It it so difficult for folks who believe in God to accept that there is no spiritual punishment for any wrong actions.
And for the non-believer, it's difficult to believe there is no karma. But here's the thing. If you make a habit out of blowing through red lights on a regular basis, there's a pretty good chance you're going to get T-boned someday. It's not karma, it's just the laws of statistics catching up with you. It's not a punishment from God. It's not a tit for a tat or an eye for an elbow. It's just a way to cope with the sometimes harsh realities of this world.
It it so difficult for folks who believe in God to accept that there is no spiritual punishment for any wrong actions.
They just can’t wait to send someone to hell or purgatory, for say, killing someone, adultery, rape, and any other wrong against a human. Believers who have been wronged by someone say, “You might get away with hurting me in this life, but justice will be served in the next, and you will suffer.”
If one believes there is no god, we understand a human being is just like any other life, and when we die our body rots and we are forgotten about after our 3rd generation.
No god is keeping track if we wronged our neighbor or family dog, which will result in spiritual consequences.
Nor if we spoke in tongues, helped a little old lady across the street, or sacrificed our life to save someone elses life, there are no spiritual rewards waiting for us to be claimed.
Our last breath is our last breath, and our existence ends never to be heard from again.
Very comforting, for sure.
I don't get that it's comforting but I think you are brave. I can't imagine an eternity of nothingness, or even worse an eternity of torture. Both scare the hell out of me.
I don't get that it's comforting but I think you are brave. I can't imagine an eternity of nothingness, or even worse an eternity of torture. Both scare the hell out of me.
This is how I look at nothingness. Prior to being born I was absolutely nothing. And after I die I go back to that state of nothingness. I didn’t suffer prior to being born and will not suffer after my last breath.
There is nothing brave about accepting reality. If I truly believed in an after life you can bet I would being doing all the arrive there. Actually I did chase that belief for most of my life. I went down so many rabbit holes trying to be godly it wore me out.
Please answer me this. How do you know for a certainty your biblical belief is the correct one getting you into heaven? If your are a RC you get to heaven by being water baptized, attending mass on Sunday and holy days of obligation, confessing your sins to a priest, doing good works, and make certain you do not die with a mortal sin on your soul, because if you do you are assured of going to hell.
A Baptist believes you are not saved by works, but by the grace of god.
How do you reconcile these contradictory beliefs?
Let’s assume you are a RC and die with no mortal sin on your soul. And when you stand before the judgement seat of god he says, “why haven’t you realized works will not get you into heaven?”
Or what happens if god actually believes being a Muslim is the only way to heaven. Or what if god believes you must be a Buddhist to enter the pearly gates? How about you must be a Hutterite or Menonite?
It defies logic that of the thousand of religions in the world, you somehow, have come upon the correct one! Let’s say one representative of each of the religions of the world stood side by side and formed a line for miles. And when god appears, he would tap you on the shoulder and say “you have got it right. Welcome to your group. All the rest have got it wrong.” Pretty crazy odds, no?
When I get to heaven, gonna have me a cocktail, vodka and ginger ale. Gonna smoke a cigarette that's 9 miles long. Gonna kiss that pretty girl, on the Tilt-A-Whirl, 'cuz this old man is goin' to town..
Hitler and Mother Theresa and VPW share the same fate as good people. (That was mean, I know, but the point is the same).
One of the criticisms of atheism that resonates is its lack of cosmic justice in the afterlife. People who get away with things in life never have to answer for them. People who did good are not rewarded.
Life just ENDS.
Most of us have no trouble conceptualizing this for any other animal. Ever step on a bug, accidentally or on purpose, and wonder what happened to its eternal soul? Of course not. It's a bug. Whatever it was that kept it alive is no longer operational. It has ceased to be. It's a stiff.
But somehow we think differently of humans and the animals humans love. Pets don't die anymore. Have you noticed that? They "cross the rainbow bridge" now.
And people? Well, forget about that. Your soul will not only survive your body's death, but it will be judged and you're getting paid!
Well, no.
I understand the Bible teaches body, soul and spirit. And I understand TWI worked its tail off distinguishing between soul and spirit to make them mean different things. But here's the thing: Soul is an imaginary concept. It's the name we give to our consciousness to allow us to perceive our bodies dispassionately, but in strictly real terms, there's no such thing as a soul. You have a brain. It works. When it stops working, it stops. All your senses will cease. Whatever "you" are, as a conscious personality, simply ceases to be. You will not be aware of the passage of time because there will BE no YOU to be aware of the passage of time.
It's almost impossible to fathom, but there is no evidence to the contrary except that which falls in the category of wishful thinking.
I know, it sucks. "You have no hope!" I was told, as if imaginary hope were ANY DIFFERENT from recognizing we get one life each, and there's no epilogue or sequel when it's over.
On the bright side, I won't have to listen to hymns on an endless loop for literally ever.
If we as humans have no eternal soul like the animals, assuming you agree with this, how about the following beliefs?
What about Euthanasia? If we with all love and kindness end our pets lives so they no longer suffer, what about letting mom or dad end their lives so they no longer suffer? How about if grandma has been living with a terminal disease that has wracked her body so badly that she no longer has a peaceful moment? Should she be required to suffer for an extended period of time even though she will not get better, only worse?
And concerning abortion should a family be required to to bring a human bring into the world that they do not want, for whatever reason?
The root of why Euthanasia and abortion not allowed is because of religious beliefs. And as Raf pointed out, now that we have granted our pets eternal life, should we not outlaw Euthanasia and abortion of them on religious grounds also?
So if there is no after life no has to be concerned about god punishing us for making dying a bit easier.
Maybe I should not have split the threads. But I honestly thought "what happens after we die" was a different enough question that it deserved its own thread.
So, we clearly agree that there is no post-life punishment for euthanasia (nor is there a post-life reward for sticking out the suffering).
Not long ago I learned an actor friend of mine took his life in a "no way am I going to suffer the way my disease prescribes" manner. The thought is terrifying to me, precisely because I don't believe ending this life ushers us into the next.
I think it was Ricky Gervais who said "People think atheists have nothing to live for. They have it backwards. Atheists have nothing to DIE for. We have everything to live for."
Because this is our one shot at life, so make it flipping count!
If you're looking at those issues from THIS side of the final curtain, the question of whether these acts are moral becomes a little murkier. But as far as post-death accounting: there is none. We agree on that.
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waysider
And for the non-believer, it's difficult to believe there is no karma. But here's the thing. If you make a habit out of blowing through red lights on a regular basis, there's a pretty good chance you're going to get T-boned someday. It's not karma, it's just the laws of statistics catching up with you. It's not a punishment from God. It's not a tit for a tat or an eye for an elbow. It's just a way to cope with the sometimes harsh realities of this world.
Edited by waysiderspelling
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Stayed Too Long
I have no problem believing there is no karma.
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oldiesman
I don't get that it's comforting but I think you are brave. I can't imagine an eternity of nothingness, or even worse an eternity of torture. Both scare the hell out of me.
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Stayed Too Long
This is how I look at nothingness. Prior to being born I was absolutely nothing. And after I die I go back to that state of nothingness. I didn’t suffer prior to being born and will not suffer after my last breath.
There is nothing brave about accepting reality. If I truly believed in an after life you can bet I would being doing all the arrive there. Actually I did chase that belief for most of my life. I went down so many rabbit holes trying to be godly it wore me out.
Please answer me this. How do you know for a certainty your biblical belief is the correct one getting you into heaven? If your are a RC you get to heaven by being water baptized, attending mass on Sunday and holy days of obligation, confessing your sins to a priest, doing good works, and make certain you do not die with a mortal sin on your soul, because if you do you are assured of going to hell.
A Baptist believes you are not saved by works, but by the grace of god.
How do you reconcile these contradictory beliefs?
Let’s assume you are a RC and die with no mortal sin on your soul. And when you stand before the judgement seat of god he says, “why haven’t you realized works will not get you into heaven?”
Or what happens if god actually believes being a Muslim is the only way to heaven. Or what if god believes you must be a Buddhist to enter the pearly gates? How about you must be a Hutterite or Menonite?
It defies logic that of the thousand of religions in the world, you somehow, have come upon the correct one!
Let’s say one representative of each of the religions of the world stood side by side and formed a line for miles. And when god appears, he would tap you on the shoulder and say “you have got it right. Welcome to your group. All the rest have got it wrong.” Pretty crazy odds, no?
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waysider
When I get to heaven, gonna have me a cocktail, vodka and ginger ale. Gonna smoke a cigarette that's 9 miles long. Gonna kiss that pretty girl, on the Tilt-A-Whirl, 'cuz this old man is goin' to town..
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Raf
It doesn't.
I mean, really, that's the thread.
Hitler and Mother Theresa and VPW share the same fate as good people. (That was mean, I know, but the point is the same).
One of the criticisms of atheism that resonates is its lack of cosmic justice in the afterlife. People who get away with things in life never have to answer for them. People who did good are not rewarded.
Life just ENDS.
Most of us have no trouble conceptualizing this for any other animal. Ever step on a bug, accidentally or on purpose, and wonder what happened to its eternal soul? Of course not. It's a bug. Whatever it was that kept it alive is no longer operational. It has ceased to be. It's a stiff.
But somehow we think differently of humans and the animals humans love. Pets don't die anymore. Have you noticed that? They "cross the rainbow bridge" now.
And people? Well, forget about that. Your soul will not only survive your body's death, but it will be judged and you're getting paid!
Well, no.
I understand the Bible teaches body, soul and spirit. And I understand TWI worked its tail off distinguishing between soul and spirit to make them mean different things. But here's the thing: Soul is an imaginary concept. It's the name we give to our consciousness to allow us to perceive our bodies dispassionately, but in strictly real terms, there's no such thing as a soul. You have a brain. It works. When it stops working, it stops. All your senses will cease. Whatever "you" are, as a conscious personality, simply ceases to be. You will not be aware of the passage of time because there will BE no YOU to be aware of the passage of time.
It's almost impossible to fathom, but there is no evidence to the contrary except that which falls in the category of wishful thinking.
I know, it sucks. "You have no hope!" I was told, as if imaginary hope were ANY DIFFERENT from recognizing we get one life each, and there's no epilogue or sequel when it's over.
On the bright side, I won't have to listen to hymns on an endless loop for literally ever.
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Stayed Too Long
If we as humans have no eternal soul like the animals, assuming you agree with this, how about the following beliefs?
What about Euthanasia? If we with all love and kindness end our pets lives so they no longer suffer, what about letting mom or dad end their lives so they no longer suffer? How about if grandma has been living with a terminal disease that has wracked her body so badly that she no longer has a peaceful moment? Should she be required to suffer for an extended period of time even though she will not get better, only worse?
And concerning abortion should a family be required to to bring a human bring into the world that they do not want, for whatever reason?
The root of why Euthanasia and abortion not allowed is because of religious beliefs. And as Raf pointed out, now that we have granted our pets eternal life, should we not outlaw Euthanasia and abortion of them on religious grounds also?
So if there is no after life no has to be concerned about god punishing us for making dying a bit easier.
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Raf
Great, NOW he asks the morality questions.
I can't win.
If there's no eternal soul, there's no afterlife consequence to those actions for the person who commits them.
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Stayed Too Long
Sorry I don’t get the difference. My bad.
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Raf
What happens when you die v. Are these actions right or wrong.
Very different questions, and neither answer depends on the other.
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Stayed Too Long
Thanks
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Raf
Maybe I should not have split the threads. But I honestly thought "what happens after we die" was a different enough question that it deserved its own thread.
So, we clearly agree that there is no post-life punishment for euthanasia (nor is there a post-life reward for sticking out the suffering).
Not long ago I learned an actor friend of mine took his life in a "no way am I going to suffer the way my disease prescribes" manner. The thought is terrifying to me, precisely because I don't believe ending this life ushers us into the next.
I think it was Ricky Gervais who said "People think atheists have nothing to live for. They have it backwards. Atheists have nothing to DIE for. We have everything to live for."
Because this is our one shot at life, so make it flipping count!
If you're looking at those issues from THIS side of the final curtain, the question of whether these acts are moral becomes a little murkier. But as far as post-death accounting: there is none. We agree on that.
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