Witness to Jonestown

[cheranne]

It was said the bodies were so bad by the people that had to clean up Jonestown,that they had to

order snow shovels,because when they'd pick them up they would just fall apart.

So the body bags ,the clean up,all that was yet another trauma for those who had to clean it up.

[cheranne]

Visit the Jonestown Memorial website

(Link takes you outside the Rick A. Ross Institute web site)

Letters from Jonestown

New Career on the Hill For Survivor of Killings

Basketball saved family

Who Died at Jonestown?

Jonestown survivor set to replace US Democratic Rep Lantos

An overdue memorial in Oakland

Jim Jones' grandson tries to rebuild family name

Wall to remember 276 children who died in Jonestown, week of November 15-21

Rob Jones, grandson of People's Temple founder Jim Jones, writing fresh chapter to family history as prized USD recruit

The son who survived Jonestown

BBC interview with Jim Jones Jr, son of cult leader Jim Jones (mp3)

Cult classic

Portrait of infamous cult's rise and fall

Lessons of Jonestown

Jonestown: Low point in American journalism

Two new documentaries revisit Jonestown

Doomsday dream believer

28 years later

No charges filed against son in 1980 murders

Ex-Berkeley man held in family slayings

'Temple' doesn't reveal tragedy's hows and whys

Letter from Tim Stoen

After 30 years, Jim Jones aide seeks forgiveness

Guyana's Foreign Trade Minister Calls On

Opposition To Tell All On Jonestown

Keeping her brother's memory alive

New revelations on Jonestown tragedy

He lived to tell

Brief sojourn to hell still vivid 25 years later

Hell's 25-Year Echo: The Jonestown Mass Suicide

Jones disciple recovers from, recalls painful past

Erin Ryan wants father to be appreciated

Jonestown Massacre Memory Fades in Guyana

Jonestown Tragedy Mourned, 25 Years Later

Jonestown survivor: 'Wrong from every point of view

Jonestown survivors recall fateful day

'Timeline: Road to tragedy in Jonestown

Jonestown massacre - 25 years later

The day they 'stepped across'

Remembering Jonestown Massacre

Former local newspaperman recalls interviews, events

Journalist shot at airstrip says Jones wielded great power

Former People's Temple building is open to possibilities

The Devil and John Walker

What was the lure?

Villagers Recall Jonestown Massacre

Veteran recalls recovery after Jonestown suicides

Jonestown Survivors Remember

Jonestown only the beginning of episodic cult nightmare

Jonestown massacre + 20: Questions linger

Madman in Our Midst: Jim Jones and the California Cover Up

'A cult is like abusive relationships... You are trapped, like a caged animal'

Jonestown's Horror Fades but Mystery Remains

I REMEMBER..November 18, 1978: Of cults and death

Cult's headquarters becomes a church

House of Representitives Report on Jonestown--Findings

The Assassination of Representative Leo J. Ryan and the Jonestown, Guyana Tragedy

Affidavit of Deborah Layton Blakey

Jonestown Suicides Shocked World

The Rise and Fall of Jim Jones

The End To Innocent Acceptance Of Sects

Most Peoples Temple Documents Still Sealed

The power of persuasion

Jonestown Audiotape

Dead followers of

Jim Jones lay before his "throne"

Jerry Brown and Jim Jones

The Rick A. Ross Institute

email: info@rickross.com URL: http://www.rickross.com

[WhiteDove]

Personally, I find the CIA theory to be unbelievable. Any scientific experiment, in order to warrant validation, must follow a regulated protocol. In other words, you can't just toss various poisons to lab rats in some haphazard fashion and expect to draw conclusions that have any real value.

So who said it was haphazard?

To comprehend this well-financed, sinister operation, we must abandon the myth that this was a religious commune and study instead the history that led to its formation. Jonestown was an experiment, part of a 30-year program called MK-ULTRA, the CIA and military intelligence code name for mind control. A close study of Senator Ervin's 1974 report, Individual Rights and the Government's Role in Behavior Modification, shows that these agencies had certain "target populations" in mind, for both individual and mass control. Blacks, women, prisoners, the elderly, the young, and inmates of psychiatric wards were selected as "potentially violent."[There were plans in California at the time for a Center for the Study and Reduction of Violence, expanding on the horrific work of Dr. José Delgado, Drs. Mark and Ervin, and Dr. Jolly West, experts in implantation, psychosurgery, and tranquilizers. The guinea pigs were to be drawn from the ranks of the "target populations," and taken to an isolated military missile base in California.In that same period, Jones began to move his Temple members to Jonestown. The were the exact population selected for such tests.

The meticulous daily notes and drug records kept by Larry Schacht disappeared, but evidence did not. The history of MK-ULTRA and its sister programs (MK-DELTA, ARTICHOKE, BLUEBIRD, etc.) records a combination of drugs, drug mixtures, electroshock and torture as methods for control. The desired results ranged from temporary and permanent amnesia, uninhibited confessions, and creation of second personalities, to programmed assassins and preconditioned suicidal urges. One goal was the ability to control mass populations, especially for cheap labor. Dr. Delgado told Congress that he hoped for a future where a technology would control workers in the field and troops at war with electronic remote signals. He found it hard to understand why people would complain about electrodes implanted in their brains to make them "both happy and productive."

It was said the bodies were so bad by the people that had to clean up Jonestown,that they had to

order snow shovels,because when they'd pick them up they would just fall apart.

So the body bags ,the clean up,all that was yet another trauma for those who had to clean it up.

They also had to poke holes in them at first to keep them from exploding from their own gases, another reason that they would have seen bodies piled on top of each other.

[waysider]

What point are you trying to make, WD?

That The Way was not mind controlling cult?

That the abuses that took place there were OK because they were of a smaller scale?

People died as a direct result of TWI doctrine too, though the death toll was not as high as Jonestown.(AFAIK)

Don't bother to tell me they didn't because I knew two such people personally.

The Way was a dangerous cult. It was not a "religious experience".

Unless you personally spent significant time living in a Way communal setting, such as The Way Corps or Fellow Laborers, you really don't know the full scope of what went on at that level.

Edited November 11, 2008 by waysider

[Rocky]

A CIA experiment is far different than a religous experiance, not even close in comparison.

So, YOUR point is that there was some government conspiracy to get hundreds of people killed?

I looked at your link. Right at the start, it refers to a "socialist" cult. I think that pretty much throws the entire spit load of stuff into the category of unmitigated bulls*it.

[WhiteDove]

What point are you trying to make, WD?

That The Way was not mind controlling cult?

That the abuses that took place there were OK because they were of a smaller scale?

People died as a direct result of TWI doctrine too, though the death toll was not as high as Jonestown.(AFAIK)

Don't bother to tell me they didn't because I knew two such people personally.

The Way was a dangerous cult. It was not a "religious experience".

Unless you personally spent significant time living in a Way communal setting, such as The Way Corps or Fellow Laborers, you really don't know the full scope of what went on at that level.

The point is you are trying to grasp at some parallel between two different things and make them the same. They are not . Jonestown was a drug medicated event people at the way international were not part of some CIA experiment where they were drugged day in and day out. People left of their own choice at times and were also dismissed from the program. Unlike Jonestown where no one left..

[Rocky]

What point are you trying to make, WD?

That The Way was not mind controlling cult?

That the abuses that took place there were OK because they were of a smaller scale?

People died as a direct result of TWI doctrine too, though the death toll was not as high as Jonestown.(AFAIK)

Don't bother to tell me they didn't because I knew two such people personally.

The Way was a dangerous cult. It was not a "religious experience".

Unless you personally spent significant time living in a Way communal setting, such as The Way Corps or Fellow Laborers, you really don't know the full scope of what went on at that level.

Oh, but Waysider... you DO know that WD was SPOUSE corps, don't you?

To comprehend this well-financed, sinister operation, we must abandon the myth that this was a religious commune and study instead the history that led to its formation. Jonestown was an experiment, part of a 30-year program called MK-ULTRA, the CIA and military intelligence code name for mind control. A close study of Senator Ervin's 1974 report, Individual Rights and the Government's Role in Behavior Modification, shows that these agencies had certain "target populations" in mind, for both individual and mass control. Blacks, women, prisoners, the elderly, the young, and inmates of psychiatric wards were selected as "potentially violent."[There were plans in California at the time for a Center for the Study and Reduction of Violence, expanding on the horrific work of Dr. José Delgado, Drs. Mark and Ervin, and Dr. Jolly West, experts in implantation, psychosurgery, and tranquilizers. The guinea pigs were to be drawn from the ranks of the "target populations," and taken to an isolated military missile base in California.In that same period, Jones began to move his Temple members to Jonestown. The were the exact population selected for such tests.

The meticulous daily notes and drug records kept by Larry Schacht disappeared, but evidence did not. The history of MK-ULTRA and its sister programs (MK-DELTA, ARTICHOKE, BLUEBIRD, etc.) records a combination of drugs, drug mixtures, electroshock and torture as methods for control. The desired results ranged from temporary and permanent amnesia, uninhibited confessions, and creation of second personalities, to programmed assassins and preconditioned suicidal urges. One goal was the ability to control mass populations, especially for cheap labor. Dr. Delgado told Congress that he hoped for a future where a technology would control workers in the field and troops at war with electronic remote signals. He found it hard to understand why people would complain about electrodes implanted in their brains to make them "both happy and productive."

You have provided NO reason to ACCEPT the MYTH that Jonestown was a sinister CIA plot (or experiment).

What you've shown is complete bulls*hit.

[RumRunner]

That was, in a twisted way, kinda funny. Twas also a bit of a "blast from the past" That whole Jonestown scene happened my first year in rez and of course we were treated to one of the usual Vic/Craig rants about it. It, of course, was labeled a counterfeit etc. By the end of the year the A/C had a session on the place. Now...in retrospect didn't we have the same conspiracy mentality shoved down our throats? People out for Vic with guns, global conspiracies, etc. etc. etc. Vic was smart enough not to go down the koolaid route as that would have limited his ability to have a new Harley every year along with his fine pimp coach

[WhiteDove]

So, YOUR point is that there was some government conspiracy to get hundreds of people killed?

I looked at your link. Right at the start, it refers to a "socialist" cult. I think that pretty much throws the entire spit load of stuff into the category of unmitigated bulls*it.

You might want to read some of the supporting documents ,some of the peoples articles who were there, listen to the audio of tapes made there before you become an authority as usual on the subject from an opening paragraph.

[WhiteDove]

Today, 30 years later, at least a portion of the Jonestown story has not yet been told. Despite repeated requests by religious scholars under the federal Freedom of Information Act, the government has declined to release all of its investigative files on Jonestown, saying some of the information could jeopardize national security.

Exactly why would it if there was no CIA goverment involvement?

[waysider]

You might want to read some of the supporting documents ,some of the peoples articles who were there, listen to the audio of tapes made there before you become an authority as usual on the subject from an opening paragraph.

Let me see if I understand this.

You weren't at Jonestown ----but you KNOW what happened.

You weren't at HQ-------- but you KNOW what happened.

You weren't at Rome City ------but you KNOW what happened.

You weren't at Emporia -------but you KNOW what happened.

Etc., Etc., Etc.

Now whose presuming to "become an authority"?

[WhiteDove]

Let me see if I understand this.

You weren't at Jonestown ----but you KNOW what happened.

You weren't at HQ-------- but you KNOW what happened.

You weren't at Rome City ------but you KNOW what happened.

You weren't at Emporia -------but you KNOW what happened.

Etc., Etc., Etc.

Now whose presuming to "become an authority"?

I wasn't at the world trade center either but I know what happened. You assume that you need to be some where to be in the know.

[waysider]

I wasn't at the world trade center either but I know what happened. You assume that you need to be some where to be in the know.

Weak analogy.

You are trying to compare a one time event with a daily life style.

[WhiteDove]

Weak analogy.

You are trying to compare a one time event with a daily life style.

Facts are facts one day or a hundred, by the way do you have any to support your theories?

Now whose presuming to "become an authority"?

By the way another of your fabrications. I never claimed to be an authority what I said was there were lots of unanswered questions and presented some research into the subject, complete with references for the claims. Really, making s**t up is not a very convincing argument for you Do you have anything of substance or just talk.

Edited November 11, 2008 by WhiteDove

[Rocky]

You might want to read some of the supporting documents ,some of the peoples articles who were there, listen to the audio of tapes made there before you become an authority as usual on the subject from an opening paragraph.

Not claiming to be an authority. Have listened to people who were there. That content is included in the MSNBC documentary.

However, you have not presented ANYTHING which compels, teases, or motivates me in ANY way to give even the slightest credence to your silly notions.

Therefore, I MIGHT DO NOT WANT to read some of the, or listen to any more of the ... etc., etc., etc.

And Waysider has a very valid point. But you don't.

[now I see]

Right at the start, it refers to a "socialist" cult. I think that pretty much throws the entire spit load of stuff into the category of unmitigated bulls*it.

Um, Rocky, you know I hate to do this, but...I think WD is right...I can't believe I said that! :blink:

Jim Jones did preach socialism and Marxism, was political and taught politically, also approved of communism, went to Cuba to attract converts, was suspected of being atheist, and taught atheistic doctrines, including ones where he called himself God.

Check out what wiki says about them (wiki is not the greatest source but it encapsulates the whole lifespan of Jim Jones and the People's Temple), also, there are also some good reference points and click throughs that supply added evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples_Temple

It is interesting to note that many gov't documents involving Jonestown are still classified even after 25 years and the Freedom of Information Act-they normally would be available-why aren't they despite many requests for them?

I'm not drawing any conclusions here, many sources indicate more than 270 children were underneath the parents, but from viewing aerial photos of the suicide grounds it seems impossible to fit that many underneath those showing.

Lots of unanswered questions.

Here's a link to an interview with Jim Jones' son a few days after the suicides where he identifies their church with socialism.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27052411/

The mystery of who killed or how did the rest of the people die after the initial 409 were reported, is the main point of departure for the conspiracy theorists, for me, there is not enough evidence one way or the other.

Edited November 11, 2008 by now I see

[Rocky]

Um, Rocky, you know I hate to do this, but...I think WD is right...I can't believe I said that! :blink:

Jim Jones did preach socialism and marxism, was political and taught politically, also approved of communism, went to Cuba to attract converts, was suspected of being atheist, and taught atheistic doctrines, including ones where he called himslef God.

Check out what wiki says about them (wiki is not the greatest source but it encapsulates the whole lifespan of Jim Jones and the People's Temple), also, there are also some good reference points and click throughs that supply added evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples_Temple

It is interesting to note that many gov't documents involving Jonestown are still classified even after 25 years and the Freedom of Information Act-they normally would be available-why aren't they despite many requests for them?

I'm not drawing any conclusions here, many sources indicate more than 270 children were underneath the parents, but from viewing aerial photos of the suicide grounds it seems impossible to fit that many underneath those showing.

Lots of unanswered questions.

Here's a link to an interview with Jim Jones' son a few days after the suicides where he identifies their church with socialism.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27052411/

The mystery of who killed or how did the rest of the people die after the initial 409 were reported, is the main point of departure for the conspiracy theorists, for me, there is not enough evidence one way or the other.

It certainly doesn't offend me, or trouble me in any way that you agree with WD. I'm not saying I believe WD MUST BE wrong... I just don't see any reason for me to have any interest in the conspiracy theories revolving around Jonestown.

That Jim Jones talked about socialism and communism doesn't make any difference to me either.

The fact is, Wierwille talked about politics too. And somebody in TWI talked about books like None Dare Call it Conspiracy, the Bilderbergers, the Council of Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission, etc. etc.

Wasn't that stuff a part of the Advanced Class on PLAF?

And frankly, I don't see how it relates to OUR understanding of OUR cult experience to know who killed some of the people that died at Jonestown... that is, UNLESS, the story of Jim Jones telling his followers to drink the poisoned kool-aid is complete fiction. And I don't think it's complete fiction.

But by all means, for anyone who is interested in researching the actual events, the contemporaneous investigative reports from/by law enforcement and/or journalistic agencies is fine with me...

[now I see]

I just agree with WD on this one point, the People's Temple prided itself on being socialistic..it wasn't just talking points, they pursued Socialism as a lifestyle.

Jim Jones taught Socialism as doctrine and that is why going to Jonestown was like going to Eden for the followers.

I disagree with WD on the numbers of children accounted for, and I don't agree with the conspiracy theories...there are unanswered questions though.

The way this stuff relates to us is vpw advocated Jonestown as a CIA coop with sinister ramifications which probably added to his parania about him being watched and twi infiltrated by the FBI, and added weight to his need of armed body guards-mcm*llin and later g*er. It also diffused the relevance and seriousness of Jonestown toward us if we could write it off as some kind of government subversive action. He probably got this information from that cheesy right wing magazine he subscribed to.

Edited November 11, 2008 by now I see

[Rocky]

The way this stuff relates to us is vpw advocated Jonestown as a CIA coop with sinister ramifications which probably added to his paronia about him being watched and twi infiltrated by the FBI, and added weight to his need of armed body guards-mcm*llin and later g*er. It also diffused the relevance and seriousness of Jonestown toward us if we could write it off as some kind of government subversive action. He probably got this information from that cheesy right wing magazine he subscribed to.

That makes sense... and while Wierwille was paranoid to a degree, I don't think it was anything near as bad as Martindale...

[now I see]

Good point.

[WhiteDove]

Not claiming to be an authority. Have listened to people who were there. That content is included in the MSNBC documentary.

However, you have not presented ANYTHING which compels, teases, or motivates me in ANY way to give even the slightest credence to your silly notions.

Therefore, I MIGHT DO NOT WANT to read some of the, or listen to any more of the ... etc., etc., etc.

And Waysider has a very valid point. But you don't.

Fine your choice.

[excathedra]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/11/jonestown.cyanide/

[kimberly]

I plead the Will Rogers.....If you don't listen to news reports then you are uninformed. If you do then you are misinformed.

[Rocky]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/11/jonestown.cyanide/

Not to be outdone by MSNBC, CNN will air a two hour special, "Escape from Jonestown" a few times... the first of which will be 9-11pm Thursday (today already for many readers...).

Thanks for the link, Excie...

[WhiteDove]

Not to be outdone by MSNBC, CNN will air a two hour special, "Escape from Jonestown" a few times... the first of which will be 9-11pm Thursday (today already for many readers...).

Thanks for the link, Excie...

Not to be outdone by either MSNBC or CNN the Sci-Fi Channel has the X Files episode The Temple on right now about yep a revelations suicide cult.