Oldies I catagorically DENIE that I am blinded by hatrid....but I ask again...is there ANY diofference in being blinded by hatrid or blinded by love??? IT`S STILL FRIGGIN BLINDNESS!
You are the blind guy ...cussin the other blind guy...kindda silly ain`t it? Neither one of you can really see things as they truly are can you?
I guess I was trying to give you a pair of glasses to assist your vision....guess that the blindness is past the point of correction ...
WTH....would you really feel this way if it was your little sister ..your little brother??God forbid your sweet daughter??
My daughter is aproaching the age that vpw liked em....the wow I mentioned??? she was a 17 yr old...had never been with a man...n vpw wanted to *larn her right* is that really acceptable to you??? Were the consequences of her refusal acceptable?? it was over twenty YEARS before her family learned and accepted the truth about the man whose teachings they revered...
Do you know that I read where one top leader ADMITTED that drugs at times were used when the girls were not compliant??
Would you not be angry if it was your sweet child whom awoke in horror at what she participated in???
I don`t get how you guys can NOT be furious...Have you children?
I mentioned the Hitler comparison because it has been used before, here and on Waydale. But some folks do actually think the worst about VPW at all times, every day of the week; and compare him to Hitler and Dahmer. He's the worst of the worst, always will be, to them.
It's disingenuous to say we're comparing Hitler and Dahmer to VPW.
What we're doing, oldiesman, is critiquing the validity of your defense of VPW in this regard. The point is, you can't dismiss the evil for the good. It doesn't work that way.
I don't think VPW is the worst of the worst. In fact, if not for this board, I wouldn't think much of him at all. He is not a part of my life. But when I see people trying disingenuous defenses, like we're supposed to revere him or think the earth moved under his feet and the sky tumbling down whenever he walked, well, that's when I have to have a tad more sympathy for the women he used as receptacles than I have for his precious legacy.
Do you guys ever watch court tv? How when someone has been convicted of a heinous crime ......there are always family members at the sentancing phase crying and sobbing,....begging for their sons/brothers/boyfriends life....doesn`t matter that the guy kidnapped raped and murdered a 7 yr old little girl or the guys who did the same to 5 people in witchita...or the lady who drove home with the guy in her car windshield n left him there to die in the garage for 3 days....without exception....they always have friends and family members that will make excuses for them and proclaim their love extoll the virtues ....beg you to forgive them......He reeeeeeeeeaally isn`t such a bad guy...he was good to me...he was good to the children... She always USED to go to church with her family...puuuuuuuuuuhleaaaaaaaase don`t be so mean ...........They weren`t aaaaaaall bad...waaah sob sniff sniff ...sob
[This message was edited by rascal on February 11, 2004 at 14:57.]
quote:What we're doing, oldiesman, is critiquing the validity of your defense of VPW in this regard. The point is, you can't dismiss the evil for the good. It doesn't work that way.
Raf, What the Hay and I are not dismissing the evil and I think you know that. What we are saying is that we are not dismissing the good, BECAUSE OF the evil. Rascal and others would like us to, no doubt. Are you suggesting we are dismissing the evil because we also note and give meaning and credence to the godly experiences?
Also I find it disturbing you would be on the side of someone who proclaims our blessings in TWI were paid for by the misfortune of others. If that's not extremely one-sided I don't know what is. Surely you don't believe that nonsense do you?
Oldies...you have no IDEA what rascal really wants...But I will spell it out... once folks can see that vpw was NOT what he proclaimed himself to be.... the scales begin to fall away...one is then free to realise that not all doctrine in twi was God breathed or necessarily healthy.
Untill that point in time...one remains tightly enclosed within a small box ...afraid to see anything outside of the dark little prison formed by twi scriptures.
It has nothing to do about whether or not you got blessed personally....
I never denied it...again I say...ENJOY!!! the blessing that you recieved at the hands of the man who heinously used your brother and sister in christ ...Doesn`t matter what others endured as long as you and mike and wth recieved the *word*
See problem is...I don`t think the price was acceptable...nor do I think that God works that way....
The answer to your question is irrelevant to my point. It distracts, and I'd rather stay on point:
You DO dismiss the evil. You say you don't, but to even hear it causes you to spring to VPW's defense, every time. You have to accuse people of blindness if they don't agree with you. Where does that come from?
Yes, Jesus Christ paid the price for my blessings. You are correct. And VPW took advantage of those Christ-purchased blessings to figuratively fleece and literally f* the flock. The Bible tells us to watch out for people like that. It does not tell us to compare the number of times they resisted temptation to the number of times they succumbed. It tells us to avoid these people, not to debate their legacies.
What was it VPW said:
Small minds talk about people, great minds about God's Word? There's a piece of advice I'll take from him. But enough of him, already, far as I'm concerned.
quote:You DO dismiss the evil. You say you don't, but to even hear it causes you to spring to VPW's defense, every time. You have to accuse people of blindness if they don't agree with you. Where does that come from?
Raf, you're wrong, and misjudging me.
quote:Small minds talk about people, great minds about God's Word?
Ok then, might I suggest we talk about God's Word and stop talking about VPW. I'm game.
Are you really game? Are you game enough that when someone says something about him, you're not going to jump in and say, "well, some of the women were willing." Are you really game?
I thought you meant let's stop talking about him altogether. I'm game for that. Let's all do it, all of us, not just you and me. That's what I was game for...
Raf, the times at GS I've come to the defense of VPW are so miniscule compared to the volume of negativity propounded. You don't mind hearing about all the junk but balk when someone has something nice to say about him? That's not fair. But at any rate, if your tired of hearing me speak about him, I will commit to being silent till the end of the month. How's that?
You don`t need to be silent at all oldies....I have no doubt that at ALL that you wish we wouldn`t discuss vpw`s character flaws...wish we would contain our conversation to biblical issues...THAT`D keep us shut up...ain`t gonna happen however
This whole mess started with wth declaring that WE who saw vp`s ugly side.. were all liars and exagerating whiners...that vpw was a Great man of faith....those are lies....to leave that unchallenged would be to agree....to keep silent about his true nature......
YOU oldies have once again turned it into a whiners thread about not being able to say *nice* things about vp.....
YOU have mischaracterised and drawn the whole thread off track ......
Defend vpw, wth or whomever you wish....but don`t expect that I will leave allegations that we who post are liars and whiners because we don`t *take it like a man* ....it will not be left unchallenged...
quote: But when I see people trying disingenuous defenses, like we're supposed to revere him or think the earth moved under his feet and the sky tumbling down whenever he walked, well, that's when I have to have a tad more sympathy for the women he used as receptacles than I have for his precious legacy.
Ironically Raf, it's the people who happen to hate VPW the most who have succumbed to believing we were supposed to revere him - just like Jesus Christ. That is the very reason they hate VPW - because he failed them miserably as their "saviour". To them, VPW was suppossed to be: "Jesus Christ - God Almighty Incarnate" and since he didn't live up to their expectations they have every cause to hate him now.
Now I am not going to make light of or dismiss any hurt he caused to others. Nor am I going to make light or dismiss the good he also did just because he failed to live up to some peoples expectations as their savior, or a MOG, or however people now want to label him. Just what do these people want? An apology from me for VPW? That pretty ludiculous, as there is no apology I could ever give that would even come close to being acceptable to them. It's certainly not my responsibilty or anybody elses responsiblity for that matter, to repent for the sins of VPW.
Are we blinded by our love for VPW, or by our hate of him Rascal? You might as well ask if the glass is half full or half empty - and then accuse the other person of being blind simply because they don't see the glass the exact same way you do.
One of the more intelligent things Raf said - "Enough of him already!" True enough Raf, but nobody gets enough of thinking evil. That's the (sin) nature of man for you, to think evil. The only way I know out of that is simply to come back to God's Word and make the Lord Jesus Christ your saviour. It's only when you do that, that one quits making VPW their savior. When Jesus Christ is one's saviour, they no longer have a cause to demonize VPW any more than they do to idolize him. Jesus Christ is the only one I know who can take those blinders off.
WTH--you know this by revelation???? You, as your manner is, are posturing ...you have no leg to stand on, talking about who worshipped the guy and who did not.
I first got involved in twi in 1970-71, never worshipped vic or any other leader and find his methods to be contemptible. He was a wolf who took advantage of sheep. I hate no man; haven't the time of day to do so. But at my ripe old age of 51 I am no longer afraid to call a spade a spade. What's your excuse???
You just don't seem to get it. Could it be your just projecting your own unresolved issues on everybody else? Seems you are incapable of simply listening to what someone says without interjecting your own brand of judgmental contempt.
Thank you, alfakat. I was just going to say the same thing, that I never worshipped the man, didn't post his pic on my desk or wall, thought Uncle Harry's book was silly, didn't take up any hobbies or habits that he had, never bought the VP's favorite poetry book, because I thought the poems he liked were trite. I just thought he taught great Bible, that is, until I stepped away from TWI and really looked at PFAL with my brain engaged.
But what did he say about himself? What did he expect us to believe? He wanted us to think of him as the MOG for our day and time. He hinted that he was an apostle, called himself The Teacher, and told me that he had more than one gif ministry. He said God had taught him personally. He accepted being treated like royalty wherever he went, and raged when he wasn't. If I didn't idolize him, it certainly wasn't because he was humble.
Did people get born again on account of what he taught? Yup, they did. Were others' hearts and lives destroyed on account of his systematized error? Yes, they were.
I can guess that Wierwille himself justified his evil acts by reminding himself of all the good he did, and felt entitled to indulge himself, so it is no wonder that Oldies and WhatTheHay are confused by the dichotomy.
I for one don't deny that he did good, but I have to wonder about the motivation behind it, for I can't imagine myself treating anybody the way he did.
And one more thing, what the hay, I find it pretty telling that you accuse everyone else of idolizing VPW, when you're the one who said he will be remembered by history as "a man of great faith."
quote:Goey - I never claimed the quote by Hoeffer to be my words, but it ended up among my words.
Yes you did - when you failed to give Hoffer credit when you copied him word for word.
quote:But perhaps your own resentment of VPW has caused you to forget these facts, just like it has for many others. Certainly we all have our faults, but hatred, malice, rudness, intolerance, etc., only makes you the weaker person, not the individual of whom you believe you were treated by unjustly.
What the hell do you know about me or any "resentment" I may or may not have? What facts? What you presented were not "facts". They were your personal interpretations and speculations. You sound just like Mike, calling speculation "facts" just like he calls his personal opinions "data". Futhermore, I have over 1300 posts on this board - when have I ever stated or even implied that Wierwille treated me unjustly? I haven't. Your armchair psycoanalysis fails miserably.
quote:Hoeffer got it right, so don't you get it backwards just because you may have your own personal issues and personal reasons for "demonizing" the big, bad, VP Werewolf. As Hoeffer aptly said, I can not win the weak by sharing the wealth with them. They will only feel it as oppression.
Whether Hoffer got it right or not is highly debatable. That's not the point though. I was saying that YOU got Hoffer backwards - at least partially. Wierwille was not the "strong" and his followers or those he abused the "weak". Maybe if you actually studied Hoffer instead of just quoting him because it seems to make your case, that you might understand this a little better.
Furthermore, I think it is pretty damned arrogant of you to presume to think that I and others here are "demonizing" Wierwille because we are the "weak" and therefore full of hatred, malice, and other such gobledegook nonsense. One does not have to be weak and full of hate to call a spade a spade.
I also find it very arrogant if not narcissistic that you put yourself in to the role of the "strong" (like Hoffer does) and project those of us who see Wierwille as the abuser and charletan that he was -- as the "weak". You are WAAAAAAAAY out there dude.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
[This message was edited by Goey on February 12, 2004 at 2:54.]
another one bites the dust...I will testify, I have been on these boards going back through previous GS and Waydale and would say that more of us had no "personal" reasons to despise vic but rather now stand somewhat aghast at his track-record of casual, off-handed, self-justified abuse of more than just a "few" or a "handful". WTH, you go on california dreamin' about vic's place in history...your tether on what happened seems colored and tenuous at best....
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rascal
Oldies I catagorically DENIE that I am blinded by hatrid....but I ask again...is there ANY diofference in being blinded by hatrid or blinded by love??? IT`S STILL FRIGGIN BLINDNESS!
You are the blind guy ...cussin the other blind guy...kindda silly ain`t it? Neither one of you can really see things as they truly are can you?
I guess I was trying to give you a pair of glasses to assist your vision....guess that the blindness is past the point of correction ...
I will leave you to your darkness... ENJOY!!
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rascal
WTH....would you really feel this way if it was your little sister ..your little brother??God forbid your sweet daughter??
My daughter is aproaching the age that vpw liked em....the wow I mentioned??? she was a 17 yr old...had never been with a man...n vpw wanted to *larn her right* is that really acceptable to you??? Were the consequences of her refusal acceptable?? it was over twenty YEARS before her family learned and accepted the truth about the man whose teachings they revered...
Do you know that I read where one top leader ADMITTED that drugs at times were used when the girls were not compliant??
Would you not be angry if it was your sweet child whom awoke in horror at what she participated in???
I don`t get how you guys can NOT be furious...Have you children?
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oldiesman
Colleen,
I mentioned the Hitler comparison because it has been used before, here and on Waydale. But some folks do actually think the worst about VPW at all times, every day of the week; and compare him to Hitler and Dahmer. He's the worst of the worst, always will be, to them.
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rascal
S`funny how people feel that way about people who have treated them and those they love badly.
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Raf
It's disingenuous to say we're comparing Hitler and Dahmer to VPW.
What we're doing, oldiesman, is critiquing the validity of your defense of VPW in this regard. The point is, you can't dismiss the evil for the good. It doesn't work that way.
I don't think VPW is the worst of the worst. In fact, if not for this board, I wouldn't think much of him at all. He is not a part of my life. But when I see people trying disingenuous defenses, like we're supposed to revere him or think the earth moved under his feet and the sky tumbling down whenever he walked, well, that's when I have to have a tad more sympathy for the women he used as receptacles than I have for his precious legacy.
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rascal
Do you guys ever watch court tv? How when someone has been convicted of a heinous crime ......there are always family members at the sentancing phase crying and sobbing,....begging for their sons/brothers/boyfriends life....doesn`t matter that the guy kidnapped raped and murdered a 7 yr old little girl or the guys who did the same to 5 people in witchita...or the lady who drove home with the guy in her car windshield n left him there to die in the garage for 3 days....without exception....they always have friends and family members that will make excuses for them and proclaim their love extoll the virtues ....beg you to forgive them......He reeeeeeeeeaally isn`t such a bad guy...he was good to me...he was good to the children... She always USED to go to church with her family...puuuuuuuuuuhleaaaaaaaase don`t be so mean ...........They weren`t aaaaaaall bad...waaah sob sniff sniff ...sob
[This message was edited by rascal on February 11, 2004 at 14:57.]
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oldiesman
Raf, What the Hay and I are not dismissing the evil and I think you know that. What we are saying is that we are not dismissing the good, BECAUSE OF the evil. Rascal and others would like us to, no doubt. Are you suggesting we are dismissing the evil because we also note and give meaning and credence to the godly experiences?
Also I find it disturbing you would be on the side of someone who proclaims our blessings in TWI were paid for by the misfortune of others. If that's not extremely one-sided I don't know what is. Surely you don't believe that nonsense do you?
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rascal
Oldies...you have no IDEA what rascal really wants...But I will spell it out... once folks can see that vpw was NOT what he proclaimed himself to be.... the scales begin to fall away...one is then free to realise that not all doctrine in twi was God breathed or necessarily healthy.
Untill that point in time...one remains tightly enclosed within a small box ...afraid to see anything outside of the dark little prison formed by twi scriptures.
It has nothing to do about whether or not you got blessed personally....
I never denied it...again I say...ENJOY!!! the blessing that you recieved at the hands of the man who heinously used your brother and sister in christ ...Doesn`t matter what others endured as long as you and mike and wth recieved the *word*
See problem is...I don`t think the price was acceptable...nor do I think that God works that way....
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Raf
Oldies,
The answer to your question is irrelevant to my point. It distracts, and I'd rather stay on point:
You DO dismiss the evil. You say you don't, but to even hear it causes you to spring to VPW's defense, every time. You have to accuse people of blindness if they don't agree with you. Where does that come from?
Yes, Jesus Christ paid the price for my blessings. You are correct. And VPW took advantage of those Christ-purchased blessings to figuratively fleece and literally f* the flock. The Bible tells us to watch out for people like that. It does not tell us to compare the number of times they resisted temptation to the number of times they succumbed. It tells us to avoid these people, not to debate their legacies.
What was it VPW said:
Small minds talk about people, great minds about God's Word? There's a piece of advice I'll take from him. But enough of him, already, far as I'm concerned.
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oldiesman
Raf, you're wrong, and misjudging me.
Ok then, might I suggest we talk about God's Word and stop talking about VPW. I'm game.
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Raf
Are you really game? Are you game enough that when someone says something about him, you're not going to jump in and say, "well, some of the women were willing." Are you really game?
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Raf
Don't get me wrong, oldies. You're free to talk about him all you want. I'm just getting tired of it myself.
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oldiesman
I thought you meant let's stop talking about him altogether. I'm game for that. Let's all do it, all of us, not just you and me. That's what I was game for...
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Raf
Ah, but Oldies, we can't control what anyone else does. That's the point. You can only control what YOU do.
So I ask again, are you really game?
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oldiesman
Raf, the times at GS I've come to the defense of VPW are so miniscule compared to the volume of negativity propounded. You don't mind hearing about all the junk but balk when someone has something nice to say about him? That's not fair. But at any rate, if your tired of hearing me speak about him, I will commit to being silent till the end of the month. How's that?
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Raf
You don't have to be silent at all.
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rascal
You don`t need to be silent at all oldies....I have no doubt that at ALL that you wish we wouldn`t discuss vpw`s character flaws...wish we would contain our conversation to biblical issues...THAT`D keep us shut up...ain`t gonna happen however
This whole mess started with wth declaring that WE who saw vp`s ugly side.. were all liars and exagerating whiners...that vpw was a Great man of faith....those are lies....to leave that unchallenged would be to agree....to keep silent about his true nature......
YOU oldies have once again turned it into a whiners thread about not being able to say *nice* things about vp.....
YOU have mischaracterised and drawn the whole thread off track ......
Defend vpw, wth or whomever you wish....but don`t expect that I will leave allegations that we who post are liars and whiners because we don`t *take it like a man* ....it will not be left unchallenged...
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What The Hay
Ironically Raf, it's the people who happen to hate VPW the most who have succumbed to believing we were supposed to revere him - just like Jesus Christ. That is the very reason they hate VPW - because he failed them miserably as their "saviour". To them, VPW was suppossed to be: "Jesus Christ - God Almighty Incarnate" and since he didn't live up to their expectations they have every cause to hate him now.
Now I am not going to make light of or dismiss any hurt he caused to others. Nor am I going to make light or dismiss the good he also did just because he failed to live up to some peoples expectations as their savior, or a MOG, or however people now want to label him. Just what do these people want? An apology from me for VPW? That pretty ludiculous, as there is no apology I could ever give that would even come close to being acceptable to them. It's certainly not my responsibilty or anybody elses responsiblity for that matter, to repent for the sins of VPW.
Are we blinded by our love for VPW, or by our hate of him Rascal? You might as well ask if the glass is half full or half empty - and then accuse the other person of being blind simply because they don't see the glass the exact same way you do.
One of the more intelligent things Raf said - "Enough of him already!" True enough Raf, but nobody gets enough of thinking evil. That's the (sin) nature of man for you, to think evil. The only way I know out of that is simply to come back to God's Word and make the Lord Jesus Christ your saviour. It's only when you do that, that one quits making VPW their savior. When Jesus Christ is one's saviour, they no longer have a cause to demonize VPW any more than they do to idolize him. Jesus Christ is the only one I know who can take those blinders off.
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alfakat
WTH--you know this by revelation???? You, as your manner is, are posturing ...you have no leg to stand on, talking about who worshipped the guy and who did not.
I first got involved in twi in 1970-71, never worshipped vic or any other leader and find his methods to be contemptible. He was a wolf who took advantage of sheep. I hate no man; haven't the time of day to do so. But at my ripe old age of 51 I am no longer afraid to call a spade a spade. What's your excuse???
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ex10
Good grief WTH
You just don't seem to get it. Could it be your just projecting your own unresolved issues on everybody else? Seems you are incapable of simply listening to what someone says without interjecting your own brand of judgmental contempt.
It must be lonely where you live.
:(-->
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shazdancer
Thank you, alfakat. I was just going to say the same thing, that I never worshipped the man, didn't post his pic on my desk or wall, thought Uncle Harry's book was silly, didn't take up any hobbies or habits that he had, never bought the VP's favorite poetry book, because I thought the poems he liked were trite. I just thought he taught great Bible, that is, until I stepped away from TWI and really looked at PFAL with my brain engaged.
But what did he say about himself? What did he expect us to believe? He wanted us to think of him as the MOG for our day and time. He hinted that he was an apostle, called himself The Teacher, and told me that he had more than one gif ministry. He said God had taught him personally. He accepted being treated like royalty wherever he went, and raged when he wasn't. If I didn't idolize him, it certainly wasn't because he was humble.
Did people get born again on account of what he taught? Yup, they did. Were others' hearts and lives destroyed on account of his systematized error? Yes, they were.
I can guess that Wierwille himself justified his evil acts by reminding himself of all the good he did, and felt entitled to indulge himself, so it is no wonder that Oldies and WhatTheHay are confused by the dichotomy.
I for one don't deny that he did good, but I have to wonder about the motivation behind it, for I can't imagine myself treating anybody the way he did.
Shaz
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ex10
And one more thing, what the hay, I find it pretty telling that you accuse everyone else of idolizing VPW, when you're the one who said he will be remembered by history as "a man of great faith."
Sheesh.
-->
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Goey
What The Hay
Yes you did - when you failed to give Hoffer credit when you copied him word for word.
What the hell do you know about me or any "resentment" I may or may not have? What facts? What you presented were not "facts". They were your personal interpretations and speculations. You sound just like Mike, calling speculation "facts" just like he calls his personal opinions "data". Futhermore, I have over 1300 posts on this board - when have I ever stated or even implied that Wierwille treated me unjustly? I haven't. Your armchair psycoanalysis fails miserably.
Whether Hoffer got it right or not is highly debatable. That's not the point though. I was saying that YOU got Hoffer backwards - at least partially. Wierwille was not the "strong" and his followers or those he abused the "weak". Maybe if you actually studied Hoffer instead of just quoting him because it seems to make your case, that you might understand this a little better.
Furthermore, I think it is pretty damned arrogant of you to presume to think that I and others here are "demonizing" Wierwille because we are the "weak" and therefore full of hatred, malice, and other such gobledegook nonsense. One does not have to be weak and full of hate to call a spade a spade.
I also find it very arrogant if not narcissistic that you put yourself in to the role of the "strong" (like Hoffer does) and project those of us who see Wierwille as the abuser and charletan that he was -- as the "weak". You are WAAAAAAAAY out there dude.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
[This message was edited by Goey on February 12, 2004 at 2:54.]
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alfakat
another one bites the dust...I will testify, I have been on these boards going back through previous GS and Waydale and would say that more of us had no "personal" reasons to despise vic but rather now stand somewhat aghast at his track-record of casual, off-handed, self-justified abuse of more than just a "few" or a "handful". WTH, you go on california dreamin' about vic's place in history...your tether on what happened seems colored and tenuous at best....
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