no worries, mate--what you believe is your business...I am not going to run it all down for you. Perhaps if you had been listening to the guy actively for 15-20 years like I have you would see what I see or know what I know...or not, as the case may be. Either way, he has certainly espoused many similarities beyond just the Kenyon-esque "Word-of-Faith" style stuff. As to his publicly copping or just a story--well, as you well know, Raf, in life it ain't all b&w; many shades of gray in between your 2 options, I'm sure, eh??????
quote: Hey Brady!! I lived in Miami Beach the last time I saw you, my husband (now ex) and 2 kids and I had a way home there in a big white house where we ran lots of "stuff". My kids are all grown up now and I live in Tallahassee. Do you remember????
Cat aka ladycat
~~Cat
Hi LadyCat! The moment you mentioned the big white house in Miami Beach, I immediately remembered you, Hector, and the kids. Jikes! This was about 20 years ago during my puberty stage (yeah right!). Okay, delayed puberty as some might call it. Time sure flies. Anyhow, thank you for saying hello. I’m still in Miami and I love it here! :)-->
Well Goey, it has always been my understanding this forum is a place to openly and freely share ideas for discussion and debate, be they mine, yours, or anybody elses - whether they happen to be popular or not. But apparently that is not what you want this forum to be - a place to freely and openly discuss and debate ideas.
Where have I suggested or even implied that open discussion should be discouraged? When have I discouraged it? - Not once. This is a strawman. A baseles accusation.
quote:Do you think I am going to take you seriously, especailly when you come off like a "brown-noser" - maybe you're just part of the GS commumunity establishment interested only in maintaining the status-quo? What do you think you are protecting people from? Are you trying to protect them from aquiring knowledge that might damage your credibility? It pretty much sounds like it to me.
Just exactly who am I "brown-nosing"?
The only status "status-quo" here is the one you invented in your mind -- Or the one you are attempting to foist upon us. There are many different takes on TWI/VPW/PFAL here. And honestly WTH, I am not too concerned about my "credibility".
quote:First off, nobody is paying me to post here, so don't go over the edge and accuse me of plagerizing Hoffer.
Did I ever say plagiarism? No. - I said you presented his words as if they were yours. This is not plaigerism, it is as someone else already noted -- intellectual dishonesty.
quote:The mere fact you even bothered to check out what I said only proves I have something valid to contribute to the discussion.
I'd like to see the logic you used to come up with this nonsense. The valdity of your contribution rests upon it's content, not upon whether I checked it our or not. My checking it out "proves" nothing at all. I checked it out because it seemed canned and like some canned psycobabble that I once read a long time ago.
quote:Just how many people bother to look into and check out what you say? Probably not many, which is proabably why your "green-eye jealousy" is showing.
ROTFLMAO!!! -- Another disingenuous diversion. -- What does it matter how many people look up what I say? And how would you or I know anyway? Very presumptious, I'd say. Brilliant logic too. Is everyone who challneges or disagrees with you "jealous". How childish..
quote:Heck, I'm not going to complain if you or anybody else wants to check out my sources. In fact that is what VPW encouraged me and a whole lot of other people to do with his research. That is one of the reasons I don't buy into a lot of the plagarism BS leveled at him either.
Not surprising at at all considering your defensive postion of VPW and your own intellectual dishonesty.
quote: VPW highly encouraged someone to check into what he said and for _YOU_ to aquire the knowledge for yourself - which _ALWAYS HAS BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE_ a fact the "plagerizer accussers" fail to mention.
This is irrelevant. You should look up the definition of plagiarism rather than try to redefine it for VPW and his "legacy."
Goey
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
[This message was edited by Goey on February 13, 2004 at 21:43.]
quote: ... calling the posters here exagerating whiners and declaring anyone who posted of his crimes as liars is is NOT sharing ideas for discussion and debate....
I don't specifically recall calling anybody here a whiner or a liar - unless somebody's reading something more and something else into what I stated. All I said was the VPW antagonists have embellished their sentiments and their experiences of VPW. Now are you interpreting that as me calling someone a whiner or a liar? You've got to have a pretty vivid imagination to make that stretch - a wild stretch of the imagination I'd say.
Why are you (and a lot of other people here for that matter) making such a big frikken deal over that remark anyway? As far as I am concerned, the VPW apologists have done likewise. They too have embellished their sentiments and experiences of VPW. So by your "daffynition" or interpretation, I have to be calling the VPW apologists whiners and liars (or idiots) too!
If the VPW antagonists are nothing but whiners, liars, idiots, etc. and the VPW apologists are also whiners, liars, idiots, etc., therefore the most sensible thing you could do is find the "middle ground" if you ask me - not to go about finding someone, or accusing somebody of calling you a whiner, liar, idiot or whatever.
I'll even try to give you the benefit of the doubt - but I'm not sure why I should. If I am calling the antagonists a bunch of bozo's, then the apologists are equally a bunch of bozo's. Yep, that pretty much sums up what a TWI "inny" told me years ago - "We're all bozo's on this bus!" I think she pretty well nailed it back then - way back in 1990.
Frankly I find the conclusion the antagonists have of VPW being nothing but an unholy, unrepent sinner is just as ludicrous as the conclusion the apologists have of him, that is, VPW is so blessed holy - he's so blessed holy that, "Jesus himself is going to show up at the return with a PFAL book"!
The God of the bible I know never gave me revelation of either one. It must be because they're conclusions drawn by "bozos" who want to sit back and play as if they had the wisdom of God Almighty. Who do you think your going to fool with your antagoistic or your apologetic conclusions of VPW anyway? It's probably just yourself.
Awww Geeze wth...at least have the guts to stand by what you said....now you are dancing around and backpeddaling......sheeshe...You said early on in your post that you didn`t believe the accounts of vp`s abuse....ie...those (some of whom post here) who related their experiences are liars....
You also make many claims about the folks angry over the accounts of being impotent...bitter....overexagerating....doesn`t sound like you are in the middle at to me.
What do you think of the child abuse thread WTH? Think folks are guilty of being unfairly antagonistic over there as well? Guess I would too if my kid had been molested by a leader whom was a known pedophile....a leader whom had been placed in the area with vpw`s FULL awareness.
Damn right I have no use for your *great man of faith* or his destructive ministry.
Okay, the more balanced approach to interpreting the life of VPW:
Positive: Biggest contribution -- put together a number of teachings on the Bible, thereby getting thousands of people on the road to being Christians, which we HOPE makes for eternal life
Negative: Biggest contribution -- personally abused many (dozens? hundreds?) sexually, emotionally, financially, and spiritually, including setting up and covering for leaders who did additional damage (certainly in the hundreds) which we KNOW destroyed their lives in THIS life.
quote:... Either way, he has certainly espoused many similarities beyond just the Kenyon-esque "Word-of-Faith" style stuff. ...
One other comment about Fred Price...I was watching his program a few months ago and I couldn't believe something he taught...something in the bible that suggested to the effect that one can "lose their salvation if they don't curtail their sinful habit patterns." I don't know whether he took PFAL or not, but Price's teaching that day certainly was evidence to me that he was far far from the PFAL teaching on salvation, which perhaps was one of the most important and meaningful in PFAL.
No, it was apparent from listening to FP's teachings that he didn't believe regarding salvation the way that we were taught but that doesn't stop some people from borrowing the parts that they like.
But, SOME of his stuff, as Alfakat said, sounded like it came right out of PFAL and then the night he started teaching out of JCOP I was finally CONVINCED it wasn't a coincidence (I haven't listened to him in years so don't know what he preaches now).
But, he's someone who, how do I say this, didn't seem inclined to give credit to others, either....at least he didn't any of the times I listened to him.
Alf, sorry, but I'd never heard of Dr. Martin until you mentioned him so sure that could be a possibility, too.
WB
Asked why he began studying Greek at age 94, Oliver Wendell Holmes replied,"Well, my good sir, it's now or never!"
oldies--he has branched out in the past 5-7 years in areas that he did not teach stuff in 15-20 years ago. I would safely say he does not teach nearly as "PFAL"-like as he once did...you needed to hear him from 82-92,3,4 to really know what I am talking about.
wb--you are certainly correct, I have very rarely heard him cite any source in any teaching that has appeared on TV....I would check Zix's link, it is the main source for the astronomy material in JCOPS.
Well, the kids are all grown. Chris is engaged and has a 5 yr old step son. He lives down in Cutler Ridge. Mandy is a high school teacher in Orlando. Hector is living in Broward somehwere with his 3rd wife and I am having a lovely time in the capital.
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alfakat
no worries, mate--what you believe is your business...I am not going to run it all down for you. Perhaps if you had been listening to the guy actively for 15-20 years like I have you would see what I see or know what I know...or not, as the case may be. Either way, he has certainly espoused many similarities beyond just the Kenyon-esque "Word-of-Faith" style stuff. As to his publicly copping or just a story--well, as you well know, Raf, in life it ain't all b&w; many shades of gray in between your 2 options, I'm sure, eh??????
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Tom Strange
Dammit! just show me the baby!
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
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alfakat
my new alfa-kitty????????????/
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metastic&ocular
i have never called that anti christ weirwille
"doctor"
a thing of beauty
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_DEATH.htm
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alfakat
m&o--where do you see him called that on this thread??? or did you see my reference to Dr. Martin on the previous page?????
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Hope R.
I was going to put this on the TWI commercial site, but it seems more appropriate here...
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Shellon
ROFL and ewwwwwwwww
Thanks Hope; finally some way I can contribute to this thread!
:)-->
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Brady
Hi LadyCat! The moment you mentioned the big white house in Miami Beach, I immediately remembered you, Hector, and the kids. Jikes! This was about 20 years ago during my puberty stage (yeah right!). Okay, delayed puberty as some might call it. Time sure flies. Anyhow, thank you for saying hello. I’m still in Miami and I love it here!
:)-->
Cheers!
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Goey
Where have I suggested or even implied that open discussion should be discouraged? When have I discouraged it? - Not once. This is a strawman. A baseles accusation.
Just exactly who am I "brown-nosing"?The only status "status-quo" here is the one you invented in your mind -- Or the one you are attempting to foist upon us. There are many different takes on TWI/VPW/PFAL here. And honestly WTH, I am not too concerned about my "credibility".
Did I ever say plagiarism? No. - I said you presented his words as if they were yours. This is not plaigerism, it is as someone else already noted -- intellectual dishonesty.
I'd like to see the logic you used to come up with this nonsense. The valdity of your contribution rests upon it's content, not upon whether I checked it our or not. My checking it out "proves" nothing at all. I checked it out because it seemed canned and like some canned psycobabble that I once read a long time ago.ROTFLMAO!!! -- Another disingenuous diversion. -- What does it matter how many people look up what I say? And how would you or I know anyway? Very presumptious, I'd say. Brilliant logic too. Is everyone who challneges or disagrees with you "jealous". How childish..
Not surprising at at all considering your defensive postion of VPW and your own intellectual dishonesty.This is irrelevant. You should look up the definition of plagiarism rather than try to redefine it for VPW and his "legacy."
Goey
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
[This message was edited by Goey on February 13, 2004 at 21:43.]
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What The Hay
I don't specifically recall calling anybody here a whiner or a liar - unless somebody's reading something more and something else into what I stated. All I said was the VPW antagonists have embellished their sentiments and their experiences of VPW. Now are you interpreting that as me calling someone a whiner or a liar? You've got to have a pretty vivid imagination to make that stretch - a wild stretch of the imagination I'd say.
Why are you (and a lot of other people here for that matter) making such a big frikken deal over that remark anyway? As far as I am concerned, the VPW apologists have done likewise. They too have embellished their sentiments and experiences of VPW. So by your "daffynition" or interpretation, I have to be calling the VPW apologists whiners and liars (or idiots) too!
If the VPW antagonists are nothing but whiners, liars, idiots, etc. and the VPW apologists are also whiners, liars, idiots, etc., therefore the most sensible thing you could do is find the "middle ground" if you ask me - not to go about finding someone, or accusing somebody of calling you a whiner, liar, idiot or whatever.
I'll even try to give you the benefit of the doubt - but I'm not sure why I should. If I am calling the antagonists a bunch of bozo's, then the apologists are equally a bunch of bozo's. Yep, that pretty much sums up what a TWI "inny" told me years ago - "We're all bozo's on this bus!" I think she pretty well nailed it back then - way back in 1990.
Frankly I find the conclusion the antagonists have of VPW being nothing but an unholy, unrepent sinner is just as ludicrous as the conclusion the apologists have of him, that is, VPW is so blessed holy - he's so blessed holy that, "Jesus himself is going to show up at the return with a PFAL book"!
The God of the bible I know never gave me revelation of either one. It must be because they're conclusions drawn by "bozos" who want to sit back and play as if they had the wisdom of God Almighty. Who do you think your going to fool with your antagoistic or your apologetic conclusions of VPW anyway? It's probably just yourself.
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alfakat
false dilemma, wth--rather transparent....try again, the 8-ball says....
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rascal
Awww Geeze wth...at least have the guts to stand by what you said....now you are dancing around and backpeddaling......sheeshe...You said early on in your post that you didn`t believe the accounts of vp`s abuse....ie...those (some of whom post here) who related their experiences are liars....
You also make many claims about the folks angry over the accounts of being impotent...bitter....overexagerating....doesn`t sound like you are in the middle at to me.
What do you think of the child abuse thread WTH? Think folks are guilty of being unfairly antagonistic over there as well? Guess I would too if my kid had been molested by a leader whom was a known pedophile....a leader whom had been placed in the area with vpw`s FULL awareness.
Damn right I have no use for your *great man of faith* or his destructive ministry.
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shazdancer
Okay, the more balanced approach to interpreting the life of VPW:
Positive: Biggest contribution -- put together a number of teachings on the Bible, thereby getting thousands of people on the road to being Christians, which we HOPE makes for eternal life
Negative: Biggest contribution -- personally abused many (dozens? hundreds?) sexually, emotionally, financially, and spiritually, including setting up and covering for leaders who did additional damage (certainly in the hundreds) which we KNOW destroyed their lives in THIS life.
Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin.
Shaz
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WordWolf
"If the VPW antagonists are nothing but whiners, liars, idiots,
etc. and the VPW apologists are also whiners, liars, idiots, etc,
therefore the most sensible thing YOU could do is find the
'middle ground' if you ask me- not to go about finding someone,
or accusing somebody of calling you a whiner, liar, idiot or
whatever."
Actually, WTH,
YOU decided that both sides were extreme, and therefore both
sides were wrong, so you DID call them liars, etc.
Second of all,
the reason nobody asked you what's sensible is that you're
demonstrating logic fallacies.
==========
Courtesy of the Nizkor Project.
"Description of Middle Ground,
Also known as Golden Mean Fallacy, Fallacy of Moderation.
This fallacy is committed when it is assumed that the middle
position between two extremes must be correct simply because
it is the middle position....
This line of 'reasoning' is fallacious because it does not follow
that a position is correct just because it lies in the middle of
two extremes. This is shown by the following example. Suppose
that a person is selling his computer. He wants to sell it for
the current market value, which is $800 and someone offers him
$1 for it. It would hardly follow that $400.50 is the proper
price.....the claim that the moderate or middle position is
correct must be supported by legitimate reasoning."
=======================
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oldiesman
One other comment about Fred Price...I was watching his program a few months ago and I couldn't believe something he taught...something in the bible that suggested to the effect that one can "lose their salvation if they don't curtail their sinful habit patterns." I don't know whether he took PFAL or not, but Price's teaching that day certainly was evidence to me that he was far far from the PFAL teaching on salvation, which perhaps was one of the most important and meaningful in PFAL.
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waterbuffalo
Alf, Raf, oldies,
No, it was apparent from listening to FP's teachings that he didn't believe regarding salvation the way that we were taught but that doesn't stop some people from borrowing the parts that they like.
But, SOME of his stuff, as Alfakat said, sounded like it came right out of PFAL and then the night he started teaching out of JCOP I was finally CONVINCED it wasn't a coincidence (I haven't listened to him in years so don't know what he preaches now).
But, he's someone who, how do I say this, didn't seem inclined to give credit to others, either....at least he didn't any of the times I listened to him.
Alf, sorry, but I'd never heard of Dr. Martin until you mentioned him so sure that could be a possibility, too.
WB
Asked why he began studying Greek at age 94, Oliver Wendell Holmes replied,"Well, my good sir, it's now or never!"
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Zixar
Here's a link to Martin's Star of Bethlehem book on his ministry's website.
http://www.askelm.com/books/book003.htm
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alfakat
oldies--he has branched out in the past 5-7 years in areas that he did not teach stuff in 15-20 years ago. I would safely say he does not teach nearly as "PFAL"-like as he once did...you needed to hear him from 82-92,3,4 to really know what I am talking about.
wb--you are certainly correct, I have very rarely heard him cite any source in any teaching that has appeared on TV....I would check Zix's link, it is the main source for the astronomy material in JCOPS.
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waterbuffalo
Thanks. Will do.
Asked why he began studying Greek at age 94, Oliver Wendell Holmes replied,"Well, my good sir, it's now or never!"
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ladycat
Hey, Brady,
Well, the kids are all grown. Chris is engaged and has a 5 yr old step son. He lives down in Cutler Ridge. Mandy is a high school teacher in Orlando. Hector is living in Broward somehwere with his 3rd wife and I am having a lovely time in the capital.
~~Cat
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