Cool topic Twinky. That's very stand up of your church to take that approach I must say. Good sign right off the bat.
What I see in corporate America from my little perch-
The statement "strong teams are not easy to run" is something I would agree with 200 per cent. I work with a group of people that are passionate, highly creative and motivated. There's often a lot of churn around the work we do and the reaction from those we work with and even for isn't always warm and fuzzy. Still, we do have successes and reward the high-profile train wreck failures too. If you tell someone to take chances you can't shoot them if they do and fail. So there's a lot of learning going on all the time. Easy no. Not. But kinda fun sometimes.
The "team" models I use and am part of are less leadership oriented. The old sports oriented "win one for the Gipper" model is linear and too slow in any kind of highly competitive environment and you spend a lot of effort performing up the ladder/down the ladder processes. The leader/follower kinds of teams work for certain things and are good early on where an effort is new. Once there's some time and experience into it you almost always need to adjust and allow participants to grow and expand.
Equitable, peer-to-peer teams is what I prefer to have and be part of. Project management is defined up front and the disciplines and requirements of the processes are worked through within the team, understood, adjusted if need be and agreed upon. Once that's ready there's less dependency on a single "leader" because basically everyone's leading the effort, everyone owns the outcomes and their part in it.
Fast, flexible, focused. While I work in a professional environment there's no great devotion to formality and I like that. The environment's one where anyone can reach the CEO directly and have a discussion, make a point or suggestion and the means to do that are set up and available. LIkewise at all levels of the company, it's more peer to peer than it once was. It's a work in progress but there's been a lot of progress the last couple years and it's great to be a part of it.
The church I attend when I do is somewhat similar. The pastor's the pastor but he's down to earth and accessible to those who participate. He's not the "Answer Guy" in that he doesn't appear to present himself as a know it all or particularly high on the spiritual-food-chain. That's why we go there when we do, it's reflected in the people and in what he does.
There's so much more to be gained by working collaboratively not combatively. Seems to me to be the gospel model. Didn't JC tell his buddies: "Quit fighting and figuring out who's the greatest among you. Just get out there and do the job. You-all figure out how to do the job, get on and do it with your partner, and just let me know the results."
And the 70 returned with joy...
(Dunno what Joy thought about it, perhaps she fancied hanging out with a load of rather interesting characters!)
Anyway, they weren't micro-managed, just allowed to get on with their assigned tasks using their own unique characters and abilities.
I suppose actually we are clones, in a way. Clones in heart and focus. But not clones in thinking processes or actions.
I see this kind of thing in music a lot, too. Over the years I've played in a lot of different groups, bands, as an accompaniest, etc. etc.
I've got a couple friends who play in very good local "cover" bands, one that does all Tom Petty music. I like his stuff, always have and it's fun to see these guys knock that stuff out. They keep pretty much to the original sound and add their own flavor to it. They're all great musicians and do other work outside that band but that's their bread and butter so to speak. It's a "clone" sound, they can't deviate too far from the original sounds and part of the challenge is to find those sounds and duplicate them and work with the arrangements. But the deal is, you can't do that and do it well without knowing a lot more than just that.
Every musician has their influences and the foundation they've learned to become accomplished, whatever that music is. You can learn and study all kinds of different music and apply it back to your own stuff. But that's key - every musician eventually develops their "own" sound that's informed and built on what they've learned.
But there's an old saying that working musicians have to apply and it goes "you play the gig you're on". If it's standards, don't crank up to 10 and do rock, lay back and play the parts. If it's a jazz trio, listen, think arrangements and how to mesh. If it's a blues band get down and bluesy, don't rip off into jazz-fusion land every turn around. It's all about context and keeping with the style and doing what needs to be done so the gig goes well. Do it well and you get calls. Do it badly, you get advice. Ignore it, you fail.
To do your "own" stuff, you get people together and do that. If you're a jerk word gets around. A gig is a gig but if you have the choice you choose to work with the best people and musicians and balance the stress level out.
Cooperation - music is all about people working together, individual effort, mutual support and being able to both follow direction, work with others and lead when that's your shot to do so.
Nothing's worse than a showboat whose ego drives everyone else nuts except maybe a guy who won't help others. Everyone's had that tough gig, a first time out, or found themselves in over their head. Musician's tend to help each other along when they can. In general working musician's are pretty laid back and stand up about how they approach their work. You have to be - if you're undependable, can't make the music or the changes and are difficult to be around no one will want to work with you.
To me that's all very much like life and work in general. There's ups and downs but you strive to hit a pace and keep it going, make friends, help others succeed and respect others. Steer clear of bad situations, know your limits, do your thing. :)
True, Bolshevik, emergency situations do require someone to take overall charge, to avoid confusion and duplication.
There weren't really emergencies in the Way except of their own manufacture. People, especially in-rez Corps, were oppressed very badly and sometimes cracked or got into highly stressed conditions. Then it became an "emergency" with either everyone buzzing round, or more face-meltings; maybe both. Very little idea of not squashing people into a particular mold or letting them become "transformed" at their own rate. Handling people with a lighter touch has got to be better.
"Trust is earned."
LCM used to say that a lot. Usually after a face-melting followed by a humiliating grovel back into favor. Or some Corps person who had been put "on probation" for a while - so that they could "earn" trust again.
In fact, "earning trust" became almost another weapon exercized by leadership against their minions.
i can think of one of my Corps bros who did something fairly inoffensive "wrong"; after a face-melting and then "grace" from LCM, has so "earned trust" that he is now (or was) a high-up leader and reports of him that I've seen here show him to have become a serious abuser in his own right. In other words, he has become a clone.
But this is a two-way street, isn't it? We were required to trust leadership. After all, they'd already proved themselves - to very top leadership.
There was an expectation that all Corps were to be trusted and had earned that trust and respect. Many of them were in fact worthy of the trust. Regrettably there were also abusers who were Corps, people who defiled the trust by the way they treated spouses, children, and twiggies.
Cloning is such an abuse of God. Because he formed us individually. Gave us abilities and talents and skills that surely he would like us to use. Because each one of us can outreach to different communities, people, individuals. What works for Freddie to hear the word won't work for Freda.
Proverbs says in two places that "in the multitude of counsellors there is safety" and in a further place, that "in the multitude of counsellors [purposes] are established."
That means listening to different voices, different opinions. Different views. Listening to those makes a team strong, not weak.
1 Kings 22 records a very interesting interchange - Ahab the king of Israel has all his prophets (yes-men) supporting his plan of action. Jehoshaphat king of Judah isn't convinced and calls for the one man that he knows will say different ("There is yet one man, Micaiah the son of Imlah, by whom we may enquire of the LORD: but I hate him; for he doth not prophesy good concerning me, but evil.") Micaiah wasn't a yes-man so wasn't on the team. Ahab didn't listen to Micaiah's advice (prophecy) - and got himself killed.
Ahab's death was prophesied long before...but did it have to happen them? Had Ahab heeded the advice of the non-clone...he might have lived another day.
It's kind of interesting to think of that, and "leader-clone teams" in light of the current situation in the middle East (not that I want to take this into politics or anything) where moderate voices have been quashed and dictators have accreted power. Now there is significant unrest in Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan, Yemen and other like countries. Who knows where next? Because these leaders don't listen to the voices of moderates who advise that the general populace shouldn't be treated in oppressive ways.
Earning trust - right on. That works both ways doesn't it? It doesn't work if the person saying it demands you give it unearned while they expect YOU to earn it from them. Or vice versa which is the same thing I guess, from different sides.
In life many things are breakable, most things I would say. Unbroken until....they break. And they do and they will.
Not everything but I think finding out what will and won't is necessary to succeed on any level.
Trust is an ongoing effort when it comes to building it. Part of the build is dealing with breakdowns, failures, misunderstandings, clear understandings. How do we do that, react, respond ourselves? What are the processes we use to continue? When do we stop?
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socks
Cool topic Twinky. That's very stand up of your church to take that approach I must say. Good sign right off the bat.
What I see in corporate America from my little perch-
The statement "strong teams are not easy to run" is something I would agree with 200 per cent. I work with a group of people that are passionate, highly creative and motivated. There's often a lot of churn around the work we do and the reaction from those we work with and even for isn't always warm and fuzzy. Still, we do have successes and reward the high-profile train wreck failures too. If you tell someone to take chances you can't shoot them if they do and fail. So there's a lot of learning going on all the time. Easy no. Not. But kinda fun sometimes.
The "team" models I use and am part of are less leadership oriented. The old sports oriented "win one for the Gipper" model is linear and too slow in any kind of highly competitive environment and you spend a lot of effort performing up the ladder/down the ladder processes. The leader/follower kinds of teams work for certain things and are good early on where an effort is new. Once there's some time and experience into it you almost always need to adjust and allow participants to grow and expand.
Equitable, peer-to-peer teams is what I prefer to have and be part of. Project management is defined up front and the disciplines and requirements of the processes are worked through within the team, understood, adjusted if need be and agreed upon. Once that's ready there's less dependency on a single "leader" because basically everyone's leading the effort, everyone owns the outcomes and their part in it.
Fast, flexible, focused. While I work in a professional environment there's no great devotion to formality and I like that. The environment's one where anyone can reach the CEO directly and have a discussion, make a point or suggestion and the means to do that are set up and available. LIkewise at all levels of the company, it's more peer to peer than it once was. It's a work in progress but there's been a lot of progress the last couple years and it's great to be a part of it.
The church I attend when I do is somewhat similar. The pastor's the pastor but he's down to earth and accessible to those who participate. He's not the "Answer Guy" in that he doesn't appear to present himself as a know it all or particularly high on the spiritual-food-chain. That's why we go there when we do, it's reflected in the people and in what he does.
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Twinky
Your pastor sounds good, Socks.
The business where you work sounds good, too.
There's so much more to be gained by working collaboratively not combatively. Seems to me to be the gospel model. Didn't JC tell his buddies: "Quit fighting and figuring out who's the greatest among you. Just get out there and do the job. You-all figure out how to do the job, get on and do it with your partner, and just let me know the results."
And the 70 returned with joy...
(Dunno what Joy thought about it, perhaps she fancied hanging out with a load of rather interesting characters!)
Anyway, they weren't micro-managed, just allowed to get on with their assigned tasks using their own unique characters and abilities.
I suppose actually we are clones, in a way. Clones in heart and focus. But not clones in thinking processes or actions.
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socks
I see this kind of thing in music a lot, too. Over the years I've played in a lot of different groups, bands, as an accompaniest, etc. etc.
I've got a couple friends who play in very good local "cover" bands, one that does all Tom Petty music. I like his stuff, always have and it's fun to see these guys knock that stuff out. They keep pretty much to the original sound and add their own flavor to it. They're all great musicians and do other work outside that band but that's their bread and butter so to speak. It's a "clone" sound, they can't deviate too far from the original sounds and part of the challenge is to find those sounds and duplicate them and work with the arrangements. But the deal is, you can't do that and do it well without knowing a lot more than just that.
Every musician has their influences and the foundation they've learned to become accomplished, whatever that music is. You can learn and study all kinds of different music and apply it back to your own stuff. But that's key - every musician eventually develops their "own" sound that's informed and built on what they've learned.
But there's an old saying that working musicians have to apply and it goes "you play the gig you're on". If it's standards, don't crank up to 10 and do rock, lay back and play the parts. If it's a jazz trio, listen, think arrangements and how to mesh. If it's a blues band get down and bluesy, don't rip off into jazz-fusion land every turn around. It's all about context and keeping with the style and doing what needs to be done so the gig goes well. Do it well and you get calls. Do it badly, you get advice. Ignore it, you fail.
To do your "own" stuff, you get people together and do that. If you're a jerk word gets around. A gig is a gig but if you have the choice you choose to work with the best people and musicians and balance the stress level out.
Cooperation - music is all about people working together, individual effort, mutual support and being able to both follow direction, work with others and lead when that's your shot to do so.
Nothing's worse than a showboat whose ego drives everyone else nuts except maybe a guy who won't help others. Everyone's had that tough gig, a first time out, or found themselves in over their head. Musician's tend to help each other along when they can. In general working musician's are pretty laid back and stand up about how they approach their work. You have to be - if you're undependable, can't make the music or the changes and are difficult to be around no one will want to work with you.
To me that's all very much like life and work in general. There's ups and downs but you strive to hit a pace and keep it going, make friends, help others succeed and respect others. Steer clear of bad situations, know your limits, do your thing. :)
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Bolshevik
Interesting topic
Emergency situations require a central leader
Usually there is a lot of practice and a working relationship built prior
Trust is earned
In Da Vey . . . There was always an emergency . . .
A new emergency every three seconds
Trust was expected
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Twinky
True, Bolshevik, emergency situations do require someone to take overall charge, to avoid confusion and duplication.
There weren't really emergencies in the Way except of their own manufacture. People, especially in-rez Corps, were oppressed very badly and sometimes cracked or got into highly stressed conditions. Then it became an "emergency" with either everyone buzzing round, or more face-meltings; maybe both. Very little idea of not squashing people into a particular mold or letting them become "transformed" at their own rate. Handling people with a lighter touch has got to be better.
"Trust is earned."
LCM used to say that a lot. Usually after a face-melting followed by a humiliating grovel back into favor. Or some Corps person who had been put "on probation" for a while - so that they could "earn" trust again.
In fact, "earning trust" became almost another weapon exercized by leadership against their minions.
i can think of one of my Corps bros who did something fairly inoffensive "wrong"; after a face-melting and then "grace" from LCM, has so "earned trust" that he is now (or was) a high-up leader and reports of him that I've seen here show him to have become a serious abuser in his own right. In other words, he has become a clone.
But this is a two-way street, isn't it? We were required to trust leadership. After all, they'd already proved themselves - to very top leadership.
There was an expectation that all Corps were to be trusted and had earned that trust and respect. Many of them were in fact worthy of the trust. Regrettably there were also abusers who were Corps, people who defiled the trust by the way they treated spouses, children, and twiggies.
Cloning is such an abuse of God. Because he formed us individually. Gave us abilities and talents and skills that surely he would like us to use. Because each one of us can outreach to different communities, people, individuals. What works for Freddie to hear the word won't work for Freda.
Proverbs says in two places that "in the multitude of counsellors there is safety" and in a further place, that "in the multitude of counsellors [purposes] are established."
That means listening to different voices, different opinions. Different views. Listening to those makes a team strong, not weak.
1 Kings 22 records a very interesting interchange - Ahab the king of Israel has all his prophets (yes-men) supporting his plan of action. Jehoshaphat king of Judah isn't convinced and calls for the one man that he knows will say different ("There is yet one man, Micaiah the son of Imlah, by whom we may enquire of the LORD: but I hate him; for he doth not prophesy good concerning me, but evil.") Micaiah wasn't a yes-man so wasn't on the team. Ahab didn't listen to Micaiah's advice (prophecy) - and got himself killed.
Ahab's death was prophesied long before...but did it have to happen them? Had Ahab heeded the advice of the non-clone...he might have lived another day.
It's kind of interesting to think of that, and "leader-clone teams" in light of the current situation in the middle East (not that I want to take this into politics or anything) where moderate voices have been quashed and dictators have accreted power. Now there is significant unrest in Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan, Yemen and other like countries. Who knows where next? Because these leaders don't listen to the voices of moderates who advise that the general populace shouldn't be treated in oppressive ways.
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socks
"returned with Joy"...........
Emergencies - great example.
Earning trust - right on. That works both ways doesn't it? It doesn't work if the person saying it demands you give it unearned while they expect YOU to earn it from them. Or vice versa which is the same thing I guess, from different sides.
In life many things are breakable, most things I would say. Unbroken until....they break. And they do and they will.
Not everything but I think finding out what will and won't is necessary to succeed on any level.
Trust is an ongoing effort when it comes to building it. Part of the build is dealing with breakdowns, failures, misunderstandings, clear understandings. How do we do that, react, respond ourselves? What are the processes we use to continue? When do we stop?
Therein lies the crux of the biscuit, methinks.
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JavaJane
There were DTA retemories for mistrusting leadership... Or something to do with leadership... Can't remember what they were.
Guess that's a good thing!
Anyone else remember that?
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WordWolf
I've seen some amazing stories here, which, in hindsight, really should come as no shock.
How, especially back in the Groovy Christian era, everybody looked different....
then they spent time at hq and started carrying the same briefcases, etc.
And eventually the hairstyles were becoming standardized.
I've read about how lcm tried to grow a sad little mustache-
and then the drones all tried to grow them?
Of course, now it's the opposite, and mustaches have been vanishing off faces
like personalities behind the faces.
And lcm himself documented how vpw EXPECTED lcm to imitate him- using ministry
money to buy lcm a motorcycle..... only those in denial should be surprised
vpw was trying to do this all through the 70s.
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socks
What's DTA stand for?
Groovey hippeez? Lesee, when was that, late '60's? Early 70's?
That's a loooong time ago, seems like now. Long time. A go.
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Bolshevik
Defeating The Adversary
How?
same as always . . .
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