I've got mixed feelings about this topic. One the one hand, yes the old testament teaches that it's a perpetual land grant. On the other hand, numerous other Christians believe Jesus ended this prophecy with the church of the body which is comprised of Jew and Gentile, the modern-day Israel. Preterists do not believe in the [perpetual] land grant and I don't believe TWI did either.
This thread is inherently political. Our only reason to examine the question at hand is steeped in politics.
All I'm after is the biblical...honest... have friends on both sides of the argument and am sincerely torn between the two. Raf can you offer your biblical wisdom?
To me, even if you remove current politics from it, you get the following question:
"Can a nation claim land on the legal grounds that an Imaginary Being granted the land to an Imaginary Ancestor, sealed by self-mutilation at a date and time witnessed by no one but recorded for posterity after the fact by people living better than a thousand years later?
Pray tell, why should anyone who DOESN'T worship this god be bound by this bequest?
Can a nation claim land on the legal grounds that an Imaginary Being granted the land to an Imaginary Ancestor, sealed by self-mutilation at a date and time witnessed by no one but recorded for posterity after the fact by people living better than a thousand years later?
The claim certainly can be asserted. And the assertion may even be sincere. But on legal grounds?
See, that's my problem. If it's history, it's not credible and the only reason to discuss it is politics.
If we're talking about doctrine, there's really nothing debatable about it. Yeah, God said this land is your land. Doctrinally. But history can't even document the existence of Abraham, never mind God. And if we're going to allow divine real estate transactions to determine land rights, there are probably a handful of Native American believers in the Great Spirit who have a problem or two with our current state borders.
And if we're going to allow divine real estate transactions to determine land rights, there are probably a handful of Native American believers in the Great Spirit who have a problem or two with our current state borders.
See, that's my problem. If it's history, it's not credible and the only reason to discuss it is politics.
If we're talking about doctrine, there's really nothing debatable about it. Yeah, God said this land is your land. Doctrinally. But history can't even document the existence of Abraham, never mind God. And if we're going to allow divine real estate transactions to determine land rights, there are probably a handful of Native American believers in the Great Spirit who have a problem or two with our current state borders.
Oh, but THEIR Great Spirit is not God. Got it.
Yeah you start to mix up politics and religion and real estate then you have a real mess.
Or a new tv series idea lol
With Israel more recent history implies a few warring tribes with conflict dating back a thousand years. It’s just one of them has nukes and Western support.
Native Americans rather than having the Great Spirit define their living boundaries have instead had a cruel government dictate them, and ensure generational poverty by giving them an acre of land and a crappy model home. Alaskan natives fared better with their deals with the government happening much later. They own a piece of the oil pipeline and are rich. So many native corporations now are winning government contract bids in many different areas.
I can’t do a thing about the Israel conflict all I can do is keep a good relationship with my own neighbors and pray and hope for the best.
Thanks for posting up the prevalent views in the topic guys.
See, that's my problem. If it's history, it's not credible and the only reason to discuss it is politics.
If we're talking about doctrine, there's really nothing debatable about it. Yeah, God said this land is your land. Doctrinally. But history can't even document the existence of Abraham, never mind God. And if we're going to allow divine real estate transactions to determine land rights, there are probably a handful of Native American believers in the Great Spirit who have a problem or two with our current state borders.
Oh, but THEIR Great Spirit is not God. Got it.
What's your take on Ward's offering? Specifically, the completed works of Christ biblically ended the old covenant and the "land grant"?
Not sure why my opinion is of any particular interest, but I would suggest a plain reading of Revelation reveals Yahweh still has a great interest in Israel as a nation and people. I doubt anyone could say definitively that the covenant was ended, especially since it was an everlasting covenant. I could easily be wrong, my G.A.S. having lapsed some time ago.
Not sure why my opinion is of any particular interest, but I would suggest a plain reading of Revelation reveals Yahweh still has a great interest in Israel as a nation and people. I doubt anyone could say definitively that the covenant was ended, especially since it was an everlasting covenant. I could easily be wrong, my G.A.S. having lapsed some time ago.
Thx Raf for your opinion. I'm leaning to the preterist view, i.e., Christ's completed work eventually established the 'body of Christ', the true modern-day Israel, inhabited by both Jew and Gentile believers in Christ-- that negates the old covenant of Israel under Judaism. The preterist belief also is shared by some very strict Catholics who have been described as 'partial-preterists' by the preterists themselves. Some trad Catholics still believe that Jews and Gentiles who haven't accepted Christ as Lord and Savior are destined to hell because of original sin. Am working on a short video of someone sharing that viewpoint that can be posted here in a few days.
BTW here is Ward's "letter to his Dad" concerning Darby, if anyone is interested:
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oldiesman
Here is an offering from a friend who shares the Preterist view on this topic:
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Raf
This thread is inherently political. Our only reason to examine the question at hand is steeped in politics.
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oldiesman
All I'm after is the biblical...honest... have friends on both sides of the argument and am sincerely torn between the two. Raf can you offer your biblical wisdom?
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Raf
I can't.
To me, even if you remove current politics from it, you get the following question:
"Can a nation claim land on the legal grounds that an Imaginary Being granted the land to an Imaginary Ancestor, sealed by self-mutilation at a date and time witnessed by no one but recorded for posterity after the fact by people living better than a thousand years later?
Pray tell, why should anyone who DOESN'T worship this god be bound by this bequest?
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Nathan_Jr
The claim certainly can be asserted. And the assertion may even be sincere. But on legal grounds?
Here are some other asserted claims:
”Cocks crowed differently in Bible times.”
”Four were crucified with Jesus, not two.”
”I invented the hook shot.”
”It snowed.”
Is this a discussion of doctrine or of history?
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Raf
See, that's my problem. If it's history, it's not credible and the only reason to discuss it is politics.
If we're talking about doctrine, there's really nothing debatable about it. Yeah, God said this land is your land. Doctrinally. But history can't even document the existence of Abraham, never mind God. And if we're going to allow divine real estate transactions to determine land rights, there are probably a handful of Native American believers in the Great Spirit who have a problem or two with our current state borders.
Oh, but THEIR Great Spirit is not God. Got it.
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Nathan_Jr
Yep.
Edited by Nathan_JrMmmph
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Ham
It seems that others have asked the same question.
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chockfull
Yeah you start to mix up politics and religion and real estate then you have a real mess.
Or a new tv series idea lol
With Israel more recent history implies a few warring tribes with conflict dating back a thousand years. It’s just one of them has nukes and Western support.
Native Americans rather than having the Great Spirit define their living boundaries have instead had a cruel government dictate them, and ensure generational poverty by giving them an acre of land and a crappy model home. Alaskan natives fared better with their deals with the government happening much later. They own a piece of the oil pipeline and are rich. So many native corporations now are winning government contract bids in many different areas.
I can’t do a thing about the Israel conflict all I can do is keep a good relationship with my own neighbors and pray and hope for the best.
Thanks for posting up the prevalent views in the topic guys.
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chockfull
OMG I’m dying lol. Help help I’m being repressed. Oh I so need to watch Monty Python Holy Grail again.
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oldiesman
What's your take on Ward's offering? Specifically, the completed works of Christ biblically ended the old covenant and the "land grant"?
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Raf
Not sure why my opinion is of any particular interest, but I would suggest a plain reading of Revelation reveals Yahweh still has a great interest in Israel as a nation and people. I doubt anyone could say definitively that the covenant was ended, especially since it was an everlasting covenant. I could easily be wrong, my G.A.S. having lapsed some time ago.
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oldiesman
Thx Raf for your opinion. I'm leaning to the preterist view, i.e., Christ's completed work eventually established the 'body of Christ', the true modern-day Israel, inhabited by both Jew and Gentile believers in Christ-- that negates the old covenant of Israel under Judaism. The preterist belief also is shared by some very strict Catholics who have been described as 'partial-preterists' by the preterists themselves. Some trad Catholics still believe that Jews and Gentiles who haven't accepted Christ as Lord and Savior are destined to hell because of original sin. Am working on a short video of someone sharing that viewpoint that can be posted here in a few days.
BTW here is Ward's "letter to his Dad" concerning Darby, if anyone is interested:
A LETTER TO MY DAD CONCERNING JOHN NELSON DARBY ON ROMANS 11-Preterism, Darby, and eschatology and Preterist soteriology concerning the second coming of Christ in the clouds; Preterism and Preterist eschatology, Darby, the rapture and prophecy from a preterist perspective
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