to think that there is an actual being called Satan
would be much like
thinking there is an actual being called God
love your enemies seems to come into play here
or enmity as it is pointed out in scripture
what would change an enemy or enmity? hate?
a leopard cannot change it's spots?
or is it about something else....
Jeremiah 13:23
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
Isaiah 11:6
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
I did not think this would be necessary to say in the doctrinal section, but I would greatly appreciate NO flippant remarks. This is why I posted this question here and not in the Open forum.
This question is really bugging me, I know we have some great minds on GS, who are very thoughtful and know God's Word, and it's disappointing to get blessed to see somebody took the time to respond only to find a remark that makes it sound like I'm a dope for reaching for an answer in a section that is supposed to be for doctrinal issues.
Please have some respect. I'm asking this question seriously. Wheather or not somebody else believes in God is their personal thing and not what this question is about.
cman: I thought in Jerimiah, that verse is talking about mans inability to change without God. And I know the lion and the lamb thing, but that doesn't mean to me that satan is included in that. The Word suggests just the opposite. That he is damned.
I'm sorry if my answer appeared to be flippant. I certainly didn't mean it to be so. But,this question is a bit like the old question of whether or not God can make a rock that is too big for himself to lift.Anyhow, if you really want to explore this question, you first have to understand that our modern day concept of "satan" is not derived from the Bible.
Okay, waysider. thanks for coming back and clearing things up. :) I am reading the link you provided, and I'm like, damn, this philosophy sounds awfuly familiar, and then I look up the author, Duncan Heaster, and he's a christidelphian!
The reason I put and exclamation point at the end of that is because about 3 blocks away from me stands probably the only Christidelphian "church" in the USA. They usually have home fellowships, like the Way. And the reason I know about them is because I checked them out. I was curious about this "church" that although they don't go out knocking on doors trying to win others to their faith, they like are so closed off from the community, it's just weird.So I checked them out on google, years ago, and was intrigued that they don't believe in the trinity, like the Way, but then their beliefs get even stranger to me.
They don't believe in the devil, they think man is the cause of his own sins. Kind of hard to go along with their views, since half the bible is about the devil.
Anyway, I'll read more later, I have to go grill my chicken wings.
I was quite surprised to see how many people are saying that yes, indeed God loves the devil. He doesn't love his evil ways, but God does yes indeedie love satan himself. Some even went as far as to say that we should love satan too! They usually use the verse of loving our enimies, forgiving those who sinned against us, blah blah blah.
I just cannot quite swallow this line of thinking. I know God loved Lucifer, but satan is more than just a being of evil ways, satan IS evil. Just as God is Love. I think the idea of loving satan can be very dangerous, to the point of being passive towards evil. I don't even think that satan or his minions (sp?) can be forgiven, in the impossible event that he would ask for it. I mean, I think his future is pretty well laid out in the bible, isn't it?
Somebody once told me that God mourns satan. I don't know if that is in the bible or not though. I would really like to know if there is something in the bible that relates to this question.
I don't know what is bugging me more, the idea that I'm suppose to love satan, or that God might love him or what.
The beatitudes are antithetical to worldly wisdom.
You seem to have answered your own question here. . . . and very well too. "I think the idea of loving satan can be very dangerous, to the point of being passive towards evil."
Scripture does not directly address your question about Satan, but the answer is found in understanding the attributes and character of God. . . . as best as we are able. Because God is love does that mean he cannot hate evil?
For You are not a God who delights in wickedness;
evil cannot lodge with You.
The boastful cannot stand in Your presence;
You hate all evildoers. Psalm 5:4,5
You seem to understand the issues with the line of reasoning you are examining. . . . What might be helpful for you is to start reading some good apologetics or even invest in an apologetics bible. The Apologetics Study Bible is really a good tool. . . it is the Holman Christian Standard version. It addresses many of the issues that come up when post modern thinking is applied to biblical interpretation.
I didn't even know really, what apologetics meant, though I've heard the term a hundred times, and I looked on Amazon and saw the bible you are talking about. Thank you for the scripture and your answer. :)
I was watching an episode of Touched by an Angel this week, and in this particular episode, satan came to a small town disguised as a white supremacist to destroy the town with hate, fear and division. At the end, when confronted by the angels, Tess (Della Reese) said to the devil (satan himself) that God loves him too. This took me aback that she would say this, and I looked up on the internet to see what people thought about this.
I was quite surprised to see how many people are saying that yes, indeed God loves the devil. He doesn't love his evil ways, but God does yes indeedie love satan himself. Some even went as far as to say that we should love satan too! They usually use the verse of loving our enimies, forgiving those who sinned against us, blah blah blah.
I just cannot quite swallow this line of thinking. I know God loved Lucifer, but satan is more than just a being of evil ways, satan IS evil. Just as God is Love. I think the idea of loving satan can be very dangerous, to the point of being passive towards evil. I don't even think that satan or his minions (sp?) can be forgiven, in the impossible event that he would ask for it. I mean, I think his future is pretty well laid out in the bible, isn't it?
Somebody once told me that God mourns satan. I don't know if that is in the bible or not though. I would really like to know if there is something in the bible that relates to this question.
I don't know what is bugging me more, the idea that I'm suppose to love satan, or that God might love him or what.
First of all, I don't know about "Touched by an Angel." It's been a long, long time since I've seen that show.
Having said that, you may wish to recall the prophecy from Ezekiel 28:
Eze 28:12 "Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, carnelian, topaz, and jasper, chrysolite, beryl, and onyx, sapphire, carbuncle, and emerald; and wrought in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.
Eze 28:14 With an anointed guardian cherub I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
Eze 28:15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.
Eze 28:16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you.
Eze 28:18 By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries; so I brought forth fire from the midst of you; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you.
Eze 28:19 All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more for ever."
We must remember that God is love (1 John 4:8) -- so I would submit that, other than a condescension made to help primitive man understand, God is organically incapable of hate. If He is capable of hate, then God could not be described as "love."
Lucifer is a created being and all that God created was good (1 Tim 4:4). The passage above analogizes Lucifer's state in the beginning, at the moment of his creation. So it would be safe to say that God loved Satan at the time. Consider this:
For the mountains may depart and the hills be removed, but my steadfast love shall not depart from you, and my covenant of peace shall not be removed, says the LORD, who has compassion on you. (Isa 54:10)
The context of this verse, of course, is to Noah after the flood; but it goes to show that God is faithful: if one considers all of the evil perpetrated by man since the flood, it would take tremendous longsuffering to not repent of that decision.
So I don't see that God would change His mind about Lucifer, even considering the rebellion that Lucifer committed.
But it's also obvious that God recognized from the beginning that Lucifer would do what he did. After all, He's had the lake of fire waiting for a while (Mat 25:41: Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;). Angels aren't known for saying they're sorry and amending their ways, either (be they angels of God or the devil and his minions. As St John of Damscus said about 1,300 years ago: "what in the case of man is death is a fall in the case of angels. For after the fall there is no possibility of repentance for them, just as after death there is for men no repentance."
So do I think that God loves Satan? Yes. God is Love.
Do I think that God is trying to get Satan to repent? No. The ability for regret and contrition is a grace given to man, not one given to angels.
Do I think that God regrets having created Satan? God knew from the beginning what would happen and if he would repent of it, he wouldn't have created those angels to begin with.
Do I think that in the real world, a matronly Della Reeves type angel would say, "God loves you too" to Satan? No. There is absolutely no indication of such behavior by the Lord or any of the Angels in the real world. Such a statement might be made to a really bad man...such a statement might be made to a man who was possessed by the Devil...but a physical manifestation of the Devil? No, because such a statement would imply that the receiver could be softened or made to feel sorrow, which neither an angel nor a demon is capable of.
By the way, Although I don't believe God can hate like the devil, I do believe that God can, and does feel utter contempt for people at times,(or perhaps just for the things they do?) and for the devil and his army. I say this from my own personal experience. Hate is too strong a word to use for certain people and the way I have felt about them, and I know I could never feel the pure hate of the devil. I've certainly seen a few people pass in my life that I thought the world was a better place without, and couldn't muster any tears for them. But I've also felt utter contempt, which is far from hate, but it is a intense dislike, and lack of respect. Just throwing that out there. Now that this thread has got me thinking.
Well now I'm comparing how I feel to how I think God should feel and that isn't right either. Sigh.
*edited because I don't know how to work the edit feature.
Know that Yahweh your God is God, the faithful God who keeps His gracious covenant loyalty for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commands. But He directly pays back and destroys those who hate Him. He will not hesitate to directly pay back the one who hates Him. Deuteronomy 7: 9,10
Well, if God is like that towards men who hate him, how bad is it going to be for one who cannot repent?
Does it really stand to reason that because God is love, He does not hate things? The bible says He hates things and that is just as true as that He is love.
Is it really wrong to hate evil?
How does that make Him any LESS loving?
It doesn't . . . God's love is not tolerance for anything and everything. . . and everyone including Satan. . . not even close. God is love and God is just, Holy, Righteous, and promises to avenge evil. . . no?
I can share with you what I believe, but it's only what I have comprehended from my limited perspective and time with the Lord.. So it is only something to consider if you wish...
The Christian scriptures say that God is love, as it is stated twice in 1 John 4. So this is who God is, and whom/what He has revealed of himself to us. Malachi 3 also states that God does not change, so this God of love is the same yesterday, today , and forever. His love does not change.
I think also of John 1:3. However I must explain my understanding of this since there are many different understandings here. John 1 speaks of the logos. God's logos. And in Greek this logos is different than God's rhema. The Old Testament laws were written in stone and unchangeable. THEY were rhema. Specific detailed words. And in the Old Testament, there was showbread that was replaced daily with new and the old was by law only to be eaten by the priests. THIS was the law. THIS WAS RHEMA. But David was hungry (Mark 2:25) and this showbread was given to him by the priests which was NOT lawful, yet it was not considered sin. Why? Because of the logos!! God's logos is His heart, his intent, his purpose, his love. David had a need, and God's laws, the rhema, doesn't stop God's heart, His love, His desire from overriding the written rhema. All the law was given with a purpose, a heart, a logos intent. Not a black and white scripted rhema that has no life.
So in John 1:3 we read that 'All things were made by God's logos. [The same logos that was from the beginning with God of v2 and v1. God's words, but not rhema, his logos. His intent, his heart, his desires] and without God's logos [His desire or intent], nothing was made that was made. [John 1 is sort of a reference to Genesis, where in the beginning God said, His words - his heart - his desire, let there be light, and light was. And nothing was made without God's logos - His heart desire for it to be so.].
I'm trying to set a preface here, so I'm sorry if it is a little too much. I'm trying to share where my thoughts are so I have to add a bit detail. Not doctrine, not rhema, not necessarily 'It Is Written', but where my thinking is on the subject, which is subjective.
We read in the Old Testament how God's heart, his logos, was for the wicked to change their ways. Ezekiel 33:11 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked. but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways, for why will ye die?'
God pleads for the wicked to change. And I believe that is his heart for all his creation. Be it angel, man, and beast alike. He changes not! And He created all things with a purpose. But when His own creation turns from Him, and the purpose it was created, it dies. Not because God desires it so, but it can not live of itself. Anymore than a car can "try" and act and do something it was not intended to do, it will fail. So God's creation tries to do that which it was not created to do. We pay the penalty of 'sin' which is nothing more than walking away from that purpose which our own body was created for. And God knew that would happen. He knew Satan and some angels would also. And His(God's) cry always is, turn, turn from your own ways, for why should you die? Why should you kill yourself? I created you for this purpose, why turn away and die? He created Satan for a purpose, why turn away and die!
I think love also sometimes is misunderstood. Many think of it as an emotion or a feeling. A thought, or a desire. But there is where I like the old KJV translation of agape into 'charity'. It's not just a thought, but an action. It is taking care of, ie. loving, caring for, meeting the needs of whatever one 'loves'.
And in this, God has never stopped loving His creation. He cares for and meets the needs, just as the sun shines on the righteous and unrighteous, as does the rain. But as many parents sometimes find out too late, it is sometimes better to withhold 'items' from your kids, rather than giving them everything they crave and lust for. It's a matter of what do they need. Sometime like David, he was hungry and in need, and it was fine for him to eat that which was unlawful. Not rhema, but logos. God who is perfect, knows what his creation needs and cares for it as the perfect Father. I believe that includes Satan. That doesn't mean He is an enabler though, anymore than a parent learns not to be an enabler for their kids bad habits. But it also means, the adversary is allowed to live that he might turn, or else, the writing, the rhema, has been written, He will die, unless he changes.
Jeremiah 18:8 "If that nation, against whom I have pronounced [destruction], turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them."
Exellent points, geisha. But there has to be different meanings to the word "hate" Pure hate comes from the devil. I don't think a human can possibly comprehend that kind of hate, unless they were possessed. The way that God "hates" things has got to be different than what the devil IS.
In question to how can God hate. Is where I tried to explain my thoughts on love. Hate is not an action such as love. It is a feeling. An emotion. And while that emotion can turn to an action, it is not in of itself. Whereas the love, agape specifically, is not like the English word love, but rather is defined by God in 1 Cor 13 as action, call it charity, rather than an emotion or a feeling, such as hate. Thus it's like comparing an apple with an orange. A feeling/emotion with an action... God can love and hate. He can love and dislike. He can love, and embrace.
The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night. (Nahum 1:2-8 )
Sounds like an action to me.
Does it stand to reason that because God is love. . . . he would purely hate evil? Would that be wrong? Would that make God ANY less love because He hated evil? No, not at all. How could it? If God is all good . . . He would HAVE to hate evil.
Consider what David says in Psalm 139
0 For they speak against You wickedly;
Your enemies take Your name in vain.
21 Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred;
I count them my enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
Try me, and know my anxieties;
24 And see if there is any wicked way in me,
And lead me in the way everlasting.
After he tells God he hates God's enemies with perfect hatred. . . he then asks God to search his heart!! Was David wicked for telling God he hated with perfect hatred? No.
We love OUR enemies. . . . but do we love that which stands opposed to God?
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geisha779
The beatitudes are antithetical to worldly wisdom. You seem to have answered your own question here. . . . and very well too. "I think the idea of loving satan can be very dangerous, to the point of
TrustAndObey
In question to how can God hate. Is where I tried to explain my thoughts on love. Hate is not an action such as love. It is a feeling. An emotion. And while that emotion can turn to an action, it is n
RottieGrrrl
Okay Trust: I think I'm following along a little bit better now. And I have heard a couple of other preachers talk about this, and at the time I really didn't follow what they were trying to say eith
waysider
I guess you have to buy into the whole devil thing before it really matters to you.
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cman
to think that there is an actual being called Satan
would be much like
thinking there is an actual being called God
love your enemies seems to come into play here
or enmity as it is pointed out in scripture
what would change an enemy or enmity? hate?
a leopard cannot change it's spots?
or is it about something else....
Jeremiah 13:23
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
Isaiah 11:6
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
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RottieGrrrl
I did not think this would be necessary to say in the doctrinal section, but I would greatly appreciate NO flippant remarks. This is why I posted this question here and not in the Open forum.
This question is really bugging me, I know we have some great minds on GS, who are very thoughtful and know God's Word, and it's disappointing to get blessed to see somebody took the time to respond only to find a remark that makes it sound like I'm a dope for reaching for an answer in a section that is supposed to be for doctrinal issues.
Please have some respect. I'm asking this question seriously. Wheather or not somebody else believes in God is their personal thing and not what this question is about.
cman: I thought in Jerimiah, that verse is talking about mans inability to change without God. And I know the lion and the lamb thing, but that doesn't mean to me that satan is included in that. The Word suggests just the opposite. That he is damned.
Oh gee, I don't know. This is frustrating me! :)
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RottieGrrrl
whoops, still figuring out this edit thing
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waysider
I'm sorry if my answer appeared to be flippant. I certainly didn't mean it to be so. But,this question is a bit like the old question of whether or not God can make a rock that is too big for himself to lift.Anyhow, if you really want to explore this question, you first have to understand that our modern day concept of "satan" is not derived from the Bible.
The Real Devil
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cman
Finding who our satan is, as well as our god.
Damned if I do or do not.
Figuring out the who, what, where of God.
As sirguessalot's thread points out.
Will also help with the Satan deal you speak of.
If God and I can love Satan,
then I figured out who, what, where is Satan.
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RottieGrrrl
Ah, this edit thing is driving me crazy. Let me try this again, hold on.
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RottieGrrrl
Okay, waysider. thanks for coming back and clearing things up. :) I am reading the link you provided, and I'm like, damn, this philosophy sounds awfuly familiar, and then I look up the author, Duncan Heaster, and he's a christidelphian!
The reason I put and exclamation point at the end of that is because about 3 blocks away from me stands probably the only Christidelphian "church" in the USA. They usually have home fellowships, like the Way. And the reason I know about them is because I checked them out. I was curious about this "church" that although they don't go out knocking on doors trying to win others to their faith, they like are so closed off from the community, it's just weird.So I checked them out on google, years ago, and was intrigued that they don't believe in the trinity, like the Way, but then their beliefs get even stranger to me.
They don't believe in the devil, they think man is the cause of his own sins. Kind of hard to go along with their views, since half the bible is about the devil.
Anyway, I'll read more later, I have to go grill my chicken wings.
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WordWolf
Let me get back to you in a few days. I don't have time to give this the attention it warrants right now.
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RottieGrrrl
Blessings WW! Love to hear what you have to say, as usual. :)
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geisha779
The beatitudes are antithetical to worldly wisdom.
You seem to have answered your own question here. . . . and very well too. "I think the idea of loving satan can be very dangerous, to the point of being passive towards evil."
Scripture does not directly address your question about Satan, but the answer is found in understanding the attributes and character of God. . . . as best as we are able. Because God is love does that mean he cannot hate evil?
For You are not a God who delights in wickedness;
evil cannot lodge with You.
The boastful cannot stand in Your presence;
You hate all evildoers. Psalm 5:4,5
You seem to understand the issues with the line of reasoning you are examining. . . . What might be helpful for you is to start reading some good apologetics or even invest in an apologetics bible. The Apologetics Study Bible is really a good tool. . . it is the Holman Christian Standard version. It addresses many of the issues that come up when post modern thinking is applied to biblical interpretation.
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RottieGrrrl
Wonderful scripture, geisha:
I didn't even know really, what apologetics meant, though I've heard the term a hundred times, and I looked on Amazon and saw the bible you are talking about. Thank you for the scripture and your answer. :)
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cman
who, what, where
is satan, now
if it's unknown
how would we know
the initial response is to not love the unknown
usually
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RottieGrrrl
Once again. I am making it quite clear what satan I am talking about. I'd really like to keep this on track. Thanks. :)
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markomalley
First of all, I don't know about "Touched by an Angel." It's been a long, long time since I've seen that show.
Having said that, you may wish to recall the prophecy from Ezekiel 28:
We must remember that God is love (1 John 4:8) -- so I would submit that, other than a condescension made to help primitive man understand, God is organically incapable of hate. If He is capable of hate, then God could not be described as "love."
Lucifer is a created being and all that God created was good (1 Tim 4:4). The passage above analogizes Lucifer's state in the beginning, at the moment of his creation. So it would be safe to say that God loved Satan at the time. Consider this:
The context of this verse, of course, is to Noah after the flood; but it goes to show that God is faithful: if one considers all of the evil perpetrated by man since the flood, it would take tremendous longsuffering to not repent of that decision.
So I don't see that God would change His mind about Lucifer, even considering the rebellion that Lucifer committed.
But it's also obvious that God recognized from the beginning that Lucifer would do what he did. After all, He's had the lake of fire waiting for a while (Mat 25:41: Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;). Angels aren't known for saying they're sorry and amending their ways, either (be they angels of God or the devil and his minions. As St John of Damscus said about 1,300 years ago: "what in the case of man is death is a fall in the case of angels. For after the fall there is no possibility of repentance for them, just as after death there is for men no repentance."
So do I think that God loves Satan? Yes. God is Love.
Do I think that God is trying to get Satan to repent? No. The ability for regret and contrition is a grace given to man, not one given to angels.
Do I think that God regrets having created Satan? God knew from the beginning what would happen and if he would repent of it, he wouldn't have created those angels to begin with.
Do I think that in the real world, a matronly Della Reeves type angel would say, "God loves you too" to Satan? No. There is absolutely no indication of such behavior by the Lord or any of the Angels in the real world. Such a statement might be made to a really bad man...such a statement might be made to a man who was possessed by the Devil...but a physical manifestation of the Devil? No, because such a statement would imply that the receiver could be softened or made to feel sorrow, which neither an angel nor a demon is capable of.
In my opinion. For what it's worth.
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RottieGrrrl
Mark: very much appreciated and very very much worth reading several times over, and getting scripture out. Thanks a bunch. :)
*edited because I can't spell...again.
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RottieGrrrl
By the way, Although I don't believe God can hate like the devil, I do believe that God can, and does feel utter contempt for people at times,(or perhaps just for the things they do?) and for the devil and his army. I say this from my own personal experience. Hate is too strong a word to use for certain people and the way I have felt about them, and I know I could never feel the pure hate of the devil. I've certainly seen a few people pass in my life that I thought the world was a better place without, and couldn't muster any tears for them. But I've also felt utter contempt, which is far from hate, but it is a intense dislike, and lack of respect. Just throwing that out there. Now that this thread has got me thinking.
Well now I'm comparing how I feel to how I think God should feel and that isn't right either. Sigh.
*edited because I don't know how to work the edit feature.
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RottieGrrrl
Don't you think that an angel of God can feel sorrow though?
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geisha779
Know that Yahweh your God is God, the faithful God who keeps His gracious covenant loyalty for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commands. But He directly pays back and destroys those who hate Him. He will not hesitate to directly pay back the one who hates Him. Deuteronomy 7: 9,10
Well, if God is like that towards men who hate him, how bad is it going to be for one who cannot repent?
Does it really stand to reason that because God is love, He does not hate things? The bible says He hates things and that is just as true as that He is love.
Is it really wrong to hate evil?
How does that make Him any LESS loving?
It doesn't . . . God's love is not tolerance for anything and everything. . . and everyone including Satan. . . not even close. God is love and God is just, Holy, Righteous, and promises to avenge evil. . . no?
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
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TrustAndObey
I can share with you what I believe, but it's only what I have comprehended from my limited perspective and time with the Lord.. So it is only something to consider if you wish...
The Christian scriptures say that God is love, as it is stated twice in 1 John 4. So this is who God is, and whom/what He has revealed of himself to us. Malachi 3 also states that God does not change, so this God of love is the same yesterday, today , and forever. His love does not change.
I think also of John 1:3. However I must explain my understanding of this since there are many different understandings here. John 1 speaks of the logos. God's logos. And in Greek this logos is different than God's rhema. The Old Testament laws were written in stone and unchangeable. THEY were rhema. Specific detailed words. And in the Old Testament, there was showbread that was replaced daily with new and the old was by law only to be eaten by the priests. THIS was the law. THIS WAS RHEMA. But David was hungry (Mark 2:25) and this showbread was given to him by the priests which was NOT lawful, yet it was not considered sin. Why? Because of the logos!! God's logos is His heart, his intent, his purpose, his love. David had a need, and God's laws, the rhema, doesn't stop God's heart, His love, His desire from overriding the written rhema. All the law was given with a purpose, a heart, a logos intent. Not a black and white scripted rhema that has no life.
So in John 1:3 we read that 'All things were made by God's logos. [The same logos that was from the beginning with God of v2 and v1. God's words, but not rhema, his logos. His intent, his heart, his desires] and without God's logos [His desire or intent], nothing was made that was made. [John 1 is sort of a reference to Genesis, where in the beginning God said, His words - his heart - his desire, let there be light, and light was. And nothing was made without God's logos - His heart desire for it to be so.].
I'm trying to set a preface here, so I'm sorry if it is a little too much. I'm trying to share where my thoughts are so I have to add a bit detail. Not doctrine, not rhema, not necessarily 'It Is Written', but where my thinking is on the subject, which is subjective.
We read in the Old Testament how God's heart, his logos, was for the wicked to change their ways. Ezekiel 33:11 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked. but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways, for why will ye die?'
God pleads for the wicked to change. And I believe that is his heart for all his creation. Be it angel, man, and beast alike. He changes not! And He created all things with a purpose. But when His own creation turns from Him, and the purpose it was created, it dies. Not because God desires it so, but it can not live of itself. Anymore than a car can "try" and act and do something it was not intended to do, it will fail. So God's creation tries to do that which it was not created to do. We pay the penalty of 'sin' which is nothing more than walking away from that purpose which our own body was created for. And God knew that would happen. He knew Satan and some angels would also. And His(God's) cry always is, turn, turn from your own ways, for why should you die? Why should you kill yourself? I created you for this purpose, why turn away and die? He created Satan for a purpose, why turn away and die!
I think love also sometimes is misunderstood. Many think of it as an emotion or a feeling. A thought, or a desire. But there is where I like the old KJV translation of agape into 'charity'. It's not just a thought, but an action. It is taking care of, ie. loving, caring for, meeting the needs of whatever one 'loves'.
And in this, God has never stopped loving His creation. He cares for and meets the needs, just as the sun shines on the righteous and unrighteous, as does the rain. But as many parents sometimes find out too late, it is sometimes better to withhold 'items' from your kids, rather than giving them everything they crave and lust for. It's a matter of what do they need. Sometime like David, he was hungry and in need, and it was fine for him to eat that which was unlawful. Not rhema, but logos. God who is perfect, knows what his creation needs and cares for it as the perfect Father. I believe that includes Satan. That doesn't mean He is an enabler though, anymore than a parent learns not to be an enabler for their kids bad habits. But it also means, the adversary is allowed to live that he might turn, or else, the writing, the rhema, has been written, He will die, unless he changes.
Jeremiah 18:8 "If that nation, against whom I have pronounced [destruction], turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them."
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RottieGrrrl
Exellent points, geisha. But there has to be different meanings to the word "hate" Pure hate comes from the devil. I don't think a human can possibly comprehend that kind of hate, unless they were possessed. The way that God "hates" things has got to be different than what the devil IS.
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TrustAndObey
In question to how can God hate. Is where I tried to explain my thoughts on love. Hate is not an action such as love. It is a feeling. An emotion. And while that emotion can turn to an action, it is not in of itself. Whereas the love, agape specifically, is not like the English word love, but rather is defined by God in 1 Cor 13 as action, call it charity, rather than an emotion or a feeling, such as hate. Thus it's like comparing an apple with an orange. A feeling/emotion with an action... God can love and hate. He can love and dislike. He can love, and embrace.
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geisha779
The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night. (Nahum 1:2-8 )
Sounds like an action to me.
Does it stand to reason that because God is love. . . . he would purely hate evil? Would that be wrong? Would that make God ANY less love because He hated evil? No, not at all. How could it? If God is all good . . . He would HAVE to hate evil.
Consider what David says in Psalm 139
0 For they speak against You wickedly;
Your enemies take Your name in vain.
21 Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred;
I count them my enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
Try me, and know my anxieties;
24 And see if there is any wicked way in me,
And lead me in the way everlasting.
After he tells God he hates God's enemies with perfect hatred. . . he then asks God to search his heart!! Was David wicked for telling God he hated with perfect hatred? No.
We love OUR enemies. . . . but do we love that which stands opposed to God?
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geisha779
And don't forget that it is GOD who is righteous. That is where the right comes from. . . . it is often paradoxical to what we think right should be.
Satan hates all that is holy and good. . . . the bible says God hates evil. . . there is a difference. . . one is evil the other righteous or right.
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
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