"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for"
"Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world"
I've never been a fan of the song. As a thought experiment, to "IMAGINE", it's not bad by itself. When trying to make it happen, it doesn't even work on paper. All previous attempts have failed drastically, all due to human nature.
Communism is allegedly based on Karl Marx' ideology- his "philosophy"- and in this context, I consider it no different from any other DOGMA, any religion included.
SUPPOSEDLY, people would agree to work together- but every time someone tries to put these ideas into practice, they've failed miserably. Part of that is that Karl Marx never articulated HOW to get there and how to MAINTAIN this society, and human nature runs at cross purposes with this. Allow everyone to work on "the honor system" and there will always be those who try to cheat- who consider themselves above a "fair share". Two countries have allegedly been large "communist" countries- China and Russia, and both countries CLAIM to be communist but are in reality both OLIGARCHIES, where a handful of people have seized all the money and all the power.
Humans will organize themselves into societies, and those societies will organize(eventually) into countries. People do that. They also come up with things to kill over, even if it's just "more food" or "the best food" or "the best houses." And that increases as the societies increase- societies where nobody has ANYTHING seem to be the happiest and least jealous. Add ANY resource into the mix, and the party is over.
Having no possessions has always appealed to the have-nots. Societies that have allegedly agreed to that have a handful of people at the top who control all the possessions, and pay lip service to the party line. People who actually have some possessions won't agree so loudly to the "we share everything" concept. That's been mentioned over and over in different cultures. In fact, different comedians have outlined why in terms of their own culture. (My favorite was Paul Rodriguez. "Mexico CAN'T be Communist. I'd like to see a Bolshevik go down to el barrio, and explain to some guy named Little Frog, that now, under Communism, The State now owns his CHEVY. 'Let me get this straight, vato...you're saying ANYONE can drive my turbo?' *opens switchblade* I don't think so. Communist Manifesto this.' ")
No greed? Seriously? I think there's MORE greed where those claims are made. There's certainly more hoarding and shortages- caused by greed and hoarding at the top. Sharing all the world? The first countries that really dismiss their military over that will probably be the first countries annexed overnight by greedier neighbors who don't want to "share."
Hey- in the Jesus People days, there were people who tried this. They had to stop. Many of the hippies were cooperative, but there's always someone who will ruin something nice for everyone. Someone who doesn't want to work and wants a place to stay, free food, etc. That was the undoing of some noble, well-intentioned home experiments. For that matter, those welcoming people welcomed vpw, and that was an even bigger disaster.
One doesn't have to look for RELIGIOUS reasons for people to be selfish, greedy, blood-thirsty, self-centered.... these are endemic to the human condition. Josef Stalin wiped out his own farmers to steal their food. The USSR had some amazing bloody pogroms. (For that matter, you don't have to look back in history all the way to Stalin, there's more recent examples.)
As a science fiction fan, I can IMAGINE magickal places and wonders of super-technology. I can IMAGINE societies where this works. But these imaginings don't ring true, and even the fiction I read doesn't try to convince me of them.
"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for"
"Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world"
I've never been a fan of the song. As a thought experiment, to "IMAGINE", it's not bad by itself. When trying to make it happen, it doesn't even work on paper. All previous attempts have failed drastically, all due to human nature.
Communism is allegedly based on Karl Marx' ideology- his "philosophy"- and in this context, I consider it no different from any other DOGMA, any religion included.
SUPPOSEDLY, people would agree to work together- but every time someone tries to put these ideas into practice, they've failed miserably. Part of that is that Karl Marx never articulated HOW to get there and how to MAINTAIN this society, and human nature runs at cross purposes with this. Allow everyone to work on "the honor system" and there will always be those who try to cheat- who consider themselves above a "fair share". Two countries have allegedly been large "communist" countries- China and Russia, and both countries CLAIM to be communist but are in reality both OLIGARCHIES, where a handful of people have seized all the money and all the power.
Humans will organize themselves into societies, and those societies will organize(eventually) into countries. People do that. They also come up with things to kill over, even if it's just "more food" or "the best food" or "the best houses." And that increases as the societies increase- societies where nobody has ANYTHING seem to be the happiest and least jealous. Add ANY resource into the mix, and the party is over.
Having no possessions has always appealed to the have-nots. Societies that have allegedly agreed to that have a handful of people at the top who control all the possessions, and pay lip service to the party line. People who actually have some possessions won't agree so loudly to the "we share everything" concept. That's been mentioned over and over in different cultures. In fact, different comedians have outlined why in terms of their own culture. (My favorite was Paul Rodriguez. "Mexico CAN'T be Communist. I'd like to see a Bolshevik go down to el barrio, and explain to some guy named Little Frog, that now, under Communism, The State now owns his CHEVY. 'Let me get this straight, vato...you're saying ANYONE can drive my turbo?' *opens switchblade* I don't think so. Communist Manifesto this.' ")
No greed? Seriously? I think there's MORE greed where those claims are made. There's certainly more hoarding and shortages- caused by greed and hoarding at the top. Sharing all the world? The first countries that really dismiss their military over that will probably be the first countries annexed overnight by greedier neighbors who don't want to "share."
Hey- in the Jesus People days, there were people who tried this. They had to stop. Many of the hippies were cooperative, but there's always someone who will ruin something nice for everyone. Someone who doesn't want to work and wants a place to stay, free food, etc. That was the undoing of some noble, well-intentioned home experiments. For that matter, those welcoming people welcomed vpw, and that was an even bigger disaster.
One doesn't have to look for RELIGIOUS reasons for people to be selfish, greedy, blood-thirsty, self-centered.... these are endemic to the human condition. Josef Stalin wiped out his own farmers to steal their food. The USSR had some amazing bloody pogroms. (For that matter, you don't have to look back in history all the way to Stalin, there's more recent examples
As a science fiction fan, I can IMAGINE magickal places and wonders of super-technology. I can IMAGINE societies where this works. But these imaginings don't ring true, and even the fiction I read doesn't try to convince me of them.
I agree with you.
Some of the only groups that have successfully lived the lyrics are religious ones. Around my area of the country there are Hutterites who live a communist lifestyle. They all live in the same cummunity, all have a job to perform, and all well taken care of physically.
The Hutterites grow their own vegetable and fruit, and raise their own meat. They make money selling their products to the commubnity.
That sounds good. It's sometimes tricky to know for sure what goes on in insulated communities. We hear that Amish communities are squeaky-clean and abhor technology. From what I've heard, they avoid "the grid" but don't mind locally generating their own power and using power tools. Also, some of them are definitely not as squeaky-clean as they are meant to be (primarily during their time to consider the outside world instead.)
If these Hutterites take care of each other as a community, that's incredibly rare and a very nice thing.
I don't mind IMAGINING people without barriers, but it's endemic to the human condition- people form societies and define them by who is "us" and who is "them." Without eliminating that (which isn't possible for us), people will come up with things to kill and die for, some will remain greedy and so on. There are people in society that don't need constant reminders to do the right thing, but most of them DO have the law there to remind them where the lines are in their culture/society. Statistically few people will continue to do the right thing just because it's the right thing without the law defining the lines (5%, IIRC, 1 in 20.)
That sounds good. It's sometimes tricky to know for sure what goes on in insulated communities. We hear that Amish communities are squeaky-clean and abhor technology. From what I've heard, they avoid "the grid" but don't mind locally generating their own power and using power tools. Also, some of them are definitely not as squeaky-clean as they are meant to be (primarily during their time to consider the outside world instead.)
If these Hutterites take care of each other as a community, that's incredibly rare and a very nice thing.
I don't mind IMAGINING people without barriers, but it's endemic to the human condition- people form societies and define them by who is "us" and who is "them." Without eliminating that (which isn't possible for us), people will come up with things to kill and die for, some will remain greedy and so on. There are people in society that don't need constant reminders to do the right thing, but most of them DO have the law there to remind them where the lines are in their culture/society. Statistically few people will continue to do the right thing just because it's the right thing without the law defining the lines (5%, IIRC, 1 in 20.)
I don’t know if the Hutterites are squeaky-clean or even what that means. They definitely use electricity, use farm and ranch modern equipment, drive gasoline engine cars, drink booze, buy items from local stores, sell meat, produce, eggs, chickens to local residents and stores. They allow people to hunt on their property.
I have no idea what goes on inside the colony. They pay property taxes and income taxes at the corporate level. They do no have an individual income tax. They do not draw unemployment or collect government subsidies such as welfare or snap.
Lennon admitted his inspiration for Imagine was actually taken from poems Yoko Ono had written. He basically plagiarized some of her writings by not giving her credit for her work.
He also stated it was from the Communist Manifesto.
I don't mind IMAGINING people without barriers, but it's endemic to the human condition- people form societies and define them by who is "us" and who is "them." Without eliminating that (which [CURRENTLY] isn't possible for us [HUMANITY] ), people will come up with things to kill and die for, some will remain greedy and so on.
I'm hopeful someday, humanity will be able to do this things. Go to the ant, thou sluggard.
That is, if humanity survives as long as ants have on our planet.
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Stayed Too Long
One of the lyrics is, “Image no possessions. It’s easy if you try.”
John certainly did not live up to this standard, as he had wealth and justified being wealthy.
https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/john-lennon-felt-guilty-having-money.html/
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Rocky
What's the standard in that lyric?
The action word is "imagine," isn't it? Did he imagine? Did he try to imagine what he'd do with or without money?
I appreciate the story at that link. Thanks.
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WordWolf
"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for"
"Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world"
I've never been a fan of the song. As a thought experiment, to "IMAGINE", it's not bad by itself. When trying to make it happen, it doesn't even work on paper. All previous attempts have failed drastically, all due to human nature.
Communism is allegedly based on Karl Marx' ideology- his "philosophy"- and in this context, I consider it no different from any other DOGMA, any religion included.
SUPPOSEDLY, people would agree to work together- but every time someone tries to put these ideas into practice, they've failed miserably. Part of that is that Karl Marx never articulated HOW to get there and how to MAINTAIN this society, and human nature runs at cross purposes with this. Allow everyone to work on "the honor system" and there will always be those who try to cheat- who consider themselves above a "fair share". Two countries have allegedly been large "communist" countries- China and Russia, and both countries CLAIM to be communist but are in reality both OLIGARCHIES, where a handful of people have seized all the money and all the power.
Humans will organize themselves into societies, and those societies will organize(eventually) into countries. People do that. They also come up with things to kill over, even if it's just "more food" or "the best food" or "the best houses." And that increases as the societies increase- societies where nobody has ANYTHING seem to be the happiest and least jealous. Add ANY resource into the mix, and the party is over.
Having no possessions has always appealed to the have-nots. Societies that have allegedly agreed to that have a handful of people at the top who control all the possessions, and pay lip service to the party line. People who actually have some possessions won't agree so loudly to the "we share everything" concept. That's been mentioned over and over in different cultures. In fact, different comedians have outlined why in terms of their own culture. (My favorite was Paul Rodriguez. "Mexico CAN'T be Communist. I'd like to see a Bolshevik go down to el barrio, and explain to some guy named Little Frog, that now, under Communism, The State now owns his CHEVY. 'Let me get this straight, vato...you're saying ANYONE can drive my turbo?' *opens switchblade* I don't think so. Communist Manifesto this.' ")
No greed? Seriously? I think there's MORE greed where those claims are made. There's certainly more hoarding and shortages- caused by greed and hoarding at the top. Sharing all the world? The first countries that really dismiss their military over that will probably be the first countries annexed overnight by greedier neighbors who don't want to "share."
Hey- in the Jesus People days, there were people who tried this. They had to stop. Many of the hippies were cooperative, but there's always someone who will ruin something nice for everyone. Someone who doesn't want to work and wants a place to stay, free food, etc. That was the undoing of some noble, well-intentioned home experiments. For that matter, those welcoming people welcomed vpw, and that was an even bigger disaster.
One doesn't have to look for RELIGIOUS reasons for people to be selfish, greedy, blood-thirsty, self-centered.... these are endemic to the human condition. Josef Stalin wiped out his own farmers to steal their food. The USSR had some amazing bloody pogroms. (For that matter, you don't have to look back in history all the way to Stalin, there's more recent examples.)
As a science fiction fan, I can IMAGINE magickal places and wonders of super-technology. I can IMAGINE societies where this works. But these imaginings don't ring true, and even the fiction I read doesn't try to convince me of them.
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Stayed Too Long
Lennon believes what he is singing about and is attempting to get listeners to, at least, imagine what it would be like if they lived the lyrics.
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Stayed Too Long
I agree with you.
Some of the only groups that have successfully lived the lyrics are religious ones. Around my area of the country there are Hutterites who live a communist lifestyle. They all live in the same cummunity, all have a job to perform, and all well taken care of physically.
The Hutterites grow their own vegetable and fruit, and raise their own meat. They make money selling their products to the commubnity.
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WordWolf
That sounds good. It's sometimes tricky to know for sure what goes on in insulated communities. We hear that Amish communities are squeaky-clean and abhor technology. From what I've heard, they avoid "the grid" but don't mind locally generating their own power and using power tools. Also, some of them are definitely not as squeaky-clean as they are meant to be (primarily during their time to consider the outside world instead.)
If these Hutterites take care of each other as a community, that's incredibly rare and a very nice thing.
I don't mind IMAGINING people without barriers, but it's endemic to the human condition- people form societies and define them by who is "us" and who is "them." Without eliminating that (which isn't possible for us), people will come up with things to kill and die for, some will remain greedy and so on. There are people in society that don't need constant reminders to do the right thing, but most of them DO have the law there to remind them where the lines are in their culture/society. Statistically few people will continue to do the right thing just because it's the right thing without the law defining the lines (5%, IIRC, 1 in 20.)
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Stayed Too Long
I don’t know if the Hutterites are squeaky-clean or even what that means. They definitely use electricity, use farm and ranch modern equipment, drive gasoline engine cars, drink booze, buy items from local stores, sell meat, produce, eggs, chickens to local residents and stores. They allow people to hunt on their property.
Edited by Stayed Too LongI have no idea what goes on inside the colony. They pay property taxes and income taxes at the corporate level. They do no have an individual income tax. They do not draw unemployment or collect government subsidies such as welfare or snap.
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Stayed Too Long
Lennon admitted his inspiration for Imagine was actually taken from poems Yoko Ono had written. He basically plagiarized some of her writings by not giving her credit for her work.
He also stated it was from the Communist Manifesto.
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/articles/features/the_story_behind_imagine_by_john_lennon-83853
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Rocky
I'm hopeful someday, humanity will be able to do this things. Go to the ant, thou sluggard.
That is, if humanity survives as long as ants have on our planet.
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chockfull
Imagine modern day despots……
Who are actually atheists.
Ok that’s my attempt at writing another verse…
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