What Happened to Me? What Happened to Us?

[Dot Matrix]

"If VPW was a charlatan later is another fact but, that charlatan's teaching saved that man's life for my hands were there but so was our Lord because of it."

God saved that man's life. The teachings you learned were from BG Leonard's class and he taught about GOD. We were lucky that God was able to work in a crap storm because TWI was and is a crap storm.

God loved that man and by his power was he healed. It was God's grace and mercy. Your compassion and the teachings of BG Leonard and others allowed some of God's goodness to leak into what we were taught. Because God wanted him healed and because you heard some of God's goodness despite Weirwille's crap that man was reached.

Have you read any archived things on PFAL? Or on the promise made to BG Leonard that was mysteriously similar to Weirwille's "promise" etc. etc.?

PS Just because people are speaking the truth does not mean they are bitter.

You think people are muddy and leaking cisterns? I think people like you have their head in the sand....

Perhaps you should go to God and ask him to wipe the sand from your eyes so your vision can be 20/20 and you can really see what went on.

Unless you are another one here to bring us back to the greatness of the Moggie and his Class... Which has little to do with God, IMO.

I am glad you found God in the midst of all of this and have retained love in your heart. But your post sounds demeaning to those that are telling it like it is... And if they saw things you didn't like then they are bitter....

[JoeBeliever]

JoeBeliever wrote:

quote:

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I know I'm preaching to the choir..but it still should be said again and again until we drive out everyone whose still in pain and full of rage over someone else's devilishness. Let God judge that person so we can be free of bitterness.

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I apologize for what this sounds like...it should be:

I know I'm preaching to the choir..but it still should be said again and again until we drive out everyone['s pain who's] still in pain and full of rage over someone else's devilishness. Let God judge that person so we can be free of bitterness.

[rascal]

Welcome to grease spot Joe....I hope I can say this without offending you and running you off...but I really must take issue with your view of your brothers and sisters here...

Joe, I am sorry...but we are NOT broken cisterns here...OR filled with muddy waters...

We are ever so much more than that....

I agree with dott...please wipe the sand or scriptures or mote...whatever it is obscuring your vision....whatever it is that is preventing you from seeing what a wonderfully diverse group of precious souls we are here...each and every one valuable in their own unique way....

I wish that you could see just how precious each and every one of us here is to God....That you could see us as God does...

[JoeBeliever]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dot Matrix:

"If VPW was a charlatan later is another fact but, that charlatan's teaching saved that man's life for my hands were there but so was our Lord because of it."

God saved that man's life. The teachings you learned were from BG Leonard's class and he taught about GOD. We were lucky that God was able to work in a crap storm because TWI was and is a crap storm.

---

Yes, I know it is a crap storm and I am not proTWI FYI Dot...But, it became that way. Not born that way is what I am suggesting. Heck, what I learned in HS was mostly bogus crap that taught me very little practical living but some of it is useful. :)-->

quote:

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God loved that man and by his power was he healed. It was God's grace and mercy. Your compassion and the teachings of BG Leonard and others allowed some of God's goodness to leak into what we were taught. Because God wanted him healed and because you heard some of God's goodness despite Weirwille's crap that man was reached.

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Yes, I guess I wasn't emphatic enough about that. Good ole BG Leonard. I'm glad I knew it at the time though. I didn't mention that I was on crutches at the time and left em in the car to walk to the sprawled out old guy. If God wasn't in it it wouldn't have happened. :)--> The point being was that I was there because of what I learned and believed and it 'worked'. God still got the glory! :)-->

quote:

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Have you read any archived things on PFAL? Or on the promise made to BG Leonard that was mysteriously similar to Weirwille's "promise" etc. etc.?

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I've read some of Raf's work and am looking forward to more of it. It truly is a blessing to see some of this work. Many things I've challenged in my studies but not in that clarity of thought. I thank God its available.

quote:

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PS Just because people are speaking the truth does not mean they are bitter.

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Again, I apologize if I generalized. And thanks for stating it here. I agree.

quote:

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You think people are muddy and leaking cisterns? I think people like you have their head in the sand....

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Well...that's was a lame analogy I suppose. But, the one that came to mind. I often have thought of myself that way when I know my peace is gone over something. So, I know that the waters are muddy. Nothing derogatory here...I mean we all have the flesh to deal with. I don't think that checking myself and others on this issue has me with my head in the sand. Perhaps the opposite would be the case.

quote:

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Perhaps you should go to God and ask him to wipe the sand from your eyes so your vision can be 20/20 and you can really see what went on.

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I can only speak for what went on in my life. What I saw was plenty wrong. But, I'm not throwing the baby out with bath water either. Bitterness is something akin to poison to the soul of a person

quote:

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Unless you are another one here to bring us back to the greatness of the Moggie and his Class... Which has little to do with God, IMO.

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Do I sense a slander here? What does this contribute? Are you so angry with the Way's oldest teachings that I am now quilty by association because I have stated something good about my experiences? I certainly have many bad experiences to sound off on but, I choose not to at this point. I have do so in the past but have healed. No profit to bring it up again except where someone has a better doctrine to consider. But, my good personal experiences should have no basis for attack or dismissal. It is these experiences I only bring up because they demonstrate the right things that were taught.

quote:

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I am glad you found God in the midst of all of this and have retained love in your heart. But your post sounds demeaning to those that are telling it like it is... And if they saw things you didn't like then they are bitter....

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Again, I apologize for the directness. It is difficult to bring up things where others harbor hurt feelings without arousing it in them. I wish I were a better writer at times.

Our hope of Christ's return where we will know even as we are known is a glorious hope to harbor and that love from God to hold to is so healing for all of us and others around the world.

[JoeBeliever]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dot Matrix:

Song

I think this thing got WIDE because of the line across your page. See if taking it out can shrink this sown please. It is hard to read.

Thank you.

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Any clue how to post it without it being so wide anyone?

Thanks...appreciate it.

Joe

[WordWolf]

Hello, Joe Believer!

I'm reasonably certain that wasn't meant as a slander.

If you've been catching up on the many threads all over the place here,

you may have seen the following things...

(among others)

A) posts where people expose covered-up things from twi

B) posts where people expose errors and problems in twi's teachings

C) posts where people expose the origins of twi's materials

D) posts where people claim it was never really bad

E) posts where vpw has always been God's favourite-according to some

F) posts where pfal has always been God's special class

The posts in the latter category tend to impede the healing of people who

are coming to grips with how much was hidden from them, how many lies they

were told, and how good God is once you remove the thousand-and-one

shackles twi doctrine hobbles God's grace with. These posts come anyway.

Some people claim the ONLY purpose some people have here is to say bad

things about vpw and twi. Usually, these people claim that there were

never any lies, vpw never raped or molested anyone, vpw was never a

control freak, pfal was never ripped off from other Christians, and things

would be as perfect as they once were if only we went back to pfal....

We get that from time to time, from people who refuse to move forward-

then accuse others of being unable to move forward. So, your post made

it sound like you might have been advocating that.

Me, I'm thankful for the results I did see and the legitimate things I

learned. I'm also thankful I'm free of the organization that would have

sucked the life out of me as I sought to be my best for God.

It might be unclear if you feel the same way, or if, instead, you meant

to say that the horror stories some suffered thru never actually

happened. So, that, I'm sure, was the thought behind the pointed

question.

[frank123lol]

When I first got Involved in twi,it was taught we should question tradition religion ect

Over the years as things arose twi did not like to be questioned esp thier traditions

One thing amoung others that riled me was,there

was always two different standards.Internationals and the fields.When pop

hit it was in our area that it was the fields fault that people left

Twi even though you will never accept responsibility for your actions the rest of us

have.

Personaly I got a belly full when everything I did was wrong according to the loco nazi way corpse.I would wake up in the morning wondering if God even loved me anymore.

At that low point I realized the bs was them not me life got better from there.

Sounds like a cult thing tear someone down expose all thier weakness then ??? buid them in thier way image

What abuse what horror we need to tell people about this insanity No one should be able to do

these tehniques to anyone

Twi stick this in your holy sanctfied household

it stinks according to God.

I aint bitter I am thankful not to live like that no more Thanks to you all here

[JoeBeliever]

quote:

---

Originally posted by WordWolf:

I'm reasonably certain that wasn't meant as a slander.

If you've been catching up on the many threads all over the place here,

you may have seen the following things...

(among others)

A) posts where people expose covered-up things from twi

B) posts where people expose errors and problems in twi's teachings

C) posts where people expose the origins of twi's materials

D) posts where people claim it was never really bad

E) posts where vpw has always been God's favourite-according to some

F) posts where pfal has always been God's special class

The posts in the latter category tend to impede the healing of people who

are coming to grips with how much was hidden from them, how many lies they

were told, and how good God is once you remove the thousand-and-one

shackles twi doctrine hobbles God's grace with. These posts come anyway.

Some people claim the ONLY purpose some people have here is to say bad

things about vpw and twi. Usually, these people claim that there were

never any lies, vpw never raped or molested anyone, vpw was never a

control freak, pfal was never ripped off from other Christians, and things

would be as perfect as they once were if only we went back to pfal....

We get that from time to time, from people who refuse to move forward-

then accuse others of being unable to move forward. So, your post made

it sound like you might have been advocating that.

---

Thanks for the overview. I really appreciate it.

Me, I'm thankful for the results I did see and the legitimate things I

learned. I'm also thankful I'm free of the organization that would have

sucked the life out of me as I sought to be my best for God.

It might be unclear if you feel the same way, or if, instead, you meant

to say that the horror stories some suffered thru never actually

happened. So, that, I'm sure, was the thought behind the pointed

question.

Rest assured...I feel the same way Wordwolf.

Thanks again,

Joe

[George Aar]

If anyone's still reading this thread, here's the Skepdic's take on it (doesn't a lot of this sound way too familar),

http://skepdic.com/cults.html

[The Skeptical Texan]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dot Matrix:

In PA, almost all my classes were filled with Catholics and "cool" searchers of the era.

What do you think was the lure for the Catholics?

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Poor catechesis.

I remember when I was "in," I repeatedly said, "if the denominational churches were doing their job, there would be no need for TWI." I still say that this statement is true.

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I'd add that it had a lot to do with changes resulting from Vatican II. Vatican II may have been overdue, but it completely removed the awesome ritual, the "mystery" if you will, from the Mass. Without that, the whole enterprise seemed rather devoid of genuine spirituality. This, I think, led many to look elsewhere. I have met many ex-Catholics who deserted their Mother Church for non-denominational Bible churches.

Some even went so far as to join a cult in their pursuit of genuine spirituality. The references to bongs may explain why many accepted TWI without an appropriate degree of skepticism.

Edited April 4, 2004 by Skeptic1028

[markomalley]

SkepTex:

A lot of flakey ideas happened in the wake of Vatican II. The documents I have read are not nearly so much of a departure as some of the interpretations thereto. Vatican II, for example, did not forbid the Tridentine Mass: it authorized vernacular masses. But, it took Card. Retzinger (sp?) to point that fact out 35 years after the fact.

Poor cathechesis enabled a lot of wackos to push their ideas upon an unknowing and nonunderstanding laity. Yes, unfortunately, a lot of folks did leave the Church and a few of them ended up in some really strange places. But, even that is changing. Over 1,600 cathecumens and candidates participated in the Rite of Election this year in the Archdiocese of Washington alone. If a small diocese like this one had that many, I'd be curious to see what the numbers were like in a big diocese.

But, frankly, this isn't a Catholic board, so I don't want to bore people with a bunch of details.

[GrouchoMarxJr]

A very good question and a lot of good answers.

Let's face it, people are basically "herd" animals. They "need" to belong to some kind of group where they feel they "belong". I think this same inner drive is connected to folks who end up being co-dependant in a relationship.

All through life we see factions gathering themselves into little groups. Fraternities, bowling teams, the Elks club, the Methodist church, etc. It's human nature to want to be part of something that makes you "belong" to something. It becomes unhealthy when a person NEEDS to do this in order to "feel good" about themselves.

Twi took advantage of this inner human condition. Accepting their elitism, arrogance, and "we got all the answers" position came with the package. Instead of a frat jacket, we wore name tags. Instead of a secret handshake, we all babbled incoherant words out of our mouths on cue. Instead of loving people, we used people.

Why did we quit questioning? Probably because we really enjoyed "belonging" to the group. Raising questions only put your membership standing at risk. Once twi convinced a person that an "open mind" was putting you in danger of being swallowed up by a demon, the rest was easy.

In my opinion, the folks with "addictive personalities" have had the hardest time leaving and getting over it. Some of us (in thoses years) "held something back". In other words, I never really "sold out" to twi lock, stock and barrel. I tried to, but there was something inside me that would not allow me to give the allegience that was meant for God to people. No matter how loud numbnuts martinbumb would scream and shout, there was "something" deep inside that said...no deal.

Twi took advantage of this