Power for Abundant Living, Way of Abundance and Power

[brainfixed]

i have read a couple of editorials on the front page about doctrinal errors inside of these classes, and i have read many discussions here on the forums concerning these errors, but i haven't read any discussions about the very concept of the titles of these classes, and that doesn't mean the discussions aren't around but it just means i haven't read them. on the good times discussion it was brought up that there seems to be a difference between "old" guard and "new" guard in the way when it comes to "good" or "bad" experiences, and i have read a whole lot about this and it seems a pretty popular perception, but then i have also read many terrible things that happened even as far back as 1973. and on that same discussion i talk about the very concept of "power for abundant living" being the culprit of the beginning of the horrors, but i didn't put it like that, so this all made me think about the actual concept of the classes themselves.

the title of pfal seems to be based on john 10:10 kjv that says "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." (i will use kjv for references because that is what was used in the way.) but in typical way international fashion that verse was honed in on and used abusively while forgetting about the rest of that chapter or even the very next verses that say

"¹¹I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

¹²But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. ¹³The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

¹⁴I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine."

the concept of "power for abundant living" as taught in that class has nothing to do with the good shepherd laying down his life for the sheep, and in fact has everything to do with the hireling that flees at the first sign of trouble and allows the wolf to scatter the sheep because he doesn't care about the sheep. in "power for abundant living" it was taught to get what you can and blame others for their "unbelief" if they don't get theirs. the "abundant living" is not about anything in the rest of john 10, but about individual prosperity, and the "power" is not from "on high" but from knowledge=power, and it is power to get things and to shun people. i have never taken the wap class or even heard of it until i started reading here, but the title of the class says it all to me.

[waysider]

Ironic, isn't it?

The introductory verse of a class declaring the dangers of "private interpretation" was a prime example, in and of itself.

[excathedra]

yup

[excathedra]

and i've been thinking, if god led you out, it doesn't mean he led you in

if he worked in you while you were in, it doesn't mean he liked it

just thinking

[Tzaia]

You got that right.

[excathedra]

"11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

12But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine."

i can't help it, i do love this

[brainfixed]

i can't help it, i do love this

whole different lot of goods than we were sold in the way, isn't it?

[excathedra]

it's all i ever wanted really

[brainfixed]

it's all i ever wanted really

me too.

[excathedra]

thank you hugs

believe it or not, it is still difficult for me to talk about it (after 8 million posts)

when i think of a thief coming to steal, kill and destroy, i think of wierwille

maybe if he had just said, "i want to do you" major disgusting yuck, i would be able to handle it better

but the god thing pfffttt

[Twinky]

The abundant life is spiritual abundance - not necessarily physical abundance.

It is completely against the scriptures to expect only good things to happen. In fact, both in the gospels and the OT there are records of significant BAD things that happened. And not just to people who are low in believing (to use a Way doctrine) but to those who are standing strongly for God. Jesus himself warns that people will have trouble. Didn't he himself have a little trouble from people? Mocked, laughed at, not believed; homeless/no fixed abode; constantly harassed by religious leaders; finally falsely arrested, beaten and murdered? (That's the example of an abundant life :blink: ?) Paul in Acts fame finds himself in serious sh1t more than a few times. Being stoned, or beaten, or chased out of town - isn't exactly abundant living, is it :blink: ?

Yet anything bad that happens to a Way believer is either due to that person's lack of believing, or to a devilish attack. Couldn't possibly be just because that's the way things are. Or worse, one's own lack of preparation or ability... could it?

But couple this with 1 John 3 - I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health - and you have a real problem with "material abundance doctrine."

Prosper is a good old English word meaning "thrive" in the sense of "growing well." Not in the sense of getting rich, which at that time was more an incidental use of the word.

There was power in the prayers of people at an individual level. Certainly I saw answered prayers in the life of the person who witnessed to me; that's what showed me something different from repetitious "churchy" prayers. But the longer one was around, the more the power seemed to be exercised from further up the "Way tree" upon adherents, than a real exercise of God's power.

The power in believers' lives and prayers was more in spite of, than because of, TWI. People learned in PFAL of God's promises and were told they could believe for [whatever] and some did so.

But as one became more involved, that power became subsumed by too much dogma and legalism - one was expected to give glory to TWI for teaching about this wonderful power - rather than give glory to God. In fact, PFAL itself teaches "selfish prayers" like "I want red drapes" not "Your will be done." And so - we "prosper" because God graciously grants us material things that we fancy and we learn to "put God in a box," restrict His Power, and curb his spiritual abundance.

And yet PFAL is the same class that taught: God can only give what he is - his gift of holy spirit.

[T-Bone]

In PFAL, the image of Christ is nothing more than a decoy [or to put biblically - a wolf in sheep's clothing] to lure sheep into the clutches of the wolf.

I think the real Jesus' mission was/is about saving souls and has very little to do with material benefits. I think vp's brand of so called Christianity is a genie-in-the-bottle snake oil gimmick – whatever you want/need in your life, PFAL can provide it... PFAL is not Christ-centered and a "successful" grad becomes more self-centered.

PFAL takes the place of the absent Christ. Christ is absent because he wasn't invited. And the greatest secret in Way-world today is that PFAL is just as good as the Bible. It remains a secret because "successful" grads are so indoctrinated that they can't distinguish between the two.

vp and all the other health & wealth "ministries" have done a remarkable job of morphing Scripture into a sales brochure for their pet doctrines.

[rascal]

and i've been thinking, if god led you out, it doesn't mean he led you in

if he worked in you while you were in, it doesn't mean he liked it

just thinking

That is an amazing statement. I have been pretty mad for a long time.... struggling to figure out how a supposedly loving God could lead me into such an evil situation. ...whew

Wow...all I can say is thanks. This makes so much sense to me.

Edited June 1, 2009 by rascal