quote:But Noting WHAT VP copied from them is as important than who he copied from. He didn't copy "normal" biblical teachings from them (for instance, Bullinger, Stiles and others believed that Jesus had a God-nature as well as a human nature).
I think this has always been key to Dr. John Juedes' unrelenting attack against TWI. We never believed the trinity, and because of that, we've always been illegitimate.
quote:Then VPW copied 70% of RTHST directly from other authors.
Lying and copying other peoples texts are wrong. But one point I'd like to make is that if Dr. John Juedes is going to quote statistics like 70%, he has to come up with proof of that. "Where's the beef"?
I did a comparison of my copy of J.E. Stiles book to my copy of RTHST, and didn't find anything near what he's claiming.
I'm open to hearing and reading facts; not wild statements that can't be proved.
I think the vast majority of VPW's writings aren't plagiarized. Prove me wrong.
I seem to remember that in RHST's case, the comparison was between an early edition (2nd Ed., if memory serves) and Stiles' book. Weren't later editions of RHST edited a bit?
Shortly after the time I read that VPW plagiarized material (I read this from Dr. John Juedes' website), I bought my own copy of J.E. Stiles book, and compared it with my own copy of RHST (3rd edition from 1972). As I recall, I couldn't find anything that was plagiarized, or if I did, it was only a few sentences. I guess that was because Dr. John Juedes was referring to the 2nd edition of RHST, a book that I didn't have, and nobody else seems to have.
I want to see plagiarism in my face, so there's no mistake. THEN I will call it plagiarism.
Where I will agree with Dr. John Juedes is the overall assumption that most of us, as new believers, thought VPW'S stuff was completely original. Sort of like starry-eyed PFAL students thinking VPW got everything by revelation. But as we stayed around long enough, we knew it wasn't like that.
Long Gone, have you made a personal comparison of Bullinger's "Giver and Gifts" with your copy of RHST, and came up with massive plagiarism? If so let me know, I will gladly buy a copy so I can see it for myself.
and Oldies, if you recall....can't remember if you were here then or not...(you're not the only oldy :)-->)....but Research Geek and many of us did a thread on all the books we knew that had been plagerized...it was well over 30 different authors....I will see if I save that one...
I could not tell you word for word right now...further it bores and nauseates me to peruse the works of the abusive vpw anymore.
But, in the same way he repackaged Dale Carnegie, he repackaged Bullinger, Kenyon, Stiles, Skinner and so many others and then called them his own....much like kids copy from encyclopedias ..change a few words and then call it their own....I am not a hair splitting research type of person...but we have many here who are and I believe there have been several threads regarding this fallacy of TWI and much or it's "original" research.
I hope Juedes doesn't mind me copying and pasting from his site (I could just as easliy waited until I got home and retyped it myself, using the later edition of RTHST)...
quote:Stiles, 1948:
8. Is it not possible for a Christian to receive false tongues or a false spirit when seeking to receive the Holy Spirit? Answer:
When people ask that question, we know that they have somewhere come in contact with one of these "faith blasters" who go about making statements which have no foundation in Scripture. When we suggest to earnest Christians that they may get something false, when seeking more of the fulness of God, we sinfully dishonor God and His Holy Spirit.'
Wierwille, 2nd, edition, 1955:
8. Is it possible for a Christian to receive false tongues or a false spirit when seeking the Holy Spirit?
The answer is no. When people ask that question, I know that they have somewhere come in contact with one of these faith blasters who go about making statements which have no foundation in Scripture. When someone suggests to earnest Christians that they may get something false, when seeking more of the fullness of God according to God's Word, he sinfully dishonors God and His Holy Spirit."
Does anyone ever recall Wierwille ever calling someone a "faith blaster," ever? It's inconsistent with his vocabulary. Wierwille would use the term "believing blaster," if anything. Faith can't be blasted in Wierwillian theology.
The word for word theft of that section is conclusive.
As I've written before, many a time, the issue is not WHETHER Wierwille plagiarized. He did. Period. The issue is, what importance do we place on his plagiarism?
In terms of our appreciation of Wierwille as a researcher, it is greatly diminished.
But in terms of our appreciation for THAT WHICH WAS TAUGHT, it should not matter a single bit. The doctrine rises or falls on its own merits.
I think arguing about WHETHER Wierwille plagiarized is a waste of time. If you don't believe he did, it's because you're not looking at the evidence. If you want to argue about the EXTENT of his plagiarism, that's another story. But for me, it only distracts from the true issue at hand:
What do you think of what was taught? Not the source of it, but the actual doctrine? If it's right, it's right whether it was plagiarized or not. If it's wrong, it's wrong whether it was plagiarized or not.
If you want to judge Wierwille, fine, go right ahead. He plagiarized. But that's about the man. If you're worshipping the man, it's necessary to confront this fact.
But if you're not worshipping the man, then the doctrine is the issue. My nickel. Keep the change.
I think this has always been key to Dr. John Juedes' unrelenting attack against TWI. We never believed the trinity, and because of that, we've always been illegitimate.
>>
How does this relate to the issue of plagiarism ? If ones doesn't like (JJ's) approach then fine but that is no reason to suspend investigation into VPW's literary practices. The question of VPW's liberal
My only criticism of JJ (and God, forgive me for saying it here and not to him directly) is that he lists some things as plagiarism that, by themselves, are not.
For example, Bullinger writes that the natural man cannot receive the things of God, that they are foolishness to him, because they need to be spiritually discerned. Wierwille writes a remarkably similar sentence. JJ cries plagiarism. Well, DUH, they're both quoting scripture!
I think Oldiesman correctly notes that JJ is willing to see infractions where none exists because of his feelings of Wierwille's "heresy."
I would encourage Oldiesman and others to do the same thing with JJ (and with myself) that I would have you do to the writings of VPW:
Prove all things, hold fast to that which is good.
If you'd like the Mother Lode, oldies, get a copy of Leonard's The Gifts of the Spirit
Now, lots of years separate the two works these days & due to editions & revisions they've drifted significantly apart. Still, the format (What it is Not, What It IS, etc) and the definitions will set you back on your heels. It will prove tou you, once and for all, that Wierwille's work is merely derivative at best. And certainly not better! Leonard's writing, meantal grasp, power of expression and complete scope of the subject makes Wierwilles' work look like the hackneyed piece of excrement it really is.
I recently received a pamphlet from John Juedes called "Will The Real Author Please Stand Up".
In it, he compares VP's 1972 and 1957 RTHST books with Stiles 1948 book. There are 3 columns side by side. The 1957 version is 90% word-for-word plagiarized. The 1972 version has been edited a bit - the words are the same but they are placed in a different order. Sort of like: "He also stole Kenyon's work" vs. "Kenyon's work was stolen as well" - but the gist is the same.
He also compares, side by side, chapter 3 in "The New Dynamic Church" (aka "the green book") - "How to Be A Christian" (pages 35-41) with a chapter in Kenyon's book called "The Father and His Family" (page 229).
Here's just one example:
VPW: "Did you ever realize that salvation is a gift, that it is not necessary that you go any place to get it."
Kenyon: "Did you ever stop to think that salvation is a gift, that it is unnecessary for you to go anywhere to get it?"
He also compares VP's work to Bullinger's "How to Enjoy The Bible", "Selected Writings" and "Figures of Speech Used in the Bible" and many others.
No where did VP use quotes or footnote any of his "borrowed" writings.
John also sent me photocopies of Stiles pages and VP's pages so I could see them for myself.
You may not like John Juede's delivery - but the facts speak louder than his opinions. Like it or not, VP took what wasn't his and claimed it as his own.
Hope R. color>size>face>
"And I'm on my way, I don't know where I'm going.I'm on my way, takin' my time but I don't know where." P. Simonsize>
quote:8. Is it possible for a Christian to receive false
tongues or a false spirit when believing for the
holy spirit?
The answer is a loud and clear no. As a matter of fact, speaking in tongues is the only manifestation which basically Satan cannot counterfeit. When I am asked that question, I know that person has come into contact with those whom I term ?faith blasters,? who go about making statements which have no foundation in Scripture. When someone suggests to earnest Christians that they are in danger of receiving some-thing false when believing to manifest the fullness of God according to God?s Word, he sinfully dishonors God.
Receiving The Holy Spirit Today, Victor Paul Wierwille
I used to eat with Rhoda W. all the time while at HQ. Since I never went on ex-way sites before leaving HQ, I never thought to ask her questions. I wonder if VP had her type from the books of those other men, or if he actually copied it down himself. That would be an interesting question to pose to her; maybe I'll get the guts to call her up. She is very alert for her age and has the memory of an elephant. (Elephant? Where did that come from? Anybody know?) Anyway, she use to tell me all kinds of things. She was the official Way slave from the early days. Bless her heart.
I will vouch for the quote that Rafael gives on the "faith blasters" section of RTHST. I also had obtained a copy of Stiles' book, compared it to my 1972 version of the Holy Spirit book, and saw the plagiarism in black and white. I cannot confirm Juedes' claim of 70% plagiarism, but plagiarism there was, for sure! And yes, I too would say that particular plagiarism stuck out to me because VPW never used that vocabulary.
Mike would have us excuse VPW quoting Stiles in that passage without credit. He thinks they are both quoting GOD who gave the revelation to both of them to write that. (If I am misrepresenting Mike's view, he can feel free to clarify.) I would counter that revelation does not work like that, according to what VPW taught in PFAL. According to Mr. Wierwille, "God moved...then men spoke, using their own vocabularies...." If so, then two different men, inspired by God, would definitely NOT use the same word-for-word paragraph in their inspired writings. Especially so when that paragraph sounds nothing like the vocabulary of the speaker.
I was amazed when I recently learned that Stiles wrote a book at all. He is presented in The Way, Living in Love as being a guy who happened to be at that conference in Tulsa who led Wierwille into speaking in tongues. Surprised I was to learn that parts of RHST is copied from his book.
BG Leonard is another one. He is presented in TWI mythology as a guy who ran a class that was long on practical experience and short on the Word. We find out that parts of his books are copied directly into Wierwille's.
So Wierwille kind of, sort of acknowledges these men, but not really.
Then there's Bullinger. Wierwille refers to Bullinger all the time, he sold his books and commentaries in his bookstore, yet Wierwille claimed that he came to the conclusions that Bullinger did independently.
What is funny sometimes about Wierwille's use of Bullinger is that he doesn't always understand Bullinger's point. He'll mouth something that Bullinger said to support a point, yet Bullinger was of an opposing opinion.
Something that always puzzled me, but doesn't now, is the widely varying styles in Wierwille's different books. Some are relatively scholarly in tone, some sound like a C - minus seventh grader. Some contain copious notes and references, others just spout things that seem to come out of thin air. Some are logically put together, others are gobbledy-gook of the worst sort.
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
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WordWolf
Thanks.
People keep arriving here every few months, so
it becomes necessary to bring them up to speed.
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oldiesman
I think this has always been key to Dr. John Juedes' unrelenting attack against TWI. We never believed the trinity, and because of that, we've always been illegitimate.
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oldiesman
Lying and copying other peoples texts are wrong. But one point I'd like to make is that if Dr. John Juedes is going to quote statistics like 70%, he has to come up with proof of that. "Where's the beef"?
I did a comparison of my copy of J.E. Stiles book to my copy of RTHST, and didn't find anything near what he's claiming.
I'm open to hearing and reading facts; not wild statements that can't be proved.
I think the vast majority of VPW's writings aren't plagiarized. Prove me wrong.
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LG
Oldiesman,
Juedes doesn't say that Wierwille copied 70% of RTHST from Stiles; he says "from other authors [plural]."
Your ignorance of those other authors, including Bullinger and Leonard, doesn't make Juedes' statement "wild."
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Zixar
I seem to remember that in RHST's case, the comparison was between an early edition (2nd Ed., if memory serves) and Stiles' book. Weren't later editions of RHST edited a bit?
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oldiesman
Long Gone,
Shortly after the time I read that VPW plagiarized material (I read this from Dr. John Juedes' website), I bought my own copy of J.E. Stiles book, and compared it with my own copy of RHST (3rd edition from 1972). As I recall, I couldn't find anything that was plagiarized, or if I did, it was only a few sentences. I guess that was because Dr. John Juedes was referring to the 2nd edition of RHST, a book that I didn't have, and nobody else seems to have.
I want to see plagiarism in my face, so there's no mistake. THEN I will call it plagiarism.
Where I will agree with Dr. John Juedes is the overall assumption that most of us, as new believers, thought VPW'S stuff was completely original. Sort of like starry-eyed PFAL students thinking VPW got everything by revelation. But as we stayed around long enough, we knew it wasn't like that.
Long Gone, have you made a personal comparison of Bullinger's "Giver and Gifts" with your copy of RHST, and came up with massive plagiarism? If so let me know, I will gladly buy a copy so I can see it for myself.
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washingtonweather
Hope --- Great point
one word---------INTEGRITY--------
or lack of.
and Oldies, if you recall....can't remember if you were here then or not...(you're not the only oldy :)-->)....but Research Geek and many of us did a thread on all the books we knew that had been plagerized...it was well over 30 different authors....I will see if I save that one...
Anyone else remember us doing that?
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Zshot
More recommended reading.
Compare ?how to enjoy the Bible? by E.W. Bullinger to the pfal book and class.
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washingtonweather
heres a few still on my shelves:
E W Kenyon
---The Blood Covenent
---The Wonderful Name of Jesus
Albert E Cliffe
---Let Go and Let God; Steps in Victorious Living
Glenn Clark
---The Man who Talked with the Flowers
Ben Sweetland
---I Can! The key to Life's Golden Secrets
Not to mention the repackaged Dale Carnegie stuff.
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oldiesman
Washingtonweather,
Thanks for your input.
I have the Kenyon books, so what words/paragraphs in those are plagiarized and in which VPW books are the plagiarisms to be found?
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washingtonweather
I could not tell you word for word right now...further it bores and nauseates me to peruse the works of the abusive vpw anymore.
But, in the same way he repackaged Dale Carnegie, he repackaged Bullinger, Kenyon, Stiles, Skinner and so many others and then called them his own....much like kids copy from encyclopedias ..change a few words and then call it their own....I am not a hair splitting research type of person...but we have many here who are and I believe there have been several threads regarding this fallacy of TWI and much or it's "original" research.
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Raf
I hope Juedes doesn't mind me copying and pasting from his site (I could just as easliy waited until I got home and retyped it myself, using the later edition of RTHST)...
Does anyone ever recall Wierwille ever calling someone a "faith blaster," ever? It's inconsistent with his vocabulary. Wierwille would use the term "believing blaster," if anything. Faith can't be blasted in Wierwillian theology.
The word for word theft of that section is conclusive.
As I've written before, many a time, the issue is not WHETHER Wierwille plagiarized. He did. Period. The issue is, what importance do we place on his plagiarism?
In terms of our appreciation of Wierwille as a researcher, it is greatly diminished.
But in terms of our appreciation for THAT WHICH WAS TAUGHT, it should not matter a single bit. The doctrine rises or falls on its own merits.
I think arguing about WHETHER Wierwille plagiarized is a waste of time. If you don't believe he did, it's because you're not looking at the evidence. If you want to argue about the EXTENT of his plagiarism, that's another story. But for me, it only distracts from the true issue at hand:
What do you think of what was taught? Not the source of it, but the actual doctrine? If it's right, it's right whether it was plagiarized or not. If it's wrong, it's wrong whether it was plagiarized or not.
If you want to judge Wierwille, fine, go right ahead. He plagiarized. But that's about the man. If you're worshipping the man, it's necessary to confront this fact.
But if you're not worshipping the man, then the doctrine is the issue. My nickel. Keep the change.
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diazbro
Oldiesman said:
I think this has always been key to Dr. John Juedes' unrelenting attack against TWI. We never believed the trinity, and because of that, we've always been illegitimate.
>>
How does this relate to the issue of plagiarism ? If ones doesn't like (JJ's) approach then fine but that is no reason to suspend investigation into VPW's literary practices. The question of VPW's liberal
borrowing of the works of others exsited
long before that site or this one existed
so its not permissible to drop the issue
altogehter just because JJ's site takes it on.
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Raf
My only criticism of JJ (and God, forgive me for saying it here and not to him directly) is that he lists some things as plagiarism that, by themselves, are not.
For example, Bullinger writes that the natural man cannot receive the things of God, that they are foolishness to him, because they need to be spiritually discerned. Wierwille writes a remarkably similar sentence. JJ cries plagiarism. Well, DUH, they're both quoting scripture!
I think Oldiesman correctly notes that JJ is willing to see infractions where none exists because of his feelings of Wierwille's "heresy."
I would encourage Oldiesman and others to do the same thing with JJ (and with myself) that I would have you do to the writings of VPW:
Prove all things, hold fast to that which is good.
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TheEvan
If you'd like the Mother Lode, oldies, get a copy of Leonard's The Gifts of the Spirit
Now, lots of years separate the two works these days & due to editions & revisions they've drifted significantly apart. Still, the format (What it is Not, What It IS, etc) and the definitions will set you back on your heels. It will prove tou you, once and for all, that Wierwille's work is merely derivative at best. And certainly not better! Leonard's writing, meantal grasp, power of expression and complete scope of the subject makes Wierwilles' work look like the hackneyed piece of excrement it really is.
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Hope R.
I recently received a pamphlet from John Juedes called "Will The Real Author Please Stand Up".
In it, he compares VP's 1972 and 1957 RTHST books with Stiles 1948 book. There are 3 columns side by side. The 1957 version is 90% word-for-word plagiarized. The 1972 version has been edited a bit - the words are the same but they are placed in a different order. Sort of like: "He also stole Kenyon's work" vs. "Kenyon's work was stolen as well" - but the gist is the same.
He also compares, side by side, chapter 3 in "The New Dynamic Church" (aka "the green book") - "How to Be A Christian" (pages 35-41) with a chapter in Kenyon's book called "The Father and His Family" (page 229).
Here's just one example:
VPW: "Did you ever realize that salvation is a gift, that it is not necessary that you go any place to get it."
Kenyon: "Did you ever stop to think that salvation is a gift, that it is unnecessary for you to go anywhere to get it?"
He also compares VP's work to Bullinger's "How to Enjoy The Bible", "Selected Writings" and "Figures of Speech Used in the Bible" and many others.
No where did VP use quotes or footnote any of his "borrowed" writings.
John also sent me photocopies of Stiles pages and VP's pages so I could see them for myself.
You may not like John Juede's delivery - but the facts speak louder than his opinions. Like it or not, VP took what wasn't his and claimed it as his own.
Hope R. color>size>face>
"And I'm on my way, I don't know where I'm going.I'm on my way, takin' my time but I don't know where." P. Simonsize>
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Zixar
From the Sixth Edition:
Receiving The Holy Spirit Today, Victor Paul WierwilleLink to comment
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Orange Cat
Though VP denounced automatic writing in the Advanced Class he seems to have done a lot of it himself.
Orange Cat color>
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Nottawayfer
I used to eat with Rhoda W. all the time while at HQ. Since I never went on ex-way sites before leaving HQ, I never thought to ask her questions. I wonder if VP had her type from the books of those other men, or if he actually copied it down himself. That would be an interesting question to pose to her; maybe I'll get the guts to call her up. She is very alert for her age and has the memory of an elephant. (Elephant? Where did that come from? Anybody know?) Anyway, she use to tell me all kinds of things. She was the official Way slave from the early days. Bless her heart.
Laughter is a tranquilizer with no side effects.
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oldiesman
Wayfer Not,
That sounds like a good idea; I'd like to know what she says myself.
Evan,
I'm going to order B.G.'S book and let you know what I think...
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oldiesman
Rafael,
Thanks for your input, as usual you give excellent advice.
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shazdancer
Hi Oldiesman!
I will vouch for the quote that Rafael gives on the "faith blasters" section of RTHST. I also had obtained a copy of Stiles' book, compared it to my 1972 version of the Holy Spirit book, and saw the plagiarism in black and white. I cannot confirm Juedes' claim of 70% plagiarism, but plagiarism there was, for sure! And yes, I too would say that particular plagiarism stuck out to me because VPW never used that vocabulary.
Mike would have us excuse VPW quoting Stiles in that passage without credit. He thinks they are both quoting GOD who gave the revelation to both of them to write that. (If I am misrepresenting Mike's view, he can feel free to clarify.) I would counter that revelation does not work like that, according to what VPW taught in PFAL. According to Mr. Wierwille, "God moved...then men spoke, using their own vocabularies...." If so, then two different men, inspired by God, would definitely NOT use the same word-for-word paragraph in their inspired writings. Especially so when that paragraph sounds nothing like the vocabulary of the speaker.
Regards,
shaz
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Oakspear
I was amazed when I recently learned that Stiles wrote a book at all. He is presented in The Way, Living in Love as being a guy who happened to be at that conference in Tulsa who led Wierwille into speaking in tongues. Surprised I was to learn that parts of RHST is copied from his book.
BG Leonard is another one. He is presented in TWI mythology as a guy who ran a class that was long on practical experience and short on the Word. We find out that parts of his books are copied directly into Wierwille's.
So Wierwille kind of, sort of acknowledges these men, but not really.
Then there's Bullinger. Wierwille refers to Bullinger all the time, he sold his books and commentaries in his bookstore, yet Wierwille claimed that he came to the conclusions that Bullinger did independently.
What is funny sometimes about Wierwille's use of Bullinger is that he doesn't always understand Bullinger's point. He'll mouth something that Bullinger said to support a point, yet Bullinger was of an opposing opinion.
Something that always puzzled me, but doesn't now, is the widely varying styles in Wierwille's different books. Some are relatively scholarly in tone, some sound like a C - minus seventh grader. Some contain copious notes and references, others just spout things that seem to come out of thin air. Some are logically put together, others are gobbledy-gook of the worst sort.
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
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Oakspear
...of course, contrasted with gobbledy-gook of the best sort :D-->
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
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