You seem to be criticizing those who ask God for things when they pray, as if we are using God like a tool to get what we want. Gee what a miserable disgusting way to look at it. Jesus didn't look at it that way and said "when ye pray believe that ye receive them and ye shall have them". Jesus told us "ask and ye shall receive" and that this kind of prayer was available and not evil to ask God for things.
TWI does not believe that Christians are the bride of Christ. Twi believes all Christians are the body of Christ. (Romans 12:5; I Cor. 12:12, 27; Eph 4:12).
I suppose that if your relationship with God is ONLY "Gimme, gimme, gimme," then you have a problem. As Oldies points out, there's nothing wrong with going to your Father for something He has to give you. On the other hand, do you praise Him. love Him, glorify Him? Those ALSO have to be part of the equation.
I suppose that if your relationship with God is ONLY "Gimme, gimme, gimme," then you have a problem. As Oldies points out, there's nothing wrong with going to your Father for something He has to give you. On the other hand, do you praise Him. love Him, glorify Him? Those ALSO have to be part of the equation.
George
Well no, there is nothing wrong with going to God for things that you need, but any petition must be done to God in a spirit of humility. The Law of Believing sets in mind that the believer has the power to change God's will by belief that one will get 'X'. It is arrogant to assume that we, mere human mortals, can say to an eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God: "This will happen in my life, and You will make it happen as a result of my faith." Now, of course, people don't use exactly these words, or an equivalent, but this self-centered ideology that Christianity is about material prosperity inherently denies the relationship that God wants us to have with Him. Just as He puts humanity before everything else, so believers need to put Him before everything else, even their own lives. What TWI and it's splinter groups don't realize is that Christianity is a sacrifice, a struggle--and so is marriage.
The Law of Believing sets in mind that the believer has the power to change God's will by belief that one will get 'X'.
That is totally inaccurate.
The law of believing as taught by VPW: "In order to receive anything from God, the first thing one must know is "what is available". How does one know what is available? "Find out from the Word what is available".
So, if something is available from the Word, it is within God's will. There was no power or intention to have anything other than what God wants his children to have, or to change God's will with the law of believing, since it was based on "what is available" from the bible.
Well no, there is nothing wrong with going to God for things that you need, but any petition must be done to God in a spirit of humility. The Law of Believing sets in mind that the believer has the power to change God's will by belief that one will get 'X'. It is arrogant to assume that we, mere human mortals, can say to an eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God: "This will happen in my life, and You will make it happen as a result of my faith." Now, of course, people don't use exactly these words, or an equivalent, but this self-centered ideology that Christianity is about material prosperity inherently denies the relationship that God wants us to have with Him. Just as He puts humanity before everything else, so believers need to put Him before everything else, even their own lives. What TWI and it's splinter groups don't realize is that Christianity is a sacrifice, a struggle--and so is marriage.
Does God's will say I cannot have what I am praying for? Knowing what is available is 95% of the "equation." As God's children (I've never seen the term "mere mortal" used in the word) we should be able to ask our Father for what is available and expect or believe He will deliver. Also, the phrase "I'll do my best, God will do the rest" fits very well here. When you pray and believe for something to come to pass you must take actions in the physical realm that will enable the results intended.
That is totally inaccurate. In order to receive anything from God, the first thing one must know is "what is available". How does one know what is available? "Find out from the Word what is available". So if something is available from the Word, it is within God's will. So, there was never any power to change God's will with the law of believing, as taught by VPW.
Okay oldiesman.
Let's say "the Word" (is the Word the Bible, is it Christ...? "The Word" is a very vague term) tells me that a new building for a church is available for the taking. But then another believer doesn't agree, he doesn't see that in the Word. Anyone could say they saw something revealed in the Word, and claim it to be God's will. It's completely subjective. Within TWI's distraught history, you can clearly see how this could be used by leadership to control believers into thinking that they knew the will of God for believers' lives.
Does God's will say I cannot have what I am praying for? Knowing what is available is 95% of the "equation." As God's children (I've never seen the term "mere mortal" used in the word) we should be able to ask our Father for what is available and expect or believe He will deliver. Also, the phrase "I'll do my best, God will do the rest" fits very well here. When you pray and believe for something to come to pass you must take actions in the physical realm that will enable the results intended.
No one said we can't have what we are praying for, but we shouldn't arrogantly expect to get what we want or are asking for. Again, we don't have control over God's will. If He chooses to do things differently than what we wished or believed, then so be it. His will should take precedence over ours.
Another thing I would like to point out: the Law of Believing calls for the believer to have material prosperity, in the belief that this prosperity comes from God. This is no different than what many charismatic and Pentecostal groups, and Joel Osteen, preach: that God wants you to be rich! While this is nice, it's just not biblical. It's like...Christianity Lite. In three of the Gospels, Jesus warns that each of His disciples may have to "deny himself" and even "take up his cross." In support of this alarming prediction, He forcefully contrasts the fleeting pleasures of today with the promise of eternity: "For what profit is it to a man," He asks, "if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" It is one of the New Testament's hardest teachings, yet generations of churchgoers have understood that being Christian, on some level, means being ready to sacrifice--money, autonomy or even their lives. How do Jesus' words not flatly contradict the Law of Believing? And what of the millions of monks and nuns who have renounced the world to seek after God? Are they seeking after their material desires? Hardly.
Let's say "the Word" (is the Word the Bible, is it Christ...? "The Word" is a very vague term) tells me that a new building for a church is available for the taking. But then another believer doesn't agree, he doesn't see that in the Word. Anyone could say they saw something revealed in the Word, and claim it to be God's will. It's completely subjective. Within TWI's distraught history, you can clearly see how this could be used by leadership to control believers into thinking that they knew the will of God for believers' lives.
A new church building wouldn't be in the Word. VPW was talking about the promises of God.. that is the context in which "the law of believing" was taught and it is in that light that it must be understood, otherwise you will be mistaken.
Let's say "the Word" (is the Word the Bible, is it Christ...? "The Word" is a very vague term) tells me that a new building for a church is available for the taking. But then another believer doesn't agree, he doesn't see that in the Word. Anyone could say they saw something revealed in the Word, and claim it to be God's will. It's completely subjective. Within TWI's distraught history, you can clearly see how this could be used by leadership to control believers into thinking that they knew the will of God for believers' lives.
No one said we can't have what we are praying for, but we shouldn't arrogantly expect to get what we want or are asking for. Again, we don't have control over God's will. If He chooses to do things differently than what we wished or believed, then so be it. His will should take precedence over ours.
Another thing I would like to point out: the Law of Believing calls for the believer to have material prosperity, in the belief that this prosperity comes from God. This is no different than what many charismatic and Pentecostal groups, and Joel Osteen, preach: that God wants you to be rich! While this is nice, it's just not biblical. It's like...Christianity Lite. In three of the Gospels, Jesus warns that each of His disciples may have to "deny himself" and even "take up his cross." In support of this alarming prediction, He forcefully contrasts the fleeting pleasures of today with the promise of eternity: "For what profit is it to a man," He asks, "if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" It is one of the New Testament's hardest teachings, yet generations of churchgoers have understood that being Christian, on some level, means being ready to sacrifice--money, autonomy or even their lives. How do Jesus' words not flatly contradict the Law of Believing? And what of the millions of monks and nuns who have renounced the world to seek after God? Are they seeking after their material desires? Hardly.
I think the problem is looking at expectations as arrogance. Not to get offensive, that's not my intention, but it seems like you're stereotyping all of believing as imposing a persons will over God's. God's going to do what God's going to do. If your prayers line up according to what He is willing and able to do, why wouldn't He provide for you. I think that's the problem in this conversation; one must know what is available and ask and expect. Yes, sacrifices must be made at times but they must be made with a whole heart or they are worthless, it is not through works that we are saved but grace and grace alone. Also, as for monks and nuns, sincerity does not guarantee truth. Seclusion from the world does not help anyone, we should not be of this world but we sure do live in it and have to deal with it on a daily basis in order to survive.
No one said we can't have what we are praying for, but we shouldn't arrogantly expect to get what we want or are asking for. Again, we don't have control over God's will. If He chooses to do things differently than what we wished or believed, then so be it. His will should take precedence over ours.
That's fine and I agree with you, but why do you keep on assuming that someone who expects a promise of God to come to pass is being arrogant? It may be so, but that would depend on the heart and mindset of the individual person.
I think the problem is looking at expectations as arrogance. Not to get offensive, that's not my intention, but it seems like you're stereotyping all of believing as imposing a persons will over God's. God's going to do what God's going to do. If your prayers line up according to what He is willing and able to do, why wouldn't He provide for you. I think that's the problem in this conversation; one must know what is available and ask and expect. Yes, sacrifices must be made at times but they must be made with a whole heart or they are worthless, it is not through works that we are saved but grace and grace alone. Also, as for monks and nuns, sincerity does not guarantee truth. Seclusion from the world does not help anyone, we should not be of this world but we sure do live in it and have to deal with it on a daily basis in order to survive.
Well if our prayers happen to line up with God's desires, then all is good and well. But often times, they don't. In fact much of the time things happen that are completely not what we expected from Him, but we are thankful anyway because He has helped us. He's so much larger than we are, and we are so small. For one to blatantly declare that he has knowledge of the ways of God is, in a sense, quite arrogant.
"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!" (Rom. 11:33)
A new church building wouldn't be in the Word. VPW was talking about the promises of God.. that is the context in which "the law of believing" was taught and it is in that light that it must be understood, otherwise you will be mistaken.
On the contrary, a new church building WOULD be in the Word.
Remember the "blank check" promises that twi used to even make out as actual checks we could write out to God? God says He will supply all our need and we need a new building. This is appropriate twi belief as of a mere 3 years ago.
All I know is that I ended up not having a real relationship with God after my 20 plus years in. I THOUGHT I did. But, boy was I wrong! I was good at asking for what I wanted, but neglected just enjoying being with my Father. And praising Him? That was none existant. All I had was twi songs about how strong and powerful I was when I renewed my mind!
I look back and feel that I was acting like a spoiled brat and I am so thankful now that God was patient, loving and compassionate towards me.
Well if our prayers happen to line up with God's desires, then all is good and well. But often times, they don't. In fact much of the time things happen that are completely not what we expected from Him, but we are thankful anyway because He has helped us. He's so much larger than we are, and we are so small. For one to blatantly declare that he has knowledge of the ways of God is, in a sense, quite arrogant.
"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!" (Rom. 11:33)
Your idea of God seems to be very transcendent, which would fit the idea that NOTHING could be known of God since we are merely human beings (which would follow after Islam), but so much is revealed in the word about God and his love for man.
"And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments" (1 John 2:3)
Your idea of God seems to be very transcendent, which would fit the idea that NOTHING could be known of God since we are merely human beings (which would follow after Islam), but so much is revealed in the word about God and his love for man.
"And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments" (1 John 2:3)
My idea of God is quite transcendent in some ways, but I do agree with you that we can know God and can have a relationship with Him, we know that He loves us and that He wants the best for humanity and wants us to keep His commandments. But to claim that you know what His will is for your personal life, to claim that He wants you to be rich, to have that new car, to have a new church building, etc...that is what we cannot know, and that is what the Law of Believing stresses: material prosperity.
My idea of God is quite transcendent in some ways, but I do agree with you that we can know God and can have a relationship with Him, we know that He loves us and that He wants the best for humanity and wants us to keep His commandments. But to claim that you know what His will is for your personal life, to claim that He wants you to be rich, to have that new car, to have a new church building, etc...that is what we cannot know, and that is what the Law of Believing stresses: material prosperity.
Well, we do have freedom of will and God was very specific in giving it to us. We are not predestined to anything. God knows what is going to happen already but does not decide what you do. Again it all has to do with what is available (wayism).
I'm not particularly good at breaking up a post into several quotes, so I'm going to interject my thoughts here in boldface.
Let's say "the Word" (is the Word the Bible, is it Christ...? "The Word" is a very vague term)
"The Word" is a revelation of God. The Bible (at least as originally given to the prophets and apostles) reveals God. Jesus Christ revealed God's will for men on the senses level. And let me interject here that the only written record of Jesus is in the Bible. (There are a couple of sentences in Josephus, but many scholars conclude that these were added later by Christians, who couldn't understand why Josephus would write about John the Baptist and not Jesus.) I marvel at people who say that they believe in Jesus but not the Bible. If you don't believe the Bible record of him, why believe in him at all?
tells me that a new building for a church is available for the taking. But then another believer doesn't agree, he doesn't see that in the Word. Anyone could say they saw something revealed in the Word, and claim it to be God's will. It's completely subjective.
No, it's not. Although I suppose that one could try to support all his wishes with Scripture, there ARE distinct promises of God for believers, including His supplying ALL our need, through Christ Jesus, according to His riches. He states that whatsoever we ask according to His will, he hears us, and we have those things which we ask. He says we are to come BOLDLY before the throne of grace. This is not arrogance, just the confidence we have in the love of our Father.
Within TWI's distraught history, you can clearly see how this could be used by leadership to control believers into thinking that they knew the will of God for believers' lives.
I will allow that leaders could convince a believer that he has a right to something that God does not truly promise, but that in no way negates a believer's right to ask with confidence for something that God DOES promise.
No one said we can't have what we are praying for, but we shouldn't arrogantly expect to get what we want or are asking for. Again, we don't have control over God's will. If He chooses to do things differently than what we wished or believed, then so be it. His will should take precedence over ours.
Again, do not confuse confidence with arrogance. HOW God chooses to fulfill His promises is His business, but expecting Him to fulfill them is our business.
Another thing I would like to point out: the Law of Believing calls for the believer to have material prosperity, in the belief that this prosperity comes from God. This is no different than what many charismatic and Pentecostal groups, and Joel Osteen, preach: that God wants you to be rich! While this is nice, it's just not biblical. It's like...Christianity Lite. In three of the Gospels, Jesus warns that each of His disciples may have to "deny himself" and even "take up his cross." In support of this alarming prediction, He forcefully contrasts the fleeting pleasures of today with the promise of eternity: "For what profit is it to a man," He asks, "if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" It is one of the New Testament's hardest teachings, yet generations of churchgoers have understood that being Christian, on some level, means being ready to sacrifice--money, autonomy or even their lives. How do Jesus' words not flatly contradict the Law of Believing? And what of the millions of monks and nuns who have renounced the world to seek after God? Are they seeking after their material desires? Hardly.
There are several points to address here.
First, "The Law of Believing," as taught in PFAL, is out-of-bounds. The idea that WHATEVER we believe will come to pass has no Biblical basis. God DOES say that we can expect to receive, by believing prayer, what He has promised (Jesus's words state this, not contradict this); but there is no guarantee that believing wrongly will cause ill to come to pass. Satan is not bound to honor our fears, although he can use fear to get to us, as he did to Job.
Second, it's "The Secret" that teaches that we bring things to pass by our belief. In that theology, we shape the world, making ourselves gods (and not particularly bright ones, at that). There are similarities with PFAL, but at least PFAL taught that we had to know God's will, not make up our own.
Third, God warns us not to be desirous of worldly riches. I'm probably better-to-do than many people, and I'm thankful for the abundance I have; but having sufficient food and raiment (including a home) and health are all I can really expect from God. (And I do expect them.)
But to claim that you know what His will is for your personal life, to claim that He wants you to be rich, to have that new car, to have a new church building, etc...that is what we cannot know, and that is what the Law of Believing stresses: material prosperity.
Material prosperity is just part of believing=receiving. Part of it is a disregard for natural laws while expecting supernatural results. For example: one family I know struggled with the idea of fastening the children into child restraints because to do so would not be "believing" for God's protection. Becoming pregnant/or not when you were "believing" was also part of the "law of believing". Smoking and "believing" for healthy lungs.
The prosperity thing entered with getting "needs and wants parallel".
You obviously haven't been to a big TWI get together or you would know that new church buildings don't get built, TWI people rarely have new cars, and I met no one who got rich being in TWI, but I saw more than a few walk away from jobs that provided prosperity to be in the corps.
"The Word" is a revelation of God. The Bible (at least as originally given to the prophets and apostles) reveals God. Jesus Christ revealed God's will for men on the senses level. And let me interject here that the only written record of Jesus is in the Bible. (There are a couple of sentences in Josephus, but many scholars conclude that these were added later by Christians, who couldn't understand why Josephus would write about John the Baptist and not Jesus.) I marvel at people who say that they believe in Jesus but not the Bible. If you don't believe the Bible record of him, why believe in him at all?
Thank you for clarifying. :)
No, it's not. Although I suppose that one could try to support all his wishes with Scripture, there ARE distinct promises of God for believers, including His supplying ALL our need, through Christ Jesus, according to His riches. He states that whatsoever we ask according to His will, he hears us, and we have those things which we ask. He says we are to come BOLDLY before the throne of grace. This is not arrogance, just the confidence we have in the love of our Father.
"Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need." (Heb. 4:14-16)
Yes, we should have a faith and confidence that He will help us in our time of need. Well-stated, I agree that we should boldly come to our merciful Lord and High Priest in times of need. What I have read of the Law of Believing, however, is that it applies not just to what one needs but also to whatever one might want in life.
Again, do not confuse confidence with arrogance. HOW God chooses to fulfill His promises is His business, but expecting Him to fulfill them is our business.
God is faithful to His promises, and we should expect Him to fulfill His promises to help us in this life. But again, this is not what I have read of TWI's belief regarding "expecting" God to fulfill His promises. From what I have read, TWI thought appears to use the word "expect" in a conditional sense. It's as if one were saying to God, "If you scratch my back I'll scratch yours."
First, "The Law of Believing," as taught in PFAL, is out-of-bounds. The idea that WHATEVER we believe will come to pass has no Biblical basis. God DOES say that we can expect to receive, by believing prayer, what He has promised (Jesus's words state this, not contradict this); but there is no guarantee that believing wrongly will cause ill to come to pass. Satan is not bound to honor our fears, although he can use fear to get to us, as he did to Job.
Second, it's "The Secret" that teaches that we bring things to pass by our belief. In that theology, we shape the world, making ourselves gods (and not particularly bright ones, at that). There are similarities with PFAL, but at least PFAL taught that we had to know God's will, not make up our own.
Third, God warns us not to be desirous of worldly riches. I'm probably better-to-do than many people, and I'm thankful for the abundance I have; but having sufficient food and raiment (including a home) and health are all I can really expect from God. (And I do expect them.)
1. I agree, it is very out-of-bounds.
2. Actually George, in VPW's own book, The Bible Tells Me So, he states, and I quote: "our lives are molded by our believing...This law is further explained and proved in "The Law of Believing" so that we will become aware of our own thinking and then be able to control our thinking so as to manifest the abundant life which is promised in God's Word."
According to Wierwille, it is up to the believer to manifest a life of abundance and prosperity in his own life. This is no different than The Secret. Sure, you may have to know God's will, but it's still all on you. It's entirely dependent upon your own works and not at all on faith in the grace of God.
2. Actually George, in VPW's own book, The Bible Tells Me So, he states, and I quote: "our lives are molded by our believing...This law is further explained and proved in "The Law of Believing" so that we will become aware of our own thinking and then be able to control our thinking so as to manifest the abundant life which is promised in God's Word."
According to Wierwille, it is up to the believer to manifest a life of abundance and prosperity in his own life. This is no different than The Secret. Sure, you may have to know God's will, but it's still all on you. It's entirely dependent upon your own works and not at all on faith in the grace of God.
At the risk of sounding like a "Wierwille apologist," I contend that in a very real way our live ARE molded by our believing, in the sense that what one believes determines how he will act. (Not having a "Blue Book" on hand, I'm only responding to the quotation you gave, not the whole context.) As James puts it, "Faith without works is dead." We demonstrate in our lives what we believe (our faith) by how we act (our works). So, it IS important to control our thinking to believe God's promises. Only then will we act accordingly, and see the promises come to fruition. This does NOT mean, however, that my believing controls the world around me.
At the risk of sounding like a "Wierwille apologist," I contend that in a very real way our live ARE molded by our believing, in the sense that what one believes determines how he will act. (Not having a "Blue Book" on hand, I'm only responding to the quotation you gave, not the whole context.) As James puts it, "Faith without works is dead." We demonstrate in our lives what we believe (our faith) by how we act (our works). So, it IS important to control our thinking to believe God's promises. Only then will we act accordingly, and see the promises come to fruition. This does NOT mean, however, that my believing controls the world around me.
George
Well yes, that is true, morals and beliefs determine how one will act in the world. That's an axiom in psychology and sociology. And again, I agree that "faith without works is dead," as St. James puts it. This refers not necessarily to God's promises per se, but it is a refutation of a mere intellectual belief, or head-knowledge. If you truly believe in Christ, in His teachings, in His life, miracles, death, resurrection--in Christianity, then that will reflect how you live your life and whether you truly do strive to be as Christ-like as possible.
But God's promises that we will persevere through trials, and St. Paul's admonition that we are "more than conquerors" through Christ (Rom. 8:37)...these just come as a part of living out one's faith. Wierwille, in my humble opinion, focused too much on God's promises for our lives (some of which TWI simply made up) and on positive thinking, that he forgot what comes before confidence: healing the damaged soul, and he tried to take the place of the One who heals us: Christ. He put the cart before the horse.
Thank you for your wonderful post. You are speaking of Christianity here. A personal, intimate love relationship with the Lord Jesus. One where we desire Him above all else?
Things like being broken, suffering, picking up your cross, and holiness were not really big in TWI from what I can remember. We were more than conquerors. Having done all. . .STAND!!
We had the language down pretty good, but it meant something very different. I was in it and I can't even explain it.
But TWI and the faith you articulate are two different things. You are speaking of two entirely different things.
Being broken, and emptied--to be filled. Hmmm. Having faith in Him--not only because the word says so--but because He has revealed Himself--?? We know Him personally.
Obeying not because we believe the word only, but because we know Him intimately, deeply trust and love Him above all else. We seek to please Him.
Panting as a deer after Him--not a knowledge of Him. . . But Him.
Hard to put my finger on, but the difference for me now is. . .
Christianity is the person of Jesus Christ--not the words about Him. It is actually Him.
BTW TWI did teach something about practicing the presence of God--staying your mind--entirely different than the divine presence you speak of--the one that drops you to your knees with words of praise or silent tears of awe.
Christianity is very much about relationship with Jesus Christ. The branches are connected to the Vine. Jesus says he's the good shepherd, and his sheep (not other sheep) hear his voice and follow. We are children, God is our Father. Christ is the husband, we are the wife, as Ephesians 5 and other passages describe.
These are close, loving, personal relationships, esp the ones on children, wife, and sheep.
WAP and PFAL deftly shifted the focus from a relationship with Jesus Christ (the personal Word) to knowledge of the written word. The new WAP class briefly says that Jesus is the center. But then it contradicts itself by totally avoiding describing His nature, work, relationship with us today, etc. Instead, it suddenly launches into talking about the written word.
TWI promotes a relationship with the Bible, but not with the One to whom the Bible points, nor to a relationship with Him. It emphasizes impersonal "Laws" for people to manipulate instead.
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cheranne
nevermind
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oldiesman
You seem to be criticizing those who ask God for things when they pray, as if we are using God like a tool to get what we want. Gee what a miserable disgusting way to look at it. Jesus didn't look at it that way and said "when ye pray believe that ye receive them and ye shall have them". Jesus told us "ask and ye shall receive" and that this kind of prayer was available and not evil to ask God for things.
TWI does not believe that Christians are the bride of Christ. Twi believes all Christians are the body of Christ. (Romans 12:5; I Cor. 12:12, 27; Eph 4:12).
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GeorgeStGeorge
I suppose that if your relationship with God is ONLY "Gimme, gimme, gimme," then you have a problem. As Oldies points out, there's nothing wrong with going to your Father for something He has to give you. On the other hand, do you praise Him. love Him, glorify Him? Those ALSO have to be part of the equation.
George
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Brushstroke
Well no, there is nothing wrong with going to God for things that you need, but any petition must be done to God in a spirit of humility. The Law of Believing sets in mind that the believer has the power to change God's will by belief that one will get 'X'. It is arrogant to assume that we, mere human mortals, can say to an eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God: "This will happen in my life, and You will make it happen as a result of my faith." Now, of course, people don't use exactly these words, or an equivalent, but this self-centered ideology that Christianity is about material prosperity inherently denies the relationship that God wants us to have with Him. Just as He puts humanity before everything else, so believers need to put Him before everything else, even their own lives. What TWI and it's splinter groups don't realize is that Christianity is a sacrifice, a struggle--and so is marriage.
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oldiesman
That is totally inaccurate.
The law of believing as taught by VPW: "In order to receive anything from God, the first thing one must know is "what is available". How does one know what is available? "Find out from the Word what is available".
So, if something is available from the Word, it is within God's will. There was no power or intention to have anything other than what God wants his children to have, or to change God's will with the law of believing, since it was based on "what is available" from the bible.
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Romans10910
Does God's will say I cannot have what I am praying for? Knowing what is available is 95% of the "equation." As God's children (I've never seen the term "mere mortal" used in the word) we should be able to ask our Father for what is available and expect or believe He will deliver. Also, the phrase "I'll do my best, God will do the rest" fits very well here. When you pray and believe for something to come to pass you must take actions in the physical realm that will enable the results intended.
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Brushstroke
Okay oldiesman.
Let's say "the Word" (is the Word the Bible, is it Christ...? "The Word" is a very vague term) tells me that a new building for a church is available for the taking. But then another believer doesn't agree, he doesn't see that in the Word. Anyone could say they saw something revealed in the Word, and claim it to be God's will. It's completely subjective. Within TWI's distraught history, you can clearly see how this could be used by leadership to control believers into thinking that they knew the will of God for believers' lives.
No one said we can't have what we are praying for, but we shouldn't arrogantly expect to get what we want or are asking for. Again, we don't have control over God's will. If He chooses to do things differently than what we wished or believed, then so be it. His will should take precedence over ours.
Another thing I would like to point out: the Law of Believing calls for the believer to have material prosperity, in the belief that this prosperity comes from God. This is no different than what many charismatic and Pentecostal groups, and Joel Osteen, preach: that God wants you to be rich! While this is nice, it's just not biblical. It's like...Christianity Lite. In three of the Gospels, Jesus warns that each of His disciples may have to "deny himself" and even "take up his cross." In support of this alarming prediction, He forcefully contrasts the fleeting pleasures of today with the promise of eternity: "For what profit is it to a man," He asks, "if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" It is one of the New Testament's hardest teachings, yet generations of churchgoers have understood that being Christian, on some level, means being ready to sacrifice--money, autonomy or even their lives. How do Jesus' words not flatly contradict the Law of Believing? And what of the millions of monks and nuns who have renounced the world to seek after God? Are they seeking after their material desires? Hardly.
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oldiesman
A new church building wouldn't be in the Word. VPW was talking about the promises of God.. that is the context in which "the law of believing" was taught and it is in that light that it must be understood, otherwise you will be mistaken.
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Romans10910
I think the problem is looking at expectations as arrogance. Not to get offensive, that's not my intention, but it seems like you're stereotyping all of believing as imposing a persons will over God's. God's going to do what God's going to do. If your prayers line up according to what He is willing and able to do, why wouldn't He provide for you. I think that's the problem in this conversation; one must know what is available and ask and expect. Yes, sacrifices must be made at times but they must be made with a whole heart or they are worthless, it is not through works that we are saved but grace and grace alone. Also, as for monks and nuns, sincerity does not guarantee truth. Seclusion from the world does not help anyone, we should not be of this world but we sure do live in it and have to deal with it on a daily basis in order to survive.
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oldiesman
That's fine and I agree with you, but why do you keep on assuming that someone who expects a promise of God to come to pass is being arrogant? It may be so, but that would depend on the heart and mindset of the individual person.
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Brushstroke
Well if our prayers happen to line up with God's desires, then all is good and well. But often times, they don't. In fact much of the time things happen that are completely not what we expected from Him, but we are thankful anyway because He has helped us. He's so much larger than we are, and we are so small. For one to blatantly declare that he has knowledge of the ways of God is, in a sense, quite arrogant.
"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!" (Rom. 11:33)
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penguin
On the contrary, a new church building WOULD be in the Word.
Remember the "blank check" promises that twi used to even make out as actual checks we could write out to God? God says He will supply all our need and we need a new building. This is appropriate twi belief as of a mere 3 years ago.
All I know is that I ended up not having a real relationship with God after my 20 plus years in. I THOUGHT I did. But, boy was I wrong! I was good at asking for what I wanted, but neglected just enjoying being with my Father. And praising Him? That was none existant. All I had was twi songs about how strong and powerful I was when I renewed my mind!
I look back and feel that I was acting like a spoiled brat and I am so thankful now that God was patient, loving and compassionate towards me.
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Romans10910
Your idea of God seems to be very transcendent, which would fit the idea that NOTHING could be known of God since we are merely human beings (which would follow after Islam), but so much is revealed in the word about God and his love for man.
"And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments" (1 John 2:3)
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Brushstroke
My idea of God is quite transcendent in some ways, but I do agree with you that we can know God and can have a relationship with Him, we know that He loves us and that He wants the best for humanity and wants us to keep His commandments. But to claim that you know what His will is for your personal life, to claim that He wants you to be rich, to have that new car, to have a new church building, etc...that is what we cannot know, and that is what the Law of Believing stresses: material prosperity.
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Romans10910
Well, we do have freedom of will and God was very specific in giving it to us. We are not predestined to anything. God knows what is going to happen already but does not decide what you do. Again it all has to do with what is available (wayism).
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GeorgeStGeorge
I'm not particularly good at breaking up a post into several quotes, so I'm going to interject my thoughts here in boldface.
George
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Romans10910
Well stated.
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Tzaia
Material prosperity is just part of believing=receiving. Part of it is a disregard for natural laws while expecting supernatural results. For example: one family I know struggled with the idea of fastening the children into child restraints because to do so would not be "believing" for God's protection. Becoming pregnant/or not when you were "believing" was also part of the "law of believing". Smoking and "believing" for healthy lungs.
The prosperity thing entered with getting "needs and wants parallel".
You obviously haven't been to a big TWI get together or you would know that new church buildings don't get built, TWI people rarely have new cars, and I met no one who got rich being in TWI, but I saw more than a few walk away from jobs that provided prosperity to be in the corps.
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Brushstroke
Thank you for clarifying. :)
"Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need." (Heb. 4:14-16)
Yes, we should have a faith and confidence that He will help us in our time of need. Well-stated, I agree that we should boldly come to our merciful Lord and High Priest in times of need. What I have read of the Law of Believing, however, is that it applies not just to what one needs but also to whatever one might want in life.
God is faithful to His promises, and we should expect Him to fulfill His promises to help us in this life. But again, this is not what I have read of TWI's belief regarding "expecting" God to fulfill His promises. From what I have read, TWI thought appears to use the word "expect" in a conditional sense. It's as if one were saying to God, "If you scratch my back I'll scratch yours."
1. I agree, it is very out-of-bounds.
2. Actually George, in VPW's own book, The Bible Tells Me So, he states, and I quote: "our lives are molded by our believing...This law is further explained and proved in "The Law of Believing" so that we will become aware of our own thinking and then be able to control our thinking so as to manifest the abundant life which is promised in God's Word."
According to Wierwille, it is up to the believer to manifest a life of abundance and prosperity in his own life. This is no different than The Secret. Sure, you may have to know God's will, but it's still all on you. It's entirely dependent upon your own works and not at all on faith in the grace of God.
3. I agree. :)
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GeorgeStGeorge
At the risk of sounding like a "Wierwille apologist," I contend that in a very real way our live ARE molded by our believing, in the sense that what one believes determines how he will act. (Not having a "Blue Book" on hand, I'm only responding to the quotation you gave, not the whole context.) As James puts it, "Faith without works is dead." We demonstrate in our lives what we believe (our faith) by how we act (our works). So, it IS important to control our thinking to believe God's promises. Only then will we act accordingly, and see the promises come to fruition. This does NOT mean, however, that my believing controls the world around me.
George
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excathedra
1 Corinthians 13
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Brushstroke
Well yes, that is true, morals and beliefs determine how one will act in the world. That's an axiom in psychology and sociology. And again, I agree that "faith without works is dead," as St. James puts it. This refers not necessarily to God's promises per se, but it is a refutation of a mere intellectual belief, or head-knowledge. If you truly believe in Christ, in His teachings, in His life, miracles, death, resurrection--in Christianity, then that will reflect how you live your life and whether you truly do strive to be as Christ-like as possible.
But God's promises that we will persevere through trials, and St. Paul's admonition that we are "more than conquerors" through Christ (Rom. 8:37)...these just come as a part of living out one's faith. Wierwille, in my humble opinion, focused too much on God's promises for our lives (some of which TWI simply made up) and on positive thinking, that he forgot what comes before confidence: healing the damaged soul, and he tried to take the place of the One who heals us: Christ. He put the cart before the horse.
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geisha779
Hi Brushstroke,
Thank you for your wonderful post. You are speaking of Christianity here. A personal, intimate love relationship with the Lord Jesus. One where we desire Him above all else?
Things like being broken, suffering, picking up your cross, and holiness were not really big in TWI from what I can remember. We were more than conquerors. Having done all. . .STAND!!
We had the language down pretty good, but it meant something very different. I was in it and I can't even explain it.
But TWI and the faith you articulate are two different things. You are speaking of two entirely different things.
Being broken, and emptied--to be filled. Hmmm. Having faith in Him--not only because the word says so--but because He has revealed Himself--?? We know Him personally.
Obeying not because we believe the word only, but because we know Him intimately, deeply trust and love Him above all else. We seek to please Him.
Panting as a deer after Him--not a knowledge of Him. . . But Him.
Hard to put my finger on, but the difference for me now is. . .
Christianity is the person of Jesus Christ--not the words about Him. It is actually Him.
BTW TWI did teach something about practicing the presence of God--staying your mind--entirely different than the divine presence you speak of--the one that drops you to your knees with words of praise or silent tears of awe.
Again--pretty hard to really explain.
I enjoyed your posts.
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johnj
Christianity is very much about relationship with Jesus Christ. The branches are connected to the Vine. Jesus says he's the good shepherd, and his sheep (not other sheep) hear his voice and follow. We are children, God is our Father. Christ is the husband, we are the wife, as Ephesians 5 and other passages describe.
These are close, loving, personal relationships, esp the ones on children, wife, and sheep.
WAP and PFAL deftly shifted the focus from a relationship with Jesus Christ (the personal Word) to knowledge of the written word. The new WAP class briefly says that Jesus is the center. But then it contradicts itself by totally avoiding describing His nature, work, relationship with us today, etc. Instead, it suddenly launches into talking about the written word.
TWI promotes a relationship with the Bible, but not with the One to whom the Bible points, nor to a relationship with Him. It emphasizes impersonal "Laws" for people to manipulate instead.
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