Don't you think that an angel of God can feel sorrow though?
Rather than "sorrow," I probably should have said "contrition." I think it would have been a bit clearer, so my apologies on that.
As far as whether an angel could feel "sorrow," I am of two minds.
First, I would think that angels would be surrounded by such glory that it might overshadow any grief or mourning that they would have. Take a look at Isiah 6:1-3, Ezekiel 1:22-28, Apocalypse 4.
However, I would think that there would be mourning in heaven for a sinner who is lost. Jesus stated, Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance (Luke 15:7) -- I would think that there would be some variety of grieving when one goes "off the tracks" as well. But I am not 100% sure that it would be something that we, as flesh and blood, would be able to fully appreciate.
Consider this:
Isa 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Jesus was identified as the Lamb of God: Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29)
If we take a look at the exalted position of the Lamb in heaven:
Rev 5:6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth;
Rev 5:7 and he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;
Rev 5:9 and they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
Rev 5:10 and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth."
Rev 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands,
Rev 5:12 saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!"
Rev 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, "To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!"
Rev 5:14 And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped.
One can't help to wonder at their reaction as the Lamb was smitten for our sins. Was it some type of sorrow or mourning or grieving or would it have been some sort of righteous anger? Or just a pause and gasp from the joy? Or something else altogether?
Compare this to the reaction to the martyrs who were calling for vengeance:
Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne;
Rev 6:10 they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"
Rev 6:11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
They were basically told to be patient. A very non-emotional type of response -- one that is very difficult for those of us with blood pumping in our veins to understand. And that's my point: I am not sure we would really be able to understand what spiritual beings "feel." Nor will we be able to understand what we will "feel," once our corruption has put on incorruption.
It's been a while Mark. Nice to see you around again.
It seems to me that when Jezebel was told that dogs would poop her remains out in some field that because of her persistent murdering and other evils she was definitely at the point of being so bad that the question of whether or not God loved her seems moot to me.
Much more so since "the father of lies" end has been foretold many, many times in the scripture.
But since in TWI twisted and insane bastards have taken it upon themselves to deal out themselves what can be only described as a wannabe version of the Lord's vengence that this whole topic may be more than a little touchy for many of us.
But I do believe that even though the devil's end is clear to me, that since Michael himself doesn't throw railing accusations in the devil's direction that we should somehow manage to show similar restraint.
If I wasn't committed to the idea of former TWI leadership turning to live in a healthier mindset than the old ways (so-to-speak) that they learned from Wierwille that I wouldn't do them the courtesy of pointing out that they were twisted and insane bastards at all.
Trust and obey, I am a little confused on the logos and rhema. I think if I have a better understanding of that I might understand what you are saying better. I've heard other preacher's teach (Joyce Meyer, notably) that love is really not a feeling per say, however I know I do feel love, for my mother, my dog even! But I can kind of grasp what you are saying, I just need a better understanding on the logos and rhema.
mark and geisha you both raise more questions than answers for me now, LOL! The scripture presented is something I am reading in my own versions of the bible. This is going to take some time.
Jeff you are right about Michael the archangel, how he even won't rebuke the devil himself, but use the Lord's name instead I believe?
I really appreciate the answers and input here, it's just going to take me a bit to go through all the scripture and try to get some sort of a conclusion, if there is one at all.
geisha you both raise more questions than answers for me now, LOL! The scripture presented is something I am reading in my own versions of the bible. This is going to take some time.
Well, I guess in a way this question you pose should bring up many many questions for you. . . . really good questions because it is all wrapped up in the attributes and nature of God. There is no more greater topic IMHO. Nothing interests me or thrills me more.
The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; Proverbs 8:13
The word hate is used many times in the bible. Maybe someone else can point them all out and tell you what they mean and give you details and analyze it to death to come to a very simple conclusion. . . . . my point is really basic. . . you need to seek God and desire to understand His nature. These questions will be answered in knowing God.
We read that God is love and sometimes stop. . . applying what WE understand about love to God. . . . but His love is greater and more perfect than we sometimes remember. . . .
Because God is love does that mean He does not hate? Don't you yourself hate evil? Is it right for God who is righteous to hate evil? Think about it. . . He would have to, but that would not be wrong. . . it would be right.
Satan? He is not a human being with whom God has a covenant. . .history is already written for him. He has no sacrifice to save Him.
I think it's pretty clear, from a biblical literalist point of view, that's Satan's history, as another poster put it, is written. I can't see any place in the bible, that indicates that one should love Satan. Although I'm sure that someone could probably get that particular hand to fit into that specific glove and come up with some scriptures.
What I don't understand is why Satan or any of his fallen angelic followers cannot be forgiven, other than "because God said so". What is God's reason for making forgiveness unavailable to them? After all, they changed once, didn't they? From the angel of light and whatever the other guys were angels of to The Devil and his demons.
What I don't understand is why Satan or any of his fallen angelic followers cannot be forgiven, other than "because God said so". What is God's reason for making forgiveness unavailable to them? After all, they changed once, didn't they? From the angel of light and whatever the other guys were angels of to The Devil and his demons.
I don't even think it's a matter that they couldn't be forgiven. But do they have the capability of authentically be contrite and repentant?
Forgiveness is contingent upon the sinner being contrite (regretting his actions) and repenting (making a firm resolution to not sin again). If spiritual beings (angels or fallen angels) cannot repent (vice will not repent), then how would it be possible for them to take receipt of forgiveness?
geisha yes, it takes but a cursory glance of the bible to know that God hates evil, you are absolutely right. My point being that it is not the same of hate of a demon itself. Like the kind of hate we can see somewhat expressed through the works of a serial killer, a terorrist, etc. The kind of hate the devil feels towards God.
mark you gave a fair ( and by fair I mean a good evenhanded answer, not a so-so answer :)) answer to Oakspear's question. It's something I wonder myself. If an angel falls if they are capable of being forgiven
I've been told that they are incapable of being contrite as well. That satan could never worship God, he wants to BE God. Then I wonder about the other fallen angels and if any of them knows that they have screwed up big time and are sorry they followed the wrong guy.
I know this sounds stupid, but you would think that if satan knows how the bible says it's going to end for him, that he would try to screw things up by being nice to everyone at the end. LOL! I'm not really joking though, I'm serious. I was told by somebody that maybe he can't help himself. Or perhaps he really thinks he has a chance of winning?
I think the following quote is a competent statement about questions that have arisen in this thread.
(From “Common Grace,” by Cornelius Van Til)
We are not to use the general offer of the gospel as an abstract idea. Schilder holds that, as a general truth, we may say to the anti-Christ or the devil that whosoever believes will be saved. But to make such a statement to the anti-Christ or the devil as though it could involve them personally would be wholly meaningless. The anti-Christ and the devil are historically finished products. They are such as have finally disbelieved. The general gospel offer could make no point of contact with them. The conditional for them has passed. They have finally negated God and have been, or are being, frustrated by God; in their rejection of God they are epistemologically fully self-conscious. God loved the devil when the devil was an unfallen angel; God loved the anti-Christ and offered Him eternal life when he was in Adam; now that they have become the devil and the anti-Christ, God hates them exclusively. The general offer has meaning only with respect to those who are at an earlier stage of history. It has meaning with respect to the elect and the reprobate when they are, and to the extent that they are, members of an as yet undifferentiated generality.
Van Til thus distinguishes between those who are "epistemologically fully self-conscious" "in their rejection of God" and others who have not passed beyond the possibility of redemption. The former have come to be only hated by God, while the latter still reside under a general love God has for his creatures -- a love that God expresses most excellently to them in the general call of the gospel.
I would add, however, that, although it is true that God is loving and merciful to his creatures that have not passed beyond the possibility of redemption, is is also true that God never extended his love to fallen angels or reprobate men in his predestining decrees (see Romans 9:11-16).
Scripture makes reference to elect angels as well as making reference to elect humans.
geisha yes, it takes but a cursory glance of the bible to know that God hates evil, you are absolutely right. My point being that it is not the same of hate of a demon itself. Like the kind of hate we can see somewhat expressed through the works of a serial killer, a terorrist, etc. The kind of hate the devil feels towards God.
Rottiegirl,
No, sincere questions are not silly when you are seeking to know God.
I don't know why I keep saying the same thing over and over. . . . I think I am saying it VERY poorly. . . . and yes ABSOLUTELY the word hate does take on a different connotation. . . . someone else may be far better able to look at the words with you. . . . but. . . there is a concept I am trying to convey to you here.
Consider how fierce God's love can be. . . how big. . . do you think His hatred could be as burning? . . . because God is hating that which is evil. . . it is a righteous thing. . . or the right thing to do. . . . He does not abide evil He abhors it. . . God is Holy. . .part of being holy is to hate evil. . . . that is a good thing to hate.
When Satan hates. . . he is hating that which is righteous and good. That makes his hate WRONG. . . and evil. . .not righteous.
So, in that respect it is different. It is still hate, the idea of hate itself not being wrong. . . . but, what one hate's makes the difference between it being right or wrong. . . good or bad. So, no it is not the same KIND of hate. . . because one is righteous . . . and one is evil.
As far as Satan being nice in the end. . . to save himself? Would that be sincere repentance against a Holy God? Is forgiveness possible? We need a Savior? No? We are not forgiven on our own merit.
Cynic touched on reprobate men. . . . . . that is a whole other concept here. . . even we who are saved sometimes are brought so low. . . why is that?
Isn't this really just the same stuff TWI used to define and justify "righteous anger"?
Maybe. . .yes the concept. . . where one could be righteously angry over something. But TWI did not hate evil they embraced it. . . . their "Righteous" anger was misplaced.
Whereas someone like you would probably be angry over an injustice or the victimization of someone. . . rightly angry.
Big difference over what you are angry about.
Evil can be tricky to define for someone in a group like TWI or even in certain evangelical circles. . . . my opinion of course. :) For all of us at one time or another I guess.
I find it interesting that you question the existence of God, yet you quote from the Holy Book ascribed to His authorship. Hmmm?
to think that there is an actual being called Satan
would be much like
thinking there is an actual being called God
love your enemies seems to come into play here
or enmity as it is pointed out in scripture
what would change an enemy or enmity? hate?
a leopard cannot change it's spots?
or is it about something else....
Jeremiah 13:23
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
Isaiah 11:6
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
I believe that the Scriptures are clear that we are to "draw nigh to God and the devil will flee from you." book of James, chapter 2? I don't have my bible with me at the moment. This speaks loudly to me that the devil is not our friend, and he is most certainly not the friend of God. If God does indeed love satan, it is also with the knowledge that He did already pass judgment upon him for his wickedness in rebellion towards the Most High.
One thing that I noticed about that show, is that it contains a bunch of new age doctrines, wraps it up in garments of light to deceive those that perhaps don't have a broad biblical base. I don't know your total Christian educational endeavors, but I would be very careful when you watch that show as far as trying to wrap your brain around some of their doctrinal positions.
God Bless.
I did not think this would be necessary to say in the doctrinal section, but I would greatly appreciate NO flippant remarks. This is why I posted this question here and not in the Open forum.
This question is really bugging me, I know we have some great minds on GS, who are very thoughtful and know God's Word, and it's disappointing to get blessed to see somebody took the time to respond only to find a remark that makes it sound like I'm a dope for reaching for an answer in a section that is supposed to be for doctrinal issues.
Please have some respect. I'm asking this question seriously. Wheather or not somebody else believes in God is their personal thing and not what this question is about.
cman: I thought in Jerimiah, that verse is talking about mans inability to change without God. And I know the lion and the lamb thing, but that doesn't mean to me that satan is included in that. The Word suggests just the opposite. That he is damned.
I don't even think it's a matter that they couldn't be forgiven. But do they have the capability of authentically be contrite and repentant?
Forgiveness is contingent upon the sinner being contrite (regretting his actions) and repenting (making a firm resolution to not sin again). If spiritual beings (angels or fallen angels) cannot repent (vice will not repent), then how would it be possible for them to take receipt of forgiveness?
Excellent point, but then what is in the nature of angelic beings that would make them unable to repent or be contrite? Is there any scripture that suggests that they don't have the ability?
(I hope I'm not taking this subject too far afield)
Excellent point, but then what is in the nature of angelic beings that would make them unable to repent or be contrite? Is there any scripture that suggests that they don't have the ability?
(I hope I'm not taking this subject too far afield)
Great question and I'd like to hear the answer as well. :)
I think that's a great point about righteous anger. I think that is what I was struggling with. I do NOT want to get into a wayfer tangent here, but I remember going to one of their small offshoots in the 90s and at that time they were still teaching stuff like the devil was responsible for the flood, and the angel of death was actually one of the devil's servants not one of Gods.
One of the other offshoots (whom I won't name because I don't want to get into another tangent) came out with just the opposite teachings saying that it WAS God who sent the flood, angel of death, etc...and in no way would God use the devil working as His agent etc.. and I believe they went into the righteous anger of God, and they really made a lot of sense.
But yes, you point out some great truths, all in all. Yeah, satan sure can't save himself. So should he even bother when he can take a lot of people down with him at the least, I guess.
Brideofjc! Hi! :) Believe me, I know TBAA is only a show. They really miss the boat on a lot of things, which is why we can't depend on TV to be the ambassadors of truth, no matter how well meaning they are. I think the thing that bugs me most is that they never mention the name of Jesus in any episodes. The executive producer (who is a Christian woman) said that they wanted to reach a larger audience and that was their reason why.
But that being said it does bring home a lot of things that people need to hear. And for that I applaude the show.
Besides, Andrew, the angel of death, is a real cutie.
2 Cor 11:11 Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.
12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
16 ¶ I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little.
17 That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.
18 Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.
2 Cor 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
1 Th 2:17 ¶ But we, brethren, being taken from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavoured the more abundantly to see your face with great desire.
18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.
19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
20 For ye are our glory and joy.
2 Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Rev 2:8 ¶ And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
these talking man flesh, the natural man, the carnal man and Satan man
Excellent point, but then what is in the nature of angelic beings that would make them unable to repent or be contrite? Is there any scripture that suggests that they don't have the ability?
(I hope I'm not taking this subject too far afield)
That is a good question and is one that is impossible to answer.
Why? Because it's impossible to prove a negative. In other words, there are no examples that I see of where an angel (or a devil) being contrite. That, of course, doesn't prove that they can't be contrite. But it also disallows prooftexting that they can be contrite, either.
The best explanation that I have read is from a seventh century saint, St. John of Damascus (An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith (Book II)):
Chapter 3. Concerning angels.
He is Himself the Maker and Creator of the angels: for He brought them out of nothing into being and created them after His own image, an incorporeal race, a sort of spirit or immaterial fire: in the words of the divine David,
He makes His
angels
spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire
: and He has described their lightness and the ardour, and heat, and keenness and sharpness with which they hunger for God and serve Him, and how they are borne to the regions above and are quite delivered from all material thought.
An angel, then, is an intelligent essence, in perpetual motion, with free-will, incorporeal, ministering to God, having obtained by grace an immortal nature: and the Creator alone knows the form and limitation of its essence. But all that we can understand is, that it is incorporeal and immaterial. For all that is compared with God Who alone is incomparable, we find to be dense and material. For in reality only the Deity is immaterial and incorporeal.
The angel's nature then is rational, and intelligent, and endowed with free-will, changeable in will, or fickle. For all that is created is changeable, and only that which is un-created is unchangeable. Also all that is rational is endowed with free-will. As it is, then, rational and intelligent, it is endowed with free-will: and as it is created, it is changeable, having power either to abide or progress in goodness, or to turn towards evil.
It is not susceptible of repentance because it is incorporeal. For it is owing to the weakness of his body that man comes to have repentance.
It is immortal, not by nature but by grace. For all that has had beginning comes also to its natural end. But God alone is eternal, or rather, He is above the Eternal: for He, the Creator of times, is not under the dominion of time, but above time.
They are secondary intelligent lights derived from that first light which is without beginning, for they have the power of illumination; they have no need of tongue or hearing, but without uttering words they communicate to each other their own thoughts and counsels.
Through the Word, therefore, all the angels were created, and through the sanctification by the Holy Spirit were they brought to perfection, sharing each in proportion to his worth and rank in brightness and grace.
They are circumscribed: for when they are in the Heaven they are not on the earth: and when they are sent by God down to the earth they do not remain in the Heaven. They are not hemmed in by walls and doors, and bars and seals, for they are quite unlimited. Unlimited, I repeat, for it is not as they really are that they reveal themselves to the worthy men to whom God wishes them to appear, but in a changed form which the beholders are capable of seeing. For that alone is naturally and strictly unlimited which is un-created. For every created thing is limited by God Who created it.
Further, apart from their essence they receive the sanctification from the Spirit: through the divine grace they prophesy : they have no need of marriage for they are immortal.
Seeing that they are minds they are in mental places , and are not circumscribed after the fashion of a body. For they have not a bodily form by nature,
nor are they extended in three dimensions. But to whatever post they
may be assigned, there they are present after the manner of a mind and energise, and cannot be present and energise in various places at the same time.
Whether they are equals in essence or differ from one another we know not. God, their Creator, Who knows all things, alone knows. But they differ from each other in brightness and position, whether it is that their position is dependent on their brightness, or their brightness on their position: and they impart brightness to one another, because they excel one another in rank and nature. And clearly the higher share their brightness and knowledge with the lower.
They are mighty and prompt to fulfil the will of the Deity, and their nature is endowed with such celerity that wherever the Divine glance bids them there they are straightway found. They are the guardians of the divisions of the earth: they are set over nations and regions, allotted to them by their Creator: they govern all our affairs and bring us succour. And the reason surely is because they are set over us by the divine will and command and are ever in the vicinity of God.
With difficulty they are moved to evil, yet they are not absolutely immoveable: but now they are altogether immoveable, not by nature but by grace and by their nearness to the Only Good.
They behold God according to their capacity, and this is their food.
They are above us for they are incorporeal, and are free of all bodily passion, yet are not passionless: for the Deity alone is passionless.
They take different forms at the bidding of their Master, God, and thus reveal themselves to men and unveil the divine mysteries to them.
They have Heaven for their dwelling-place, and have one duty, to sing God's praise and carry out His divine will.
Moreover, as that most holy, and sacred, and gifted theologian, Dionysius the Areopagite , says, All theology, that is to say, the holy Scripture, has nine different names for the heavenly essences. These essences that divine master in sacred things divides into three groups, each containing three. And the first group, he says, consists of those who are in God's presence and are said to be directly and immediately one with Him, viz., the Seraphim with their six wings, the many-eyed Cherubim and those that sit in the holiest thrones. The second group is that of the Dominions, and the Powers, and the Authorities; and the third, and last, is that of the Rulers and Archangels and Angels.
Some, indeed , like Gregory the Theologian, say that these were before the creation of other things. He thinks that the angelic and heavenly powers were first and that thought was their function. Others, again, hold that they were created after the first heaven was made. But all are agreed that it was before the foundation of man. For myself, I am in harmony with the theologian. For it was fitting that the mental essence should be the first created, and then that which can be perceived, and finally man himself, in whose being both parts are united.
But those who say that the angels are creators of any kind of essence whatever are the mouth of their father, the devil. For since they are created things they are not creators. But He Who creates and provides for and maintains all things is God, Who alone is uncreate and is praised and glorified in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Chapter 4. Concerning the devil and demons.
He who from among these angelic powers was set over the earthly realm, and into whose hands God committed the guardianship of the earth, was not made wicked in nature but was good, and made for good ends, and received from his Creator no trace whatever of evil in himself. But he did not sustain the brightness and the honour which the Creator had bestowed on him, and of his free choice was changed from what was in harmony to what was at variance with his nature, and became roused against God Who created him, and determined to rise in rebellion against Him : and he was the first to depart from good and become evil. For evil is nothing else than absence of goodness, just as darkness also is absence of light. For goodness is the light of the mind, and, similarly, evil is the darkness of the mind. Light, therefore, being the work of the Creator and being made good (for God saw all that He made, and behold they were exceeding good Genesis 1:31) produced darkness at His free-will. But along with him an innumerable host of angels subject to him were torn away and followed him and shared in his fall. Wherefore, being of the same nature as the angels, they became wicked, turning away at their own free choice from good to evil.
Hence they have no power or strength against any one except what God in His dispensation has conceded to them, as for instance, against Job Job 1:12 and those swine that are mentioned in the Gospels. Mark 5:13 But when God has made the concession they do prevail, and are changed and transformed into any form whatever in which they wish to appear.
Of the future both the angels of God and the demons are alike ignorant: yet they make predictions. God reveals the future to the angels and commands them to prophesy, and so what they say comes to pass. But the demons also make predictions, sometimes because they see what is happening at a distance, and sometimes merely making guesses: hence much that they say is false and they should not be believed, even although they do often, in the way we have said, tell what is true. Besides they know the Scriptures.
All wickedness, then, and all impure passions are the work of their mind. But while the liberty to attack man has been granted to them, they have not the strength to over-master any one: for we have it in our power to receive or not to receive the attack. Wherefore there has been prepared for the devil and his demons, and those who follow him, fire unquenchable and everlasting punishment Matthew 25:41 .
Note, further, that what in the case of man is death is a fall in the case of angels. For after the fall there is no possibility of repentance for them, just as after death there is for men no repentance.
I hope the above is of assistance. Wish I had a prooftext, but I don't.
Trust and obey, I am a little confused on the logos and rhema. I think if I have a better understanding of that I might understand what you are saying better. I've heard other preacher's teach (Joyce Meyer, notably) that love is really not a feeling per say, however I know I do feel love, for my mother, my dog even! But I can kind of grasp what you are saying, I just need a better understanding on the logos and rhema.
I apologize if I made no sense. It is hard to explain thoughts in my head! But I will try and elaborate a little. I just hate to type long winded posts... Bore everyone to death! lol.
To start, I think it is important that when we speak of love, we can be speaking of a myriad of things. But when we speak of God's love we speak of something a little more specific. In 1 John 4 we read that God is love. But it goes further, it says, 'He that does not love, knows not God.', and it answers why that is, because God is love. To know God is to be capable of love. Why? Here is where the Hebrew word for love is most revealing to me, the word AHB. The word in its most simplest meaning means 'to reveal the Father'. Now, there are other love's, such as the emotion love, the sexual love, and so on and so forth. But when we speak of God's love, we are not speaking of emotions. We are not speaking of thoughts. We are speaking of God himself and revealing His being, His ways, His care, His truth, His love. Thus back to 1 John, it is impossible to love (reveal the Father[God]) without first knowing Him. Those who honestly know only know Him in part and therefore can only reveal in part. Christ came to reveal God, the prophets revealed God, many throughout history have revealed God. They do so by imitating Him. Ephesians 5:1 'Be ye imitators of God...'. But since no one knows all, our glimpse of who God is, and His love, is limited. But I much rather like the KJV translation of agape as 'charity' because it describes God's nature of one who gives and cares, more so than our English word love which usually is just an emotional term which doesn't clearly fit the definition of agape in 1 Cor 13.
Okay Trust: I think I'm following along a little bit better now. And I have heard a couple of other preachers talk about this, and at the time I really didn't follow what they were trying to say either. So I appreciate the post, though it is going to take a coule of more readings to sink in. And yes, agape, charity, is a much more fitting word. When a church is spiritually dead, this is what is missing most, from my own experience anyway. They could have ( or THINK they have) the greatest doctrine of all, but without charity, it's dead.
Hmm, First Corinthians 13 seems to fit in with that. Thanks for the post.
The other posts, well, it's late and I will have to read them later!
Trust and obey, I am a little confused on the logos and rhema. I think if I have a better understanding of that I might understand what you are saying better... I just need a better understanding on the logos and rhema.
I'll try and clarify my thoughts, but of course they are just my thoughts on the subject, and may not make any sense at all!
Both are Greek words. rhema and logos. Both are 'primarily' translated with the same English term 'words'. But their meaning is different. Rhema at its simplest meaning would just mean 'words'. Such as God's words, what is recorded in scripture. What one says and writes. And sorta defines a language. Logos on the other hand comes from a root that means to collect and at the heart of the word logos is a myriad of thoughts and concepts collected together, they are then synthesized then into words. But those words don't always fully explain or define the entire 'collection' that is being explained. Have I complicated it more?
When one speaks about God's rhema, they are speaking of specific words written. Black and white. Every yod and tittle.
But when one speaks of God's logos, they attempt to speak of the meanings and understandings, the heart and collection of God's thoughts behind the specific rhema(words).
God is certainly love. Those are the specific rhema(words). But what they mean, we can only attempt to explain. For God is greater than us all. But if we look at who He is, what has been revealed about Him, and what He has revealed to us, I think we can start to understand His nature, and understand what He means, the logos, the thoughts, behind these black and white writings. God didn't have the scriptures written so we have a black and white book to read and memorize. He wrote it as the starting point to a relationship with Him. A "how to" on coming to Him personally and having that relationship to know Him, and by doing that, we can know Him personally and reveal Him to others by imitating Him(His love, His care, His charity, His ways).. And yes even his hatred for evil. All that is part of sharing God's love.
But on this subject of evil. That surely God hates, and we ought to as well if we are to imitate Him. It doesn't remove the fact that God loves His creation. Each and every part of it. He created it with a purpose in mind. But hates it when it turns from what it was created for. Yet there is nowhere I've seen that God has refused forgiveness to those who return to Him. Not the devil, not a person, not a nation. And while he has pronounced destruction to all those who turn away, including the devil, He has changed that pronouncement when people and nations have turned back to Him, and that is recorded many times in the scriptures. Which to me speaks loudly of God's nature. While He is willing to alert those of their impending destruction, He is always willing to change that initial pronouncement to those who in their hearts turn back to Him. And while I doubt the devil also will ever turn, I believe God is willing if it were to happen. For this is God's love manifest (1 John). And also, 'For God so loved the world that He gave His one unique son that whosoever puts their trust in him, should not perish but have life everlasting'.
But on this subject of evil. That surely God hates, and we ought to as well if we are to imitate Him. It doesn't remove the fact that God loves His creation. Each and every part of it. He created it with a purpose in mind. But hates it when it turns from what it was created for. Yet there is nowhere I've seen that God has refused forgiveness to those who return to Him. Not the devil, not a person, not a nation.
God's plan of redemption is for mankind. We are forgiven through Christ. . . We know and understand in PART. . . when we learn something new. . we can repent of our sins . . . . Angels know God perfectly. . . . when Satan and his angels rebelled they were going against what they already had complete understanding and knowledge of. . . the glory of God. A complete rejection with full knowledge. Complete evil.
God is love. . . again. . .we cannot apply our understanding of love to God, and along with being love. . . . and righteous, God is also perfectly JUST. He is every bit as just as he is love.
God's plan of redemption for mankind brings glory to God as it reveals His mercy. He is merciful to those He will have mercy on. If one doesn't understand is just nature, His mercy is not going to be fully evident. What is it we are saved from? GOD's wrath to come. Is it just He has wrath? If we can begin to understand His amazing nature and glory . . . what it means that God is holy and He is every bit as holy as He is love. . . we see His great mercy revealed.
Being holy means being totally separated from evil. . . He has no darkness in Him. . .that is His goal with us. . . sanctification. . . to remove evil from us. . . and then ultimately our glorification.
His being holy is not that He has a great track record on doing good. . . . but, that He is completely separated from evil. . . . so, it is almost unfathomable that He would make a way for us to be accepted and to share with Him. While we were yet sinners?? THAT is mercy and THAT is love.
God's love for the angel's allowed them to fully see His glory and to worship in His presence continually. . . . Is there forgiveness for the rejection of such complete knowledge of God? How could there be?
But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. Luke 12:48
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geisha779
The beatitudes are antithetical to worldly wisdom. You seem to have answered your own question here. . . . and very well too. "I think the idea of loving satan can be very dangerous, to the point of
TrustAndObey
In question to how can God hate. Is where I tried to explain my thoughts on love. Hate is not an action such as love. It is a feeling. An emotion. And while that emotion can turn to an action, it is n
RottieGrrrl
Okay Trust: I think I'm following along a little bit better now. And I have heard a couple of other preachers talk about this, and at the time I really didn't follow what they were trying to say eith
markomalley
Rather than "sorrow," I probably should have said "contrition." I think it would have been a bit clearer, so my apologies on that.
As far as whether an angel could feel "sorrow," I am of two minds.
First, I would think that angels would be surrounded by such glory that it might overshadow any grief or mourning that they would have. Take a look at Isiah 6:1-3, Ezekiel 1:22-28, Apocalypse 4.
However, I would think that there would be mourning in heaven for a sinner who is lost. Jesus stated, Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance (Luke 15:7) -- I would think that there would be some variety of grieving when one goes "off the tracks" as well. But I am not 100% sure that it would be something that we, as flesh and blood, would be able to fully appreciate.
Consider this:
Jesus was identified as the Lamb of God: Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29)
If we take a look at the exalted position of the Lamb in heaven:
One can't help to wonder at their reaction as the Lamb was smitten for our sins. Was it some type of sorrow or mourning or grieving or would it have been some sort of righteous anger? Or just a pause and gasp from the joy? Or something else altogether?
Compare this to the reaction to the martyrs who were calling for vengeance:
They were basically told to be patient. A very non-emotional type of response -- one that is very difficult for those of us with blood pumping in our veins to understand. And that's my point: I am not sure we would really be able to understand what spiritual beings "feel." Nor will we be able to understand what we will "feel," once our corruption has put on incorruption.
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JeffSjo
Interesting question Rottiegrrl!
It's been a while Mark. Nice to see you around again.
It seems to me that when Jezebel was told that dogs would poop her remains out in some field that because of her persistent murdering and other evils she was definitely at the point of being so bad that the question of whether or not God loved her seems moot to me.
Much more so since "the father of lies" end has been foretold many, many times in the scripture.
But since in TWI twisted and insane bastards have taken it upon themselves to deal out themselves what can be only described as a wannabe version of the Lord's vengence that this whole topic may be more than a little touchy for many of us.
But I do believe that even though the devil's end is clear to me, that since Michael himself doesn't throw railing accusations in the devil's direction that we should somehow manage to show similar restraint.
If I wasn't committed to the idea of former TWI leadership turning to live in a healthier mindset than the old ways (so-to-speak) that they learned from Wierwille that I wouldn't do them the courtesy of pointing out that they were twisted and insane bastards at all.
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RottieGrrrl
Trust and obey, I am a little confused on the logos and rhema. I think if I have a better understanding of that I might understand what you are saying better. I've heard other preacher's teach (Joyce Meyer, notably) that love is really not a feeling per say, however I know I do feel love, for my mother, my dog even! But I can kind of grasp what you are saying, I just need a better understanding on the logos and rhema.
mark and geisha you both raise more questions than answers for me now, LOL! The scripture presented is something I am reading in my own versions of the bible. This is going to take some time.
Jeff you are right about Michael the archangel, how he even won't rebuke the devil himself, but use the Lord's name instead I believe?
I really appreciate the answers and input here, it's just going to take me a bit to go through all the scripture and try to get some sort of a conclusion, if there is one at all.
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geisha779
Well, I guess in a way this question you pose should bring up many many questions for you. . . . really good questions because it is all wrapped up in the attributes and nature of God. There is no more greater topic IMHO. Nothing interests me or thrills me more.
The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; Proverbs 8:13
The word hate is used many times in the bible. Maybe someone else can point them all out and tell you what they mean and give you details and analyze it to death to come to a very simple conclusion. . . . . my point is really basic. . . you need to seek God and desire to understand His nature. These questions will be answered in knowing God.
We read that God is love and sometimes stop. . . applying what WE understand about love to God. . . . but His love is greater and more perfect than we sometimes remember. . . .
Because God is love does that mean He does not hate? Don't you yourself hate evil? Is it right for God who is righteous to hate evil? Think about it. . . He would have to, but that would not be wrong. . . it would be right.
Satan? He is not a human being with whom God has a covenant. . .history is already written for him. He has no sacrifice to save Him.
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Oakspear
I think it's pretty clear, from a biblical literalist point of view, that's Satan's history, as another poster put it, is written. I can't see any place in the bible, that indicates that one should love Satan. Although I'm sure that someone could probably get that particular hand to fit into that specific glove and come up with some scriptures.
What I don't understand is why Satan or any of his fallen angelic followers cannot be forgiven, other than "because God said so". What is God's reason for making forgiveness unavailable to them? After all, they changed once, didn't they? From the angel of light and whatever the other guys were angels of to The Devil and his demons.
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markomalley
I don't even think it's a matter that they couldn't be forgiven. But do they have the capability of authentically be contrite and repentant?
Forgiveness is contingent upon the sinner being contrite (regretting his actions) and repenting (making a firm resolution to not sin again). If spiritual beings (angels or fallen angels) cannot repent (vice will not repent), then how would it be possible for them to take receipt of forgiveness?
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RottieGrrrl
geisha yes, it takes but a cursory glance of the bible to know that God hates evil, you are absolutely right. My point being that it is not the same of hate of a demon itself. Like the kind of hate we can see somewhat expressed through the works of a serial killer, a terorrist, etc. The kind of hate the devil feels towards God.
mark you gave a fair ( and by fair I mean a good evenhanded answer, not a so-so answer :)) answer to Oakspear's question. It's something I wonder myself. If an angel falls if they are capable of being forgiven
I've been told that they are incapable of being contrite as well. That satan could never worship God, he wants to BE God. Then I wonder about the other fallen angels and if any of them knows that they have screwed up big time and are sorry they followed the wrong guy.
I know this sounds stupid, but you would think that if satan knows how the bible says it's going to end for him, that he would try to screw things up by being nice to everyone at the end. LOL! I'm not really joking though, I'm serious. I was told by somebody that maybe he can't help himself. Or perhaps he really thinks he has a chance of winning?
Sigh.
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Cynic
I think the following quote is a competent statement about questions that have arisen in this thread.
(From “Common Grace,” by Cornelius Van Til)
Van Til thus distinguishes between those who are "epistemologically fully self-conscious" "in their rejection of God" and others who have not passed beyond the possibility of redemption. The former have come to be only hated by God, while the latter still reside under a general love God has for his creatures -- a love that God expresses most excellently to them in the general call of the gospel.
I would add, however, that, although it is true that God is loving and merciful to his creatures that have not passed beyond the possibility of redemption, is is also true that God never extended his love to fallen angels or reprobate men in his predestining decrees (see Romans 9:11-16).
Scripture makes reference to elect angels as well as making reference to elect humans.
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geisha779
Rottiegirl,
No, sincere questions are not silly when you are seeking to know God.
I don't know why I keep saying the same thing over and over. . . . I think I am saying it VERY poorly. . . . and yes ABSOLUTELY the word hate does take on a different connotation. . . . someone else may be far better able to look at the words with you. . . . but. . . there is a concept I am trying to convey to you here.
Consider how fierce God's love can be. . . how big. . . do you think His hatred could be as burning? . . . because God is hating that which is evil. . . it is a righteous thing. . . or the right thing to do. . . . He does not abide evil He abhors it. . . God is Holy. . .part of being holy is to hate evil. . . . that is a good thing to hate.
When Satan hates. . . he is hating that which is righteous and good. That makes his hate WRONG. . . and evil. . .not righteous.
So, in that respect it is different. It is still hate, the idea of hate itself not being wrong. . . . but, what one hate's makes the difference between it being right or wrong. . . good or bad. So, no it is not the same KIND of hate. . . because one is righteous . . . and one is evil.
As far as Satan being nice in the end. . . to save himself? Would that be sincere repentance against a Holy God? Is forgiveness possible? We need a Savior? No? We are not forgiven on our own merit.
Cynic touched on reprobate men. . . . . . that is a whole other concept here. . . even we who are saved sometimes are brought so low. . . why is that?
And. . . . Satan is not a man.
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waysider
Isn't this really just the same stuff TWI used to define and justify "righteous anger"?
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geisha779
Maybe. . .yes the concept. . . where one could be righteously angry over something. But TWI did not hate evil they embraced it. . . . their "Righteous" anger was misplaced.
Whereas someone like you would probably be angry over an injustice or the victimization of someone. . . rightly angry.
Big difference over what you are angry about.
Evil can be tricky to define for someone in a group like TWI or even in certain evangelical circles. . . . my opinion of course. :) For all of us at one time or another I guess.
But, God being perfectly Holy. . . not an issue.
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brideofjc
I find it interesting that you question the existence of God, yet you quote from the Holy Book ascribed to His authorship. Hmmm?
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brideofjc
I believe that the Scriptures are clear that we are to "draw nigh to God and the devil will flee from you." book of James, chapter 2? I don't have my bible with me at the moment. This speaks loudly to me that the devil is not our friend, and he is most certainly not the friend of God. If God does indeed love satan, it is also with the knowledge that He did already pass judgment upon him for his wickedness in rebellion towards the Most High.
One thing that I noticed about that show, is that it contains a bunch of new age doctrines, wraps it up in garments of light to deceive those that perhaps don't have a broad biblical base. I don't know your total Christian educational endeavors, but I would be very careful when you watch that show as far as trying to wrap your brain around some of their doctrinal positions.
God Bless.
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year2027
God first
hi RottieGrrrl and everyone other
Yes how God not love Satan he is love
he not like Satan actions but he loves him
love Roy
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Oakspear
(I hope I'm not taking this subject too far afield)
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RottieGrrrl
Great question and I'd like to hear the answer as well. :)
I think that's a great point about righteous anger. I think that is what I was struggling with. I do NOT want to get into a wayfer tangent here, but I remember going to one of their small offshoots in the 90s and at that time they were still teaching stuff like the devil was responsible for the flood, and the angel of death was actually one of the devil's servants not one of Gods.
One of the other offshoots (whom I won't name because I don't want to get into another tangent) came out with just the opposite teachings saying that it WAS God who sent the flood, angel of death, etc...and in no way would God use the devil working as His agent etc.. and I believe they went into the righteous anger of God, and they really made a lot of sense.
But yes, you point out some great truths, all in all. Yeah, satan sure can't save himself. So should he even bother when he can take a lot of people down with him at the least, I guess.
Brideofjc! Hi! :) Believe me, I know TBAA is only a show. They really miss the boat on a lot of things, which is why we can't depend on TV to be the ambassadors of truth, no matter how well meaning they are. I think the thing that bugs me most is that they never mention the name of Jesus in any episodes. The executive producer (who is a Christian woman) said that they wanted to reach a larger audience and that was their reason why.
But that being said it does bring home a lot of things that people need to hear. And for that I applaude the show.
Besides, Andrew, the angel of death, is a real cutie.
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year2027
God first
hi RottieGrrrl
2 Cor 11:11 Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.
12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
16 ¶ I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little.
17 That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.
18 Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.
2 Cor 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
1 Th 2:17 ¶ But we, brethren, being taken from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavoured the more abundantly to see your face with great desire.
18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.
19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
20 For ye are our glory and joy.
2 Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Rev 2:8 ¶ And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
these talking man flesh, the natural man, the carnal man and Satan man
look these more careful and may see it
love Roy
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markomalley
That is a good question and is one that is impossible to answer.
Why? Because it's impossible to prove a negative. In other words, there are no examples that I see of where an angel (or a devil) being contrite. That, of course, doesn't prove that they can't be contrite. But it also disallows prooftexting that they can be contrite, either.
The best explanation that I have read is from a seventh century saint, St. John of Damascus (An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith (Book II)):
I hope the above is of assistance. Wish I had a prooftext, but I don't.
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cman
separating god from man
is as big of a mistake as
separting satan from man
twi's main problem
man is spiritual
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waysider
I think "feigned" would more accurately describe it.
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TrustAndObey
I apologize if I made no sense. It is hard to explain thoughts in my head! But I will try and elaborate a little. I just hate to type long winded posts... Bore everyone to death! lol.
To start, I think it is important that when we speak of love, we can be speaking of a myriad of things. But when we speak of God's love we speak of something a little more specific. In 1 John 4 we read that God is love. But it goes further, it says, 'He that does not love, knows not God.', and it answers why that is, because God is love. To know God is to be capable of love. Why? Here is where the Hebrew word for love is most revealing to me, the word AHB. The word in its most simplest meaning means 'to reveal the Father'. Now, there are other love's, such as the emotion love, the sexual love, and so on and so forth. But when we speak of God's love, we are not speaking of emotions. We are not speaking of thoughts. We are speaking of God himself and revealing His being, His ways, His care, His truth, His love. Thus back to 1 John, it is impossible to love (reveal the Father[God]) without first knowing Him. Those who honestly know only know Him in part and therefore can only reveal in part. Christ came to reveal God, the prophets revealed God, many throughout history have revealed God. They do so by imitating Him. Ephesians 5:1 'Be ye imitators of God...'. But since no one knows all, our glimpse of who God is, and His love, is limited. But I much rather like the KJV translation of agape as 'charity' because it describes God's nature of one who gives and cares, more so than our English word love which usually is just an emotional term which doesn't clearly fit the definition of agape in 1 Cor 13.
... tbc
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RottieGrrrl
Okay Trust: I think I'm following along a little bit better now. And I have heard a couple of other preachers talk about this, and at the time I really didn't follow what they were trying to say either. So I appreciate the post, though it is going to take a coule of more readings to sink in. And yes, agape, charity, is a much more fitting word. When a church is spiritually dead, this is what is missing most, from my own experience anyway. They could have ( or THINK they have) the greatest doctrine of all, but without charity, it's dead.
Hmm, First Corinthians 13 seems to fit in with that. Thanks for the post.
The other posts, well, it's late and I will have to read them later!
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TrustAndObey
I'll try and clarify my thoughts, but of course they are just my thoughts on the subject, and may not make any sense at all!
Both are Greek words. rhema and logos. Both are 'primarily' translated with the same English term 'words'. But their meaning is different. Rhema at its simplest meaning would just mean 'words'. Such as God's words, what is recorded in scripture. What one says and writes. And sorta defines a language. Logos on the other hand comes from a root that means to collect and at the heart of the word logos is a myriad of thoughts and concepts collected together, they are then synthesized then into words. But those words don't always fully explain or define the entire 'collection' that is being explained. Have I complicated it more?
When one speaks about God's rhema, they are speaking of specific words written. Black and white. Every yod and tittle.
But when one speaks of God's logos, they attempt to speak of the meanings and understandings, the heart and collection of God's thoughts behind the specific rhema(words).
God is certainly love. Those are the specific rhema(words). But what they mean, we can only attempt to explain. For God is greater than us all. But if we look at who He is, what has been revealed about Him, and what He has revealed to us, I think we can start to understand His nature, and understand what He means, the logos, the thoughts, behind these black and white writings. God didn't have the scriptures written so we have a black and white book to read and memorize. He wrote it as the starting point to a relationship with Him. A "how to" on coming to Him personally and having that relationship to know Him, and by doing that, we can know Him personally and reveal Him to others by imitating Him(His love, His care, His charity, His ways).. And yes even his hatred for evil. All that is part of sharing God's love.
But on this subject of evil. That surely God hates, and we ought to as well if we are to imitate Him. It doesn't remove the fact that God loves His creation. Each and every part of it. He created it with a purpose in mind. But hates it when it turns from what it was created for. Yet there is nowhere I've seen that God has refused forgiveness to those who return to Him. Not the devil, not a person, not a nation. And while he has pronounced destruction to all those who turn away, including the devil, He has changed that pronouncement when people and nations have turned back to Him, and that is recorded many times in the scriptures. Which to me speaks loudly of God's nature. While He is willing to alert those of their impending destruction, He is always willing to change that initial pronouncement to those who in their hearts turn back to Him. And while I doubt the devil also will ever turn, I believe God is willing if it were to happen. For this is God's love manifest (1 John). And also, 'For God so loved the world that He gave His one unique son that whosoever puts their trust in him, should not perish but have life everlasting'.
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geisha779
God's plan of redemption is for mankind. We are forgiven through Christ. . . We know and understand in PART. . . when we learn something new. . we can repent of our sins . . . . Angels know God perfectly. . . . when Satan and his angels rebelled they were going against what they already had complete understanding and knowledge of. . . the glory of God. A complete rejection with full knowledge. Complete evil.
God is love. . . again. . .we cannot apply our understanding of love to God, and along with being love. . . . and righteous, God is also perfectly JUST. He is every bit as just as he is love.
God's plan of redemption for mankind brings glory to God as it reveals His mercy. He is merciful to those He will have mercy on. If one doesn't understand is just nature, His mercy is not going to be fully evident. What is it we are saved from? GOD's wrath to come. Is it just He has wrath? If we can begin to understand His amazing nature and glory . . . what it means that God is holy and He is every bit as holy as He is love. . . we see His great mercy revealed.
Being holy means being totally separated from evil. . . He has no darkness in Him. . .that is His goal with us. . . sanctification. . . to remove evil from us. . . and then ultimately our glorification.
His being holy is not that He has a great track record on doing good. . . . but, that He is completely separated from evil. . . . so, it is almost unfathomable that He would make a way for us to be accepted and to share with Him. While we were yet sinners?? THAT is mercy and THAT is love.
God's love for the angel's allowed them to fully see His glory and to worship in His presence continually. . . . Is there forgiveness for the rejection of such complete knowledge of God? How could there be?
But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. Luke 12:48
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
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