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Were we taught to be jerks in TWI?


Rocky
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Also from Bittersweet:

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If we could honor sadness a little more, maybe we could see it--rather than enforced smiles and righteous outrage--as the bridge we need to connect with each other. We could remember that no matter how distasteful we might find someone's opinions, no matter how radiant, or fierce, someone may appear, they have suffered, or they will.

Keltner, and the Greater Good Science Center that he cofounded, have developed many science-tested practices that can help us do exactly this.

An important first step is to cultivate humility. We know from various studies that attitudes of superiority prevent us from reacting to others' sadness--and even to our own. "Your vagus nerve won't fire when you see a child who is starving," Keltner says, if you think you're better than other people."

 

 

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Here's another book relevant to Victor's PFLAP scam. How clear was he ever in defining power?

Power to move mountains? Power to change the weather? Power to (make friends and) influence people?

To me, it was still all quite vague. Especially since he could talk about it, but as our good friend Skyrider has pointed out with specificity, he never really demonstrated any of the "power" manifestations of the spirit. Even if he had, eventually people would have realized doing so, coupled with his gobbledygook about the "law of believing" would actually have made it more abundantly clear that he was selling witchcraft, or occult arts.

So, in Susan Cain's book, Bittersweet (which rings true MUCH more than any of Victor's ramblings or rants), she cites Dacher Keltner. I now have in front of me, a Phoenix Public Library copy of Keltner's The Power Paradox: How we gain and lose influence

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The check out receipt happened to be put on the page with four principles related to the Abuse of Power.

Do ANY of these ring true when reflecting back on either Wierwille or Martindale and/or the culture they built and we tolerated for too long?

  • Power leads to empathy deficits and diminished moral sentiments
  • Power leads to self-serving impulsivity
  • Power leads to incivility and disrespect
  • Power leads to narratives of exceptionalism

I am amazed at how the scales have been removed from the eyes of my soul.

I am thankful that there's MUCH more insight into and about life than just what one can read in the King James Bible (or any other version). I am NOT at all surprised that Victor wanted to keep us from reading anything but his take on the "Word of God." All we like sheep...

 

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1 minute ago, Rocky said:

Do ANY of these ring true when reflecting back on either Wierwille or Martindale and/or the culture they built and we tolerated for too long?

  • Power leads to empathy deficits and diminished moral sentiments
  • Power leads to self-serving impulsivity
  • Power leads to incivility and disrespect
  • Power leads to narratives of exceptionalism

This takes me back to books I started reading in 2018 by author Ryan Holiday.

Ego is the Enemy

Stillness is the Key

The Obstacle is the Way

I have found that the REAL keys to Powerful and Abundant Living is in THESE books (and others I've cited in this GSC topic/thread). PFLAP and The Way International is, in my current view, the ANTITHESIS of godly living.

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I now reflect on how long it took me to start looking at my LBGTQ+ brothers and sisters as humans who God loves. It was YEARS after I exited Victor's way. And OMG! How hateful was Loy toward humans who were attracted to others who weren't the opposite gender?

Whether Rosie and Donna were a couple in that way or not only matters in recognizing or at least wondering if Loy's depth of emotion on the matter of homosexuality was rooted in his inability to be still and realize that his God and his Jesus still loved him AND his wife.

Can you reflect on any other area of belief or practice that you now can see as contrary to the two greatest commandments?

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LCM went over in the WAP Class I think, 

Kata Kratos, Power with an impact.  He would then punch the air.

I don't know if others remember that terminology.

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44 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

LCM went over in the WAP Class I think, 

Kata Kratos, Power with an impact.  He would then punch the air.

I don't know if others remember that terminology.

Impact on what? Punching the air seems like he didn't necessarily have anything more specific on the subject.

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10 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Impact on what? Punching the air seems like he didn't necessarily have anything more specific on the subject.

Against the Adversary and his forms usually. . .

Impact is a word. You'd usually use this word to describe objects.  Influence might be another word.

Punching seems impulsive to me.

Seems he said a lot.

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18 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Against the Adversary and his forms usually. . .

Impact is a word. You'd usually use this word to describe objects.  Influence might be another word.

Punching seems impulsive to me.

Seems he said a lot.

Sure he said a lot. But it still seems overly vague. Impact, I would usually use to describe actions. Do they have impact?

The adversary is a concept. Just like mathematics is a concept. Like mathematics, "the adversary" is imaginary. Bad things that happen to people are labeled with that word. That's the way the concept, in OUR IMAGINATION becomes concrete. Then it becomes a part of the limits we place on our imaginations and our actions.

Which brings me back, respectfully, to the question of impact on what?

Yes, Loy's air punching seems impulsive to me too. A lot of other things he said/says and did/does were probably impulsive.

As are many such things with each of us. But whether or not those things with him or us are abusive or not depends on... what impact our impulsive words/actions have on other people and ourselves... it seems to me. :wave:

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4 hours ago, Rocky said:

I now reflect on how long it took me to start looking at my LBGTQ+ brothers and sisters as humans who God loves. It was YEARS after I exited Victor's way. And OMG! How hateful was Loy toward humans who were attracted to others who weren't the opposite gender?

Whether Rosie and Donna were a couple in that way or not only matters in recognizing or at least wondering if Loy's depth of emotion on the matter of homosexuality was rooted in his inability to be still and realize that his God and his Jesus still loved him AND his wife.

Can you reflect on any other area of belief or practice that you now can see as contrary to the two greatest commandments?

 

I just want to fess up about the uncomfortable fit I forced myself into regarding TWI’s anti-LBGTQ stance. I have always identified myself as heterosexual but never had an issue over that stuff  until I joined TWI…

…and at the time, being an active musician and attending art school I had a  live and let live attitude  toward everyone and actually liked being surrounded by diversity. People different than me are a great inspiration since I tend to think I live a boring life of sameness. This is probably a confirmation bias I have – but I feel like artsy people tend to have a long suit in openness.  

…A person's tendency to be either open or closed to experience are likely influenced by both genetics and experience. In psychology, this is often known as the nature or nurture debate. The nature side of the debate argues that certain psychological tendencies are largely caused by heritable factors, while the nurture side of the debate suggests that experience and environmental factors play the most pivotal role…

Common Characteristics of Openness… People who are high in this trait are more likely to seek out new experiences. They enjoy things that are new, different, and surprising. They are also more likely to pay attention to their feelings and inner experiences...

People who are high in openness tend to have many of the following characteristics:

  • Creative
  • Intelligent and knowledgeable
  • Give great attention to mental imagery
  • Interested in new things
  • Enjoys hearing new ideas
  • Likes thinking about abstract concepts
  • Usually more liberal and open to diversity
  • Interested in artistic endeavors
  • Adventurous

From: Very Well Mind website: how openness influences your behavior

Kinda odd – for a ministry that bragged about having the power to open doors – TWI seemed to have a long suit in closing a lot of doors...I learned to close down my insides...to clam up...ignoring my feelings and inner experiences.

So anyway – the more I got involved in TWI – the more I felt a subliminal pressure to remove any leeway of choices in social contacts…be a lot stricter - I guess - on who I associated with or who I let influence me…it was stifling…and parallels the overreach of TWI when it comes to my taste in music. 

I loved everything from hard rock, blues, soul, rhythm and blues, jazz, jazz-rock fusion, classical, pop, country  - but during my time in TWI, I developed into a conflicted music lover...not that I was forced to put my muse on a leash – but to feel accepted by upper TWI-leadership, I suppressed…or rather ignored my preferences…I have a distinct memory of the time Don wierwille sat in the Rome City Chapel listening to our in-residence band practice a few ministry covers and some original stuff too. And later when we were wrapping things up - I remember his body language, facial expressions and tone of voice that seemed to take the wind out of my sails – with comments like something to the effect of “there’s so many musicians that want to perform in this ministry – and as corps we’ve got to be the best of the best ... every musician needs to learn how to read music…” As a self-taught musician I’ve always had self-esteem issues anyway over my wooden ear and never learning to read music. Was this suppose to be a pep talk? In general I think there was something subliminally present to get me to feel like I was never good enough during my entire time in-residence. Maybe it was the cumulative effect of all the brow-beatings, public shamings , pontificating leaders, moving the goal posts, sleep deprivation, malnutrition, and PFAL being driven into my head morning noon and night. 

Speaking of the 2nd great commandment. I loved my “neighbors” who were diverse – who influenced me growing up – all those genres I mentioned above – I loved to emulate them! I loved my neighbor as I love myself. I was pretty good for a self-taught bass player with a wooden ear. I would have such a deep sense of satisfaction when I could figure out the bass line of a tune – and I would be absolutely ecstatic when I got to the point I could improvise from that…have fun with it creating my own riffs - holy crap - I really learned something and I created something!!!!

the prejudices of TWI were infecting my muse. I remember a teaching by someone in way productions likening a worldly musician to a tractor-trailer driver.  He doesn’t really care what he’s hauling  (meaning the message, the sentiment, the feelings) cuz he just likes to drive the big rigs (perform his music). But we were taught that TWI-musicians were special - we  were hauling around a precious cargo - supposedly THE WORD of God     and even   just the music inspired godly feelings. What presumptuous tantalizing bull$hit!


You know – just in general one of the biggest areas of belief or practice that I now see as contrary to the two greatest commandments was the way I put a higher value on wierwille / PFAL than on what people actually neededI simply ignored what compassion for a fellow human being would compel me to do! It didn’t matter how down in the dumps somebody was or what their situation was – if they didn’t show any real interest in taking PFAL I dropped them like a hot potato. For 12 years I learned the fine art of putting TWI’s agenda ahead of God’s agenda (the 2 great commandments). Man, what a jerk I was!
 

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28 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

He doesn’t really care what he’s hauling (meaning the message, the sentiment, the feelings) cuz he just likes to drive the big rigs. But TWI-musicians were hauling around a precious cargo - supposedly THE WORD OF God and even the music inspired godly feelings. What presumptuous tantalizing bull$hit!


You know – just in general one of the biggest areas of belief or practice that I now see as contrary to the two greatest commandments was the way I put a higher value on wierwille / PFAL than on what people actually neededI simply ignored what compassion for a fellow human being would compel me to do! It didn’t matter how down in the dumps somebody was or what their situation was – if they didn’t show any real interest in taking PFAL I dropped them like a hot potato. For 12 years I learned the fine art of putting TWI’s agenda ahead of God’s agenda (the 2 great commandments). Man, what a jerk I was WE were!

I can give you a BIG amen on those sentiments. :love3:

5 hours ago, Rocky said:

four principles related to the Abuse of Power.

Do ANY of these ring true when reflecting back on either Wierwille or Martindale and/or the culture they built and we tolerated for too long?

  • Power leads to empathy deficits and diminished moral sentiments
  • Power leads to self-serving impulsivity
  • Power leads to incivility and disrespect
  • Power leads to narratives of exceptionalism

Amen and amen. I bought into it. The hook was so deep it has taken YEARS to unlearn a lot of it.

Let me mention again the two books, Bittersweet by Susan Cain and The Power Paradox by Dacher Keltner. I'm confident T-bone, that you'll love them. I found them both at my local public library.

Cain spells out that sadness fosters compassion and connectedness. 

Contrary to the cliche, "power corrupts," Keltner has found through his decades of research,

Quote

It is not human nature to abuse power.  

The first surprise that my scientific inquiry produced was this: our culture's understanding of power has been deeply and enduringly shaped by one person--Niccolo Machiavelli--and his powerful sixteenth century book The Prince. In that book the Florentine author argued that power is, in its essence, about force, fraud, ruthlessness, and strategic violence. Following Machiavelli, the widespread tendency has been to think of power as involving extraordinary acts of coercive force. 

Keltner argues that power is about making a difference in the world. So, his understanding does not incorporate the power of the mind (either God or the Occult) to make things happen just by a matter of our will...er, our believing.

Anyway, I already find his book fascinating.

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9 hours ago, Rocky said:

Sure he said a lot. But it still seems overly vague. Impact, I would usually use to describe actions. Do they have impact?

The adversary is a concept. Just like mathematics is a concept. Like mathematics, "the adversary" is imaginary. Bad things that happen to people are labeled with that word. That's the way the concept, in OUR IMAGINATION becomes concrete. Then it becomes a part of the limits we place on our imaginations and our actions.

Which brings me back, respectfully, to the question of impact on what?

Yes, Loy's air punching seems impulsive to me too. A lot of other things he said/says and did/does were probably impulsive.

As are many such things with each of us. But whether or not those things with him or us are abusive or not depends on... what impact our impulsive words/actions have on other people and ourselves... it seems to me. :wave:

I'm not sure what you are saying.  Bad things are imaginary?

His constant demonstration of how to view people as objects was shown in his punching the air.  His use of power is seen in other movements.

As you said, he reduced himself to the level of husband.  He was a cuck.  He allowed himself to be treated badly.  By VPW first and foremost.  Or I guess he decided this bad treatment was imaginary.  It obviously needed to vent in some direction, though.

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11 hours ago, Rocky said:

I now reflect on how long it took me to start looking at my LBGTQ+ brothers and sisters as humans who God loves. It was YEARS after I exited Victor's way. And OMG! How hateful was Loy toward humans who were attracted to others who weren't the opposite gender?

Whether Rosie and Donna were a couple in that way or not only matters in recognizing or at least wondering if Loy's depth of emotion on the matter of homosexuality was rooted in his inability to be still and realize that his God and his Jesus still loved him AND his wife.

Can you reflect on any other area of belief or practice that you now can see as contrary to the two greatest commandments?

At one point I was, maybe you were too, targeted, briefly, during the homo purge.  It made no sense.

The homo purge had nothing to do with homosexuality.  There had to be purge.  After that purge, another.  It's just a cycle.  Gays were not unique.  Having a mortgage was purge worthy.  2 1/2 beers was purge worthy.

Doesn't it begin with the idea that individuals don't exist?  If the self is just a concept, an imagination . . . If you don't exist, then other people don't either.  How do you even begin to follow these two commandments you speak of?

Not once did I ever here about Donna's love for LCM or LCM's love for Donna.  

Power with an IMPACT . . . weasel words we see outside of TWI as well . . . the individual does not exist.

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9 hours ago, Rocky said:

Amen and amen. I bought into it. The hook was so deep it has taken YEARS to unlearn a lot of it.

Let me mention again the two books, Bittersweet by Susan Cain and The Power Paradox by Dacher Keltner. I'm confident T-bone, that you'll love them. I found them both at my local public library.

Cain spells out that sadness fosters compassion and connectedness. 

I’ve put Bittersweet and Power Paradox on my reading list – thanks for mentioning those again, Rocky! …also put on list one you mentioned way earlier – Atlas of the Heart…and I need to take advantage of the local library…Tonto bugs me occasionally to check out the library instead of buying more books...that's when I rationalize and tell her but they're on Kindle and don't take up much room...but I do see her point.:rolleyes:

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3 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

I'm not sure what you are saying.  Bad things are imaginary?

Bad things happen... to individuals, groups, society. That's not imaginary.

In fact, in the Gospel of John 16:33, Jesus states. 

Quote

33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”

That's abstract, until you encounter actual events that cause you trouble.

I probably should have used the word "abstract" instead of imaginary. But abstract ideas actually occur in our imagination, don't they? :thinking:

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10 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Bad things happen... to individuals, groups, society. That's not imaginary.

In fact, in the Gospel of John 16:33, Jesus states. 

That's abstract, until you encounter actual events that cause you trouble.

I probably should have used the word "abstract" instead of imaginary. But abstract ideas actually occur in our imagination, don't they? :thinking:

So are you saying The Class is an abstract?

Kata Kratos . . . take another language most don't speak, greek I guess . . . say some english words for association . . . "Power with an impact" . . . 

Impact outside of TWI is taken as "it doesn't matter the intent . . . only the impact" . . . meaning whoever has power can interpret anything anyway they wish

Perhaps the word "arbitrary" can be thrown in now.  

If bad is arbitrary, so is good.

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4 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

So are you saying The Class is an abstract? I made no such claim.

Kata Kratos . . . take another language most don't speak, greek I guess . . . say some english words for association . . . "Power with an impact" . . . 

Impact outside of TWI is taken as "it doesn't matter the intent . . . only the impact" . . . meaning whoever has power can interpret anything anyway they wish HUH?

 

I'll digress. Impact on what?

Power is an abstract (and vague) concept until some (not vague) explanation makes it concrete. Dachen Keltner defines it in terms meaningful to human interaction.

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https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/may/18/the-power-paradox-how-we-gain-and-lose-influence-dacher-keltner-review

Not sure I agree with him.

Ok, his take on the chimps . . . yes chimps who learn to form alliances have more stable power than the ones who may be physically stronger than everyone, but not everyone together when they team up.  He jumps right to "Rather, it is those who demonstrate empathy and enthusiasm, solve others’ problems and otherwise further the greater good."  

 

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/may/18/the-power-paradox-how-we-gain-and-lose-influence-dacher-keltner-review

Not sure I agree with him. Okay. I'm fine with you taking whatever position you want about the subject.

Ok, his take on the chimps . . . yes chimps who learn to form alliances have more stable power than the ones who may be physically stronger than everyone, but not everyone together when they team up.  He jumps right to "Rather, it is those who demonstrate empathy and enthusiasm, solve others’ problems and otherwise further the greater good."  

 

 

That quote sounds very much like Frans de Waal, the primatologist. I first became aware of that in 2018 or 2019 from a TED talk he gave. It resonated with me right away, not necessarily having anything to do with Loy or Victor. 

But it (both the Power Paradox book and de Waal's TED talk) DOES give indications of how Loy became so easy to knock out of the TWI alpha male position once Paul Allen decided to take legal action. Loy's conduct was so egregiously evil and abusive of the power followers of Victor's ministry tacitly delegated to him, largely without realizing they had done so.

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From the Guardian story:

Quote

The sole basis for optimism is Keltner’s conclusion that serving the common good is, ultimately, in the self-interest of the powerful, if they can only resist the temptation to turn into jerks instead. “Stay focused on other people … Bring the good in others to completion … Take delight in the delights of others, as they make a difference in the world,” he advises.

I agree completely.

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27 minutes ago, Rocky said:

 . . . Loy's conduct was so egregiously evil and abusive of the power followers of Victor's ministry tacitly delegated to him, largely without realizing they had done so.

Specifics.  

What did Loy Craig Martindale do?  

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36 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Specifics.  

What did Loy Craig Martindale do?  

Oh? I thought you already knew. From your personal experience and observation. Far be it from me to do anything but defer to you to describe it and/or suggest interested readers to employ the search function at the top right on the page.

If you can share some of your experience and observation without being overly triggered, please do.

In the simplest terms, from my perspective, he was known to sexually harass, abuse, and coerce women especially employees of The Way Corporation.

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1 hour ago, Rocky said:

Oh? I thought you already knew. From your personal experience and observation. Far be it from me to do anything but defer to you to describe it and/or suggest interested readers to employ the search function at the top right on the page.

If you can share some of your experience and observation without being overly triggered, please do.

In the simplest terms, from my perspective, he was known to sexually harass, abuse, and coerce women especially employees of The Way Corporation.

I know he had an affair, in his words, the letter he wrote to everyone about the first lawsuit, . . . and I knew some folks involved, 

I do not know specifics.  Nor have I read any here.

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48 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

I know he had an affair, in his words, the letter he wrote to everyone about the first lawsuit, . . . and I knew some folks involved, 

I do not know specifics.  Nor have I read any here.

I thought you had your own stories regarding Loy? I don't expect he tried to sexually assault you, but haven't you expressed your animas toward him on GSC previously? 

Waydale, predecessor to GSC was primarily about Loy and his harassment. I'd be surprised if none of that remains on GSC. 

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Btw, this is a back cover blurb on Power Paradox attributed to Frans de Waal, author of Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are?

Quote

That power is not taken but given is true for most human relations today. It has ancient roots in primate behavior. Dacher Keltner applies a lifetime of research to the topic,, offering a lively description of how true power is like a return on a social investment in others.

 

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