Are You More Moral Than Yahweh?

[Raf]

It was literally the subject of the very first reply and addressed immediately.

Not in those words, but in those themes.

"Different laws for different cultures..."

Yeah. Times change. But that is the POINT: Why would objective morality change? That's like saying "the objective chemical formula for water changed."

No, it doesn't. The chemical formula for whatever stays the same.

But "morality" as a system of mutually accepted principles DOES change. I dare say it tends to improve, at least in the long run.

 

The problem you're not seeing is, understanding how religion evolves contradicts the Biblical principle that Yahweh, by the Bible's definition, does not change. Therefore, what he declared to be moral in 2017 BCE should be the same as what he declares to be moral in 2017 CE.

Note, I said what HE declares to be moral.

I've seen theists (not fundamentalists, but Christians) argue that when God ordered the children of Israel to kill women and children of foreigners, the people most harmed were the Israelites who did the killing.

That's how twisted people become justifying atrocity because it was ordered by a God.

Let ANY OTHER GOD order a genocide and Christians would cite it as evidence of that God's cruelty. but Yahweh gets a pass.

 

Relating the question of this thread to the real world requires an acceptance that Yahweh is real [which can be done as a hypothetical for the sake of exploring the issue without accepting it as a reality] and that the Bible is a source of information about his attributes. As such, you don't get the privilege of saying "that's a fundy approach" because to do so is to eliminate the Bible as a source of information about God's attributes. People somehow think it's perfectly fair to quote a verse saying "God is Love," perfectly okay to cite a verse where God says murder is wrong, usury is wrong, etc, but it's out of bounds for me to point out this same God never, anywhere, condemned the ownership of one human being by another, that this same God ordered executions for the pettiest of reasons, that this same God saw fit to punish rapists by making them compensate the victim (that girl's father: the girl's FATHER was considered the victim in a rape case) and having the rapist MARRY THE GIRL! That was his PUNISHMENT!

It's out of bounds for me to point that out, because that makes me fundy. But it's okay to point out that God is love.

The evolution of God is proof that the premise of this thread is correct: Yahweh was indeed a moral monster, and over time his reputation was overhauled by people who wanted to market him as something more palatable.

But Yahweh never changes, according to the Bible, so we have a problem. Something's got to be incorrect. Either he evolved or he didn't.

Nonetheless, the overarching point is simple: it is impossible to reconcile the depiction of Yahweh as the source of objective morality with the Bible's depiction of Yahweh, a most immoral character.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Raf

[Bolshevik]

I've tried to be clear where I look from.  I think I've failed there.  

The lens I look through usually goes back to biology.  DNA.  Deoxyribonucleaic acid.

Connect DNA, to God.  (not in some fundy/intelligent design sense)

Maybe I'll see your view down the road as I'm sure there will be more info, I just can't do that now.  
 

[waysider]

What about this:

The aforementioned actions attributed to God in the old testament, weighed against today's standards, would be considered immoral by many  people.

[Raf]

And they undermine any claim that "objective morality" is dependent on Yahweh's existence.

[waysider]

5 minutes ago, Raf said:

And they undermine any claim that "objective morality" is dependent on Yahweh's existence.

It's a hypothetical generalization, focused on the actions rather than those doing the acting, ignoring the existence or non-existrence of God.

[Bolshevik]

Yahweh killed people for picking up sticks on the wrong day?  So what.

What evil act did Yahweh do that every human being to ever exist isn't capable of worse?

[Raf]

Like I said, dishonest bad faith questions, uninterested in real dialogue. Shameless 

[Bolshevik]

Bad Faith?

Not Hobbes Vs Locke?

[Bolshevik]

1 hour ago, waysider said:

It's a hypothetical generalization, focused on the actions rather than those doing the acting, ignoring the existence or non-existrence of God.

I believe anybody is capable of anything.  Anything.

[Bolshevik]

It's the Shadow.  Did Yahweh have a Shadow?

Does the Devil represent his Shadow?  I don't know.  Never heard that idea.

Where's your shadow?  Did it inspire this question about Yahweh and OT Law?

How does one read all those things and come to the conclusion "I am more moral than Yahweh".  Idiotic.

 

[Raf]

Believing anyone can do anything and everything God does is excusable because of DNA and evolution and you decided to come up with some excise or other makes your opinion on this thread fairly pointless.

Your participation on this thread is logically indefensible and in bad faith. you do not seek dialogue. you are trolling. enough.

[Bolshevik]

Carl Jung said that I think.  

I'll take his word over yours, Raf.

[Bolshevik]

YOU are trolling.

The Way International is my evidence.  YOU are not more moral than Yahweh.

[waysider]

Even some (non-human) animals are capable of exhibiting a sense of morality and compassion.

[Bolshevik]

9 minutes ago, waysider said:

Even some (non-human) animals are capable of exhibiting a sense of morality and compassion.

I mentioned that earlier.

It's part of the explanation of where God is.  How it's part of evolution.

[Bolshevik]

Socrates said something about the shadow too, I just remembered.  Some old Greek one I think.

How you come out of TWI and think anything morally . . .  did you see people?

[Bolshevik]

If Zeus threw a lightning bolt at the bubble of a universe nested in a "free society" . . . wouldn't that wake people up?

(not condoning anything, don't go there)

[Bolshevik]

When I think "I am more moral than Yahweh"

It's like the thought form of a plastic face.

That's TWI . . . we're better.   Because we are.  No matter what happens.

[Raf]

I will say it again: NOTHING makes my point more strongly than the intellectually dishonest depths you have to sink to in order to challenge it.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Raf

[Raf]

Animals showing some semblance of morality is unrelated to this discussion and has no bearing on it.

 

[Bolshevik]

17 minutes ago, Raf said:

Animals showing some semblance of morality is unrelated to this discussion and has no bearing on it.

 

You did ask about starting a society from scratch in the first post.  Remove animals and evolution?  People evolved from them.

[Bolshevik]

God is above and within a society (real or not)

A person can't serve that role.  Unless it's someone like VPW.  

[Bolshevik]

On 11/12/2014 at 0:47 PM, Raf said:

1. For how many crimes do you feel it is appropriate to kill the perpetrator by having everyone in town surround him and throw heavy rocks at him until he dies?

1.a. Did a child being disobedient to his parents make the list?

1.b. Did picking up sticks after sunset on a Friday make the list?

2. If you were to start a society from scratch, how many laws regulating slavery would you require?

2.a. Would any of those laws crack your Top Ten list?

2.a.i. Why the hell not?

3. What difference should the marital status of a raped woman make in determining the punishment meted out to the rapist?

3a. Who is the victim in a rape case, and how much restitution is he due?

To be continued...

Your question implies an individual.  Can a hermit have morality?  You've got to interact with something, don't you?  I'm not sure but it sounds like you do.

For reasons I've previously stated an individual cannot, and should not consider, being more moral than a god.  (Like a VPW)

If by YOU you meant a large group . . . maybe we can get some traction.

We could call "Yahweh" the spirit of the group.  Like, team spirit.

How does a group organize itself?  What do they value?  What pressures do they face?  A lot of questions to answer.  I think those were the points about culture that were shot down.

We could compare groups.   My team is better than your team.  My god is better than your god.  As opposed to a person better than a god.

Is Yahweh a threat to anyone's group?  That group is gone, to my knowledge.

Can we bring in a modern god to work with?  Can we have some modern analogous god to compare to?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Raf]

Actively attempting to distort the plain meaning of the original post and subsequent discussion = trolling. 

If I wanted to compare societies I would have.

Obviously your difficulty grasping concepts like "You" and "Yahweh" make it tough for you to follow along in this conversation.

 

More obviously, you joined this thread to argue with me and will do so no matter WHAT I say. And that's the essence of trolling behavior. That you're still not embarrassed by your conduct or the vacuousness of your approach is baffling to me.

[Raf]

Last time: your definition of "God" is so vague and ethereal that it is not relevant to this discussion. You are mot talking about Yahweh. You are talking about that warm and fuzzy feeling you get when you see a dandelion. Your "evolving" God is not Yahweh, and therefore your approach to this discussion is off topic.

If the thread were called "Are you more moral than whatever vague concept of God Bolshevik can concoct while sitting on his thumb," you would be on topic.

But it's not.

Yahweh is a character with attributes defined in the Bible, not in your evolving imagination.

You have offered NO compelling reason to suggest we cannot examine Yahweh as portrayed in the Bible and compare his morality to our own. None.

The point of this thread has been examined with a proctoscope. You still don't understand the basics. I can't fathom why, but I suggest you examine your motive in trolling this discussion, because it is rather obviously not to engage in a rational discussion.