner--I need ALL the help I can get. I boast in Him and Glory in the cross!
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Spoudazo
cman- I wish I really knew where you were coming from. From what I can gather, you like the Bible. But do you base your entire worldview on it?
Can you honestly say your belief in God, ultimate reality, knowledge, ethics and human nature is based on it?
Your questions about what makes the difference in becoming a Christian I hope is an honest one. If I can pick up on geisha's post , let me add the following:
The irony lies in that a true Christian recognizes first and foremost that he NEEDS a Savior. A non Christian has no such desire. Yet it is the work of the Holy Spirit that convicts, or in reality, CONVINCES a person they are in need.
You don't really get it unless you admit you don't have it
A Christian can also be recognized by the characeristics in Matthew 5- a broken spirt, true hunger and a repentant heart.
If you are looking for a more moral lifestyle, you may find pagans with that. It is no secret that the Christian divorce rate is just as bad as non-Christian.
There is no phone booth we can step into and change into our Super-Christian outfit, instead the world should recognize us as people who readily admit they sin, need God's grace, goodness and favor in their lives, but there must be an outward reflection of Jesus in day to day living, or it is not genuine. He is the only one able to really transform us.
May I add that a true Chrisian has a hunger for the knowledge of God- they feed on His Word, because everyday they are seeing they are not better than anyone else- in fact, just the opposite- they see their need for Him to save them
You are right, people can change their habits and act nicer, but the saving work of Christ is from the inside out- The admission of Paul- I know that in my flesh dwelleth no good thing
God perfects, we cannot perfect ourselves. We are a truly needy people
I think we can admit that we spend our lives trying and trying to act good enough for God to like us, but He saved us while we were yet His enemies.
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cman
Geisha,
I don't understand this reasoning.
It's the spirit of truth that the scripture refers to.
Spoudazo, and Geisha,
If one is to convinced of sin.
or righteosness.
or the Lord Jesus Christ,
and brought to the place of seeing it.
Then how is this done?
By the spirit or something else?
If it's by the spirit it would have to be there already.
Then one could make a decision.
Sunesis,
Thanks for your input.
There is a lot in your post that is very real.
Decisions and action.
Both on the part of the person and the spirit.
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geisha779
Cman
Not trying to be obtuse--I don't understand your confusion. I am not saying you don't have a point. I just don't quite get what you are saying. How is any of this a problem? Could be me not hearing you, but I am interested in what you see--that I don't.
Geisha
Are you refering to freewill?
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cman
No, I'm not referring to freewill.
Jesus is not the same as the spirit of truth.
And are the things that were mentioned being done by the person, the flesh,or the spirit.
As quoted, it's the spirit that does the revealing of these truths.
Yet you seem to be saying that these things happen before 'accepting the Lord'.
And at the same time saying that there is no spirit till you do.
note-Please refer to the posts from you and Spoudazo.
With all due respect to both of you and each of you being unique.
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brideofjc
The fact remains that the use of the term Christian was first used in Antioch to denote those that were following the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. The essence of the NAME is that they are FOLLOWING THE TEACHINGS of the LORD JEUS CHRIST. It is not JUST A NAME to denote that perhaps you actually go to some type of church and function as a PEW POTATO. The Lord Jesus said quite clearly and concisely that you would know HIS followers by their fruit that they produced in their lives. Not that anyone is perfect, but there should be a consistent pattern of growth, even as a tree continues to grow.
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geisha779
Hi cman
I don't think they are the same thing--not interchangeable.I don't think I said that? I am really -- honestly---trying to follow you. You have to cut me some slack--I am a blonde.
If you tell me who you think the Holy Spirit is--it will help me greatly to understand where you are coming from. It may make your response click with me.
:)
We are body--soul or if you like, spirit creatures. I think we agree on that? Or maybe not? There are a couple schools of thought on this--trichotomous-dichotomous,
I am not sure where you land.
I am not sure it is all that important which way we think on this--meaning it doesn't really impact our salvation. But, interesting all the same.
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cman
The Holy Spirit is a seed Geisha.
Figuratively or Allegorically it is still real.
In the Lord's timing, the Lord's day will happen within each of us.
And continue.
There is no escape from that which is in us.
When a seed starts growing it will break the crust of the earth.
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geisha779
Thanks for telling me what you believe cman. I dare say we believe entirely differing things. Just curious what you base this understanding on--but its okay if you don't want to answer.
Just an aside--if this is the case, when does someone like Hitler--or Stalin have their breakthrough?
Is God a man that He should lie when He says. . . . . . .
Hebrews 10:29 How much worse punishment, do you think one will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God, regarded as profane the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know the One who has said, Vengeance belongs to Me, I will repay, and again, The Lord will judge His people. 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God!
There is more than one way to insult grace cman--just think about that for a moment--these are difficult verses to come to, but If God is worthy ---and He is---He is Just--That is part of the greatness and wisdom of God--Part of His love--a higher love than man's love. And. . . . . He is no respecter of person.
Either way--thanks for the answer! :)
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cman
You'll get to see for your self what becomes of people like you mentioned.
I could try but it wouldn't work. Unless I'm speaking by the Spirit of God and then that same God works in you and shows you the answer. Which may not be what I said but when the spirit moves we can't tell it where to go.
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cman
Since no one wants to answer most of my questions, yet I am questioned and answer most of them.
Just what is the Vengeance that belongs to "me", as it says in that verse?
What is the repay, and again?
If you don't know, why do you say that it would be one thing or another?
How about you Spoudazo?
You make assumptions about me and what I think and believe.
Why are you trying to figure that out?
Or 'where I'm coming from'.
I'm coming from right here right now.
Where else would I be?
Jumpiong to conclusions is usually a mistake.
Try looking for good instead of evil.
It seems that is what you are doing with what I say.
Regardless of whether you believe me or not.
My intentions are probably not what you think.
Nor will you figure it out by my words,
or a short glance at them.
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geisha779
Hi cman,
I would like to answer you from my heart if I might. I would love to have a dialogue with you. I respect you as a person, and although we don't always see
eye to eye, I believe you have a kind heart.
Here is my problem, and this is the naked truth. I do not understand your posts or what you are trying to say--enough to converse with you.
I am sure it is me--and my lack of understanding--so, it is in NO way a derogatory implication. I cannot follow what you are trying to express.
Christianity is a common faith. It is a family united around one person--Jesus. When a faith is so far removed from what I know--it is hard for me to really
understand ---When Jesus is unrecognizable to me--from anothers perspective--I cannot relate on a meaningful level in common faith.
I actually do not get what you are saying. But, I read it and I think about it--I in no way want to ever be rude to you.
Hope you see my dilemma.
Geisha
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