What's the trouble with Christmas? Christians are!

[markomalley]

Apparently the blame for all the current bru-ha-ha over whether it is "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays" rests squarely on the shoulders of Christians, according to Barry Lynn.

quote:

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Barry Lynn, a church minister and director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, said that if there appeared to be an escalation of disputes over religious references to Christmas, it was because of the "aggressive nature of some Christian groups demanding inclusion."

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Imagine that, there is a problem because Christian groups are being aggressive and (shudder) are demanding inclusion in Christmas celebrations. Oh, the scandal. I just don't think I can take this any more........

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[GarthP2000]

From the article, "But some Christians argue they are just fighting an exaggerated political correctness that they say is banishing Christ from Christmas.

Well when you stop and think about it, the Christmas celebration is largely based on the pagan holiday Saturnalia and related holidays and celebrations (like Winter Solstice?) long before Christ was born. The church basically took all the trappings and 'painted' Christ on it all.

So I guess thats why I find it rather amusing that many religious conservatives think that the 'politically correct liberals' are trying to 'steal' Christmas away from 'its true meaning'. Basically it was never really theirs to begin with as far as the meaning of the holiday goes.

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[markomalley]

Garth, why did I KNOW you were going to be the first respondant??????

Happy Solstice to you too.

:D-->

[GarthP2000]

Musta been re-e-valation.

That, ... and you probably saw my moniker at the bottom of the main page of the message board.

:D-->

Merry Xmas and Happy Bud Light New Year's to you too.

[excathedra]

oh i hate everybody

but i just got back from the most beautiful 5th grade play where they sang about christmas, kwanzaa, hanukkah.... stuff that would make even geo. cry

well you know what i mean

[Stayed Too Long]

Garth:

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So I guess thats why I find it rather amusing that many religious conservatives think that the 'politically correct liberals' are trying to 'steal' Christmas away from 'its true meaning'. Basically it was never really theirs to begin with as far as the meaning of the holiday goes.

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While this maybe the true origin of Christmas, when President Grant declared the federal holiday of Christmas 134 years ago, I don't image it was part of the celebration. The citizens of the United States were rejoicing in the birth of Jesus Christ, and set time aside on his supposed birthday to do that.

You can even argue that December 25 is not Jesus Christ's birthday, but that doesn't make the federal holiday any less applicable. The holiday was made to recognize Christ, just like Martin Luther King's holiday was established to recognize Martin Luther King.

I can't image eliminating King out of his January holiday, and say renaming it, "Down Hill Skiing Day" because someone felt offended by King.

Finally Christians are standing up for what is right and not letting Christ being taken out of Christmas.

[Stayed Too Long]

Having seen Barry Lynn on television a couple of times, it is obvious he is nothing more than an apologist for Christianity.

Can't believe he actually considers himself a Christian Minister.

[dmiller]

quote:

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I can't image eliminating King out of his January holiday, and say renaming it, "Down Hill Skiing Day" because someone felt offended by King.

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:D-->

or -- going to a gas station, and being offended by the gas pumps there;

or -- going to a clothing store, and complaining that there is merchandise on the shelves;

or -- going to a bank, and being offended because a vault is on the premises.

I'll bet all the folks who complain about Christmas, still expect to get the day off with pay. ;)-->

[ChattyKathy]

I hate shopping, but that's beside the point. Guess what was greeted to me in every single instance? It was "happy holidays". Okay fine, I could be of another faith, why not. I've no problem with that actually.

However, this:

"In the Miami area, a woman sued successfully for the right to place a nativity scene -- depicting the stable where Jesus Christ was born -- on the town of Bay Harbor Islands' main causeway alongside a municipal display of a Christmas tree and a menorah marking the Jewish holiday Hanukkah.

The Thomas More Law Center, which represented plaintiff Sandra Snowden in the Florida case, is also appealing in a suit it brought challenging New York's policy on religious displays in schools.

The center says the city's education department discriminates by permitting the display of the Menorah during Hanukkah and the Islamic star and crescent during Ramadan in city schools, but prohibiting nativity displays at Christmas.."

This however is a problem! I don't care if you're a Christian or not, you should be outraged that a specific faith is not allowed to show semblance (albeit not accurate) of their faith's trimmings. Did I say "a" faith? Sure did. Let's get a little more specific with an "a" faith. Christianity as much as it bunches the drawers up on some to think of ;)--> actually had something to do with the founding of this country. If someone proved me not a written note of it was present I'd still call them a liar, just so you know I'm rather firm on my stand here.

[mstar1]

I do have to wonder if a full-blown nativity scene is comparable to a single menorah or crescent. It'd have to be a mighty big a$$ menorah or crescent to achieve the same kind of scale as your traditional nativity scene, but thats beside the point I wish these holidays could be more about promoting mercy and love for your fellow man instead of fighting over where and whose holiday based trinkets could be set on the public lawn.

[Zshot]

Here's a scary thought...

Maybe, twi was pollitically correct before it was vouge to be so with "Happy Household Holidays" -->

For that reason alone.... Merry Christmas :D-->

[Steve!]

quote:

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Originally posted by excathedra:

but i just got back from the most beautiful 5th grade play where they sang about christmas, kwanzaa, hanukkah.... stuff that would make even geo. cry

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Yeah, I've been to some elementary school productions, too, and they brought me to tears. But what do you expect from gradeschoolers? ;)-->

[wyteduv58]

Whats Kwaanza?

[markomalley]

Dovey, I hope this provides you the info you need:

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Kwanzaa is a week long African American holiday observance held between December 26 and January 1. Timed to serve as an alternative to the growing commercialism of Christmas, it was created in 1966 by Ron Karenga. Kwanzaa is not a religious holiday, but a cultural one, a syncretic festival, based on various elements of the first harvest celebrations widely celebrated in Africa, around the 10th month of the year. According to polls, approximately one in six African-Americans celebrate Kwanzaa.

The name Kwanzaa derives from the Swahili phrase 'matunda ya kwanza', meaning "first fruits". The additional "a" was added to "Kwanza" so that the word would have seven letters, one for each of the Seven Principles, or Nguzu Saba, of Blackness.

(snip)

Procedure

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no one should mix the Kwanzaa holiday or its symbols, values and practice with the holidays of Anglo-Saxon culture. This would violate the principle of kujichagulia (self-determination) and thus violate the integrity of the holiday.

Criticisms

In the United States, Kwanzaa is often linked with the ancient religious holidays Christmas and Chanukah, both of which also fall in December. Some Christian and Jewish leaders have complained about having the two festivals equated with a celebration that dates back less than four decades. They argue that this has been caused by misguided attempts at political correctness.

Other criticisms center on Karenga's criminal record, including time spent in jail for felonious assault and false imprisonment, which some people feel detract from the celebratory nature of the event.

Kwanzaa supporters counter that there is nothing wrong with a celebration focusing on African American cultural values centered around family and community, that Kwanzaa is not a body of "faith" in the religious sense. They also note that Kwanzaa does not honor Karenga; he merely originated the holiday. There are holidays honoring far worse, they argue, pointing to the existence of Presidents' Day, a federal holiday set aside to honor, among others, President George Washington, a plantation owner who owned, bought and sold African slaves.

However, the cultural authenticity of Kwanzaa is questionable, being centered on East African customs (Swahili being an East African language) whereas most African-Americans are of West African descent.

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BTW, here's the entry on Ron Karenga, who created the holiday in the 1960s:

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Dr. Ron Karenga (born July 14, 1941, in Parsonsburg, Maryland) is an author and activist most famous as the founder of the African-American holiday of Kwanzaa, first celebrated in California, December 26, 1966 to January 1, 1967

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In 1965, Karenga formed the United Slaves, a black separatist group, in Los Angeles. Here he took on the title "Maulana," a title usually given to religious teachers in the Muslim world, and formulated his theory called 'Kawaida', a Swahili term for tradition and reason. Central to this doctrine are the Nguzu Saba, the 'Seven Principles' of Blackness, which are reinforced during the seven days of Kwanzaa. In 1967 and 1968, Karenga worked with Congressman Adam Clayton Powell, Jr., to hold the historic Black Power Conferences. In 1971, he was convicted of a violent felony. He was sentenced to one to ten years in prison, eventually being released in 1975. In 1978, he authored a comprehensive black studies textbook and by 1979 was running the black studies department at California State University, Long Beach. It was at this time that he became a Marxist.

(snip)

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Hopefully that gives you some good background on Kwanzaa. Interesting holiday founded by a person with an interesting history.