Wierwille liked to pretend that he arrived at his conclusions as a result of careful research, during which God would teach him the Word of God as it had not been known since the first century.
For the past two days I've been using Blue Letter Bible to do a cursory examination of the idea of "fear" in the Old Testament. It's one of the most fascinating things I've done in a long time, both for how radically different the things I am finding are from what Wierwille taught, and for the wonderfully intricate elegance of the idea.
Wierwille taught that fear is always negative, that it is believing in reverse, that it is sand in the machinery of life, that it always encases, always enslaves, always binds.
The truth is a little more complex and a lot more profitable than that!
The complete title of this thread is Fear of God, What it is? What it is NOT?
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Proverbs 8:13a
"13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate."
This doesn't mean we're supposed to look at other people and say, "Ooooo... they're evil. I hate them!" It means we're supposed to look into our own hearts, and hate the pride and arrogancy we find in our own attitudes.
Fear of God, what it is: hating the pride and arrogancy in our own hearts.
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I Samuel 12:14a
"14 ...ye will fear the LORD, and serve him, and obey his voice, and not rebel against the commandment of the LORD..."
Fear of God, what it is NOT: rebelling against the commandment of God, serving our own selves, disobeying God's voice.
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, because they could not bear what was commanded: "If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned to death." The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, "I am trembling with fear."
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens." The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our "God is a consuming fire.
What is it we are afraid of with God? What do we have to fear? That God is an all powerful and consuming fire? We recognize God and worship Him in wonder and awe as WW and others have pointed out..
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If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?
I will be the first to say it isn't always fun or pleasant to be corrected by God...to be chastened, but obedience isn't always a remedy for that. Look at Job.....all those He loves God chastens....it doesn't say all the slackers or disobedient. Trial is also how we grow in faith. It can be scary when God hides His face, but the more we grow in faith the more we know it is temporary. Obedience is important but there is no way to earn our own sanctification.....it comes from trial. God induced pressure....internal and external, but we shouldn't fear it. We actually should rejoice in it. The one thing you don't want is for God to ignore you and leave you in sin.....that is a bad sign.
"Fear of the Lord" synthesized out for me over the years to "Just don't do it." If I know the Lord says to love my neighbor, then that's what I do. If the Lord says don't steal, I don't steal. If the Lord says don't lie, I don't lie. The fear of the Lord is a wall separating me from actions which the Lord forbids. when I find myself on the other side of the wall and in sin, then I ask forgiveness and get back where I belong.
The Lord Jesus said (Matthew 14:23ff) "23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man loveme, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."
I think twi belittled and denied the fear of the Lord and made their doctrine around this simple concept so complicated because vp was committed to making a doctrine of hypocricy and propounding that it was allowable for a Christian to live a filthy way of life, and therefore he needed to belittle the fear of the Lord which should keep people from acting wickedly and living in sin.
Watchman Nee in the devotional today said,
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil. Genesis 3.5.
To God, all actions taken outside of Him are sins. "To be like God," for instance, is an excellent desire; but to attempt to do it without listening to God’s command and waiting for God’s time is sinful in His sight. How often we reckon evil things as sins but good things as righteousness. God, however, reckons things differently. Instead of differentiating good and evil by appearance, He looks into the way a thing is done. No matter how excellent it may appear to the world to be, whatever is done by the believer without seeking God’s will, waiting for His time, or depending on His power—such action is sinning in God’s sight.
This kind of fear seems to be something one can only have towards God. Fear God, meaning have a sense of awe and a healthy respect for the one spirit who created the heavens and the earth; don't forget about Him as you go about your business, that He is alive and well and still on the throne, and that He ain't done with this world yet.
One can't have that sense for any other person, place or thing. There may even be a small sense of being afraid of God too, rather like having a healthy respect for electricity. If electricity were my Father, I would have a sense of awe and a healthy respect for electricity, but I'd still be careful not to break its laws and rules for fear of being electrocuted.
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
The verse you bring up, I John 4:18, points up the truth that we can't accept a simplistic, either/or definition of fear, the way Wierwille did and taught.
If we read on to I John 5:3 we see "...this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments..."
So we can read 4:18 as: There is no fear in keeping God's commandments: but perfectly keeping God's commandments casts out fear, because fear has torment. He who fears is not made perfect in keeping God's commandments.
II Corinthians 7:1b also applies, "...let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." It is the fear of God that moves us to get rid of filthiness of the flesh and spirit.
But if the fear of God is simply, passively adoring Him, how does it move us to get rid of filthiness? (rhetorical question)
The fear of God has a reflexive component, remember, the fear of the LORD is to hate the pride and arrogancy in our own hearts!
If a person DESIRES to harbor pride and arrogancy in her or his own heart, then the fear of God can carry quite a bit of torment with it, torment that can be relieved only by becoming humble, and keeping God's commandments. Some people try to relieve the torment by ignoring the fear of God, which they do by flattering their own selves, or by redefining the fear of God as simply "respect". Or they try to deaden the torment with Drambuie and the endorphins of sexual activity. In the long run, those things don't work.
I still believe that ALL the evil perpetrated by TWI can be attributed to the truth that Wierwille did not fear God, and he taught us to do the same.
"Fear of the Lord" synthesized out for me over the years to "Just don't do it." If I know the Lord says to love my neighbor, then that's what I do. If the Lord says don't steal, I don't steal. If the Lord says don't lie, I don't lie. The fear of the Lord is a wall separating me from actions which the Lord forbids. when I find myself on the other side of the wall and in sin, then I ask forgiveness and get back where I belong.
The Lord Jesus said (Matthew 14:23ff) "23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man loveme, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."
I think twi belittled and denied the fear of the Lord and made their doctrine around this simple concept so complicated because vp was committed to making a doctrine of hypocricy and propounding that it was allowable for a Christian to live a filthy way of life, and therefore he needed to belittle the fear of the Lord which should keep people from acting wickedly and living in sin.
Watchman Nee in the devotional today said,
You hit the nail on the head, Kit! Probably in language more easy to understand than mine! :)
I'm getting the impression that you're saying something like this (while you're saying that's
at least partially incorrect):
-God wants us to be afraid of Him
-it is appropriate and healthy to be afraid of God
-obedience to God is motivated by being afraid of God-and that is as it should be
What I'm saying is more like:
-God wants us to love Him and consider Him with the utmost respect and reverence
-it is appropriate and healthy to be in awe of God
-obedience to God is motivated by love for a truly Awesome God, and wanting to please Him
I am not really talking about if God wants us to be afraid of him or not... It really isn't my main point. Although I would agree with you also that God wants us to love him and such...
I don't see a contradiction between love and fear.
What I am saying is that every person who came into contract with God was either fearful or more often terrified of Him.
More often than not God, Jesus (in his glorified body) or an angel had to say do not be afraid... It would not make since for fear to mean respect...
In those instances people where afraid naturally.
So since all of scripture gives an experience of fear to the point of terror in many cases the conclusion must be when coming into contact with God or Jesus (in glorified body) we will be afraid of him in the full since of the word.
That is the experience.....
Then if you add in the commands to fear God in scripture as I already gave or that Steve gave already... I think it is very clear that God expects a fearful response... Not out of response for fearing hell but rather in fear of him because of Who He is not what He would do.
To note I am going to try not to give long responses to everything as I get lost nor do I have the time to write them...
Wierwille taught that the "fear" of God doesn't mean that we are to fear Him, but that we are to "respect" Him.
"Respect" is indeed a major, perhaps the dominant component of "fear". ANY kind of fear.
What kind of respect did Wierwille mean? We see from the Scriptures that the proper "fear" or "respect" of God results in obedience to His Word, and this obedience casts out any accompanying torment.
In other parts of PFAL, Wierwille taught that we are no longer expected to be obedient to God. In this "wonderful administration of the grace of God", we get a free-pass on all our sins. There is no longer any thing wrong with sin, only with sin-consciousness. We can do anything we want, as long as we don't condemn ourselves for doing it.
I submit that "sin-consciousness" IS the fear of God in its reflexive component.
When people recognize the holiness of God, they are also compelled to acknowledge their own falling short of that holiness. Wierwille's definition of "respect" divorced the reflexive component of the fear of God from the awe and reverence component. Wierwille said, just pay attention to how wonderful God is, don't pay any attention to how you can come up to the standard He expects of you.
You can sing praise songs all day long, if you aren't moved to repent, you don't really respect God at all.
If you read back over my posts, I think I almost always qualified the way Wierwille taught us to respect God as the same way we would respect an elderly uncle we are no longer expected to obey.
The "fear" in the fear of God does NOT mean "fear" in the Pavlovian sense. But neither does it mean the reverence of singing praise songs all day with pride and arrogancy in our own hearts.
The verse you bring up, I John 4:18, points up the truth that we can't accept a simplistic, either/or definition of fear, the way Wierwille did and taught.
If we read on to I John 5:3 we see "...this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments..."
So we can read 4:18 as: There is no fear in keeping God's commandments: but perfectly keeping God's commandments casts out fear, because fear has torment. He who fears is not made perfect in keeping God's commandments.
We can? We can just make that leap and read that into the verse? I guess we can pull any verse about love out of the scriptures and say it means fear. Why would we want to is my question. Honestly, when was the last time you perfectly kept God's commandments and made yourself perfect? When was the last time you didn't break the 1st commandment before lunch?
We might want to first consider faith in Jesus Christ, a running theme in scripture....the cross of Christ which is not to be ignored and also what the verse actually says.....that this is the love of God. Not the fear of God.
You know where Godly sorrow and repentance stem from. It is the goodness of God which leads us to repentance. Repentance means change. Fear is a great motivator but love is an even greater motivator. What is the love the verse is speaking about? Are fear and love interchangeable?
The problem I see with what your reading into that verse is that our lack of fear or torment rests solely in our hands and in our ability to perfectly keep God's commandments. Why do we even need a Savior?
I think you might still be bypassing Jesus Christ, the cross, the gospel message and promoting a works based faith dependent on fear instead of works that result from faith and love.
II Corinthians 7:1b also applies, "...let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." It is the fear of God that moves us to get rid of filthiness of the flesh and spirit.
But if the fear of God is simply, passively adoring Him, how does it move us to get rid of filthiness? (rhetorical question)
Rhetorical or not .....I am asking you who says adoring God is passive? Worship is not passive.....praise is not passive....and it is not something done once on Sunday morning. Where do you get that adoring God is simply passive? We love Him because He first loved us...He made us able to love Him.....it is His work that we love Him and He didn't make it a passive love, but quite frankly we are never going to be able to sanctify ourselves. This is one wonderful and encouraging verse.....but I would caution building an entire theology around what you are gleaning from these verses because it seems you are heading towards a works based theology.
The fear of God has a reflexive component, remember, the fear of the LORD is to hate the pride and arrogancy in our own hearts!
Well, that is the working definition you pulled from one verse in proverbs....but, it does not say just in our own hearts....we hate all pride and arrogance even if it is in others....you can hate those things without hating others. We hate them because they are what oppose God. Our own hearts are a good place to examine for them, but as they are things that stand in opposition to God...no matter where they dwell they are things we don't embrace. We don't hate them because we are afraid of God, we hate them because we love His ways.
If a person DESIRES to harbor pride and arrogancy in her or his own heart, then the fear of God can carry quite a bit of torment with it, torment that can be relieved only by becoming humble, and keeping God's commandments. Some people try to relieve the torment by ignoring the fear of God, which they do by flattering their own selves, or by redefining the fear of God as simply "respect". Or they try to deaden the torment with Drambuie and the endorphins of sexual activity. In the long run, those things don't work.
A person who desires to harbor pride....doesn't have the fear of God. They don't recognize God, pride and arrogance are the antithesis of the fear of God. That is why we hate them. Pride would prohibit one from recognizing God and arrogance wouldn't care. There is no torment.....there is no God in their lives other than themselves. Recognizing God leads to humbleness. How does one become humble? Do we just decide one day to be humble? Do we just decide on our own one day to recognize God, His holiness, love, and power? The scripture says we are dead in sin. Isn't is God who ultimately illuminates and God who decides? Let's give Him the glory for these things...... we don't work for that part of salvation....we are dead and don't raise ourselves. We often have to be broken to come to God. It is God who breaks us down to raise us up.
I still believe that ALL the evil perpetrated by TWI can be attributed to the truth that Wierwille did not fear God, and he taught us to do the same.
The bible speaks at great length about false teachers and clearly articulates what they do and are full of. . . . it reads like a who's who of TWI and the splinter groups. I think it is best when speaking of scripture not to consider too much of what they did, still do, or believe...unless it is to warn others. If we really want to understand what motivated VP to teach and do the things he did....we can learn about false teachers as it is laid out pretty clearly. VP's eyes were full of something else and the scriptures say that false teachers desire to satisfy their lusts. I don't think he was secretly tormented by the fear of God and that is why he drank and committed adultery, I think exactly what the scriptures tell us......he was full of pride and arrogance and actually believed he could use God to satisfy his desire for sin. Hard to imagine isn't it?
I just wanted to address this quickly....you said "When people saw the miracles Jesus did, they were moved to get back on the right path. How's that for regarding the way they experienced the phobos of the LORD?"
Well, it didn't take very well, the same multitude turned on Him and called for His execution. They opted for a hardened criminal over Jesus. Miracles were a sign to show them He is the Messiah....so that they would believe in Him. It is always about Him. Miracles do not convert or transform people, faith in Jesus Christ does. Fear doesn't convert people, knowledge doesn't convert people, the gift of faith does.
Geisha, I like you! I admire your passion for the Lord, and your willingness to engage with people on the subject. I agree with you 99% of the time. That percentage may seem a little high to you, but if you stop and think about what I'm actually saying, you may be pleasantly surprised.
You know, there are NO grammars or dictionaries surviving from antiquity. ALL the rules of Greek grammar (with their multitude of exceptions!) and ALL the definitions are derived by inference. And that goes for the writings of Homer and the Greek philosophers, as well as the Koine Greek of the Bible.
Figuring out what the phrase "the fear of God" means is what we're doing here, not from PFAL, not from Pavlov, but from how the word is used in its contexts in the Bible. That's what it means to derive a definition by inference.
I John 4:18 says "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that hath fear is not made perfect in love."
I John 5:3a, only about a mere 100 words later in the King James Version, says, "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments..."
Now... if John defines "the love of God" in this particular context as "keeping His commandments", then we should be able to learn something about what John means by "fear" when we substitute "to keep His commandments" for "love" in verse 4:18.
(The word "perfect" in verse 4:18 is based on telos, a Greek word which means "finished" or "completed".
The word "torment" in 4:18 is based on kalasis, a "pruning" or a "cutting off".)
If we do so, we get, "There is no fear in keeping God's commandments; but completely keeping God's commandments casts out fear: because fear prunes, he that fears is not finished in keeping God's commandments."
Is there anything wrong with that, other than that it is stated in language you aren't familiar with?
You wrote, "We can? We can just make that leap and read that into the verse? I guess we can just pull any verse about love out of the scriptures and say it means fear."
Did I "just pull any verse out of the scriptures"? Did I say that "love" means "fear"?
If you go back and re-read carefully, you'll see that I did neither of those things.
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Regarding II Corinthians 7:1b you wrote, "This is one wonderful and encouraging verse.....but I would caution building an entire theology around what you are gleaning from these verses because it seems you are heading towards a works based theology."
I appreciate your thoughfulness and concern for me, and I don't intend that in a sarcastic way. Your care for me as well as for the Lord comes through.
II Corinthians 7:1b says, "...let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."
It isn't just an isolated verse.
Philippians 2:12 says, "Wherefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
The word translated "work out" is katergazomai, literally to "work down" meaning to bring something into effect through work, sort of like bringing a plan into effect by working to accomplish its objectives. And here it is in the imperative mood.
This is NOT simply a wonderful and encouraging verse, it is a COMMANDMENT.
We are commanded to work out our own salvation in or with fear, and combined with II Corinthians 7:1b, we see that this fear is most probably the fear of God.
Does this mean we should adopt a "theology of works", whatever THAT means? No, we Christians from gentile backgrounds receive salvation by grace through faith, the same way Christians from Jewish backgrounds receive it. But once we receive that salvation, we are to work that salvation out into expression, we are to accomplish works that are appropriate for a person who has been saved.
Is the fear of God reverence, awe, etc., etc. YES, it is! But it also has a reflexive component. When we recognize the holiness of God, then we also recognize the elements in our hearts, pride and arrogancy, that cast themselves up in rebellion against God's holiness. The reverence of God includes a hatred of of the pride and arrogancy in our own hearts.
I am confident that a strong case can be made that the "pride and arrogancy" of Proverbs 8:13 are the desperate wickedness of Jeremiah 17:9.
Wierwille, in PFAL, sought to divorce the hatred of pride and arrogancy in our own hearts from reverence for God.
Does the goodness of God lead men to repentence? Yes it does, when people recognize that God is good, and they want to be LIKE him, making their holiness more complete or more finished through their works. Will their holiness become absolutely complete through their works? No, it will not. That will only happen when that which is perfect is come and we are changed.
I'll be able to post some more lengthy responses tomorrow, but here's a quick, drive-by observation: I've been reading up on the physiology of fear, and it strikes me that there is no seeming neurological difference between fear and awe. If there is a difference, it would seem that the effects of awe are at a much lower order of magnitude than the effects of fear.
Here's a list of the physiological effects of fear, from Anne M. Chalfant, Managing Anxiety in People with Autism, [bethesda, MD: Woodbine House, 2011], pp. 14-5,
- Racing heart
- Hyperventilation and shortness of breath
- Turning pale or flush or alternating between both
- Digestion slowing down or stopping
- Constriction of blood vessels in many parts of the
body
- Nausea
- Dilation of blood vessels for muscles
- Inhibition of gland responsible for tear production
and salavation, resulting in dry eyes and mouth
- Dilation of pupils
- Relaxation of bladder, resulting in "accidents"
- Faster reflexes
- Shaking
It makes some sense out of the pairing of "fear" and "trembling" in some occurances of phobeo/phobos. If there's a good short-hand description of the physiology of fear, it is "trembling."
Fear is controllable, that is the mind can still function in the state of fear, but if the mind is overwhelmed (deer in the headlights), the resulting paralysis or spastic response is called "panic."
The version I quoted, and I don't remember, but I think it is the NIV....reads a bit differently yet still works for our discussion. Fear has torment because it is in relation to punishment. Right before John speaks of perfect love casting out fear, he actually tells us that God is love. He tells us how God displayed His love for us. He sent His Son as the atoning sacrifice for sin. Jesus took the punishment due us.
God does require perfect obedience, He required a perfect sacrifice.....but not because God is an ego maniac, or maniacal as some people like to intimate or come right out and say. It is because God is holy, holy, holy....perfectly righteous and just. God doesn't abide sin.
You wrote... "So we can read 4:18 as " There is no fear in keeping God's commandments: but perfectly keeping God's commandments casts out fear, because fear has torment. He who fears is not made perfect in keeping God's commandments."
I understand just fine how you come to that.... but tell me, who it is that has ever perfectly obeyed God's commandments? How has God, who is love, shown us His love? Who is it that has lived a perfect and sinless life? Not me, and I never will. I shoot for sinning less and less but there are days I barely make it to the breakfast table without sinning. I am not tormented and I am not afraid. That is not what motivates me to try and obey God. My faith HAS to be in Jesus Christ. I obey, when I do, out of His love for me.
You described exactly what Jesus did....lived in perfect obedience to God. Are you tracking with me? Do you really think that is how you are going to be able to live? Do you believe that you will be made perfect in keeping God's commandments? If so, you don't need a savior to live and die in your stead. Confidence in God doesn't stem from our obedience or our ability. If it does, we have missed the mark, we have missed the cross and we don't have faith in Jesus Christ or the least understanding of the righteousness of God. Our works are not what should give us peace....there is only one source for peace. It isn't us.
God is the author of love in these verses, the origin of love in these verses and it is a perfect and complete love. If we don't know God's love... have not been made perfect in it....(and we know how He loves us).....we know our response is to be faith.....then we will have fear of punishment. But, we are STILL going to have fear if we rely on our ability to perfectly obey Him.
I understand what you wrote.....I understand how you came to it.....I don't have a problem with the language....and thanks, but I have already earned my degree so I think I can keep up. My issue is that you replaced Jesus Christ with our ability to perfectly obey God as a means of being made perfect in love. I also think you might be confusing sanctification with obedience. Our ability, our works and our faith can be offensive before God if we think that is the way to God or to be perfected.
The real irony is that obedience to God...is for our benefit....not His.
Many years ago shortly after I was married I was up late one night studying, books all over the living room floor of our place. I was leaned over on my arm and dozed off zzzzzzz....I woke up with a start! to a voice saying my name, "socks!". I dozed off again - "Socks!".....scared the crap out of me, I was alone there in the room. I got up and went in the bedroom, wife snoozing deeply in sleep. I went back and gathered my books together and wrapped up what I'd been doing.
As the years go on the fear goes out of a person's life on some things, acceptance and resolve replace the shock of sudden awareness, understanding. There's always an element of surprise to life I think, goes with the territory. Each new day presents it's own opportunities. Part of my resolve is to expect the unexpected and so keep (try to anyway) myself open to the immense diversity of a life that's been produced by a God who appears to thrill at magnanimous creation.
I once witnessed to a guy years ago and the topic of "hell" came up in the conversation. He said "That's my Tuesday, what else is new?" Life for him wasn't good and the idea that life for eternity might not be either was acceptable.
When he heard that Christianity was all about a deliverance and ascendance to a better life, a life that was intended for him as much as anyone else, he scoffed. "Not for me", was his reaction. His own assumptions about himself prevented him from including himself in anything like that. And he wasn't afraid at all, he actually felt that's the way it is and if that's the way it will be, fine. In essence, why would God "love" him when his own life had proven time and again he didn't seem to be lovable?
From there to seeing God's love through Jesus Christ was a process for him and when it hit him, dawned on him finally it was....well, like he was born again. And he was, quite literally.
Not afraid though - incredibly relieved, thankful, overwhelmed. The magnitude of that reality was like a passing from death to life, he indeed had that identification with Christ that's spoken about.
The fear of being what he had been left, although I know it nagged at him at times as it would with anyone I think. But coming back to that state of being loved that he'd accepted he continued in that path. No idea what he'd doing today but I hope he'd still doing well.
I think the actual authentic experience many people have is like that - the balance of knowing more, what might be, what could be, what will be with what is and who and what we are now. Within that are all the things you're writing about, however the state of being balanced there is what geisha describes, IMO.
I believe that ALL the problems brought on by TWI and its off-shoots can be traced back to the truth that there was no fear of God before Wierwille's eyes, and he trained all of us as well to ignore the fear of God to one degree or another.
I believe one of the greatest tools Wierwille used to teach us to ignore the fear of God was to reduce the meaning of "fear" in the TWI groupspeak to a one-dimensional entity whose only power was negative.
Wierwille taught that fear is believing in reverse, that it is sand in the machinery of life, that it always encases, always enslaves, always binds.
The truth is that God designed fear as an important survival mechanism, an emotion that drives an individual to seek a safe relation with the object of her or his fear.
Just as with every other aspect of life, fear has been distorted and abused since the fall. We are mistaken if we confuse the godly purposes of fear with its distortions and abuses... DANGEROUSLY mistaken! A person who does not recognize genuine fear is like a person who chews things before the dental novacaine has worn off. When the feeling comes back, he finds he has chewed up the insides of his cheeks and his tongue.
Wierwille said that the fear of God doesn't mean that we should fear God, but rather that we should "respect" Him. Now there IS an aspect of reverence and awe involved with the fear of God. Wierwille used the sugar-coating of that truth to fool us into swallowing the lie, that we are no longer expected to be obedient to God, that we can do whatever we damned-well-please without any consequences. But there is also a "fear" component to fear, as the word itself might suggest, a component which moves us to be obedient to God even if the thoughts and intents of our own hearts say it's perfectly all right to disobey.
The picture of "fear" in the Old Testament is more complicated than the idea presented in the New Testament, because the Greek words phobos/phobeo are used to translate a number of different Hebrew words. But this also indicates that the NT uses of phobos/phobeo are much more nuanced than Wierwille would have had us believe.
"19 Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear [pachad] is not in thee, saith the Lord God of hosts."
Some people say that fear comes from punishment, and God doesn't punish us anymore. That may well be, but does God still allow our wickedness to correct us? and our backslidings to reprove us? There ARE consequences to not fearing God, and those consequences are evil and bitter.
The evil and bitterness associated with TWI stem from Wierwille's and his followers' failure to pay attention the fear of God, their failure to accept reproof when they departed from Him.
It was MY failure, too, to the degree that I accepted Wierwille's admonition that I should not fear God. I accepted God's reproof and repented of my pride and arrogance, and He delivered me. He'll do it for anybody who is willing to look honestly at the condition of his own heart.
The fear of God is important because it is the only antidote to the deceitfulness and wickedness of the heart highlighted in Jeremiah 17:9.
The heart is so deceitful, it can convince people that they are still serving the Lord, when they have actually allowed their hearts to depart far from Him.
The touchstone for the fear of the Lord is this: Am I willing to reconsider the thoughts and intents of my heart if I see that they don't line-up with what's written in the Word (line-up overall... not just verses pulled out of context here and there)?
ALL of the terribleness that has come about as a result of Wierwille's teaching and practice has happened because people who thought they were serving God were being taught that they could do so without being obedient to the Lord's commandments.
Before I go any further into this discussion, I want to know a bit more about
our common ground, what we already agree on.
Can we agree that vpw had neither RESPECT, REGARD nor AWE of God, and used
the TRAPPINGS while not actually CARING, meaning his talk of caring about
God was all talk, simply a SCRIPT to enact, a false face to wear, a mask?
Can we agree that if vpw had actually respected God, he would have cared
about doing things God said to do and avoiding things God said to avoid,
and would have at least been making an effort to do so rather than inventing
lies to claim God approved of every lust of his flesh and eyes and his pride
of life?
I agree with everything you've said.
I think the problem we have in seeing eye-to-eye (to use the lingo of my current faith community) may be a result of the overly simplistic definition of "fear" that we learned. You wrote,"vpw had neither RESPECT, REGARD nor AWE of God, and used the TRAPPINGS while not actually CARING..." I submit that your use of the word "caring" may come more closely to the biblical sense of "fear/awe" than either of those words, "fear" and "awe", come in our everyday usage.
If we look at phobeo/phobos in the New Testament, it's hard to see how the single concept can be applied to both "terror", in the strictest sense of the word, and "respect" for God, but if we look at the various Hebrew words translated by phobeo/phobos, we can see there were nuances in the Old Testament that do not come out in the New Testament.
I don't really know where Wierwille got his definition of "fear" from, but it certainly wasn't from study of the Old Testament. For instance, let's look at Job 3:25, "For the thing which I greatly feared [pachad - Strong's #6342] is come upon me, and that which I was afraid [yagor - Strong's #3025] of is come unto me."
Seems simple enough, doesn't it? Fear is believing in reverse, and we're gonna get the things we fear, right?
But let's look a pachad in Job 23:15 in its context,
"13 But he [God] is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
"14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.
"15 Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid [pachad] of him.
"16 For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:"
When Job considered God, he was afraid, and God troubled his heart.
Now let's see how Job uses yagor in Job 9:28, "I am afraid [yagor] of all my sorrows, I know that thou [God] will not hold me innocent."
What does THAT mean? I'd be lying if I said I understand it completely, but it seems there is an element of fear associated with the idea of being held accountable by God.
Now there is a different flavor to the fear of pachad compared to the fear of yagor, but Job 3:25 holds these two kinds of fear in poetic parallel, meaning that the fear the author of Job was trying to express was a composite, or a synergism, of the meanings of pachad and yagor.
Was Wierwille communicating the biblical truth to us when he said that "fear" doesn't really mean "fear", it simply means "respect". There was an elementary truth to what he said. "Fear" CAN mean "respect", but it can also mean many more things, things that are communicated by the numerous different but intertwined words for "fear" in the Old Testament, and things that are communicated by your use of the word "care", WordWolf.
I've only scratched the surface, not only in what I've posted here, but also in my study of this topic in the Old Testament. I've seen enough to know there is a heck of a lot more in Jeremiah.
I don't have much time to research this because of a heavy work schedule. However, I read the below from the Nelson Bible Dictionary and I agree with it. Like a lot of words both in English, Hebrew and Greek, their meaning depends on the context. And one more thing, in the Old Testament we only had half truths if that much. It was only through the life and ministry of our Lord Jesus Christ that we received the whole truth. Jesus is the Way, the truth and the life. So if Jesus says the greatest commandment is to love God above all. How can we love anyone if we fear them in a negative sense? As the Nelson Bible Dictionary points out if we fear God in a negative sense we will simply avoid God and want nothing to do with God or we will deliberately deny God even exists.
One more thing the same Hebrew word for fear is also translated respect in Lev. 19:3. Again this depends on the context of usage. Either that or we are also suppose to fear our parents. How can anyone have a positive experience with anyone that they know if they only fear them? If you fear anyone you know you are going to avoid them.
Lev 19:3
3 "'Each of you must respect his mother and father, and you must observe my Sabbaths. I am the LORD your God.
NIV
Lev 19:3
3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.
KJV
FEAR
A feeling of reverence, awe, and respect, or an unpleasant emotion caused by a sense of danger. Fear may be directed toward God or man, and it may be either healthy or harmful.
A healthy fear is reverence or respect. The Bible teaches that children are to respect their parents (Lev 19:3), wives are to respect their husbands (Eph 5:33), and slaves are to respect their masters (Eph 6:5). The Scriptures also declare that "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge" (Prov 1:7) as well as "the beginning of wisdom" (Prov 16:16).
A harmful fear is a sense of terror or dread. Believers are instructed not to fear human beings (Matt 10:28; Phil 1:28), because they cannot ultimately harm us. Wicked men, however, are constantly fearing other people, especially the righteous (Prov 28:1; Matt 14:5; Rom 13:3-4). Such fear causes them to act deceitfully in an attempt to hide their sins (2 Sam 11; Matt 28:4-15).
On the other hand, the unbeliever has every reason to be panic-stricken at thoughts of God, for he stands condemned before Him (Matt 10:28; John 3:18). And yet, this kind of fear of God does not often lead to repentance. It normally leads to a feeble attempt to hide from God (Gen 3:8; Rev 6:15-17) or worse, to a denial of God's existence and His claim on a person's life (Ps 14:1; Rom 1:18-28).
The idea that you cannot love a person and fear them at the same time is not as true to experience as it might first seem.
When I was a kid, we lived on a very busy street. There were a couple of trees in the front yard, and Mama told us we weren't to go closer to the street than a line drawn between those two trees, or we would get a switching. And when she caught us crossing that line, she switched us. It wasn't punishment, it was reproof. I loved my mother, and I knew she loved me, but I feared her when she used the switch.
I remember the day I was mad at Mama and ran out into the street in a fit of rebellious anger. I narrowly missed being hit. I learned THAT day to fear the CARS. Mama did NOT switch me that day, she was so thankful that I hadn't been hit, and I was truly ashamed of my foolishness. Mama NEVER had to take the switch to me again for that reason. I learned I needed to pay better attention to her, because her wisdom was greater than mine, and I would be better off if I were obedient.
There are still things nearly 60 years later that I never have done, and never will do, because I feared her when she used the switch. And yet I loved her dearly, and know that she loved me even more.
God doesn't switch people: "Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the LORD God of hosts." Jeremiah 2:19
Jeremiah 5:21-31
"21 Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:
"22 Fear [yare Strong's #3372] ye not me? saith the LORD: will ye not tremble at my presence, which have placed the sand for the bound of the sea by a perpetual decree, that it cannot pass it: and though the waves thereof toss themselves, yet can they not prevail; though they roar, yet can they not pass over it?
"23 But this people hath a revolting and a rebellious heart; they are revolted and gone.
"24 Neither say they in their heart, Let us now fear [yare Strong's #3372] the LORD our God, that giveth rain, both the former and the latter, in his season: he reserveth unto us the appointed weeks of the harvest.
"25 Your iniquities have turned away these things, and your sins have withholden good things from you.
"26 For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men.
"27 As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich.
"28 They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deedes of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy they do not judge.
"29 Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?
"30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;
"31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?"
Why does God talk so much about the sea in verse 22? Because God set the boundaries between chaos and order, and chaos and order are obedient to those boundaries, yet foolish people are not obedient to the boundaries God has set. They don't fear God. Wierwille was not obedient to the boundaries God set. Wierwille didn't fear God. He taught us to do the same.
The people in verses 23 and 24 had revolting and rebellious HEARTS. They did NOT say in their HEARTS, "Let us now fear the LORD our God." They could not say that God gave the rains and harvests, because they had eyes which did not see, and ears which did not hear, because they did not keep the fear of God before their eyes.
Verse 24 also shows us that God wants people to fear Him for his goodness.
And what happened? Did God switch them? No He did not! "Your iniquities have turned these things away. Your sins have withheld the good things." They got the consequences of their rebellion, but they couldn't understand why, because they had flattered themselves too much in their own eyes to even recognize that they were being rebellious.
Could there be a better description of The Way International than verses 26-28? Do they really think they can get away with it forever? Yes, they do, because there is no fear of God before their eyes.
If you've ever studied the Anglo-Saxon poem Beowulf, you know that in that Dark Age culture, the word "grim" had a vastly broader and more lofty meaning than it has today, a meaning we cannot now easily translate into English.
In the culture of Antiquity, both Jewish and gentile, the word "fear" likewise had a vastly broader and more lofty meaning than it has today. I would submit that none of our current definitions of "fear" come anywhere near to communicating the way it was understood in antiquity.
Steve you are a good bible student. So is Wordwolf who I know personally. He is very sharp and a very good bible student and his posts here reflect that. One of his major points which should be obvious to everyone is that the word fear is not a Hebrew word. It is an English word from the century that the King James Version was translated from the Hebrew for the Old Testament or for a few usages the Greek in the New Testament. I am sure you are aware of the many usages of this word, but I am not sure that everyone here is. Hence, my prior post. Wordwolf started this thread and I am sure he has done a lot of good study on this as I am sure you have done also. You both may just express things a little differently. Nevertheless we are in the 21st century now and the word fear has more negative usages now as Wordwolf has clearly pointed out. Unless you are prepared to go over all Old Testament usages of this original Hebrew word, which I know is over 200 or perhaps over 300. (I don't have my bible software on this computer I am now using.) Then I think you should also relate this word "fear" as to how it is used today also in explaining this concept. If this concept was expressed today the word fear would not have been used as many times as it was in the 16th century with the King James Version. Languages and means of expression change. The truth may not change, but the words of expression do change.
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Steve Lortz
Wierwille liked to pretend that he arrived at his conclusions as a result of careful research, during which God would teach him the Word of God as it had not been known since the first century.
For the past two days I've been using Blue Letter Bible to do a cursory examination of the idea of "fear" in the Old Testament. It's one of the most fascinating things I've done in a long time, both for how radically different the things I am finding are from what Wierwille taught, and for the wonderfully intricate elegance of the idea.
Wierwille taught that fear is always negative, that it is believing in reverse, that it is sand in the machinery of life, that it always encases, always enslaves, always binds.
The truth is a little more complex and a lot more profitable than that!
The complete title of this thread is Fear of God, What it is? What it is NOT?
==========================================
Proverbs 8:13a
"13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate."
This doesn't mean we're supposed to look at other people and say, "Ooooo... they're evil. I hate them!" It means we're supposed to look into our own hearts, and hate the pride and arrogancy we find in our own attitudes.
Fear of God, what it is: hating the pride and arrogancy in our own hearts.
==========================================
I Samuel 12:14a
"14 ...ye will fear the LORD, and serve him, and obey his voice, and not rebel against the commandment of the LORD..."
Fear of God, what it is NOT: rebelling against the commandment of God, serving our own selves, disobeying God's voice.
==========================================
Love,
Steve
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geisha779
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, because they could not bear what was commanded: "If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned to death." The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, "I am trembling with fear."
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens." The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our "God is a consuming fire.
..........................................................................................
What is it we are afraid of with God? What do we have to fear? That God is an all powerful and consuming fire? We recognize God and worship Him in wonder and awe as WW and others have pointed out..
_____________________________________
If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?
I will be the first to say it isn't always fun or pleasant to be corrected by God...to be chastened, but obedience isn't always a remedy for that. Look at Job.....all those He loves God chastens....it doesn't say all the slackers or disobedient. Trial is also how we grow in faith. It can be scary when God hides His face, but the more we grow in faith the more we know it is temporary. Obedience is important but there is no way to earn our own sanctification.....it comes from trial. God induced pressure....internal and external, but we shouldn't fear it. We actually should rejoice in it. The one thing you don't want is for God to ignore you and leave you in sin.....that is a bad sign.
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Kit Sober
"Fear of the Lord" synthesized out for me over the years to "Just don't do it." If I know the Lord says to love my neighbor, then that's what I do. If the Lord says don't steal, I don't steal. If the Lord says don't lie, I don't lie. The fear of the Lord is a wall separating me from actions which the Lord forbids. when I find myself on the other side of the wall and in sin, then I ask forgiveness and get back where I belong.
The Lord Jesus said (Matthew 14:23ff) "23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."
I think twi belittled and denied the fear of the Lord and made their doctrine around this simple concept so complicated because vp was committed to making a doctrine of hypocricy and propounding that it was allowable for a Christian to live a filthy way of life, and therefore he needed to belittle the fear of the Lord which should keep people from acting wickedly and living in sin.
Watchman Nee in the devotional today said,
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OperaBuff
This kind of fear seems to be something one can only have towards God. Fear God, meaning have a sense of awe and a healthy respect for the one spirit who created the heavens and the earth; don't forget about Him as you go about your business, that He is alive and well and still on the throne, and that He ain't done with this world yet.
One can't have that sense for any other person, place or thing. There may even be a small sense of being afraid of God too, rather like having a healthy respect for electricity. If electricity were my Father, I would have a sense of awe and a healthy respect for electricity, but I'd still be careful not to break its laws and rules for fear of being electrocuted.
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Steve Lortz
The verse you bring up, I John 4:18, points up the truth that we can't accept a simplistic, either/or definition of fear, the way Wierwille did and taught.
If we read on to I John 5:3 we see "...this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments..."
So we can read 4:18 as: There is no fear in keeping God's commandments: but perfectly keeping God's commandments casts out fear, because fear has torment. He who fears is not made perfect in keeping God's commandments.
II Corinthians 7:1b also applies, "...let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." It is the fear of God that moves us to get rid of filthiness of the flesh and spirit.
But if the fear of God is simply, passively adoring Him, how does it move us to get rid of filthiness? (rhetorical question)
The fear of God has a reflexive component, remember, the fear of the LORD is to hate the pride and arrogancy in our own hearts!
If a person DESIRES to harbor pride and arrogancy in her or his own heart, then the fear of God can carry quite a bit of torment with it, torment that can be relieved only by becoming humble, and keeping God's commandments. Some people try to relieve the torment by ignoring the fear of God, which they do by flattering their own selves, or by redefining the fear of God as simply "respect". Or they try to deaden the torment with Drambuie and the endorphins of sexual activity. In the long run, those things don't work.
I still believe that ALL the evil perpetrated by TWI can be attributed to the truth that Wierwille did not fear God, and he taught us to do the same.
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
You hit the nail on the head, Kit! Probably in language more easy to understand than mine! :)
Love,
Steve
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Naten00
I am not really talking about if God wants us to be afraid of him or not... It really isn't my main point. Although I would agree with you also that God wants us to love him and such...
I don't see a contradiction between love and fear.
What I am saying is that every person who came into contract with God was either fearful or more often terrified of Him.
More often than not God, Jesus (in his glorified body) or an angel had to say do not be afraid... It would not make since for fear to mean respect...
In those instances people where afraid naturally.
So since all of scripture gives an experience of fear to the point of terror in many cases the conclusion must be when coming into contact with God or Jesus (in glorified body) we will be afraid of him in the full since of the word.
That is the experience.....
Then if you add in the commands to fear God in scripture as I already gave or that Steve gave already... I think it is very clear that God expects a fearful response... Not out of response for fearing hell but rather in fear of him because of Who He is not what He would do.
To note I am going to try not to give long responses to everything as I get lost nor do I have the time to write them...
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Steve Lortz
Wierwille taught that the "fear" of God doesn't mean that we are to fear Him, but that we are to "respect" Him.
"Respect" is indeed a major, perhaps the dominant component of "fear". ANY kind of fear.
What kind of respect did Wierwille mean? We see from the Scriptures that the proper "fear" or "respect" of God results in obedience to His Word, and this obedience casts out any accompanying torment.
In other parts of PFAL, Wierwille taught that we are no longer expected to be obedient to God. In this "wonderful administration of the grace of God", we get a free-pass on all our sins. There is no longer any thing wrong with sin, only with sin-consciousness. We can do anything we want, as long as we don't condemn ourselves for doing it.
I submit that "sin-consciousness" IS the fear of God in its reflexive component.
When people recognize the holiness of God, they are also compelled to acknowledge their own falling short of that holiness. Wierwille's definition of "respect" divorced the reflexive component of the fear of God from the awe and reverence component. Wierwille said, just pay attention to how wonderful God is, don't pay any attention to how you can come up to the standard He expects of you.
You can sing praise songs all day long, if you aren't moved to repent, you don't really respect God at all.
If you read back over my posts, I think I almost always qualified the way Wierwille taught us to respect God as the same way we would respect an elderly uncle we are no longer expected to obey.
The "fear" in the fear of God does NOT mean "fear" in the Pavlovian sense. But neither does it mean the reverence of singing praise songs all day with pride and arrogancy in our own hearts.
Love,
Steve
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geisha779
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Steve Lortz
Geisha, I like you! I admire your passion for the Lord, and your willingness to engage with people on the subject. I agree with you 99% of the time. That percentage may seem a little high to you, but if you stop and think about what I'm actually saying, you may be pleasantly surprised.
You know, there are NO grammars or dictionaries surviving from antiquity. ALL the rules of Greek grammar (with their multitude of exceptions!) and ALL the definitions are derived by inference. And that goes for the writings of Homer and the Greek philosophers, as well as the Koine Greek of the Bible.
Figuring out what the phrase "the fear of God" means is what we're doing here, not from PFAL, not from Pavlov, but from how the word is used in its contexts in the Bible. That's what it means to derive a definition by inference.
I John 4:18 says "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that hath fear is not made perfect in love."
I John 5:3a, only about a mere 100 words later in the King James Version, says, "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments..."
Now... if John defines "the love of God" in this particular context as "keeping His commandments", then we should be able to learn something about what John means by "fear" when we substitute "to keep His commandments" for "love" in verse 4:18.
(The word "perfect" in verse 4:18 is based on telos, a Greek word which means "finished" or "completed".
The word "torment" in 4:18 is based on kalasis, a "pruning" or a "cutting off".)
If we do so, we get, "There is no fear in keeping God's commandments; but completely keeping God's commandments casts out fear: because fear prunes, he that fears is not finished in keeping God's commandments."
Is there anything wrong with that, other than that it is stated in language you aren't familiar with?
You wrote, "We can? We can just make that leap and read that into the verse? I guess we can just pull any verse about love out of the scriptures and say it means fear."
Did I "just pull any verse out of the scriptures"? Did I say that "love" means "fear"?
If you go back and re-read carefully, you'll see that I did neither of those things.
===========
Regarding II Corinthians 7:1b you wrote, "This is one wonderful and encouraging verse.....but I would caution building an entire theology around what you are gleaning from these verses because it seems you are heading towards a works based theology."
I appreciate your thoughfulness and concern for me, and I don't intend that in a sarcastic way. Your care for me as well as for the Lord comes through.
II Corinthians 7:1b says, "...let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."
It isn't just an isolated verse.
Philippians 2:12 says, "Wherefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
The word translated "work out" is katergazomai, literally to "work down" meaning to bring something into effect through work, sort of like bringing a plan into effect by working to accomplish its objectives. And here it is in the imperative mood.
This is NOT simply a wonderful and encouraging verse, it is a COMMANDMENT.
We are commanded to work out our own salvation in or with fear, and combined with II Corinthians 7:1b, we see that this fear is most probably the fear of God.
Does this mean we should adopt a "theology of works", whatever THAT means? No, we Christians from gentile backgrounds receive salvation by grace through faith, the same way Christians from Jewish backgrounds receive it. But once we receive that salvation, we are to work that salvation out into expression, we are to accomplish works that are appropriate for a person who has been saved.
Is the fear of God reverence, awe, etc., etc. YES, it is! But it also has a reflexive component. When we recognize the holiness of God, then we also recognize the elements in our hearts, pride and arrogancy, that cast themselves up in rebellion against God's holiness. The reverence of God includes a hatred of of the pride and arrogancy in our own hearts.
I am confident that a strong case can be made that the "pride and arrogancy" of Proverbs 8:13 are the desperate wickedness of Jeremiah 17:9.
Wierwille, in PFAL, sought to divorce the hatred of pride and arrogancy in our own hearts from reverence for God.
Does the goodness of God lead men to repentence? Yes it does, when people recognize that God is good, and they want to be LIKE him, making their holiness more complete or more finished through their works. Will their holiness become absolutely complete through their works? No, it will not. That will only happen when that which is perfect is come and we are changed.
Thank you, geisha!
Love,
Steve
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WordWolf
Before I forget....
This business of an angel beginning its message with "Fear not" goes back a LONG way into the Old Testament.
In a few places it's rather specific that the people had the superstition that if they saw an angel,
they would drop dead. So, the angel had to begin by calming them down sometimes, even specifying the
person would not drop dead. In one case (Samson's parents I think), an angel gives some lengthy
information concerning raising of a child who wasn't born yet-along with the announcement of his
conception, and then the angel leaves. Dad's freaking out because he's expecting them both to
drop dead. Mom is much more sensible. What would be the point of giving us instructions on raising
a child for several years, when he isn't even born yet and we're supposed to drop dead now?
Obviously, we're expected to live to raise him. It was an irrational fear the people added and
did no good for any of them.
It's my personal speculation that that specific superstition MIGHT be related to the angel of death
and the 10th plague on Egypt. Maybe.
Either way, that wasn't confirmation we're supposed to have anxiety when hearing from God- it was a
report of the failings of the listeners to actually LISTEN, and their failure to keep superstition
away from their expectations of God Almighty.
==============================
Concerning our attitude towards God, I think we all agree on PART of this.
"The proper position to hold concerning God Almighty is on one's knees, in awe of His Magnificence,
humble before Him and respectful to the utmost."
"vpw's serious plans to sin, where he purposed in his heart to give his life over to sin,
affected his doctrine and his practice, and poisoned his attitude towards God.
He claimed we were supposed to respect God, but in practice he gave God's Will for vpw all
the attention a dog gives a fire hydrant."
"When we sin, we should feel bad, and come to God Almighty, humble and sorry we sinned."
"God has made us beloved children, which doesn't change any of the above- as a child of such
an awesome God, we should approach Him on our knees."
Our instructions being what they are, I can see the sense of realizing one is messing up and
being "fearful" of God when one has sinned badly and deserves the consequences of those sins.
As to our attitude towards approaching God, as a son, I approach with love and thankfulness-
which doesn't change the awe and doesn't change His Majesty. With love towards Him, and the
reverence and awe He deserves, I take all His instructions seriously, and seek to do what
He says to do, and avoid what He says to avoid. I WANT to please Him because He deserves
to be pleased- not because I'm afraid of reprisals. I suppose the results might LOOK the
same, but the attitude of heart is completely different.
As for fearing other things, I can easily see people fearing other people and so on,
and have no need to flip from one extreme to the other. The 1611 meaning of "fear"
sometimes meant what we mean now as "fear" and sometimes meant what we mean now as "awe",
but in either case indicated strong emotion.
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Steve Lortz
I'll be able to post some more lengthy responses tomorrow, but here's a quick, drive-by observation: I've been reading up on the physiology of fear, and it strikes me that there is no seeming neurological difference between fear and awe. If there is a difference, it would seem that the effects of awe are at a much lower order of magnitude than the effects of fear.
Here's a list of the physiological effects of fear, from Anne M. Chalfant, Managing Anxiety in People with Autism, [bethesda, MD: Woodbine House, 2011], pp. 14-5,
- Racing heart
- Hyperventilation and shortness of breath
- Turning pale or flush or alternating between both
- Digestion slowing down or stopping
- Constriction of blood vessels in many parts of the
body
- Nausea
- Dilation of blood vessels for muscles
- Inhibition of gland responsible for tear production
and salavation, resulting in dry eyes and mouth
- Dilation of pupils
- Relaxation of bladder, resulting in "accidents"
- Faster reflexes
- Shaking
It makes some sense out of the pairing of "fear" and "trembling" in some occurances of phobeo/phobos. If there's a good short-hand description of the physiology of fear, it is "trembling."
Fear is controllable, that is the mind can still function in the state of fear, but if the mind is overwhelmed (deer in the headlights), the resulting paralysis or spastic response is called "panic."
Love,
Steve
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geisha779
Steve,
The version I quoted, and I don't remember, but I think it is the NIV....reads a bit differently yet still works for our discussion. Fear has torment because it is in relation to punishment. Right before John speaks of perfect love casting out fear, he actually tells us that God is love. He tells us how God displayed His love for us. He sent His Son as the atoning sacrifice for sin. Jesus took the punishment due us.
God does require perfect obedience, He required a perfect sacrifice.....but not because God is an ego maniac, or maniacal as some people like to intimate or come right out and say. It is because God is holy, holy, holy....perfectly righteous and just. God doesn't abide sin.
You wrote... "So we can read 4:18 as " There is no fear in keeping God's commandments: but perfectly keeping God's commandments casts out fear, because fear has torment. He who fears is not made perfect in keeping God's commandments."
I understand just fine how you come to that.... but tell me, who it is that has ever perfectly obeyed God's commandments? How has God, who is love, shown us His love? Who is it that has lived a perfect and sinless life? Not me, and I never will. I shoot for sinning less and less but there are days I barely make it to the breakfast table without sinning. I am not tormented and I am not afraid. That is not what motivates me to try and obey God. My faith HAS to be in Jesus Christ. I obey, when I do, out of His love for me.
You described exactly what Jesus did....lived in perfect obedience to God. Are you tracking with me? Do you really think that is how you are going to be able to live? Do you believe that you will be made perfect in keeping God's commandments? If so, you don't need a savior to live and die in your stead. Confidence in God doesn't stem from our obedience or our ability. If it does, we have missed the mark, we have missed the cross and we don't have faith in Jesus Christ or the least understanding of the righteousness of God. Our works are not what should give us peace....there is only one source for peace. It isn't us.
God is the author of love in these verses, the origin of love in these verses and it is a perfect and complete love. If we don't know God's love... have not been made perfect in it....(and we know how He loves us).....we know our response is to be faith.....then we will have fear of punishment. But, we are STILL going to have fear if we rely on our ability to perfectly obey Him.
I understand what you wrote.....I understand how you came to it.....I don't have a problem with the language....and thanks, but I have already earned my degree so I think I can keep up. My issue is that you replaced Jesus Christ with our ability to perfectly obey God as a means of being made perfect in love. I also think you might be confusing sanctification with obedience. Our ability, our works and our faith can be offensive before God if we think that is the way to God or to be perfected.
The real irony is that obedience to God...is for our benefit....not His.
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socks
I like your approach Steve.
Many years ago shortly after I was married I was up late one night studying, books all over the living room floor of our place. I was leaned over on my arm and dozed off zzzzzzz....I woke up with a start! to a voice saying my name, "socks!". I dozed off again - "Socks!".....scared the crap out of me, I was alone there in the room. I got up and went in the bedroom, wife snoozing deeply in sleep. I went back and gathered my books together and wrapped up what I'd been doing.
As the years go on the fear goes out of a person's life on some things, acceptance and resolve replace the shock of sudden awareness, understanding. There's always an element of surprise to life I think, goes with the territory. Each new day presents it's own opportunities. Part of my resolve is to expect the unexpected and so keep (try to anyway) myself open to the immense diversity of a life that's been produced by a God who appears to thrill at magnanimous creation.
I once witnessed to a guy years ago and the topic of "hell" came up in the conversation. He said "That's my Tuesday, what else is new?" Life for him wasn't good and the idea that life for eternity might not be either was acceptable.
When he heard that Christianity was all about a deliverance and ascendance to a better life, a life that was intended for him as much as anyone else, he scoffed. "Not for me", was his reaction. His own assumptions about himself prevented him from including himself in anything like that. And he wasn't afraid at all, he actually felt that's the way it is and if that's the way it will be, fine. In essence, why would God "love" him when his own life had proven time and again he didn't seem to be lovable?
From there to seeing God's love through Jesus Christ was a process for him and when it hit him, dawned on him finally it was....well, like he was born again. And he was, quite literally.
Not afraid though - incredibly relieved, thankful, overwhelmed. The magnitude of that reality was like a passing from death to life, he indeed had that identification with Christ that's spoken about.
The fear of being what he had been left, although I know it nagged at him at times as it would with anyone I think. But coming back to that state of being loved that he'd accepted he continued in that path. No idea what he'd doing today but I hope he'd still doing well.
I think the actual authentic experience many people have is like that - the balance of knowing more, what might be, what could be, what will be with what is and who and what we are now. Within that are all the things you're writing about, however the state of being balanced there is what geisha describes, IMO.
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cman
When You do experience the fear of God,
you will also experience the love.
Becoming dead because of fear and new life in love.
Like living Heaven and Hell at the same time.
So it is with fear and love.
To see the fullness of the measure of yourself.
In Christ, in the spirit,
the honesty and direct work of God.
More then being startled, it will overpower,
and open you up, naked in your eyes and God's.
And it is a work of honor and respect and oneness.
In the flesh not many can handle it for long.
But the spirit is willing, at the right time.
You can handle the fire that is sure to come,
from inside and out, one, you are, with it all,
and come out of it and into it at the Lord's will,
without even the smell of smoke...
Not seen, fully yet, but as close as the air we breath,
and we are witness' because it is us,
as powerful as spirit is the same.
Inseparable, holy, and acceptable in sight and mind,
of both God and us, as we always have been, are, and will be,
one.
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cman
as there is no fear in love
there is no hell in heaven
but there is heaven in hell
and love in fear
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Steve Lortz
I believe that ALL the problems brought on by TWI and its off-shoots can be traced back to the truth that there was no fear of God before Wierwille's eyes, and he trained all of us as well to ignore the fear of God to one degree or another.
I believe one of the greatest tools Wierwille used to teach us to ignore the fear of God was to reduce the meaning of "fear" in the TWI groupspeak to a one-dimensional entity whose only power was negative.
Wierwille taught that fear is believing in reverse, that it is sand in the machinery of life, that it always encases, always enslaves, always binds.
The truth is that God designed fear as an important survival mechanism, an emotion that drives an individual to seek a safe relation with the object of her or his fear.
Just as with every other aspect of life, fear has been distorted and abused since the fall. We are mistaken if we confuse the godly purposes of fear with its distortions and abuses... DANGEROUSLY mistaken! A person who does not recognize genuine fear is like a person who chews things before the dental novacaine has worn off. When the feeling comes back, he finds he has chewed up the insides of his cheeks and his tongue.
Wierwille said that the fear of God doesn't mean that we should fear God, but rather that we should "respect" Him. Now there IS an aspect of reverence and awe involved with the fear of God. Wierwille used the sugar-coating of that truth to fool us into swallowing the lie, that we are no longer expected to be obedient to God, that we can do whatever we damned-well-please without any consequences. But there is also a "fear" component to fear, as the word itself might suggest, a component which moves us to be obedient to God even if the thoughts and intents of our own hearts say it's perfectly all right to disobey.
The picture of "fear" in the Old Testament is more complicated than the idea presented in the New Testament, because the Greek words phobos/phobeo are used to translate a number of different Hebrew words. But this also indicates that the NT uses of phobos/phobeo are much more nuanced than Wierwille would have had us believe.
More later.
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
Here's an interesting use of the fear of God,
Jeremiah 2:19
"19 Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear [pachad] is not in thee, saith the Lord God of hosts."
Some people say that fear comes from punishment, and God doesn't punish us anymore. That may well be, but does God still allow our wickedness to correct us? and our backslidings to reprove us? There ARE consequences to not fearing God, and those consequences are evil and bitter.
The evil and bitterness associated with TWI stem from Wierwille's and his followers' failure to pay attention the fear of God, their failure to accept reproof when they departed from Him.
It was MY failure, too, to the degree that I accepted Wierwille's admonition that I should not fear God. I accepted God's reproof and repented of my pride and arrogance, and He delivered me. He'll do it for anybody who is willing to look honestly at the condition of his own heart.
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
The fear of God is important because it is the only antidote to the deceitfulness and wickedness of the heart highlighted in Jeremiah 17:9.
The heart is so deceitful, it can convince people that they are still serving the Lord, when they have actually allowed their hearts to depart far from Him.
The touchstone for the fear of the Lord is this: Am I willing to reconsider the thoughts and intents of my heart if I see that they don't line-up with what's written in the Word (line-up overall... not just verses pulled out of context here and there)?
ALL of the terribleness that has come about as a result of Wierwille's teaching and practice has happened because people who thought they were serving God were being taught that they could do so without being obedient to the Lord's commandments.
Love,
Steve
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WordWolf
Before I go any further into this discussion, I want to know a bit more about
our common ground, what we already agree on.
Can we agree that vpw had neither RESPECT, REGARD nor AWE of God, and used
the TRAPPINGS while not actually CARING, meaning his talk of caring about
God was all talk, simply a SCRIPT to enact, a false face to wear, a mask?
Can we agree that if vpw had actually respected God, he would have cared
about doing things God said to do and avoiding things God said to avoid,
and would have at least been making an effort to do so rather than inventing
lies to claim God approved of every lust of his flesh and eyes and his pride
of life?
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Steve Lortz
I agree with everything you've said.
I think the problem we have in seeing eye-to-eye (to use the lingo of my current faith community) may be a result of the overly simplistic definition of "fear" that we learned. You wrote,"vpw had neither RESPECT, REGARD nor AWE of God, and used the TRAPPINGS while not actually CARING..." I submit that your use of the word "caring" may come more closely to the biblical sense of "fear/awe" than either of those words, "fear" and "awe", come in our everyday usage.
If we look at phobeo/phobos in the New Testament, it's hard to see how the single concept can be applied to both "terror", in the strictest sense of the word, and "respect" for God, but if we look at the various Hebrew words translated by phobeo/phobos, we can see there were nuances in the Old Testament that do not come out in the New Testament.
I don't really know where Wierwille got his definition of "fear" from, but it certainly wasn't from study of the Old Testament. For instance, let's look at Job 3:25, "For the thing which I greatly feared [pachad - Strong's #6342] is come upon me, and that which I was afraid [yagor - Strong's #3025] of is come unto me."
Seems simple enough, doesn't it? Fear is believing in reverse, and we're gonna get the things we fear, right?
But let's look a pachad in Job 23:15 in its context,
"13 But he [God] is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
"14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.
"15 Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid [pachad] of him.
"16 For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:"
When Job considered God, he was afraid, and God troubled his heart.
Now let's see how Job uses yagor in Job 9:28, "I am afraid [yagor] of all my sorrows, I know that thou [God] will not hold me innocent."
What does THAT mean? I'd be lying if I said I understand it completely, but it seems there is an element of fear associated with the idea of being held accountable by God.
Now there is a different flavor to the fear of pachad compared to the fear of yagor, but Job 3:25 holds these two kinds of fear in poetic parallel, meaning that the fear the author of Job was trying to express was a composite, or a synergism, of the meanings of pachad and yagor.
Was Wierwille communicating the biblical truth to us when he said that "fear" doesn't really mean "fear", it simply means "respect". There was an elementary truth to what he said. "Fear" CAN mean "respect", but it can also mean many more things, things that are communicated by the numerous different but intertwined words for "fear" in the Old Testament, and things that are communicated by your use of the word "care", WordWolf.
I've only scratched the surface, not only in what I've posted here, but also in my study of this topic in the Old Testament. I've seen enough to know there is a heck of a lot more in Jeremiah.
All for now!
Love,
Steve
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Mark Sanguinetti
I don't have much time to research this because of a heavy work schedule. However, I read the below from the Nelson Bible Dictionary and I agree with it. Like a lot of words both in English, Hebrew and Greek, their meaning depends on the context. And one more thing, in the Old Testament we only had half truths if that much. It was only through the life and ministry of our Lord Jesus Christ that we received the whole truth. Jesus is the Way, the truth and the life. So if Jesus says the greatest commandment is to love God above all. How can we love anyone if we fear them in a negative sense? As the Nelson Bible Dictionary points out if we fear God in a negative sense we will simply avoid God and want nothing to do with God or we will deliberately deny God even exists.
One more thing the same Hebrew word for fear is also translated respect in Lev. 19:3. Again this depends on the context of usage. Either that or we are also suppose to fear our parents. How can anyone have a positive experience with anyone that they know if they only fear them? If you fear anyone you know you are going to avoid them.
Lev 19:3
3 "'Each of you must respect his mother and father, and you must observe my Sabbaths. I am the LORD your God.
NIV
Lev 19:3
3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.
KJV
FEAR
A feeling of reverence, awe, and respect, or an unpleasant emotion caused by a sense of danger. Fear may be directed toward God or man, and it may be either healthy or harmful.
A healthy fear is reverence or respect. The Bible teaches that children are to respect their parents (Lev 19:3), wives are to respect their husbands (Eph 5:33), and slaves are to respect their masters (Eph 6:5). The Scriptures also declare that "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge" (Prov 1:7) as well as "the beginning of wisdom" (Prov 16:16).
A harmful fear is a sense of terror or dread. Believers are instructed not to fear human beings (Matt 10:28; Phil 1:28), because they cannot ultimately harm us. Wicked men, however, are constantly fearing other people, especially the righteous (Prov 28:1; Matt 14:5; Rom 13:3-4). Such fear causes them to act deceitfully in an attempt to hide their sins (2 Sam 11; Matt 28:4-15).
On the other hand, the unbeliever has every reason to be panic-stricken at thoughts of God, for he stands condemned before Him (Matt 10:28; John 3:18). And yet, this kind of fear of God does not often lead to repentance. It normally leads to a feeble attempt to hide from God (Gen 3:8; Rev 6:15-17) or worse, to a denial of God's existence and His claim on a person's life (Ps 14:1; Rom 1:18-28).
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright ©1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
Finally, perhaps essentially the same message above has already been expressed in other posts. In that case we agree.
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Steve Lortz
The idea that you cannot love a person and fear them at the same time is not as true to experience as it might first seem.
When I was a kid, we lived on a very busy street. There were a couple of trees in the front yard, and Mama told us we weren't to go closer to the street than a line drawn between those two trees, or we would get a switching. And when she caught us crossing that line, she switched us. It wasn't punishment, it was reproof. I loved my mother, and I knew she loved me, but I feared her when she used the switch.
I remember the day I was mad at Mama and ran out into the street in a fit of rebellious anger. I narrowly missed being hit. I learned THAT day to fear the CARS. Mama did NOT switch me that day, she was so thankful that I hadn't been hit, and I was truly ashamed of my foolishness. Mama NEVER had to take the switch to me again for that reason. I learned I needed to pay better attention to her, because her wisdom was greater than mine, and I would be better off if I were obedient.
There are still things nearly 60 years later that I never have done, and never will do, because I feared her when she used the switch. And yet I loved her dearly, and know that she loved me even more.
God doesn't switch people: "Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the LORD God of hosts." Jeremiah 2:19
Jeremiah 5:21-31
"21 Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:
"22 Fear [yare Strong's #3372] ye not me? saith the LORD: will ye not tremble at my presence, which have placed the sand for the bound of the sea by a perpetual decree, that it cannot pass it: and though the waves thereof toss themselves, yet can they not prevail; though they roar, yet can they not pass over it?
"23 But this people hath a revolting and a rebellious heart; they are revolted and gone.
"24 Neither say they in their heart, Let us now fear [yare Strong's #3372] the LORD our God, that giveth rain, both the former and the latter, in his season: he reserveth unto us the appointed weeks of the harvest.
"25 Your iniquities have turned away these things, and your sins have withholden good things from you.
"26 For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men.
"27 As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich.
"28 They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deedes of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy they do not judge.
"29 Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?
"30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;
"31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?"
Why does God talk so much about the sea in verse 22? Because God set the boundaries between chaos and order, and chaos and order are obedient to those boundaries, yet foolish people are not obedient to the boundaries God has set. They don't fear God. Wierwille was not obedient to the boundaries God set. Wierwille didn't fear God. He taught us to do the same.
The people in verses 23 and 24 had revolting and rebellious HEARTS. They did NOT say in their HEARTS, "Let us now fear the LORD our God." They could not say that God gave the rains and harvests, because they had eyes which did not see, and ears which did not hear, because they did not keep the fear of God before their eyes.
Verse 24 also shows us that God wants people to fear Him for his goodness.
And what happened? Did God switch them? No He did not! "Your iniquities have turned these things away. Your sins have withheld the good things." They got the consequences of their rebellion, but they couldn't understand why, because they had flattered themselves too much in their own eyes to even recognize that they were being rebellious.
Could there be a better description of The Way International than verses 26-28? Do they really think they can get away with it forever? Yes, they do, because there is no fear of God before their eyes.
If you've ever studied the Anglo-Saxon poem Beowulf, you know that in that Dark Age culture, the word "grim" had a vastly broader and more lofty meaning than it has today, a meaning we cannot now easily translate into English.
In the culture of Antiquity, both Jewish and gentile, the word "fear" likewise had a vastly broader and more lofty meaning than it has today. I would submit that none of our current definitions of "fear" come anywhere near to communicating the way it was understood in antiquity.
Love,
Steve
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Mark Sanguinetti
Steve you are a good bible student. So is Wordwolf who I know personally. He is very sharp and a very good bible student and his posts here reflect that. One of his major points which should be obvious to everyone is that the word fear is not a Hebrew word. It is an English word from the century that the King James Version was translated from the Hebrew for the Old Testament or for a few usages the Greek in the New Testament. I am sure you are aware of the many usages of this word, but I am not sure that everyone here is. Hence, my prior post. Wordwolf started this thread and I am sure he has done a lot of good study on this as I am sure you have done also. You both may just express things a little differently. Nevertheless we are in the 21st century now and the word fear has more negative usages now as Wordwolf has clearly pointed out. Unless you are prepared to go over all Old Testament usages of this original Hebrew word, which I know is over 200 or perhaps over 300. (I don't have my bible software on this computer I am now using.) Then I think you should also relate this word "fear" as to how it is used today also in explaining this concept. If this concept was expressed today the word fear would not have been used as many times as it was in the 16th century with the King James Version. Languages and means of expression change. The truth may not change, but the words of expression do change.
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