The context IS humility(well stated WW) we are given the greatest example of humility in Jesus Christ and exhorted to have the same mind. We are also assured that it is GOD at work after we are exhorted to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling......which is simply another way of saying "take this very seriously". God is primary, it is HIS work and HIS will. Paul is speaking to a fairly together Church in comparison to some of the others and he isn't speaking of the salvation that has already been accomplished and is by grace....it is a fuller participation in God's will, grace, and sanctification. Something mature Christians would understand. He reminded them they had obeyed in the past not only when he was around but while he was absent. They understood what he was saying.
None of what Paul wrote implies we should be afraid or working TOWARDS our own salvation, rather it is a loving and tender exhortation to continue growing. It is really comforting. Much of the context is also unity because not only are Christians to participate more fully in God's plan, but we are to do it together.
Wierwille taught that fear is believing in reverse, that it is sand in the machinery of life, that is always encases, always enslaves, always binds.
Based on this one-dimensional definition, Wierwille taught that we should not fear God.
I believe, because of what the Bible actually says about fear, that Wierwille's beliefs and teachings about "not fearing God" are at the root of all the evil perpetrated by Wierwille and his followers.
I believe this because I have seen the results in my own heart and in the fruit of my life, in the fruit of CES/STFI/TLTF, and in the fruit of TWI.
What you write about humility is accurate, WordWolf, because humility is the reflexive component in the subject of the fear. The Pavlovian definition of fear, that it is nothing more than a negative response, goes wrong the same way Wierwille's definition went wrong, because it also is a one-dimensional definition of fear. The definition of fear that can be inferred from its uses in the Bible, particularly in the Old Testament, is multi-dimensional, and takes into account the salutary effect of fear that inclines the subject to humility and obedience.
Wierwille made hash of the Word of God because he was not inclined to humility and obedience. He did not keep the fear of God before his eyes. Wierwille drugged and raped young women because he was not inclined to humility and obedience. He did not keep the fear of God before his eyes.
I signed the Momentus hold-harmless agreement, and stayed faithful to that agreement for as long as I did, because I feared men more than I feared God. I was inclined to humility and obedience before Lynn and Toccini, rather than before God. I did not keep the fear of God before my eyes. When I finally got humble enough to ask "Lord, why is my life so f...ed up?" He answered me, and showed me how to get out from under the curse I had brought on myself. And His answer involved keeping the fear of God before my eyes.
Why did Christian Educational Services get so screwed up they had to change their name? Why did they then go on to produce the debacle that ended the association of John, John and Mark? Because they were not inclined to humility and obedience. They did not keep the fear of God before their eyes.
How did people get so screwed up in Corps training? Because we were taught to fear Wierwille and his underlings rather than God. We had the fear of Wierwille and his underlings before our eyes, whether we liked it or not.
How can the people who are so adamantly stuck in TWI be so blind to the evil around and within them? Because they STILL fear Wierwille, they are STILL inclined to be humble and obedient to the false image of a dead man rather than to God. Talk about keeping the fear of Wierwille before their eyes! It certainly ain't the fear of God!
Why do so many people comment that the most outstanding feature of unreconstructed wayfers with whom they come in contact is arrogance? Because pride and arrogance are the polar opposites of the fear of God. The Bible says as much in Proverbs 8:13. That means that the one-dimensional definitions of fear presented both by Wierwille and Pavlov are insufficient to cover the ways in which the Bible uses the word "fear".
If we go back and actually read what the Bible says about the fear of God, we notice it makes a big deal about whether or not a person keeps the fear of God "before his eyes".
I think "keeping something before ones eyes" means paying conscious, deliberate, habitual attention to the thing. We need to pay conscious, deliberate, habitual, attention to the fear of God, that is, we need to pay conscious, deliberate, habitual attention to the things of God that incline us to humility and obedience. The best way to do that is to be genuinely thankful for the things God is doing for us right here and now, and the proper expression of genuine thankfulness is genuine worship. Genuine worship needs to be a conscious, deliberate, habitual part of our lives if we are to truly say we fear God.
Wierwille taught that fear is believing in reverse, that it is sand in the machinery of life, that is always encases, always enslaves, always binds.
Based on this one-dimensional definition, Wierwille taught that we should not fear God.
I believe, because of what the Bible actually says about fear, that Wierwille's beliefs and teachings about "not fearing God" are at the root of all the evil perpetrated by Wierwille and his followers.
I believe this because I have seen the results in my own heart and in the fruit of my life, in the fruit of CES/STFI/TLTF, and in the fruit of TWI.
What you write about humility is accurate, WordWolf, because humility is the reflexive component in the subject of the fear. The Pavlovian definition of fear, that it is nothing more than a negative response, goes wrong the same way Wierwille's definition went wrong, because it also is a one-dimensional definition of fear. The definition of fear that can be inferred from its uses in the Bible, particularly in the Old Testament, is multi-dimensional, and takes into account the salutary effect of fear that inclines the subject to humility and obedience.
Wierwille made hash of the Word of God because he was not inclined to humility and obedience. He did not keep the fear of God before his eyes. Wierwille drugged and raped young women because he was not inclined to humility and obedience. He did not keep the fear of God before his eyes.
I signed the Momentus hold-harmless agreement, and stayed faithful to that agreement for as long as I did, because I feared men more than I feared God. I was inclined to humility and obedience before Lynn and Toccini, rather than before God. I did not keep the fear of God before my eyes. When I finally got humble enough to ask "Lord, why is my life so f...ed up?" He answered me, and showed me how to get out from under the curse I had brought on myself. And His answer involved keeping the fear of God before my eyes.
Why did Christian Educational Services get so screwed up they had to change their name? Why did they then go on to produce the debacle that ended the association of John, John and Mark? Because they were not inclined to humility and obedience. They did not keep the fear of God before their eyes.
How did people get so screwed up in Corps training? Because we were taught to fear Wierwille and his underlings rather than God. We had the fear of Wierwille and his underlings before our eyes, whether we liked it or not.
How can the people who are so adamantly stuck in TWI be so blind to the evil around and within them? Because they STILL fear Wierwille, they are STILL inclined to be humble and obedient to the false image of a dead man rather than to God. Talk about keeping the fear of Wierwillebefore their eyes! It certainly ain't the fear of God!
Why do so many people comment that the most outstanding feature of unreconstructed wayfers with whom they come in contact is arrogance? Because pride and arrogance are the polar opposites of the fear of God. The Bible says as much in Proverbs 8:13. That means that the one-dimensional definitions of fear presented both by Wierwille and Pavlov are insufficient to cover the ways in which the Bible uses the word "fear".
If we go back and actually read what the Bible says about the fear of God, we notice it makes a big deal about whether or not a person keeps the fear of God "before his eyes".
I think "keeping something before ones eyes" means paying conscious, deliberate, habitual attention to the thing. We need to pay conscious, deliberate, habitual, attention to the fear of God, that is, we need to pay conscious, deliberate, habitual attention to the things of God that incline us to humility and obedience. The best way to do that is to be genuinely thankful for the things God is doing for us right here and now, and the proper expression of genuine thankfulness is genuine worship. Genuine worship needs to be a conscious, deliberate, habitual part of our lives if we are to truly say we fear God.
Love,
Steve
{b]I'd like to have a discussion on the actual topic.
You know, the one where we discuss what the Bible says and what the Bible means.
Quite a few DIVERSE groups who actually care about the Bible render "fear of God" as a concept
COMPLETELY UNRELATED to the modern meaning of "fear". We could discuss that, or we could
discuss why some Bibles use words like "respect" when translating "phobos"- and that's not
the work of ex-twi'ers.
However, it seems this thread just can't progress without one of the posters being determined
to keep introducing and RE-introducing vpw into the discussion, and refuting the claims that
everyone already agrees are refuted. Is this because the poster is trying to fog the issue
by misrepresenting the others? I strongly doubt it. Is the poster unable to approach this
subject without it revolving around vpw? I'm seeing sufficient evidence to believe it's that
rather than something else.
Can someone signal me when (if) this thread can depart from revolving around vpw for at least
Steve u made this statement that makes a great point -
The language of Proverbs 3 speaks of trust and fear in dynamic terms. When we trust the LORD, He directs our paths. When we stray off the paths the LORD sets before us, then the fear of the LORD moves us to depart from evil, that is, to get back on the right path.
God is therefore not someone to be feared, I should want to hear from Him to help me stay on the path.
Psalm 111:10 says exactly that - all those who obey HIs commandments will have wisdom, "the fear of the Lord". The fear of the Lord therefore is present in those who do His commandments, not those who don't.
Those who don't, don't care, as you say Steve.
The "fear of the Lord" moves me to depart from evil - how? By knowing that God doesn't want that, doesn't like it. Evil will hurt me.
Also - many of the "phobos" verses deal with not comprehending what's going on - think this was mentioned earlier - storms, angels, etc. Without knowing whether I'm at risk or not - sure, I'm going to be afraid....will something hurt or kill me or what?
If wisdom comes from doing God's commandments and that gives wisdom and the beginning of wisdom is the "fear of the Lord"..........
That fear-it-might-hurt-me kind of fear isn't sustainable. Initial reaction, response, yes there could be fear but not down the long haul.
Why would I fear something I understand and where I have wisdom? If I'm doing God's commandments and relying on Him and avoiding evil, my "fear" that God will not love me, not care for me, and might hurt me should decrease.
My respect, awe, reverence, and concern for God - should increase.
The low-level fear that God will hurt me if I do evil reduces over time and I accept that God's will is going to stand either way, whether I comply or not.
O.T. or N.T., good times or bad - in all situations I "call upon the name of the Lord".
Mercy and grace are needed - not to be taken advantage of.
Soooo.....those who don't ever get down the path of obeying God's commandments to begin with and put no effort or counter productive effort against doing them - won't care, they may not know, won't care or will decide not to care.
Steve u made this statement that makes a great point -
The language of Proverbs 3 speaks of trust and fear in dynamic terms. When we trust the LORD, He directs our paths. When we stray off the paths the LORD sets before us, then the fear of the LORD moves us to depart from evil, that is, to get back on the right path.
Why would I fear something I understand and where I have wisdom? If I'm doing God's commandments and relying on Him and avoiding evil, my "fear" that God will not love me, not care for me, and might hurt me should decrease.
My respect, awe, reverence, and concern for God - should increase.
Could that be why the "Fear of God" is the Beginning of wisdom.. Once it begins, the beginning uncomfortable fear melts away into awe/reverence?
Could be, with awareness can come clarity - from death unto life, from no hope to hopeful, from cursed to blessed, from lost to found, ensnared to delivered....these kinds of contrasts are powerful. One passing from death to life would be both acutely aware of where they came from and where they've come to - thankful, humbled, elevated, inspired to reverence.
God makes the rules, not me. He is over all. That kind of authority warrants respect. If I assume that "God's hands are tied" by previous committments that He won't go back on, I have to remember that those are Big Hands. Once a person gets down the road with the Bible they should - should - learn to realize that with exTREME humility. Whether I abide by that knowledge or not, once I have come to that knowledge, at the end of the day when I close my eyes I still know what's up and what's down and where I stand in it all.
I was thinking too - hyperbole in the Bible....The bottom line with God is "no other gods before me", love Him with all our heart, as no other.
In the history of man we can see how cultures elevate their icons - gods of war, of love, of prosperity. Communities have their deities, those faces they place on the powers that be. Nations that have their gods that "go before them" and if properly treated will bring them victory.
I also picture men and women throughout time looking up and seeing the stars, the moon, the sun, the seasons, the passing of time, and wondering...
When Israel followed Jehovah they were in the midst of a world that had their own gods and that declared their greatness and power over the affairs of life and who in some scenarios could be manipulated.
I can see people of Israel taking the stance they did, that Jehovah was greater than the sun, the moon, the stars, the forces of nature and any who would dare to ascend to that role of creator and provider. That it's Jehovah who creates, destroys, brings to pass, does as He pleases, as He sees fit....The God of Israel is to be feared as one who is above all others, and where dead idols reign He will bring them all to nothing.
Given the Commandments and the way God revealed Himself, the people would have not only have seen Him that way - greater than all - but also declared Him that way because He would in fact be "the real Deal".
As we look at those writings today we can attempt to dissect them as if they were science projects - "if God causes the sun to rise and fall, then He must be working in the realm of physics and etc. etc.".....when in fact it's not meant at all that Elohim or Jehovah is presiding over the solar system and all the stars and doing all this...stuff. Rather, He is the Creator, that One from whom all creation has come and to whom all the recognition for that creation ultmately goes to.
It's just a thought and not a new one The reality on the ground would have been then as now - that God is above all and His glory comes first.
The friendship of Jehovah is with them that fear him; and he will show them his covenant. Psalm 25.14.
What kind of person may receive God's direction? They who fear God; because "the secret of Jehovah is with them that fear him, that he may make known his covenant to them" (same verse, Darby's translation). What is the meaning of "fear God"? To fear Him is to hallow His name—that is, to exalt Him. They who seek God's will with singleness of heart and obey Him absolutely are those who fear Him. To such as these will He tell His secret and show His covenant.
Before twi's input of semantic confusion in attempt to dismantle our obedience to God's so very simple command, bow down before Him, love and adore Him were simple concepts along the line of and heart and mindset responses in harmony with "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me."
vp in particular and twi in general needed to cloud and dismantle simple obedience to God Almighty because vp's goal was obedience to himself rather than to God Almighty, in my opinion.
In my opinion, teachers and leaders who yearn to see people in close relationhip with the Lord will include this basic concept in their "message," and those people who want to see their covenant with God established in their lives will simply fear Him who is most Awesome Majejsty.
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The context IS humility(well stated WW) we are given the greatest example of humility in Jesus Christ and exhorted to have the same mind. We are also assured that it is GOD at work after we are exhorted to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling......which is simply another way of saying "take this very seriously". God is primary, it is HIS work and HIS will. Paul is speaking to a fairly together Church in comparison to some of the others and he isn't speaking of the salvation that has already been accomplished and is by grace....it is a fuller participation in God's will, grace, and sanctification. Something mature Christians would understand. He reminded them they had obeyed in the past not only when he was around but while he was absent. They understood what he was saying.
None of what Paul wrote implies we should be afraid or working TOWARDS our own salvation, rather it is a loving and tender exhortation to continue growing. It is really comforting. Much of the context is also unity because not only are Christians to participate more fully in God's plan, but we are to do it together.
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Steve Lortz
Wierwille taught that fear is believing in reverse, that it is sand in the machinery of life, that is always encases, always enslaves, always binds.
Based on this one-dimensional definition, Wierwille taught that we should not fear God.
I believe, because of what the Bible actually says about fear, that Wierwille's beliefs and teachings about "not fearing God" are at the root of all the evil perpetrated by Wierwille and his followers.
I believe this because I have seen the results in my own heart and in the fruit of my life, in the fruit of CES/STFI/TLTF, and in the fruit of TWI.
What you write about humility is accurate, WordWolf, because humility is the reflexive component in the subject of the fear. The Pavlovian definition of fear, that it is nothing more than a negative response, goes wrong the same way Wierwille's definition went wrong, because it also is a one-dimensional definition of fear. The definition of fear that can be inferred from its uses in the Bible, particularly in the Old Testament, is multi-dimensional, and takes into account the salutary effect of fear that inclines the subject to humility and obedience.
Wierwille made hash of the Word of God because he was not inclined to humility and obedience. He did not keep the fear of God before his eyes. Wierwille drugged and raped young women because he was not inclined to humility and obedience. He did not keep the fear of God before his eyes.
I signed the Momentus hold-harmless agreement, and stayed faithful to that agreement for as long as I did, because I feared men more than I feared God. I was inclined to humility and obedience before Lynn and Toccini, rather than before God. I did not keep the fear of God before my eyes. When I finally got humble enough to ask "Lord, why is my life so f...ed up?" He answered me, and showed me how to get out from under the curse I had brought on myself. And His answer involved keeping the fear of God before my eyes.
Why did Christian Educational Services get so screwed up they had to change their name? Why did they then go on to produce the debacle that ended the association of John, John and Mark? Because they were not inclined to humility and obedience. They did not keep the fear of God before their eyes.
How did people get so screwed up in Corps training? Because we were taught to fear Wierwille and his underlings rather than God. We had the fear of Wierwille and his underlings before our eyes, whether we liked it or not.
How can the people who are so adamantly stuck in TWI be so blind to the evil around and within them? Because they STILL fear Wierwille, they are STILL inclined to be humble and obedient to the false image of a dead man rather than to God. Talk about keeping the fear of Wierwille before their eyes! It certainly ain't the fear of God!
Why do so many people comment that the most outstanding feature of unreconstructed wayfers with whom they come in contact is arrogance? Because pride and arrogance are the polar opposites of the fear of God. The Bible says as much in Proverbs 8:13. That means that the one-dimensional definitions of fear presented both by Wierwille and Pavlov are insufficient to cover the ways in which the Bible uses the word "fear".
If we go back and actually read what the Bible says about the fear of God, we notice it makes a big deal about whether or not a person keeps the fear of God "before his eyes".
I think "keeping something before ones eyes" means paying conscious, deliberate, habitual attention to the thing. We need to pay conscious, deliberate, habitual, attention to the fear of God, that is, we need to pay conscious, deliberate, habitual attention to the things of God that incline us to humility and obedience. The best way to do that is to be genuinely thankful for the things God is doing for us right here and now, and the proper expression of genuine thankfulness is genuine worship. Genuine worship needs to be a conscious, deliberate, habitual part of our lives if we are to truly say we fear God.
Love,
Steve
Edited by Steve LortzLink to comment
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WordWolf
{b]I'd like to have a discussion on the actual topic.
You know, the one where we discuss what the Bible says and what the Bible means.
Quite a few DIVERSE groups who actually care about the Bible render "fear of God" as a concept
COMPLETELY UNRELATED to the modern meaning of "fear". We could discuss that, or we could
discuss why some Bibles use words like "respect" when translating "phobos"- and that's not
the work of ex-twi'ers.
However, it seems this thread just can't progress without one of the posters being determined
to keep introducing and RE-introducing vpw into the discussion, and refuting the claims that
everyone already agrees are refuted. Is this because the poster is trying to fog the issue
by misrepresenting the others? I strongly doubt it. Is the poster unable to approach this
subject without it revolving around vpw? I'm seeing sufficient evidence to believe it's that
rather than something else.
Can someone signal me when (if) this thread can depart from revolving around vpw for at least
2 pages straight?[/b]
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socks
Steve u made this statement that makes a great point -
The language of Proverbs 3 speaks of trust and fear in dynamic terms. When we trust the LORD, He directs our paths. When we stray off the paths the LORD sets before us, then the fear of the LORD moves us to depart from evil, that is, to get back on the right path.
God is therefore not someone to be feared, I should want to hear from Him to help me stay on the path.
Psalm 111:10 says exactly that - all those who obey HIs commandments will have wisdom, "the fear of the Lord". The fear of the Lord therefore is present in those who do His commandments, not those who don't.
Those who don't, don't care, as you say Steve.
The "fear of the Lord" moves me to depart from evil - how? By knowing that God doesn't want that, doesn't like it. Evil will hurt me.
Also - many of the "phobos" verses deal with not comprehending what's going on - think this was mentioned earlier - storms, angels, etc. Without knowing whether I'm at risk or not - sure, I'm going to be afraid....will something hurt or kill me or what?
If wisdom comes from doing God's commandments and that gives wisdom and the beginning of wisdom is the "fear of the Lord"..........
That fear-it-might-hurt-me kind of fear isn't sustainable. Initial reaction, response, yes there could be fear but not down the long haul.
Why would I fear something I understand and where I have wisdom? If I'm doing God's commandments and relying on Him and avoiding evil, my "fear" that God will not love me, not care for me, and might hurt me should decrease.
My respect, awe, reverence, and concern for God - should increase.
The low-level fear that God will hurt me if I do evil reduces over time and I accept that God's will is going to stand either way, whether I comply or not.
O.T. or N.T., good times or bad - in all situations I "call upon the name of the Lord".
Mercy and grace are needed - not to be taken advantage of.
Soooo.....those who don't ever get down the path of obeying God's commandments to begin with and put no effort or counter productive effort against doing them - won't care, they may not know, won't care or will decide not to care.
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TrustAndObey
Could that be why the "Fear of God" is the Beginning of wisdom.. Once it begins, the beginning uncomfortable fear melts away into awe/reverence?
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socks
Could be, with awareness can come clarity - from death unto life, from no hope to hopeful, from cursed to blessed, from lost to found, ensnared to delivered....these kinds of contrasts are powerful. One passing from death to life would be both acutely aware of where they came from and where they've come to - thankful, humbled, elevated, inspired to reverence.
God makes the rules, not me. He is over all. That kind of authority warrants respect. If I assume that "God's hands are tied" by previous committments that He won't go back on, I have to remember that those are Big Hands. Once a person gets down the road with the Bible they should - should - learn to realize that with exTREME humility. Whether I abide by that knowledge or not, once I have come to that knowledge, at the end of the day when I close my eyes I still know what's up and what's down and where I stand in it all.
I was thinking too - hyperbole in the Bible....The bottom line with God is "no other gods before me", love Him with all our heart, as no other.
In the history of man we can see how cultures elevate their icons - gods of war, of love, of prosperity. Communities have their deities, those faces they place on the powers that be. Nations that have their gods that "go before them" and if properly treated will bring them victory.
I also picture men and women throughout time looking up and seeing the stars, the moon, the sun, the seasons, the passing of time, and wondering...
When Israel followed Jehovah they were in the midst of a world that had their own gods and that declared their greatness and power over the affairs of life and who in some scenarios could be manipulated.
I can see people of Israel taking the stance they did, that Jehovah was greater than the sun, the moon, the stars, the forces of nature and any who would dare to ascend to that role of creator and provider. That it's Jehovah who creates, destroys, brings to pass, does as He pleases, as He sees fit....The God of Israel is to be feared as one who is above all others, and where dead idols reign He will bring them all to nothing.
Given the Commandments and the way God revealed Himself, the people would have not only have seen Him that way - greater than all - but also declared Him that way because He would in fact be "the real Deal".
As we look at those writings today we can attempt to dissect them as if they were science projects - "if God causes the sun to rise and fall, then He must be working in the realm of physics and etc. etc.".....when in fact it's not meant at all that Elohim or Jehovah is presiding over the solar system and all the stars and doing all this...stuff. Rather, He is the Creator, that One from whom all creation has come and to whom all the recognition for that creation ultmately goes to.
It's just a thought and not a new one The reality on the ground would have been then as now - that God is above all and His glory comes first.
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geisha779
Your post reminds me of the lyrics to Amazing Grace...... Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved
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Kit Sober
Here is today's Watchman Nee devotional
Before twi's input of semantic confusion in attempt to dismantle our obedience to God's so very simple command, bow down before Him, love and adore Him were simple concepts along the line of and heart and mindset responses in harmony with "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me."
vp in particular and twi in general needed to cloud and dismantle simple obedience to God Almighty because vp's goal was obedience to himself rather than to God Almighty, in my opinion.
In my opinion, teachers and leaders who yearn to see people in close relationhip with the Lord will include this basic concept in their "message," and those people who want to see their covenant with God established in their lives will simply fear Him who is most Awesome Majejsty.
Edited by Kit SoberLink to comment
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