The reasons for being "hooked" in the first place are varied: love of God manifested in peoples' lives, bible taught "accurately", committment level, etc.
Mine was the novelty of seeing someone actually read the bible to find answers, rather than in one's own philosophy or in religious fancies that were not biblically based.
Okay Tree...I was not conned by the novelty of someone actually opening a bible...I said that's what hooked me. Perhaps I wasn't clear. I should have said "what attracted me".
How I was conned is a long story. Maybe I'll take the time to post it tomorrow, it's midnight here and I work for a living :D--> or maybe you'll figure your own mind out before then.
Asking for opinions and then shooting them down without really seeing the depth of the reasoning is probably not what you're trying to do NLBT.
I hope you get the answers that you're looking for
Sorry Oaks, this was posted while you were posting
Oakspear,
Sorry, didn't mean to slam, but I think you and many others were smarter than that. It had to be deeper. Maybe not, but I don't want to believe I was so falible(sp?). I want to credit my parents for not raising a fool.
What was that sub consious(sp?) element that made us so prone to follow?
But really, I do have to get to bed. I have some thoughts on this that I'd like to post, but I'll wait until tomorrow, after a full day of capitalistic activity
I would agree with you in part that maybe the answers don't exist. Or at least not to our satisfaction. We did question, at some point, I think though. Maybe not soon enough, long enough or maybe we just couldn't do anything about the answers for a time.
For me, personally, I questioned in plenty of time, but jumped in anyway because of love. Then before I knew what happened, that love had become a marriage and each layer got piled on top of the others and I was bound by vows and not being willing to have my daughter lose her daddy. But that's another talk show.
I think that some events in our lives don't have concrete answers that we can be satisfied with. And we have to accept that and find a place for the frusteration.
I will never understand why I allowed my child to be put in the dangerous places I did. I will never understand why I put up with the crap I did or did the things I did. I know I am a very intelligent outspoken women and am shocked at what I took. But maybe that's part of the answer to why I finally broke free.
Speaking of our age group being seekers, are we now at the place in our life where we again are seeking but with more settled motives for answers? The age I am in now, the mid 40's almost is biologically the time of life when we are more quiet, better leaders, less patient and much more sure of where we need to be.
At 22 when I got sucked into twi by way of love, I was still a child, with childish ideations and plans for who I wanted to be. I was more vulnerable, more laid back cared almost nothing about tomorrow. It was and is the nature of that age group.
Also at that age, are we not self professed bullet proof? Did we not have the attitude of 'they can't control me, I don't care what anyone says, I'll dam well leave when I wanna leave' and we really believed it and acted like it.
I dunno, I love your questions, I just lean into the not knowing if we'll ever really know, or at least not for now.
Well, I can certainly relate to these questions NLBT. I came from a culture on the other side of the counter myself, AND was raised to question pretty much everything. The subsequent 180 is something I've reflected on at length. I suspect it's an investigation which will continue on some level for the rest of my life (especially given the vigor with which I re-embraced questioning, after the ten year black hole in TWI).
Pat answers are seductive. They may have a particular appeal to those of us who were highly open-minded by nature (and nurture). Sounds contradictory but I don't think it is. Wanting to be right is natural. Living a life without absolutes carries with it a certain degree of frustration, and even work. Gotta consider all the angles, make informed decisions, get educated, read read read, and often... STILL not know "truth" from "error".
TWI rescued us from relativism (or some of us anyway). No more fences to sit on or contend with. It was refreshingly (disgustingly) easy. The pseudo-intellectual "research" angle gave it a familiar legitimacy (something I made use of in assuring my father he had NOT raised a fool, even though I was acting like one). We ignored the red flags and blaring horns in the back of our minds because we were so busy "working the Word", focusing on all those stupid little details which were dressed up to look like smart answers to every single question we would ever have to face. What a relief!
What a waste. That I had to become an idiot in order to finally become wise about my own ignorance frustrates me, but in the end - for me - it was worth it. Finding out that I really didn't need to know that I know that I know stuff with a mathematical certainty and a scientific precision (except for actual math and science thank you very much) was a pretty valuable lesson.
Anyway, that's just one of the things I've unearthed. Not sure it applies to you, but thanks for provoking it nonetheless. Like Shellon, I "lean into the not knowing" to some extent - downright embrace it in fact. Exploring my own story has brought few "answers"... but much understanding. I appreciate that difference now, in a way I never would have without pi$$ing away a decade in that freakish little cult.
Well whether you like the word or not , to a certain extent we were brainwashed, or if you prefer mind controlled. I havent got the time right now to find Liftons criteria but there were about 8 steps according to him that will result in people being easily pliable, steps that fit in well with the TWI MO.
To a great extent while I was in, information was controlled as well as our peer group and associations, there were alot of other tricks that made us psychologically easily manipulable.
I think, speaking as a questioning boomer, that TWI appealed to me because it questioned things.
TWI seemed to question the "establishment" of traditional Christianity. And TWI got us busy asking some of the same questions. And while we were busy questioning others, we were being taken by them.
I thought I could trust them, because they seemed to be searchers themselves. TWI packaged itself as a "research" ministry with ethical principles. That's what attracted me, anyway.
However, once I was ensconced in the institution and got to HQ, I discovered the ethics there were actually corrupt. I for one believed at that time that the ministry could be saved and tried to do it. Ended up in loads of trouble, then left HQ and prayed for a change.
After POP I thought the change might occur. Husband and I did our best to try to help LCM get the ministry on the right track. Unfortunately, LCM was not repentant, and the effort was doomed from the outset.
Spent several decades and hundreds of thousands of dollars invested into trying to fix an irrepairable institution we thought had been dedicated to the accuracy of "the Word".
My experience is similar in many respects to Oak's.
I will add that part of the answer is not within the person. It is also important to recognize that there was a focused but hidden agenda in recruiting you using practiced techniques. How did people become nazis or communists, turning in their own parents to the government over their parent's heresy? Gradual but INTENTIONAL removal of the building blocks of conscience. No one showed up one day and said "hey, let's shoot your parents." Nope, they had to lie in wait with cunning craftiness to deceive you. Hey, isn't that in the Bible? :-) If you study the methods of the Nazi Youth (HitlerJugend) or the Young Communists (Komsomol), they may look eerily familiar. They are pretty old tricks. Not much new under the sun, after all.
So why didn't we do a better job of questioning? My opinion is it's fair to ask ourselves that to a point. My line is when it stops being a learning process and becomes a guilt or shame process then it's no longer healthy.
Welcome to GS! It is such a great place to learn, discuss and even just vent at times.
This also bothers me, but I know that I was in the middle of the early 70's and drugs and sex was just common place. I really did not like all this and was kind of lonely. Parents in the middle of ugly divorce and a rather stressed family life. Lots of responsibility with helping to raise my little brothers and then along comes one of my good friends from high School talking about the Bible and it's answers and etc etc. It was like a family I did not have. For a few years I kind of just came to Twig when I wanted too and then as all my HS friends (there was about 8) started classes and fellow laborers and etc etc they pressured me more and more for involvement. I was smart enough to finish my education program following HS, get a job, but not smart enough to walk away. Eventually it took me in and then 17 years later I returned to real life. I also questioned the things I saw at Emporia and HQ and things personally I experienced. Once you are in the groove of the whole scene it's hard to swim to the shore. Eventually questioning sent all of us from HQ in groups at a time as LCM endeavoured to remove everyone that no longer would just except or support his thinking. Athletes of the spirit - was more than I could handle watching previews week after week at sunday night services. I was happy to leave HQ and knew it was coming soon.
I think it is like living with an abusive spouse and hoping tomorrow will be better, but only the abuse is worst the next time.
The fear that LCM and all his gang used held people in. The household, the protection for your family- for some it was scarey and more fearful to stay then to leave and someone die.
Even leaving TWI was something I wanted it took years to work though all the junk. Thankful GS gave me a place to understand that I could revisit my questioning and express myself and find other smart & loving people that were taken in.
My frustration is really aimed at myself. I may be wanting answers were no answeres exist.
Or maybe I'm not wanting to see answers that are obvious.
That's the crux of the issue - you've got to look inside yourself (therapy helps) and discover what unconscious need or desire your involvement with the way was meeting. Usually these things are not clear to the conscious mind.
In my case it was a need for direction, a family, and the desire to justify myself, my purpose, my mission etc. with some external thing I trusted more than myself. I too came from the culture you did. What an irony that I really was seeking so much external validation and didn't realize it.
You have to "do your own work" as they call it now; to see what the deal was for you.
Interesting factoid - most of the people attracted to all cults over those years were young, educated, middle class.
Isn't that the $64,000 question? It is frightening to finally realize how easily we were conned and how easily people are motivated to commit absurd acts by just pulling the right "strings".
Personally I know I was simply looking for attention, and probably a little affection as well. Both came cheap in WayWorld. The scary part is how willing I was to overlook the OBVIOUS bull$hit in order to continue in TWI-style, manufactured bliss.
The REALLY scary part is how I was willing to keep on accepting the crap even after the "honeymoon" era of cult indoctrination was over.
And even scarier than that is to see how many people the world over are locked into some bone-headed, superstitious, B.S. belief system, and are quite willing and able to do their best to destroy the rest of the known world because of those beliefs.
I agree with My3Cents. Different answers, for different people, coming from different circumstances.
Maybe for some of us, we simply wanted to understand the bible, and make sense out of God. And maybe for others, there were much more complex things going on, as 3cents said. There's no shame in attempting to figure it out. We all are, after all, mere humans trying to find our way. And for many of us, we thought we found in in "The Way, Inc." Our youth, naievite, and idealism was exploited.
"How?" we know, I think, (if we've hung around GS a while :D--> ) but "Why?" I guess we each have to answer for ourselves.
quote:I have always wondered why I did not investigate (question) more deeply the teachings/mandates/rules I accepted, while within TWI.
NLBT, I started seriously questioning tithing around 9 years after I first took PFAL. Why did it take so long? The answer is simple, I think because I was blessed and happy with everything else, that it wasn't that big a deal.
People hung around for 15, 20, 25 years knowing there were imperfections, but I think the godly elements and benefits outweighed the hassles. That's the best answer I come up with why folks didn't leave sooner or right away.
I didn't leave sooner, because I was still rebelling against my parents. As long as we fought about twi, I dug my heels in and stayed put. When they stopped, I stopped. Within a year, I was GONE!!!!!!!
My decent into the TWI elitist mindset was fueled by someone telling me that everything that I believed in and was taught in my ''formative'' years was a ''crock and I'd better remove that idolatrous gold cross from around my neck; after all, if he were killed by a firing squad, wouldya wear a gun???'' -->
Made me question everything, and from that point on I never really knew what to believe.
Fast forward about 10 years later (now) I have a real relationship with the Father and NOT, NOT, NOT because of any church or ministry or any religious politically and socially motivated group. It's just me and Him and that's the way I like it. Uh Huh, Uh Huh...
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dmiller
NewLeaf -- Welcome to GSCafe!!
:)--> 
:)-->
Short answer to your question -- We all got "sucker-punched".
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Oakspear
We questioned whatever we did before TWI, but somehow got convinced that all our questioning brought us to the TRUTH...no more questions needed
Welcome to GS
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NewLeafBetterTree
dmiller,
To be a sucker you must fall for a con. How did I(we) fall for the con? What was I(were we) desiring or needing that made me/us a sucker to TWI's con?
Is there an answer?
NewLeaf
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NewLeafBetterTree
Oakspear,
I want to know the somehow.I want to know how they got to me. So I won't make the same mistake again.
NewLeaf
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Oakspear
Well NLBT, I can tell you how I fell for it, but that might not be the same as for you.
I suggest trying to remember what attracted you to TWI in the first place.
Perhaps whatever that was that attracted you was important enough that it distracted you from seeing areas that were not so great.
Were there times when you knew doctrine or practice was wrong, but you compromised, or looked the other way because of the perceived good in TWI?
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Oakspear
The reasons for being "hooked" in the first place are varied: love of God manifested in peoples' lives, bible taught "accurately", committment level, etc.
Mine was the novelty of seeing someone actually read the bible to find answers, rather than in one's own philosophy or in religious fancies that were not biblically based.
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NewLeafBetterTree
Oakspear,
Geez,Is that all it takes? Then anyone could con anybody; just open a bible, read it, and tell people what you want them to think it says.
NewLeaf
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Oakspear
Okay Tree...I was not conned by the novelty of someone actually opening a bible...I said that's what hooked me. Perhaps I wasn't clear. I should have said "what attracted me".
How I was conned is a long story. Maybe I'll take the time to post it tomorrow, it's midnight here and I work for a living
:D--> or maybe you'll figure your own mind out before then.
Asking for opinions and then shooting them down without really seeing the depth of the reasoning is probably not what you're trying to do NLBT.
I hope you get the answers that you're looking for
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NewLeafBetterTree
Sorry Oaks, this was posted while you were posting
Oakspear,
Sorry, didn't mean to slam, but I think you and many others were smarter than that. It had to be deeper. Maybe not, but I don't want to believe I was so falible(sp?). I want to credit my parents for not raising a fool.
What was that sub consious(sp?) element that made us so prone to follow?
NewLeaf
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Oakspear
Apology accepted
:D-->.
But really, I do have to get to bed. I have some thoughts on this that I'd like to post, but I'll wait until tomorrow, after a full day of capitalistic activity
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NewLeafBetterTree
Oakspear,
My frustration is really aimed at myself. I may be wanting answers were no answeres exist.
Or maybe I'm not wanting to see answers that are obvious.
NewLeaf
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Shellon
I would agree with you in part that maybe the answers don't exist. Or at least not to our satisfaction. We did question, at some point, I think though. Maybe not soon enough, long enough or maybe we just couldn't do anything about the answers for a time.
For me, personally, I questioned in plenty of time, but jumped in anyway because of love. Then before I knew what happened, that love had become a marriage and each layer got piled on top of the others and I was bound by vows and not being willing to have my daughter lose her daddy. But that's another talk show.
I think that some events in our lives don't have concrete answers that we can be satisfied with. And we have to accept that and find a place for the frusteration.
I will never understand why I allowed my child to be put in the dangerous places I did. I will never understand why I put up with the crap I did or did the things I did. I know I am a very intelligent outspoken women and am shocked at what I took. But maybe that's part of the answer to why I finally broke free.
Speaking of our age group being seekers, are we now at the place in our life where we again are seeking but with more settled motives for answers? The age I am in now, the mid 40's almost is biologically the time of life when we are more quiet, better leaders, less patient and much more sure of where we need to be.
At 22 when I got sucked into twi by way of love, I was still a child, with childish ideations and plans for who I wanted to be. I was more vulnerable, more laid back cared almost nothing about tomorrow. It was and is the nature of that age group.
Also at that age, are we not self professed bullet proof? Did we not have the attitude of 'they can't control me, I don't care what anyone says, I'll dam well leave when I wanna leave' and we really believed it and acted like it.
I dunno, I love your questions, I just lean into the not knowing if we'll ever really know, or at least not for now.
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pamsandiego
Well, I can certainly relate to these questions NLBT. I came from a culture on the other side of the counter myself, AND was raised to question pretty much everything. The subsequent 180 is something I've reflected on at length. I suspect it's an investigation which will continue on some level for the rest of my life (especially given the vigor with which I re-embraced questioning, after the ten year black hole in TWI).
Pat answers are seductive. They may have a particular appeal to those of us who were highly open-minded by nature (and nurture). Sounds contradictory but I don't think it is. Wanting to be right is natural. Living a life without absolutes carries with it a certain degree of frustration, and even work. Gotta consider all the angles, make informed decisions, get educated, read read read, and often... STILL not know "truth" from "error".
TWI rescued us from relativism (or some of us anyway). No more fences to sit on or contend with. It was refreshingly (disgustingly) easy. The pseudo-intellectual "research" angle gave it a familiar legitimacy (something I made use of in assuring my father he had NOT raised a fool, even though I was acting like one). We ignored the red flags and blaring horns in the back of our minds because we were so busy "working the Word", focusing on all those stupid little details which were dressed up to look like smart answers to every single question we would ever have to face. What a relief!
What a waste. That I had to become an idiot in order to finally become wise about my own ignorance frustrates me, but in the end - for me - it was worth it. Finding out that I really didn't need to know that I know that I know stuff with a mathematical certainty and a scientific precision (except for actual math and science thank you very much) was a pretty valuable lesson.
Anyway, that's just one of the things I've unearthed. Not sure it applies to you, but thanks for provoking it nonetheless. Like Shellon, I "lean into the not knowing" to some extent - downright embrace it in fact. Exploring my own story has brought few "answers"... but much understanding. I appreciate that difference now, in a way I never would have without pi$$ing away a decade in that freakish little cult.
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WordWolf
First of all,
I agree with the intent behind this line of questioning.
We were hosed once, and would like to keep from being hosed again.
I think we can all agree with that-almost all of us, anyway.
I think pamsandiego put a good start on this answer.
I'll add my own touches.
Each of us, or most of us, had questions, and other people didn't have the
answers.
We were then sold the idea that TWI had the answers. Starting with the
answers we needed-which was the "proof" they had ALL the answers in
existence-we were sold the idea that TWI was THE group with THE answers,
as taught by THE Teacher. Many or most of what they taught was backed up
with Scripture one way or another, so we gave the rest the "benefit of the
doubt" rather than scrutinize it all. After all, if they're this diligent
on what I understand, they must be equally diligent when I'm NOT looking.
Further, all the evil stuff was done behind closed doors and in secrecy.
(Bread eaten at night is sweet.)
So, we were all sold that things got MORE (not LESS) Godly as you got
closer to the epicenter. vpw came up with a perfect class to teach all
the answers he got after he put aside all his reading materials, and he
was THE dude God worked with to educate us. In overt and covert ways,
this was the lie that was perpetuated, and most of it's still taught at
twi and in some offshoots, even. We were taught that we were better than
everyone else-as if ability to recite Greek words and memorization were
the MOST important things to God. "We thought we were invincible. We
thought we could do anything." (Wesley Crusher.)
So, the lies came slowly, and disguised in blocks of truth. Someone slipped
some arsenic in a banquet, and we ate at it. Some eventually died, many
of us got sick, and some of us still haven't purged all the poison from
our tissues yet.
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mstar1
Well whether you like the word or not , to a certain extent we were brainwashed, or if you prefer mind controlled. I havent got the time right now to find Liftons criteria but there were about 8 steps according to him that will result in people being easily pliable, steps that fit in well with the TWI MO.
To a great extent while I was in, information was controlled as well as our peer group and associations, there were alot of other tricks that made us psychologically easily manipulable.
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Catcup
I think, speaking as a questioning boomer, that TWI appealed to me because it questioned things.
TWI seemed to question the "establishment" of traditional Christianity. And TWI got us busy asking some of the same questions. And while we were busy questioning others, we were being taken by them.
I thought I could trust them, because they seemed to be searchers themselves. TWI packaged itself as a "research" ministry with ethical principles. That's what attracted me, anyway.
However, once I was ensconced in the institution and got to HQ, I discovered the ethics there were actually corrupt. I for one believed at that time that the ministry could be saved and tried to do it. Ended up in loads of trouble, then left HQ and prayed for a change.
After POP I thought the change might occur. Husband and I did our best to try to help LCM get the ministry on the right track. Unfortunately, LCM was not repentant, and the effort was doomed from the outset.
Spent several decades and hundreds of thousands of dollars invested into trying to fix an irrepairable institution we thought had been dedicated to the accuracy of "the Word".
Big mistake.
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JustThinking
NLBT,
My experience is similar in many respects to Oak's.
I will add that part of the answer is not within the person. It is also important to recognize that there was a focused but hidden agenda in recruiting you using practiced techniques. How did people become nazis or communists, turning in their own parents to the government over their parent's heresy? Gradual but INTENTIONAL removal of the building blocks of conscience. No one showed up one day and said "hey, let's shoot your parents." Nope, they had to lie in wait with cunning craftiness to deceive you. Hey, isn't that in the Bible? :-) If you study the methods of the Nazi Youth (HitlerJugend) or the Young Communists (Komsomol), they may look eerily familiar. They are pretty old tricks. Not much new under the sun, after all.
So why didn't we do a better job of questioning? My opinion is it's fair to ask ourselves that to a point. My line is when it stops being a learning process and becomes a guilt or shame process then it's no longer healthy.
Welcome to GS! It is such a great place to learn, discuss and even just vent at times.
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detour
This also bothers me, but I know that I was in the middle of the early 70's and drugs and sex was just common place. I really did not like all this and was kind of lonely. Parents in the middle of ugly divorce and a rather stressed family life. Lots of responsibility with helping to raise my little brothers and then along comes one of my good friends from high School talking about the Bible and it's answers and etc etc. It was like a family I did not have. For a few years I kind of just came to Twig when I wanted too and then as all my HS friends (there was about 8) started classes and fellow laborers and etc etc they pressured me more and more for involvement. I was smart enough to finish my education program following HS, get a job, but not smart enough to walk away. Eventually it took me in and then 17 years later I returned to real life. I also questioned the things I saw at Emporia and HQ and things personally I experienced. Once you are in the groove of the whole scene it's hard to swim to the shore. Eventually questioning sent all of us from HQ in groups at a time as LCM endeavoured to remove everyone that no longer would just except or support his thinking. Athletes of the spirit - was more than I could handle watching previews week after week at sunday night services. I was happy to leave HQ and knew it was coming soon.
I think it is like living with an abusive spouse and hoping tomorrow will be better, but only the abuse is worst the next time.
The fear that LCM and all his gang used held people in. The household, the protection for your family- for some it was scarey and more fearful to stay then to leave and someone die.
Even leaving TWI was something I wanted it took years to work though all the junk. Thankful GS gave me a place to understand that I could revisit my questioning and express myself and find other smart & loving people that were taken in.
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My3Cents
That's the crux of the issue - you've got to look inside yourself (therapy helps) and discover what unconscious need or desire your involvement with the way was meeting. Usually these things are not clear to the conscious mind.
In my case it was a need for direction, a family, and the desire to justify myself, my purpose, my mission etc. with some external thing I trusted more than myself. I too came from the culture you did. What an irony that I really was seeking so much external validation and didn't realize it.
You have to "do your own work" as they call it now; to see what the deal was for you.
Interesting factoid - most of the people attracted to all cults over those years were young, educated, middle class.
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George Aar
Yeah, "How'd this happen to me?"
Isn't that the $64,000 question? It is frightening to finally realize how easily we were conned and how easily people are motivated to commit absurd acts by just pulling the right "strings".
Personally I know I was simply looking for attention, and probably a little affection as well. Both came cheap in WayWorld. The scary part is how willing I was to overlook the OBVIOUS bull$hit in order to continue in TWI-style, manufactured bliss.
The REALLY scary part is how I was willing to keep on accepting the crap even after the "honeymoon" era of cult indoctrination was over.
And even scarier than that is to see how many people the world over are locked into some bone-headed, superstitious, B.S. belief system, and are quite willing and able to do their best to destroy the rest of the known world because of those beliefs.
A mind is a terrible thing...
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ex10
I agree with My3Cents. Different answers, for different people, coming from different circumstances.
Maybe for some of us, we simply wanted to understand the bible, and make sense out of God. And maybe for others, there were much more complex things going on, as 3cents said. There's no shame in attempting to figure it out. We all are, after all, mere humans trying to find our way. And for many of us, we thought we found in in "The Way, Inc." Our youth, naievite, and idealism was exploited.
"How?" we know, I think, (if we've hung around GS a while
:D--> ) but "Why?" I guess we each have to answer for ourselves.
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oldiesman
NLBT, I started seriously questioning tithing around 9 years after I first took PFAL. Why did it take so long? The answer is simple, I think because I was blessed and happy with everything else, that it wasn't that big a deal.
People hung around for 15, 20, 25 years knowing there were imperfections, but I think the godly elements and benefits outweighed the hassles. That's the best answer I come up with why folks didn't leave sooner or right away.
Individual experiences may vary.
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def59
I didn't leave sooner, because I was still rebelling against my parents. As long as we fought about twi, I dug my heels in and stayed put. When they stopped, I stopped. Within a year, I was GONE!!!!!!!
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jezusfreaky
My decent into the TWI elitist mindset was fueled by someone telling me that everything that I believed in and was taught in my ''formative'' years was a ''crock and I'd better remove that idolatrous gold cross from around my neck; after all, if he were killed by a firing squad, wouldya wear a gun???''
-->
Made me question everything, and from that point on I never really knew what to believe.
Fast forward about 10 years later (now) I have a real relationship with the Father and NOT, NOT, NOT because of any church or ministry or any religious politically and socially motivated group. It's just me and Him and that's the way I like it. Uh Huh, Uh Huh...
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