Many thanks to everyone for their supportive posts on behalf of imbus. I admire her courage for wanting to support the theme of this thread with her own story. It is very hard to write and see your story in print, because you have to relive it. Trust me, it is no fun.
Oldies,
As others have said, I also see imbus' regret throughout her post on the incident. I see more angst in what she wrote than in what you wrote about having a romp with a Corps girl who asked you to sponsor her the next day. I didn't hear YOU take "personal responsibility," but I heard it in imbus.
You want to point out the difference between "fornication" and "adultery," but I see a different HUGE discrepancy between your incident and hers. In imbus' account, the other party was a trusted leader.
Let me give you a lesser look at what happens when a person in authority abuses his power. I was at a big event -- maybe it was the Rock, I don't recall anymore. I saw Wierwille and Howard. Gee, I'm so thankful for the BOT's stand on the Word. So glad they run the organization that set me free. Let me give them a kiss and a hug. When I get to Howard, he sticks his tongue in my mouth.
What to think? If it had been any other schlub I'd just met, I'd have thought he was a jerk, and stayed away from him. Maybe some would have slapped his face, or made a rude remark. But I was young and naive, and THIS WAS WIERWILLE'S RIGHT-HAND MAN. My immediate response was to go blank. The action (sexual aggression) didn't fit with the image (man of God). In my mind, I began to make excuses for him. (Don't think evil of your brother in Christ, ya know.) Maybe his mama didn't teach him how to kiss politely. Maybe he did it by accident! Yeah, that was what I was thinking.
Now try and think of what it would be like for a young follower with a trusted reverend. He doesn't just one day drop his drawers and say, "here." No, it's after lots of sweet times of working together, hugs, counseling, back rubs, laughing together, and sharing hearts together. A relationship of trust is built. Perhaps the girl is even made to feel that she caused the incident somehow.
Oldies, experts in the field of psychology equate sexual abuse by a pastor with INCEST. The trauma faced by the one abused is the same. The confusion, the guilt, the betrayal -- the same.
I am really sad for OM. His issues with women,grace,autocratic relationships and understandable neurosis have made him not in touch with his core self. It must be hard living in his black and white world and I understand why he must live there. Anything other than black or white is to scary. With what he has posted...he can do no other... and I accept that.
OM, I wish you would consider reading a book I resently stumbled apon. "FOR YOUR OWN GOOD" [Hidden Crulity in Child-Rearing and the Roots of Violence} by Alice Miller.
I really do hope one day that you experiance the liberation of grace and love. Also enjoy the healing that exist in the gray. Imbus
quote: "MO, blaming PFAL on blowjobs is #1 right now, but I'm sure you and Coolwaters will put something together that tops that one!
hhahahha ha ha ha
Oldies
You digusting pervert
you filthy minded gutter dwelling slime
THEy never got me into therir Sex circle or even let me know about it so they took what was available for their games.
My then three year old daughter and my two then 6 year old sons
That's right they molested my babies--told they kids they would kill them of they ever talked
But then as you said this is all
hhahahha ha ha ha RIGHT?!?!?
BUT I AM SURE YOU ARE NOW GOING TO EXPLAIN TO ALL OF US HOW
1) the kids acrions were so sexually suggestive that no full grown man couold resist them
2) the grownups "just couldn't help themselves"
3) It's my fault that I was so busy WOrking to support a household of 8, by working to cook clean, wash, cater to my husbands every whim, work 17 hour days to pay the bills, becuase of course hubby isn't working, and so exhausted I fell into bed to start the whole thing again the next AM That I "refused to see what was going on"
Oh I am sorry I forgot the Big one
4. THe kids "KNEW" sex was wrong so it was their fault.
Which ever of the above you choose I feel confident in stating that you will NEVER COMe to the conclusion
that TWIG LEADERS, LIMB AND BRANCH PRESIDENTS WHO CONDON THIS BEHAVIOUR ARE IN ANY WAY TO BLAME. AND of couse your beloved VPW who ordered the Homosexual Corpsman who was our TWIG Leader transferred to Alaska to avoid his Prosecution IN Ohio where he did the Exact same thing are above reproach.
I am sitting here nearly in tears trying no erase the feeling in my heart so that I won't ask GOd to strike you with Lightening.
ANd DOn't bother telling me that thought violates my faith I know that already oh Minion of Lucifer
As others have said, I also see imbus' regret throughout her post on the incident. I see more angst in what she wrote than in what you wrote about having a romp with a Corps girl who asked you to sponsor her the next day. I didn't hear YOU take "personal responsibility," but I heard it in imbus.
Shaz, of course I take personal responsibility for my actions. I'm not blaming it on anyone, even the Corps girl who seduced me. It's all my doing. But what I did was not adultery, wasn't committing a crime against another human being, since we were both consenting adults, and I certainly don't quote some lame excuse about a sentence in PFAL causing my promiscuity.
Just out of curiousity....OM, you have vigorously condemned Imbus. What about the man? Do you think he was an innocent victim of a lustful woman? He was the one who was married, and held a position of some status and repute. Imbus didn't say, but he may well have been ordained, then or later.
What of his abuse of his position of authority?
And heck, yes, that teaching on David and Bathsheba was the key that opened the door. I remember being astounded for years about that. Since VPW was so keen on quoting verse, chapter and verse, where in Scripture does it literally say "All the women of the kingdom belonged to the king?" It doesn't. David was subject to the same Mosaic law as every other Israelite of his time. He broke the 7th commandment. Then he tried to hide the evidence. Then he committed murder for hire.
quote:Just out of curiousity....OM, you have vigorously condemned Imbus. What about the man? Do you think he was an innocent victim of a lustful woman? He was the one who was married, and held a position of some status and repute. Imbus didn't say, but he may well have been ordained, then or later.
What of his abuse of his position of authority?
Watered Garden,
The man committed adultery as well.
quote: And heck, yes, that teaching on David and Bathsheba was the key that opened the door.
You're saying something in PFAL was the key that opened the door to adultery. Balderdash. I don't buy that gobbledygook. Like the "Christ is absent" false accusation. Take one phrase out of its context, and use that as a strawman to make all sorts of false accusations and excuses. It's lame and disgusting.
Minion of Lucifer? No, usurper of his role in a Christian's life. If he needs any help accusing Christians and making them feel guilty of their past sins, I think he knows who to call.
Oldiesman, if you don't think Way doctrine and practice implicitly condoned adultery and twisted PFAL and the Bible to do it, then you've got your head in the sand.
aaaw DAMN ((((mo))) God I am sick....not only did twi develope abusers....provide an environment that encouraged their behavior...they COVERED for the sick perverts......hid them....helped them evade prosecution...and then foisted them off on some other poor unsuspecting area....placed them in authority over yet a new set of believers whom had been trained to trust/support/obey ....to have them indulge in heinious acts...
WHO gets persecuted and harrassed???? the slimeball child sexual abusers??? oh HELL no...it is the ones who have the guts to stand up against it....
Taught us to be abusers??? They raised it to an art form.
You stil haven't responded to the main entry to my post--
You caught on the the parts directed at you specifically, now how about speaking to the rest of the post
OR, could It be, even you can't justify what was done in God's name?
If that's the case why not be a man and step up to the plate and say they were wrong????
I'm sorry you are upset by my characterzation of you. But as you so ably pointed out on another thread, for you to demand I keep my opinions to myself would be in fact trivializing those opinions.
quote:The way I see it, she's blaming it on something Wierwille said in PFAL, that's now being used as an excuse why some assented to the adultery. It was never ok.
No one here ever said it was ok Oldies - Not even once. You are arguing againt yourself here and againt your hero VPW.
See, your hero VPW did say by implication in his teaching on David that it was ok for the "King" to commit adultry. You rightly say it is never ok, yet VPW impies that it is ok, his expection being "the King" (Top Leader). What was Wierwille in relationship to TWI? How blind are you?
Imbus did not use that as an "excuse" as you attempt to mischaracterize what she said, but rather as an "explanation" as to how she came to that mindset. Where did Imbus attempt to "excuse" her actions? She didn't.
quote: Again, its hard to definitively say why folks committed adultery, it obviously was a mess. But blaming PFAL isn't the answer.
It's hard for you because, you can't see past your own peachy view of PFAL/TWI-1 and your hero VPW who started all the TWI adultery mess himself. You can't seem to be able to add 2 plus two or to connect the dots because YOUR mindset won't allow it. You would rather cast blame and point out sins of those who were deceived, than to consider that misuse of PFAL and of "the Word" by your hero was where it all started.
You posted to Zix:
quote: Zix, you're assuming again that folks had the brains and wills of innocent children. Come on. Children are children; adults are adults. I don't think its fair or honest to put all the blame on Wierwille and the BOT. Exceptions: children, the demented, or those that were allegedly drugged and thereafter raped....".
Oldies, is a 17-year-old girl who has never lived away from home a true adult? I would call this an innocent child myself and quite impressonable - especially at the hands of someone they think is kind and loving and who they trust to really know the real truth of "the Word".
Oldies, considering all the first-hand testimony that you have heard over the last 18 months or so, by folks much closer to the source than you were, is it really such a leap to consider that some young women were deceived to believe, if even for a moment, that adultery was really ok and not even really adultery because God was actually being served by blessing/serving the MOG? Is really so hard to consider that PFAL and "the Word" were used(misused) as tools in this ploy?
Oldies, take off your rose colored glasses concerning TWI/PFAL and VPW and open your eyes to the deception and "mind control" that went on in your precious TWI-1 at the hands of your hero and those he infulenced. Until then you will continue to be the resident Pharisee here at GS and will have nothing to offer except as an example of how blind loyalty and denial can sear one's concience.
methinks om is upset that he wasn't invited to be part of the inner circle.
Goey beat me to it, but I will second his observation that a naive 17-year old who has never lived away from home, never experienced corrupt, evil, lying adults will naturally trust and believe everything they are taught...ESPECIALLY if what they are taught is coming from the greatest man of God they have ever met.
om, it's not an affair, it's not just a romp with a man that we're talking about here. It's deception at its worst.
I repeat my suggestion from several pages ago...
QUIT WHILE YOU'RE BEHIND!
edited because I can't figure out how to make the bold part huge
"You're saying something in PFAL was the key that opened the door to adultery. Balderdash. I don't buy that gobbledygook. Like the "Christ is absent" false accusation. Take one phrase out of its context, and use that as a strawman to make all sorts of false accusations and excuses. It's lame and disgusting."
Golly Sixty! Did I say anything like that? Gee Whiz, Oldies, I'm just a dumb female. One of those "silly women" who is supposed to be easily led? How could I say anything so intelligent as to qualify as "gobbledygook?" :P-->
Seriously, I think much, much more was impliedin that "teaching" than actually said. David was "a man after God's own heart." He had sexual intercourse resulting in conception with a woman named Bathsheba who was the lawfully wedded wife of Uriah, David's general. That sounds an awful lot like David committed adultery. So how can it be wrong for a man after God's own heart to commit adultery? Simple, really. He really didn't, and that's where the line "All of the women in the kingdom"...came in.
And by the way, you never answered my question. Where is the exact, precise, specific verse that says "all of the women in the kingdom belong to the king"? Where? Book, chapter and verse, please.
quote:Oldies, is a 17-year-old girl who has never lived away from home a true adult? I would call this an innocent child myself and quite impressonable - especially at the hands of someone they think is kind and loving and who they trust to really know the real truth of "the Word".
It really all depends on the mindset of the 17 year old. Some young people are responsible and know right from wrong....some haven't quite gotten to that level. But twisting a sentence from PFAL isn't the answer.
quote:Is really so hard to consider that PFAL and "the Word" were used(misused) as tools in this ploy?
It's lame and disgusting the way you and others debase and disparage PFAL, to make a point. It's got 1001 wonderful great principles, but you manage to twist a phrase out and claim that was the open door to adultery. What an irresponsible claim.
quote:Until then you will continue to be the resident Pharisee here at GS and will have nothing to offer except as an example of how blind loyalty and denial can sear one's concience
I say Wierwille and the BOT did both good and evil works. But your unrelenting, unforgiving attacks on Wierwille and the BOT place no value on anything good they ever did, only the evil. Your thoughts and words more demonstrate Phariseeism than mine ever could.
quote:And by the way, you never answered my question. Where is the exact, precise, specific verse that says "all of the women in the kingdom belong to the king"? Where? Book, chapter and verse, please.
WG
Watered Garden,
This is what is being used as the strawman. Take something completely out of context, add some Wierwille hatred here, some evil surmisings there, and Voila! Adultery all started from PFAL!
quote:It's lame and disgusting the way you and others debase and disparage PFAL, to make a point. It's got 1001 wonderful great principles, but you manage to twist a phrase out and claim that was the open door to adultery. What an irresponsible claim.
Holy cow, is it hard work coming up with stuff this stupid?
Oldiesman, WE'RE NOT THE ONES TWISTING THE PHRASE! Others did it, and used it to justify adultery! And because TWI HAD NO SOUND TEACHING on adultery, this misinterpretation was able to flourish among those who were abusing it...
PLUS!!!! it was WRONG to begin with! Not every woman in the kingdom belonged to the king. David had no right to take Bathsheba. David's sin was NOT just having Uriah killed. It was adultery. How do we know this? BECAUSE ALL OF NATHAN'S REPROOF was about adultery, and none of it was about murder. This fact is conveniently left out.
So, a wrong doctrine in PFAL got twisted into wrong practice which led good people who wanted to please God to question whether they really understood adultery after all...
And you bury your head in the sand and pretend that none of this happened, despite the massive evidence to the contrary, and when one of your sisters makes a pained admission of her own participation in this, the best you can do is stitch an A on her chest and call it a day.
As others have said, I also see imbus' regret throughout her post on the incident. I see more angst in what she wrote than in what you wrote about having a romp with a Corps girl who asked you to sponsor her the next day. I didn't hear YOU take "personal responsibility," but I heard it in imbus.
Shaz, of course I take personal responsibility for my actions. I'm not blaming it on anyone, even the Corps girl who seduced me. It's all my doing. But what I did was not adultery, wasn't committing a crime against another human being, since we were both consenting adults, and I certainly don't quote some lame excuse about a sentence in PFAL causing my promiscuity.
But you do admit it was sin, do you not? And if not, I would like to see where promiscuity is defended in the Bible.
Do you also agree with the scriptures that judge teachers harder than the students?
Do you admit the possibility of abuse in twi. We saw how they mangled scripture.
And let's not forget this is the same ministry that fired its top researcher when he came out with a paper that said — gasp — adultery was sin.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
18
17
23
52
Popular Days
Apr 21
71
Apr 22
69
Apr 13
40
Apr 14
37
Top Posters In This Topic
excathedra 18 posts
Goey 17 posts
Raf 23 posts
oldiesman 52 posts
Popular Days
Apr 21 2004
71 posts
Apr 22 2004
69 posts
Apr 13 2004
40 posts
Apr 14 2004
37 posts
shazdancer
Many thanks to everyone for their supportive posts on behalf of imbus. I admire her courage for wanting to support the theme of this thread with her own story. It is very hard to write and see your story in print, because you have to relive it. Trust me, it is no fun.
Oldies,
As others have said, I also see imbus' regret throughout her post on the incident. I see more angst in what she wrote than in what you wrote about having a romp with a Corps girl who asked you to sponsor her the next day. I didn't hear YOU take "personal responsibility," but I heard it in imbus.
You want to point out the difference between "fornication" and "adultery," but I see a different HUGE discrepancy between your incident and hers. In imbus' account, the other party was a trusted leader.
Let me give you a lesser look at what happens when a person in authority abuses his power. I was at a big event -- maybe it was the Rock, I don't recall anymore. I saw Wierwille and Howard. Gee, I'm so thankful for the BOT's stand on the Word. So glad they run the organization that set me free. Let me give them a kiss and a hug. When I get to Howard, he sticks his tongue in my mouth.
What to think? If it had been any other schlub I'd just met, I'd have thought he was a jerk, and stayed away from him. Maybe some would have slapped his face, or made a rude remark. But I was young and naive, and THIS WAS WIERWILLE'S RIGHT-HAND MAN. My immediate response was to go blank. The action (sexual aggression) didn't fit with the image (man of God). In my mind, I began to make excuses for him. (Don't think evil of your brother in Christ, ya know.) Maybe his mama didn't teach him how to kiss politely. Maybe he did it by accident! Yeah, that was what I was thinking.
Now try and think of what it would be like for a young follower with a trusted reverend. He doesn't just one day drop his drawers and say, "here." No, it's after lots of sweet times of working together, hugs, counseling, back rubs, laughing together, and sharing hearts together. A relationship of trust is built. Perhaps the girl is even made to feel that she caused the incident somehow.
Oldies, experts in the field of psychology equate sexual abuse by a pastor with INCEST. The trauma faced by the one abused is the same. The confusion, the guilt, the betrayal -- the same.
Do you get it yet?
Shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
imbus
I am really sad for OM. His issues with women,grace,autocratic relationships and understandable neurosis have made him not in touch with his core self. It must be hard living in his black and white world and I understand why he must live there. Anything other than black or white is to scary. With what he has posted...he can do no other... and I accept that.
OM, I wish you would consider reading a book I resently stumbled apon. "FOR YOUR OWN GOOD" [Hidden Crulity in Child-Rearing and the Roots of Violence} by Alice Miller.
I really do hope one day that you experiance the liberation of grace and love. Also enjoy the healing that exist in the gray. Imbus
Link to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
"
Oldies
You digusting pervert
you filthy minded gutter dwelling slime
THEy never got me into therir Sex circle or even let me know about it so they took what was available for their games.
My then three year old daughter and my two then 6 year old sons
That's right they molested my babies--told they kids they would kill them of they ever talked
But then as you said this is all
hhahahha ha ha ha RIGHT?!?!?
BUT I AM SURE YOU ARE NOW GOING TO EXPLAIN TO ALL OF US HOW
1) the kids acrions were so sexually suggestive that no full grown man couold resist them
2) the grownups "just couldn't help themselves"
3) It's my fault that I was so busy WOrking to support a household of 8, by working to cook clean, wash, cater to my husbands every whim, work 17 hour days to pay the bills, becuase of course hubby isn't working, and so exhausted I fell into bed to start the whole thing again the next AM That I "refused to see what was going on"
Oh I am sorry I forgot the Big one
4. THe kids "KNEW" sex was wrong so it was their fault.
Which ever of the above you choose I feel confident in stating that you will NEVER COMe to the conclusion
that TWIG LEADERS, LIMB AND BRANCH PRESIDENTS WHO CONDON THIS BEHAVIOUR ARE IN ANY WAY TO BLAME. AND of couse your beloved VPW who ordered the Homosexual Corpsman who was our TWIG Leader transferred to Alaska to avoid his Prosecution IN Ohio where he did the Exact same thing are above reproach.
I am sitting here nearly in tears trying no erase the feeling in my heart so that I won't ask GOd to strike you with Lightening.
ANd DOn't bother telling me that thought violates my faith I know that already oh Minion of Lucifer
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Shaz, of course I take personal responsibility for my actions. I'm not blaming it on anyone, even the Corps girl who seduced me. It's all my doing. But what I did was not adultery, wasn't committing a crime against another human being, since we were both consenting adults, and I certainly don't quote some lame excuse about a sentence in PFAL causing my promiscuity.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Watered Garden
Just out of curiousity....OM, you have vigorously condemned Imbus. What about the man? Do you think he was an innocent victim of a lustful woman? He was the one who was married, and held a position of some status and repute. Imbus didn't say, but he may well have been ordained, then or later.
What of his abuse of his position of authority?
And heck, yes, that teaching on David and Bathsheba was the key that opened the door. I remember being astounded for years about that. Since VPW was so keen on quoting verse, chapter and verse, where in Scripture does it literally say "All the women of the kingdom belonged to the king?" It doesn't. David was subject to the same Mosaic law as every other Israelite of his time. He broke the 7th commandment. Then he tried to hide the evidence. Then he committed murder for hire.
WG
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Um, what are the rules regarding namecalling?
I've been called this and that, an idiot, a jerk, misogynist, etc. etc.
Let's try to keep the debate civil, shall we?
If folks can't make points without namecalling, perhaps calming down could help.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
Perhaps apologizing to Mo would help.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
Want some chesse with tHat Whine, OLdies?
By the way, did you even read any of the rest of my post about TWI events--or are they just "too Trivial" for you to be bothered with ????
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
And I WAS civil. And you ignored the bulk of my post.
AND I said that you didn't take responsibility for your action IN PRINT, but imbus did.
So whine all you want when someone (gasp!) calls you a name, when what you said to HER was despicable.
Shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Besides, you left out:
"The world's only living heart donor."
"Compassion free zone."
"Pharisee."
You are utterly heartless. If you had half the integrity of imbus, you would apologize to her and drop this stubborn Pharisee act.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
imbus
OM, you have the right to read
the said post above and tear apart my intent. I ask you to just take it face value.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Raf:
I forgot to mention another one:
oh Minion of Lucifer
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Watered Garden,
The man committed adultery as well.
You're saying something in PFAL was the key that opened the door to adultery. Balderdash. I don't buy that gobbledygook. Like the "Christ is absent" false accusation. Take one phrase out of its context, and use that as a strawman to make all sorts of false accusations and excuses. It's lame and disgusting.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
"The man committed adultery as well."
Well, isn't that nice of you to say?
It was SO not the point.
Minion of Lucifer? No, usurper of his role in a Christian's life. If he needs any help accusing Christians and making them feel guilty of their past sins, I think he knows who to call.
Oldiesman, if you don't think Way doctrine and practice implicitly condoned adultery and twisted PFAL and the Bible to do it, then you've got your head in the sand.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
aaaw DAMN ((((mo))) God I am sick....not only did twi develope abusers....provide an environment that encouraged their behavior...they COVERED for the sick perverts......hid them....helped them evade prosecution...and then foisted them off on some other poor unsuspecting area....placed them in authority over yet a new set of believers whom had been trained to trust/support/obey ....to have them indulge in heinious acts...
WHO gets persecuted and harrassed???? the slimeball child sexual abusers??? oh HELL no...it is the ones who have the guts to stand up against it....
Taught us to be abusers??? They raised it to an art form.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
OLDIES,
You stil haven't responded to the main entry to my post--
You caught on the the parts directed at you specifically, now how about speaking to the rest of the post
OR, could It be, even you can't justify what was done in God's name?
If that's the case why not be a man and step up to the plate and say they were wrong????
I'm sorry you are upset by my characterzation of you. But as you so ably pointed out on another thread, for you to demand I keep my opinions to myself would be in fact trivializing those opinions.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
MO,
I read the rest of your post and not sure what you want me to say.
Adults are responsible for their actions. Those not responsible are: children, the demented, and those who were narcotized.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Goey
Oldies,
No one here ever said it was ok Oldies - Not even once. You are arguing againt yourself here and againt your hero VPW.
See, your hero VPW did say by implication in his teaching on David that it was ok for the "King" to commit adultry. You rightly say it is never ok, yet VPW impies that it is ok, his expection being "the King" (Top Leader). What was Wierwille in relationship to TWI? How blind are you?
Imbus did not use that as an "excuse" as you attempt to mischaracterize what she said, but rather as an "explanation" as to how she came to that mindset. Where did Imbus attempt to "excuse" her actions? She didn't.
It's hard for you because, you can't see past your own peachy view of PFAL/TWI-1 and your hero VPW who started all the TWI adultery mess himself. You can't seem to be able to add 2 plus two or to connect the dots because YOUR mindset won't allow it. You would rather cast blame and point out sins of those who were deceived, than to consider that misuse of PFAL and of "the Word" by your hero was where it all started.
You posted to Zix:
Oldies, is a 17-year-old girl who has never lived away from home a true adult? I would call this an innocent child myself and quite impressonable - especially at the hands of someone they think is kind and loving and who they trust to really know the real truth of "the Word".
Oldies, considering all the first-hand testimony that you have heard over the last 18 months or so, by folks much closer to the source than you were, is it really such a leap to consider that some young women were deceived to believe, if even for a moment, that adultery was really ok and not even really adultery because God was actually being served by blessing/serving the MOG? Is really so hard to consider that PFAL and "the Word" were used(misused) as tools in this ploy?
Oldies, take off your rose colored glasses concerning TWI/PFAL and VPW and open your eyes to the deception and "mind control" that went on in your precious TWI-1 at the hands of your hero and those he infulenced. Until then you will continue to be the resident Pharisee here at GS and will have nothing to offer except as an example of how blind loyalty and denial can sear one's concience.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
insurgent
methinks om is upset that he wasn't invited to be part of the inner circle.
Goey beat me to it, but I will second his observation that a naive 17-year old who has never lived away from home, never experienced corrupt, evil, lying adults will naturally trust and believe everything they are taught...ESPECIALLY if what they are taught is coming from the greatest man of God they have ever met.
om, it's not an affair, it's not just a romp with a man that we're talking about here. It's deception at its worst.
I repeat my suggestion from several pages ago...
QUIT WHILE YOU'RE BEHIND!
edited because I can't figure out how to make the bold part huge
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Watered Garden
"You're saying something in PFAL was the key that opened the door to adultery. Balderdash. I don't buy that gobbledygook. Like the "Christ is absent" false accusation. Take one phrase out of its context, and use that as a strawman to make all sorts of false accusations and excuses. It's lame and disgusting."
Golly Sixty! Did I say anything like that? Gee Whiz, Oldies, I'm just a dumb female. One of those "silly women" who is supposed to be easily led? How could I say anything so intelligent as to qualify as "gobbledygook?"
:P-->
Seriously, I think much, much more was impliedin that "teaching" than actually said. David was "a man after God's own heart." He had sexual intercourse resulting in conception with a woman named Bathsheba who was the lawfully wedded wife of Uriah, David's general. That sounds an awful lot like David committed adultery. So how can it be wrong for a man after God's own heart to commit adultery? Simple, really. He really didn't, and that's where the line "All of the women in the kingdom"...came in.
And by the way, you never answered my question. Where is the exact, precise, specific verse that says "all of the women in the kingdom belong to the king"? Where? Book, chapter and verse, please.
WG
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Goey:
It really all depends on the mindset of the 17 year old. Some young people are responsible and know right from wrong....some haven't quite gotten to that level. But twisting a sentence from PFAL isn't the answer.
It's lame and disgusting the way you and others debase and disparage PFAL, to make a point. It's got 1001 wonderful great principles, but you manage to twist a phrase out and claim that was the open door to adultery. What an irresponsible claim.
I say Wierwille and the BOT did both good and evil works. But your unrelenting, unforgiving attacks on Wierwille and the BOT place no value on anything good they ever did, only the evil. Your thoughts and words more demonstrate Phariseeism than mine ever could.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Watered Garden,
This is what is being used as the strawman. Take something completely out of context, add some Wierwille hatred here, some evil surmisings there, and Voila! Adultery all started from PFAL!
Disgusting. Lame and disgusting.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Holy cow, is it hard work coming up with stuff this stupid?
Oldiesman, WE'RE NOT THE ONES TWISTING THE PHRASE! Others did it, and used it to justify adultery! And because TWI HAD NO SOUND TEACHING on adultery, this misinterpretation was able to flourish among those who were abusing it...
PLUS!!!! it was WRONG to begin with! Not every woman in the kingdom belonged to the king. David had no right to take Bathsheba. David's sin was NOT just having Uriah killed. It was adultery. How do we know this? BECAUSE ALL OF NATHAN'S REPROOF was about adultery, and none of it was about murder. This fact is conveniently left out.
So, a wrong doctrine in PFAL got twisted into wrong practice which led good people who wanted to please God to question whether they really understood adultery after all...
And you bury your head in the sand and pretend that none of this happened, despite the massive evidence to the contrary, and when one of your sisters makes a pained admission of her own participation in this, the best you can do is stitch an A on her chest and call it a day.
Apologize already.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
def59
But you do admit it was sin, do you not? And if not, I would like to see where promiscuity is defended in the Bible.
Do you also agree with the scriptures that judge teachers harder than the students?
Do you admit the possibility of abuse in twi. We saw how they mangled scripture.
And let's not forget this is the same ministry that fired its top researcher when he came out with a paper that said — gasp — adultery was sin.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.