A very American thing, this. Something happens, and ya gotta write a book about it and your instant celebrity.
I wish this woman (all of them in fact) well, and know they have a lot of bad stuff that they will need to purge or get counselling for. But do they need to do it publicly?
A very American thing, this. Something happens, and ya gotta write a book about it and your instant celebrity.
I wish this woman (all of them in fact) well, and know they have a lot of bad stuff that they will need to purge or get counselling for. But do they need to do it publicly?
Twinkie
This happened in an area of Cleveland that is very depressed, economically. I know this first hand. I doubt she has many options to find gainful employment. Perhaps, in addition to the therapeutic aspect, this will give her an opportunity to provide for herself and her family. I really don't think she is seeking celebrity.
thank you rocky. the only reason i sometimes can't read these things - except in little bittie pieces - is because it takes me back to where i am still afraid to go at times
twinky, if this is an "american" thing i'm even prouder to be one
i say kudos to this gal and may it help her healing and many many others who are out there
love,ex
ps. years ago (but not that many) children who were assaulted molested beaten ravaged, etc., by their parents, uncles aunts priests teachers counselors coaches police etc. etc. etc. etc. KEPT THEIR MOUTHS SHUT
i thank God and our lord Jesus Christ that this has been changing
thank you rocky. the only reason i sometimes can't read these things - except in little bittie pieces - is because it takes me back to where i am still afraid to go at times
twinky, if this is an "american" thing i'm even prouder to be one
i say kudos to this gal and may it help her healing and many many others who are out there
love,ex
ps. years ago (but not that many) children who were assaulted molested beaten ravaged, etc., by their parents, uncles aunts priests teachers counselors coaches police etc. etc. etc. etc. KEPT THEIR MOUTHS SHUT
i thank God and our lord Jesus Christ that this has been changing
I agree... if this gal wants to tell her story publicly, that's up to her. She's brave. And yes, I can see how it can represent difficult triggers sometimes.
I understand Lindsay T (one of Victor Barnard's "maidens") has spoken with Karl Kahler... it might be interesting to see what Karl might be up to by digging into the VB saga.
Written by Kristen Skedgell Saturday, 29 March 2008
In order to speak, one must have a voice. Now this might seem obvious to most people but to people who have been abused in a cult, it's not always the case. The voice has been overtaken by another stronger voice, the voice of the leader. Through mind control, the cult leader imposes his will and views on the follower so the follower loses her own will and views. When mind control is accompanied by physical or sexual abuse, the task of speaking up becomes even more complicated and difficult.
Another excerpt from Kristen's post (linked above):
The code of silence is penetrated through one’s initial decision to heal and one’s courage to begin to tell the truth about oneself in a safe place. This, accompanied by education about physical, sexual, psychological and spiritual abuse allows the individual to start on the journey towards wholeness. True expression of one’s feelings, especially anger, makes healing possible. As one grows stronger, one may even expand the stage of disclosure to include the world at large.
So then, truth begets truth. Light begets light. But it is not enough to know the truth. Survivors of abuse are accustomed to disconnecting psychologically and emotionally from a painful reality . This dissociation is a major survival tool. In order to heal, it becomes necessary to connect with oneself, not dissociate from the trauma. In mind control situations, this again becomes doubly difficult because the conscience, overtaken by the cult leader, becomes an inner abuser and oppressor.
A very American thing, this. Something happens, and ya gotta write a book about it and your instant celebrity.
I wish this woman (all of them in fact) well, and know they have a lot of bad stuff that they will need to purge or get counselling for. But do they need to do it publicly?
This is no different then Philomena, a British woman who became pregnant at the age of 15 in 1952. Her father forced her to move into a Catholic convent where she gave birth. Her child was eventually given to an American couple pretty much against her will. The convent refused her any information and engaged in a cover up. In 2003 she went to the United States in search for her son and eventually found out about him. A story was written about this by a British author, who then published a book. Eventually an Englishman made the story into a movie that stars British actress Judy Dench who I'm sure you've heard of. It's a good movie by the way, worth watching. It actually kind of parallels some of the religious abuse that's often discussed here.
So publishing a book about abuse, then producing a movie based on that book, where both writer and subject make more than a modest some of money, isn't just a "very American thing" now, is it?
"Philomena is a 2013 drama film directed by Stephen Frears, based on the book The Lost Child of Philomena Lee by journalist Martin Sixsmith. Starring Judi Dench and Steve Coogan, it tells the true story of Philomena Lee's 50-year-long search for her son..."
Did the woman it happened to go out and write the book? No. She did go out and look for her lost child - but she didn't write the book. The story came to the attention of a journo. The journo wrote the book; he's the one who claims the credit. It made for a good film, which in fact didn't (in the way of dramatisations) match the facts. And I wonder if the film would have been made at all if there hadn't been an American connection (the son had been taken to America) - if he'd been taken to Kenya or France or Germany, would it have had the same market appeal?
"Selling your story" isn't really a Brit thing - unless you're selling your story to a tabloid newspaper, a gossip rag, and you're into "kiss-n-tell" about your torrid affair with a footballer, or some such. It's not to say that journos don't chase after people looking for what they hope might be a good story.
There are cultural issues here that you're overlooking. But that would be another thread.
If you want to get a feel for what this area looks like, you can get a google map and drag onto a street view. Here are some relevant streets: Seymore Ave., Clark Ave., Scranton Rd., W. 25th St., Train Ave. (All Cleveland, Ohio) You will notice in the photos there are churches seemingly everywhere.
"Philomena is a 2013 drama film directed by Stephen Frears, based on the book The Lost Child of Philomena Lee by journalist Martin Sixsmith. Starring Judi Dench and Steve Coogan, it tells the true story of Philomena Lee's 50-year-long search for her son..."
Did the woman it happened to go out and write the book? No. She did go out and look for her lost child - but she didn't write the book. The story came to the attention of a journo. The journo wrote the book; he's the one who claims the credit. It made for a good film, which in fact didn't (in the way of dramatisations) match the facts. And I wonder if the film would have been made at all if there hadn't been an American connection (the son had been taken to America) - if he'd been taken to Kenya or France or Germany, would it have had the same market appeal?
"Selling your story" isn't really a Brit thing - unless you're selling your story to a tabloid newspaper, a gossip rag, and you're into "kiss-n-tell" about your torrid affair with a footballer, or some such. It's not to say that journos don't chase after people looking for what they hope might be a good story.
There are cultural issues here that you're overlooking. But that would be another thread.
Michelle Knight isn't writing the book herself either. Much like when Princess Diana had help from a journalist when she wrote her tell-all book about the Royal Family years ago. I don't think there's an American connection there. Then there's Princess Fergie being caught on film years ago accepting 500,000 pounds from a journalist in exchange for access to Prince Andrew. Again, I don't see how someone telling a true story of abuse happening to them is an "American thing". This is not off topic because we're still talking about the book.
Really, as someone a million miles away from England and U.S.A , yes it (seems )it is an American thing. Everything somehow needs to be dramatized ! Having lived in the States and a number of other countries for a time, it appears many get confused where the daytime soap operas end and reality begins. I'm all for telling your story but maybe let it be done as a genuine warning to others and bringing bad people to justice and not as a therapeutical/celebrity/money spinning exercize. Unwittingly that oftenly ends up quasi glorifying the crime !
It's a mixed bag for me. On one hand, I do get weary of constant news coverage of these sorts of things. On the other hand, it has relevance to me because I have local ties. I lost a relative to crime in this same neighborhood. We weren't close but it still holds a special interest for me.
Everything somehow needs to be dramatized ! Having lived in the States and a number of other countries for a time, it appears many get confused where the daytime soap operas end and reality begins.
Amen to that! Same here! I could say the same thing about other countries, it's not just the Americans.
"I'm all for telling your story but maybe let it be done as a genuine warning to others and bringing bad people to justice"
Isn't that what's being done here?
"and not as a therapeutical/celebrity/money spinning exercize. Unwittingly that oftenly ends up quasi glorifying the crime!"
Who says that's the case here? Are you familiar with the story we're talking about? This all just sounds like anti-American sentiment and supposed cultural superiority to me. Am I wrong?
It's a mixed bag for me. On one hand, I do get weary of constant news coverage of these sorts of things. On the other hand, it has relevance to me because I have local ties. I lost a relative to crime in this same neighborhood. We weren't close but it still holds a special interest for me.
What constant news coverage? There hasn't been anything in the news for over a year. Even then, the three victims hardly said anything. Isn't one of them allowed to speak out without being accused of being a greedy money maker? I'm sorry about what happened to your relative.
I meant that in a generic sense. What we used to call "human interest segments" now seem to overshadow actual news events dealing with relevant information. Back in the day, news was a vehicle for providing needed information and facts. Now, there's far too much editorializing and sensationalism. (IMO)
Amen to that! Same here! I could say the same thing about other countries, it's not just the Americans.
"I'm all for telling your story but maybe let it be done as a genuine warning to others and bringing bad people to justice"
Isn't that what's being done here?
"and not as a therapeutical/celebrity/money spinning exercize. Unwittingly that oftenly ends up quasi glorifying the crime!"
Who says that's the case here? Are you familiar with the story we're talking about? This all just sounds like anti-American sentiment and supposed cultural superiority to me. Am I wrong?
Definitely not anti-American sentiment !! I thank God for America nearly every day...on the other hand I'm wondering if not being able to take a bit of criticism is a cultural thing'?! seems pretty prolific with quite a few...yes I do know the story, I follow news (from around the WORLD )
Really, as someone a million miles away from England and U.S.A , yes it (seems )it is an American thing. Everything somehow needs to be dramatized ! Having lived in the States and a number of other countries for a time, it appears many get confused where the daytime soap operas end and reality begins. I'm all for telling your story but maybe let it be done as a genuine warning to others and bringing bad people to justice and not as a therapeutical/celebrity/money spinning exercize. Unwittingly that oftenly ends up quasi glorifying the crime !
"Everything somehow needs to be dramatized!"
It's somebody's story. She has a right to tell it. What anyone does with it after that is not something she can be expected to control.
I don't mind criticism (not necessarily assuming you were criticizing any one of the posters/commenters here, including me), but I will offer some in return. Have you even considered what it's like to be in Ms. Knight's shoes?
I have plenty of disdain for corporate media that may exploit the situation for a salacious ratings grab, but really if the person whose story it is wants the story told, and people are interested in knowing it, who am I to judge her?
She doesn't come off as a publicity hound, but rather as someone who did, indeed experience unspeakable horror. It's not my place to judge her. I question whether it's any of ours.
What constant news coverage?
I meant that in a generic sense. What we used to call "human interest segments" now seem to overshadow actual news events dealing with relevant information. Back in the day, news was a vehicle for providing needed information and facts. Now, there's far too much editorializing and sensationalism. (IMO)
My question then would be, why are you watching it?
My question then would be, why are you watching it?
Fact is, I've stopped watching it, for the most part. There are still a few shows and web sites that provide information in a more neutral manner. I visit those for pertinent information that may affect me. Nothing is totally unbiased or neutral. That's why one has to look beyond the initial story and do some independent investigating. I'm just one of those people who enjoy learning new things and unlearning some old things.
People learn a great deal through vicarious experience, what to avoid and what to embrace. I suspect this book will provide that opportunity for its readers.
i think perhaps we're all talking a little bit about a little bit of different things
i have zero bad feelings toward any poster in this thread
i saw michelle on dr. phil (not a fan) and she seemed kind of "slow" mentally to me
i was touched heartbroken.... that she is leaving her son "be" because she doesn't want to disrupt his life and the loving (i think adoptive) parents he has only really known
anyway i don't know all the damn details, but none of us know what is really in the heart of people, save god.... i guess that includes you and me
love,ex
i hope she finds peace and i certainly don't begrudge her some physical comforts whatever
a very astute female lawyer (of hers i guess) was blown away by michelle and her wanting to do nothing but help others oh here i go, shut up ex ;)
You know what Twinky and Allen? I think I finally get it. It took awhile. You're talking about "keeping a stiff upper lip, don't let your problems hang out there for all to see", right? I can see where you might think of this is an "American thing", whereas it may not even occur to someone from Great Britain or another country to tell a story like this publically. You might even wonder what the point of doing that would be since it isn't going to change anything that happened.
An American who cuts their hand while cutting lettuce might go, "Oh my God!!! I've cut my hand, I'm bleeding! I need stitches!!! Take me to Emergency room immediately before I bleed to death!!!" The American would leave at once to get the stitches, and then later, in keeping with American tradition, sue the hospital.
Where a Brit might say in a very controlled tone, "Oh drat, I do believe I've cut my hand. It would seem I may need stitches. May I impose on you to take me to the Emergency Room at Hospital? Of course, I will reimburse you for any expenses you may incur. You will? Oh! You're too kind! Well, off with us then! No use in getting worked up is there? I mean it's not as if it's the end of the world or anything. May as well enjoy the ride."
Does that pretty much explain it?
i saw michelle on dr. phil (not a fan) and she seemed kind of "slow" mentally to me.
I think that's because he broke her jaw and she has permanent damage. I think...or maybe she's slow.
"a very astute female lawyer (of hers i guess) was blown away by michelle and her wanting to do nothing but help others oh here i go, shut up ex ;)/
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waysider
It looks like a good read but perhaps a bit too much for me, having grown up not far from where this happened.
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Twinky
A very American thing, this. Something happens, and ya gotta write a book about it and your instant celebrity.
I wish this woman (all of them in fact) well, and know they have a lot of bad stuff that they will need to purge or get counselling for. But do they need to do it publicly?
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waysider
Twinkie
This happened in an area of Cleveland that is very depressed, economically. I know this first hand. I doubt she has many options to find gainful employment. Perhaps, in addition to the therapeutic aspect, this will give her an opportunity to provide for herself and her family. I really don't think she is seeking celebrity.
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excathedra
thank you rocky. the only reason i sometimes can't read these things - except in little bittie pieces - is because it takes me back to where i am still afraid to go at times
twinky, if this is an "american" thing i'm even prouder to be one
i say kudos to this gal and may it help her healing and many many others who are out there
love,ex
ps. years ago (but not that many) children who were assaulted molested beaten ravaged, etc., by their parents, uncles aunts priests teachers counselors coaches police etc. etc. etc. etc. KEPT THEIR MOUTHS SHUT
i thank God and our lord Jesus Christ that this has been changing
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Rocky
I agree... if this gal wants to tell her story publicly, that's up to her. She's brave. And yes, I can see how it can represent difficult triggers sometimes.
I understand Lindsay T (one of Victor Barnard's "maidens") has spoken with Karl Kahler... it might be interesting to see what Karl might be up to by digging into the VB saga.
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excathedra
ps. i hope michelle knight makes tons of money from her book
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<3 Me too.
Btw, Kristen S, author of Losing the Way wrote something on the subject back in 2008.
On Breaking the Code of Silence
Written by Kristen Skedgell Saturday, 29 March 2008
In order to speak, one must have a voice. Now this might seem obvious to most people but to people who have been abused in a cult, it's not always the case. The voice has been overtaken by another stronger voice, the voice of the leader. Through mind control, the cult leader imposes his will and views on the follower so the follower loses her own will and views. When mind control is accompanied by physical or sexual abuse, the task of speaking up becomes even more complicated and difficult.
continued
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Rocky
Another excerpt from Kristen's post (linked above):
The code of silence is penetrated through one’s initial decision to heal and one’s courage to begin to tell the truth about oneself in a safe place. This, accompanied by education about physical, sexual, psychological and spiritual abuse allows the individual to start on the journey towards wholeness. True expression of one’s feelings, especially anger, makes healing possible. As one grows stronger, one may even expand the stage of disclosure to include the world at large.
So then, truth begets truth. Light begets light. But it is not enough to know the truth. Survivors of abuse are accustomed to disconnecting psychologically and emotionally from a painful reality . This dissociation is a major survival tool. In order to heal, it becomes necessary to connect with oneself, not dissociate from the trauma. In mind control situations, this again becomes doubly difficult because the conscience, overtaken by the cult leader, becomes an inner abuser and oppressor.
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excathedra
would love to respond and discuss this too tired
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Broken Arrow
This is no different then Philomena, a British woman who became pregnant at the age of 15 in 1952. Her father forced her to move into a Catholic convent where she gave birth. Her child was eventually given to an American couple pretty much against her will. The convent refused her any information and engaged in a cover up. In 2003 she went to the United States in search for her son and eventually found out about him. A story was written about this by a British author, who then published a book. Eventually an Englishman made the story into a movie that stars British actress Judy Dench who I'm sure you've heard of. It's a good movie by the way, worth watching. It actually kind of parallels some of the religious abuse that's often discussed here.
So publishing a book about abuse, then producing a movie based on that book, where both writer and subject make more than a modest some of money, isn't just a "very American thing" now, is it?
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Twinky
:offtopic:/>
Broken Arrow:
"Philomena is a 2013 drama film directed by Stephen Frears, based on the book The Lost Child of Philomena Lee by journalist Martin Sixsmith. Starring Judi Dench and Steve Coogan, it tells the true story of Philomena Lee's 50-year-long search for her son..."
Did the woman it happened to go out and write the book? No. She did go out and look for her lost child - but she didn't write the book. The story came to the attention of a journo. The journo wrote the book; he's the one who claims the credit. It made for a good film, which in fact didn't (in the way of dramatisations) match the facts. And I wonder if the film would have been made at all if there hadn't been an American connection (the son had been taken to America) - if he'd been taken to Kenya or France or Germany, would it have had the same market appeal?
"Selling your story" isn't really a Brit thing - unless you're selling your story to a tabloid newspaper, a gossip rag, and you're into "kiss-n-tell" about your torrid affair with a footballer, or some such. It's not to say that journos don't chase after people looking for what they hope might be a good story.
There are cultural issues here that you're overlooking. But that would be another thread.
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waysider
If you want to get a feel for what this area looks like, you can get a google map and drag onto a street view. Here are some relevant streets: Seymore Ave., Clark Ave., Scranton Rd., W. 25th St., Train Ave. (All Cleveland, Ohio) You will notice in the photos there are churches seemingly everywhere.
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Broken Arrow
Michelle Knight isn't writing the book herself either. Much like when Princess Diana had help from a journalist when she wrote her tell-all book about the Royal Family years ago. I don't think there's an American connection there. Then there's Princess Fergie being caught on film years ago accepting 500,000 pounds from a journalist in exchange for access to Prince Andrew. Again, I don't see how someone telling a true story of abuse happening to them is an "American thing". This is not off topic because we're still talking about the book.
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Really, as someone a million miles away from England and U.S.A , yes it (seems )it is an American thing. Everything somehow needs to be dramatized ! Having lived in the States and a number of other countries for a time, it appears many get confused where the daytime soap operas end and reality begins. I'm all for telling your story but maybe let it be done as a genuine warning to others and bringing bad people to justice and not as a therapeutical/celebrity/money spinning exercize. Unwittingly that oftenly ends up quasi glorifying the crime !
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waysider
It's a mixed bag for me. On one hand, I do get weary of constant news coverage of these sorts of things. On the other hand, it has relevance to me because I have local ties. I lost a relative to crime in this same neighborhood. We weren't close but it still holds a special interest for me.
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Broken Arrow
Amen to that! Same here! I could say the same thing about other countries, it's not just the Americans.
"I'm all for telling your story but maybe let it be done as a genuine warning to others and bringing bad people to justice"
Isn't that what's being done here?
"and not as a therapeutical/celebrity/money spinning exercize. Unwittingly that oftenly ends up quasi glorifying the crime!"
Who says that's the case here? Are you familiar with the story we're talking about? This all just sounds like anti-American sentiment and supposed cultural superiority to me. Am I wrong?
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Broken Arrow
What constant news coverage? There hasn't been anything in the news for over a year. Even then, the three victims hardly said anything. Isn't one of them allowed to speak out without being accused of being a greedy money maker? I'm sorry about what happened to your relative.
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waysider
What constant news coverage?
I meant that in a generic sense. What we used to call "human interest segments" now seem to overshadow actual news events dealing with relevant information. Back in the day, news was a vehicle for providing needed information and facts. Now, there's far too much editorializing and sensationalism. (IMO)
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Allan
Definitely not anti-American sentiment !! I thank God for America nearly every day...on the other hand I'm wondering if not being able to take a bit of criticism is a cultural thing'?! seems pretty prolific with quite a few...yes I do know the story, I follow news (from around the WORLD )
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Rocky
"Everything somehow needs to be dramatized!"
It's somebody's story. She has a right to tell it. What anyone does with it after that is not something she can be expected to control.
I don't mind criticism (not necessarily assuming you were criticizing any one of the posters/commenters here, including me), but I will offer some in return. Have you even considered what it's like to be in Ms. Knight's shoes?
I have plenty of disdain for corporate media that may exploit the situation for a salacious ratings grab, but really if the person whose story it is wants the story told, and people are interested in knowing it, who am I to judge her?
She doesn't come off as a publicity hound, but rather as someone who did, indeed experience unspeakable horror. It's not my place to judge her. I question whether it's any of ours.
My question then would be, why are you watching it?
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waysider
My question then would be, why are you watching it?
Fact is, I've stopped watching it, for the most part. There are still a few shows and web sites that provide information in a more neutral manner. I visit those for pertinent information that may affect me. Nothing is totally unbiased or neutral. That's why one has to look beyond the initial story and do some independent investigating. I'm just one of those people who enjoy learning new things and unlearning some old things.
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waysider
People learn a great deal through vicarious experience, what to avoid and what to embrace. I suspect this book will provide that opportunity for its readers.
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excathedra
i think perhaps we're all talking a little bit about a little bit of different things
i have zero bad feelings toward any poster in this thread
i saw michelle on dr. phil (not a fan) and she seemed kind of "slow" mentally to me
i was touched heartbroken.... that she is leaving her son "be" because she doesn't want to disrupt his life and the loving (i think adoptive) parents he has only really known
anyway i don't know all the damn details, but none of us know what is really in the heart of people, save god.... i guess that includes you and me
love,ex
i hope she finds peace and i certainly don't begrudge her some physical comforts whatever
a very astute female lawyer (of hers i guess) was blown away by michelle and her wanting to do nothing but help others oh here i go, shut up ex ;)
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Broken Arrow
You know what Twinky and Allen? I think I finally get it. It took awhile. You're talking about "keeping a stiff upper lip, don't let your problems hang out there for all to see", right? I can see where you might think of this is an "American thing", whereas it may not even occur to someone from Great Britain or another country to tell a story like this publically. You might even wonder what the point of doing that would be since it isn't going to change anything that happened.
An American who cuts their hand while cutting lettuce might go, "Oh my God!!! I've cut my hand, I'm bleeding! I need stitches!!! Take me to Emergency room immediately before I bleed to death!!!" The American would leave at once to get the stitches, and then later, in keeping with American tradition, sue the hospital.
Where a Brit might say in a very controlled tone, "Oh drat, I do believe I've cut my hand. It would seem I may need stitches. May I impose on you to take me to the Emergency Room at Hospital? Of course, I will reimburse you for any expenses you may incur. You will? Oh! You're too kind! Well, off with us then! No use in getting worked up is there? I mean it's not as if it's the end of the world or anything. May as well enjoy the ride."
Does that pretty much explain it?
I think that's because he broke her jaw and she has permanent damage. I think...or maybe she's slow.
"a very astute female lawyer (of hers i guess) was blown away by michelle and her wanting to do nothing but help others oh here i go, shut up ex ;)/
Please don't shut up, Excie.
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