We can't ever know, it never happened. It was a cult, where people choose to forfeit their own minds to think, reason and act as another wishes.
Wow, really? We made a conscious choice, to forfeit our own minds? I didn't know that. That is what happens in cults? Reading all that study on the psychology of cultic exploitative persuasion and manipulation. . . . . . and NOW I find out it was a choice to forfeit my mind and reason. . . .
We can't ever know, it never happened. It was a cult, where people choose to forfeit their own minds to think, reason and act as another wishes.
I don't think it was because we forfeited our minds. I think it was because TWI used misleading information to convince us they had a good product. TWI sold it ----We bought it.
Now excuse me while I place my order for a "sham-wowzer".
i keep reading about how many people were told they would be "greasespots by midnight" if they left twi and i keep thinking about how many times i was told "the word" gave parents and husbands the "right" to kill "disobedient" children and wives and i know that taking my chances of being killed by the "adversary" was less dangerous than staying in twi and being killed because of that insanity. there are many kinds of real death and one is that instant death that everybody is afraid of but another is a slow death that kills the soul first and leaves the body with chronic problems that erode the strength and the life. getting beaten all the time may not have killed me but it caused chronic problems that will kill me so what does it matter when i die if i die because of the beatings? when i die it won't be because i left twi and became a "greasespot" because the "adversary" got me, but because i couldn't get out soon enough and twi insanity got me.
Hi Brainfixed,
I have been thinking lately about how peoples' bodies do really show physical consequences from a history of suffering abuse. It can go far beyond thinking patterns and emotional scars. Abuse can lead to actual physical problems and if I'm not mistaken this is one of the things that you are sharing that you are facing. I hope it doesn't end up costing you years of your life but know that for many it really does.
One of the things that I faced in "River Road Fellowship" as led by Victor Barnard was an abusive application of hard verses similar to the one that you bring up. If leadership's (the supposedly "spiritually mature") thinking in terms of handling the harsher scriptures is controlled by someone with narcissistic ar sociopathic tendencies it seems to me that insanity and abuse is about the only likely outcome.
And if the scriptural adage of "judge not lest ye be judged" applies to these type of twisted bastards who wield the harsher scriptures with insane abandon it seems to me that they themselves will have only succeeded in bringing upon themselves the very worst of consequences from the Lord himself.
But as I have shared before, if you and I only manage to agree in condemning the insane and abusive behavior of TWI without managing to agree in our respective beliefs or worldviews, that seems to be just fine here at the GSC.
I think Bolshie and Brainfixed bring up an interesting point, that we who joined as adults did not see.
The children in TWI were terrorized by this stuff..
Children see things very differently than we do as adults, and don't forget they got to see the physical abuse that we may not have seen ourselves.
and even though they are both now adults and out of the way they still see or feel that they were in eminent danger of death.
Now those of us on GS are the ones who walked away.. stood up to the powers that be in some fashion and walked away so we think "I would never do something like that because so and so told me to do it" be it Craigers or VP but I would guess that there are people there who would have done something like this if told to do it.
And dont forget people in crowd situations go along with stuff that on their own they would never ever do.
Raise your hand if you ever sat through some one getting reamed out for no good reason and never stepped in to stop it.
I bet every one here is guilty of at least one of these I know i am and I left early on.
Think of how frightening to see your parents just stand by while some one gets treated like that. OR worse stand by Mute while being told that you (their child was devil possessed)and that you needed to get rid of your child.. to grow up being taught that you as a child were a receptacle for devil spirits and could by your mere presence corrupt your parents or te adult you were with... and the adults believed this stuff.
I shake my head but I remember when they were first coming out with the whole objects possessed by devil spirits crap...and people just bought it with out question and that was in 82..
Bolshie and Brainfixed.. I myself send my deepest apologies... I wish I had never been a part of TWI.. the evilness it wrought in peoples lives is astonishing and for you who were children and completely at the mercy of TWI I am appalled for you. and my heart goes out to you.
I remember having adults in my life as a teenager who I know loved me that caused me to consider that if I did something evil that they'd f'in kill me. For me there has been a proper perspective and place for being a young adult who feared the consequences of becoming really nasty and/or mean.
But in spite of the fatherly analogy that Wierwille used to describe his life and ministry to us, in the end TWI leadership was abusive, hateful, twisted, and far to impressed with themselves and the supposed "spiritual authority" that those fools ended up believing they wielded.
And even though I resisted a lot of what River Road Fellowship tried to cram down my throat I do not feel that I have occasion to boast. When I've done that I most often have found that my words end up falling to the ground just like Peter's words when he said he would stand with the Lord throughout the events of the crucifiction.
Besides, all I need to do is simply recall the many times that I was cowed into assenting to some form of leadership abuse or another when it was directed at someone else. And even if I went along with the abuse because of TWI doctrine or reasoning I think that in my gut I at the very least suspected that it was wrong.
If anything me resisting the stuff that was directed at me wasn't even so much because of any noble virtue, but simple survival.
we knew we were always close to death if we "walked with the adversary" and "disobeyed". our "believing" was "tested" with stunts like holding our heads in the toilet to see if we'd fight or trust our parents "in the lord" to let us up before we died. i don't like talking about this because it's hard to breathe but sometimes i think that people don't get it how bad things were for some of us kids. there were parents that came to the way as alcoholics, druggies, mentally ill "out patients" and even the undiagnosed mentally ill, and all sorts of problems and the way handed these parents a weapon and permission to use it whenever they saw "devil spirits" roaming around and then told these same parents that the "devil spirits" were probably in or because of their children. it is not a big jump from a wooden spoon to a belt to a 2x4 to choking to holding a head in a toilet to holding pillows over the head to shut up crying children to sexual abuse to throwing kids up against a wall and punching them in the face and scalding them with boiling water. and all of it "justified" with "the word". and don't give me that "we knew we weren't under the law" bs because the old testament was always always always "for our learning" and boy oh boy did some of these parents learn a thing or two! and if we weren't under the law why were we required to tithe???? it was all a bunch of bs and the more sense anybody tries to make of it all the more insane it gets. not one escaped that insanity. if anybody thinks they did, they lie to themselves. maybe most people didn't get the insanity to the degree some of us did, but it's already been pointed out that if anybody stood by silently while an injustice was occurring then the insanity was a part of that somebody's life like it or not. and today i have two specific diseases because of the physical abuse i was subjected to and there is nothing that can be done for either one of them except to give me more and more pain medication and monthly shots. as i get older i will more than likely end up in a wheel chair. i also will not be able to have children because of the sexual abuse. getting out of the way didn't stop the way's curses in my life.
I think Bolshie and Brainfixed bring up an interesting point, that we who joined as adults did not see.
The children in TWI were terrorized by this stuff..
Dysfunction is normal in a dysfunctional home.
The problem with TWI is that the kids had no idea who they could trust, so they couldn't tell anyone.
As far as standing by and watching someone mistreat a child. I've never been able to do that. I have intervened on many occasions - not just with TWI people. With TWI people I have taken people aside and told them their expectations for a child of x age were unrealistic. We stopped taking our kids to fellowships because of the unrealistic expectations.
Bolshie and Brainfixed.. I myself send my deepest apologies... I wish I had never been a part of TWI.. the evilness it wrought in peoples lives is astonishing and for you who were children and completely at the mercy of TWI I am appalled for you. and my heart goes out to you.
This isn't really something that can be apologized for since it's something that just happens. Anyone is capable of anything. The death of a cyclops and ousting of the Forehead curtails activities.
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WordWolf
When I was in, it was obvious to everyone I knew that we were no longer under The Law,
we were under Grace.
As such, the worst I would have done to someone who did not break the laws of the land would be
to avoid them, and if they broke the law the worst I'd do is notify local law enforcement.
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Bolshevik
We can't ever know, it never happened. It was a cult, where people choose to forfeit their own minds to think, reason and act as another wishes.
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geisha779
Wow, really? We made a conscious choice, to forfeit our own minds? I didn't know that. That is what happens in cults? Reading all that study on the psychology of cultic exploitative persuasion and manipulation. . . . . . and NOW I find out it was a choice to forfeit my mind and reason. . . .
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waysider
I don't think it was because we forfeited our minds. I think it was because TWI used misleading information to convince us they had a good product. TWI sold it ----We bought it.
Now excuse me while I place my order for a "sham-wowzer".
(If I act now, I get a second one free.)
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JeffSjo
Hi Brainfixed,
I have been thinking lately about how peoples' bodies do really show physical consequences from a history of suffering abuse. It can go far beyond thinking patterns and emotional scars. Abuse can lead to actual physical problems and if I'm not mistaken this is one of the things that you are sharing that you are facing. I hope it doesn't end up costing you years of your life but know that for many it really does.
One of the things that I faced in "River Road Fellowship" as led by Victor Barnard was an abusive application of hard verses similar to the one that you bring up. If leadership's (the supposedly "spiritually mature") thinking in terms of handling the harsher scriptures is controlled by someone with narcissistic ar sociopathic tendencies it seems to me that insanity and abuse is about the only likely outcome.
And if the scriptural adage of "judge not lest ye be judged" applies to these type of twisted bastards who wield the harsher scriptures with insane abandon it seems to me that they themselves will have only succeeded in bringing upon themselves the very worst of consequences from the Lord himself.
But as I have shared before, if you and I only manage to agree in condemning the insane and abusive behavior of TWI without managing to agree in our respective beliefs or worldviews, that seems to be just fine here at the GSC.
(edited for grammar, and a bit added too.)
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leafytwiglet
I think Bolshie and Brainfixed bring up an interesting point, that we who joined as adults did not see.
The children in TWI were terrorized by this stuff..
Children see things very differently than we do as adults, and don't forget they got to see the physical abuse that we may not have seen ourselves.
and even though they are both now adults and out of the way they still see or feel that they were in eminent danger of death.
Now those of us on GS are the ones who walked away.. stood up to the powers that be in some fashion and walked away so we think "I would never do something like that because so and so told me to do it" be it Craigers or VP but I would guess that there are people there who would have done something like this if told to do it.
And dont forget people in crowd situations go along with stuff that on their own they would never ever do.
Raise your hand if you ever sat through some one getting reamed out for no good reason and never stepped in to stop it.
I bet every one here is guilty of at least one of these I know i am and I left early on.
Think of how frightening to see your parents just stand by while some one gets treated like that. OR worse stand by Mute while being told that you (their child was devil possessed)and that you needed to get rid of your child.. to grow up being taught that you as a child were a receptacle for devil spirits and could by your mere presence corrupt your parents or te adult you were with... and the adults believed this stuff.
I shake my head but I remember when they were first coming out with the whole objects possessed by devil spirits crap...and people just bought it with out question and that was in 82..
Bolshie and Brainfixed.. I myself send my deepest apologies... I wish I had never been a part of TWI.. the evilness it wrought in peoples lives is astonishing and for you who were children and completely at the mercy of TWI I am appalled for you. and my heart goes out to you.
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JeffSjo
I remember having adults in my life as a teenager who I know loved me that caused me to consider that if I did something evil that they'd f'in kill me. For me there has been a proper perspective and place for being a young adult who feared the consequences of becoming really nasty and/or mean.
But in spite of the fatherly analogy that Wierwille used to describe his life and ministry to us, in the end TWI leadership was abusive, hateful, twisted, and far to impressed with themselves and the supposed "spiritual authority" that those fools ended up believing they wielded.
And even though I resisted a lot of what River Road Fellowship tried to cram down my throat I do not feel that I have occasion to boast. When I've done that I most often have found that my words end up falling to the ground just like Peter's words when he said he would stand with the Lord throughout the events of the crucifiction.
Besides, all I need to do is simply recall the many times that I was cowed into assenting to some form of leadership abuse or another when it was directed at someone else. And even if I went along with the abuse because of TWI doctrine or reasoning I think that in my gut I at the very least suspected that it was wrong.
If anything me resisting the stuff that was directed at me wasn't even so much because of any noble virtue, but simple survival.
(edited for grammar)
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Bolshevik
twi is dumb
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brainfixed
we knew we were always close to death if we "walked with the adversary" and "disobeyed". our "believing" was "tested" with stunts like holding our heads in the toilet to see if we'd fight or trust our parents "in the lord" to let us up before we died. i don't like talking about this because it's hard to breathe but sometimes i think that people don't get it how bad things were for some of us kids. there were parents that came to the way as alcoholics, druggies, mentally ill "out patients" and even the undiagnosed mentally ill, and all sorts of problems and the way handed these parents a weapon and permission to use it whenever they saw "devil spirits" roaming around and then told these same parents that the "devil spirits" were probably in or because of their children. it is not a big jump from a wooden spoon to a belt to a 2x4 to choking to holding a head in a toilet to holding pillows over the head to shut up crying children to sexual abuse to throwing kids up against a wall and punching them in the face and scalding them with boiling water. and all of it "justified" with "the word". and don't give me that "we knew we weren't under the law" bs because the old testament was always always always "for our learning" and boy oh boy did some of these parents learn a thing or two! and if we weren't under the law why were we required to tithe???? it was all a bunch of bs and the more sense anybody tries to make of it all the more insane it gets. not one escaped that insanity. if anybody thinks they did, they lie to themselves. maybe most people didn't get the insanity to the degree some of us did, but it's already been pointed out that if anybody stood by silently while an injustice was occurring then the insanity was a part of that somebody's life like it or not. and today i have two specific diseases because of the physical abuse i was subjected to and there is nothing that can be done for either one of them except to give me more and more pain medication and monthly shots. as i get older i will more than likely end up in a wheel chair. i also will not be able to have children because of the sexual abuse. getting out of the way didn't stop the way's curses in my life.
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JeffSjo
Dear Brainfixed and Bolshevik,
For whatever it's worth, I am so sorry you and others like you went through this stuff.
I hope that you are able to find the kind of peace, joy, and happiness in this life that makes everything ok, in spite of the abuses.
JEFF
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Tzaia
Dysfunction is normal in a dysfunctional home.
The problem with TWI is that the kids had no idea who they could trust, so they couldn't tell anyone.
As far as standing by and watching someone mistreat a child. I've never been able to do that. I have intervened on many occasions - not just with TWI people. With TWI people I have taken people aside and told them their expectations for a child of x age were unrealistic. We stopped taking our kids to fellowships because of the unrealistic expectations.
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Tzaia
Brainfixed - your situation was horrific. The people who did this to you were nothing more than demented twisted sick f**ks.
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Bolshevik
This isn't really something that can be apologized for since it's something that just happens. Anyone is capable of anything. The death of a cyclops and ousting of the Forehead curtails activities.
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