You mean that every word in THE WORD was not PERFECT? And that God didn't have a reason for everything in the Bible, where He says it, why He says it, how He says it, to whom He says it, when He says it?
Heresy!
:)-->
Well God may not have had a reason in particular, but the writers and subsequent editors of this material certainly must have had their reasons, i.e., to water down the more heretical ideas not in harmony with their own.
A common opinion regarded for the occassion of writing "Laodiceans" is that such a letter is mentioned at the end of Colossians as having been sent to them.
Imbus-you made a really interesting comment about the presence of conflict flushing out the real issues. I thought that was insightful....It would be boring if we all agreed, and I thinking facing people sometimes helps me to really solidify what I am thinking and feeling internally....sometimes it helps me find the words or see the position I have taken objectively and then I still agree with myself or sometimes change, but it does help ---sometimes. But still keep your guard up from the scab pickers of the world. ;)-->
OM, I believe you received some form of egotisical, arregant joy out of this thread at my expense. What you have non-verbally done is interagated the issue inappropratly so that if other females were to speak their truth, it would be met with your meanspirited scruteny.(parden the spelling) BY your words I felt my soul was being raped and I believe that was your intent. To humiliate.
I'v been in the mental health feild for over ten years and I know when a personal agenda is being masked. IMO your distaste for females rings loud and clear even if you do cloke it with the Bible. Most fundementalist do.
So IMO your input wasn't really about adultry but more about degrading a female in the name of God. I can own my actions of adultry. Can you own for yourself what appears to be bitterness and hate twards women? And your attacks twards women who are apart of the Body of Christ?
If this is loving your neibor as yourself then you most really loth some aspects of your being. I am really sad for you brother. I am sorry that, whatever you have suffered in life...it has brought you to this place of being. I'm sorry.
I do not accept your apology if it was to patrenize me or others. I do accept it if.... you really mean it even if it is half hearted.
My whole point in sharing my experiance was how did I get to this mind set that having sex with a married man was o.k? I for one do not get a thrill out of oral sex. And by the way it was a one way street. I gave and did not recieve.
With that having been said, if you knew me prior to the WAY CORPs this would be out of character. So there were many factors that led to my actions. Factors that have some roots in PFAL. (That has been covered in this thread.) Sometimes what has not been said speaks louder than what has been said. What was not been addressed in PFAL was adultry but murder. And again IMO set a precident, to open the door to the "if you can handle it" crap. I feel I was set up "Brainwashed" with years of indoctrination to come to this mind set.(How many times do you take PFAL? How Many times did you run a class? Where we not guided into mastering PFAL?)
Lots of non-verbals from men and women both! Women who by example took a back seat to abusive male dominance in there marrages and relationship to men in general. Mrs.V.P is a good example of such a relationship. I think How@rd All@n should have been V.Ps wife with all the attention he received. Dorthia W. did not deserve what was delt to her while she was married to V.P. And all the stuff that has surfaced since his death...how humilating.
So having not a strong female role model in my life I took my Qs from TWI women and men. Shame on me.
imbus got around here late but thank you for that insight and dam I took my q's from some of these so called wonderful leaders too and not all but seems I too with some leaders that put their egos on a much higher platter at other's expense of not really offering up nurture and I guess to the ones on here that make idiotic jokes or comments haven't a clue so I just color them thick as a brick and yeah maybe some day they will get it !
I was in the 15th corps and it was an unwritten,unspoken accecptance that having sex with the MOG was o.k.(If you could handle it)<BR><BR>
I know of two of my corps sisters that had this type of relationship with the BOT. One was an eX-hooker from N.Y and the other was well-endowed. <BR><BR>
This type of unspoken doctrine originated in PFAL. When it was taught that King David could have any women in the kingdom and that his "sin" was having Urriah murdered, it set a non-verbal open door on the subject. After all David was choosen of God and even the prophet Nathan was at risk of death for speaking up about it. (V.PE interpretation)
This type of crap puts in the mind of the young beleiver that sex was o.k for the MOG to have anyone he chooses and only God can reprove that man.<BR><BR>I too know by experiance this crap. One of the most loving men I knew at H.Q, I blew. He had a wife and two kids and was on the Pres. cabinate and/or was head of a dept.<BR><BR>
How did I get to this mind set that nothing was sacrad, but only the word of God. How did I get to the place that my own self respect takes a back seat when it comes to MOG and his needs. Where did this .... come from? Well for me I believe it started with PFAL.<BR><BR>
This is the first time I have spoken anything about this and it is frightening. Frightening because I am not a slut and wanted more than anything to be a WOG. I wanted to be a spiritual women and I believed at the time it was my obligation. Reflecting back I am sad and grieve my loss of spiritual innocence.
Remember hearing "just shake the dust off your feet"? What this really meant was he's not gonna take the class, we won't be getting his money, therefore we have no more time to waste on him.<BR><BR> The care and concern we had for people was always being "tempered" by twi leadership. True unconditional love was not allowed. There were always strings attached. When a corps leader would be reassigned to another area, all the "friendship, intimate conversations, and concern for that individual in his previous area would disapear faster than a porkchop in a dog kennel, once he was reassigned. It was all phoney and it was all contrived.<BR><BR> The worse part is that we were all taught to treat people this way. Some of us did more than others. How many times did you see a twig coordinator really ream somebody in his twig out because the previous night he himself got reamed out by a leader that was higher up on the food chain? Now it was his turn. How many cute way girls went "witnessing" in a bar, ended up flirting her way into some guys life and then manipulating him to take the class?<BR><BR> We were all taught how to put on our "believer face" just to show people how spiritual we were and how loving we were...sorry it was just an act. As soon as we realized that you were not gonna take our class or believe the same things we believed, we cut you loose and never thought of you <BR><BR> Afterall, we needed to get that class together by the end of the month so that we ourselves would gain favor from the mighty ones in charge. It was all about looking good and making them money. A lot of the techniques were subtle but they were all meant to use people.<BR><BR> Sexual promiscuity was not limited to just top way leadership. I had guys in my twig that were constantly trying to get some way girl into the sack. There were huge arguments about this issue as some of these guys would constantly quote the famous doctrine taught to the 6th corps that it was ok as long as you could "handle it". Well all these guys thought that they could "handle it" just fine.<BR><BR> The methods of recruitment and of keeping the "faithful" in line were both manipulative and abusive. We were taught these methods and they became institutionalized . We used bible verses deceptively to get people to do what we wanted them to do. We lied to people and we used them. All so that we could appear to be a "growing" ministry ( which really meant more money).<BR><BR> In the process of cult recovery, I think it's important to recognize the fact that we were not only victims, but that many of us were also victimizers. I did my share of manipulating people and I admit it. At the time I thought that I was doing the right thing but in the end, I found out differently. <BR><BR> That's why, when I left twi, I went out of my way, seeking all the people that I had a part in recruiting and talked to each one of them. Thankfully, every person that I ever got to take the class has now left twi and I feel better about that.<BR><BR> Both wierwille and martindale were master manipulators and screwed up a lot of people's lives. I'm thankful that I finally recognized the truth and was able to disassociate myself from both being a victim and from being part of a system that caused me to victimize others. It's a two edged sword. The twier who was victimized by some leader quite probably victimized someone else below them in the tree. <BR><BR> As reprobate as both wierwille and martindale were, thousands of folks weren't taken advantage of by just two guys. It was a corrupt sytem and we all played a part in it.
This is priceless again you unfolded alot of spiritual pimpin going on, but hey nothing new under da sun. PEACE bro
[Well, since this was brought up, I'd like to look it over.
My comments in boldface. of course.]
Remember hearing "just shake the dust off your feet"? What this really meant was he's not gonna take the class, we won't be getting his money, therefore we have no more time to waste on him.
[We pretty much WERE supposed to focus on either
A) new people who haven't heard about "the class"-so we could promote it
B) new people who were committed to taking it, or were grads-so we could promote MORE classes
In my local area, we weren't "model" examples of this. Then again, the genuine interest worked
better on recruitment/retention, IMHO, than the assembly-line model taught to the corpse
and to the wows.]
The care and concern we had for people was always being "tempered" by twi leadership. True unconditional love was not allowed. There were always strings attached. When a corps leader would be reassigned to another area, all the "friendship, intimate conversations, and concern for that individual in his previous area would disapear faster than a porkchop in a dog kennel, once he was reassigned. It was all phoney and it was all contrived.
[Yeah-all contact with the old location's people were severed, etc.
Either the connections were shallow, or-as later happened-we were actively discouraged
from continuing contact. Either way, the system was unhealthy.]
The worse part is that we were all taught to treat people this way. Some of us did more than others. How many times did you see a twig coordinator really ream somebody in his twig out because the previous night he himself got reamed out by a leader that was higher up on the food chain? Now it was his turn. How many cute way girls went "witnessing" in a bar, ended up flirting her way into some guys life and then manipulating him to take the class?
[A number of posters HAVE reported that's how they got involved with twi...]
We were all taught how to put on our "believer face" just to show people how spiritual we were and how loving we were...sorry it was just an act. As soon as we realized that you were not gonna take our class or believe the same things we believed, we cut you loose and never thought of you.
[God forbid we just plain RELAX around people and allow ourselves to be human,
to feel human emotion, and do human things like other people.
Even Jesus wept when a friend died.]
Afterall, we needed to get that class together by the end of the month so that we ourselves would gain favor from the mighty ones in charge. It was all about looking good and making them money. A lot of the techniques were subtle but they were all meant to use people.
It was subtle because it wasn't always easy to see "step=money" every time.
After all, someone COULD take a class to learn something- not just to increase income
from class attendance, and the available pool of tithers, and people willing to pay to go
wow or corps. Reminds me-why WERE wow's charged $200 to go wow?]
Sexual promiscuity was not limited to just top way leadership. I had guys in my twig that were constantly trying to get some way girl into the sack. There were huge arguments about this issue as some of these guys would constantly quote the famous doctrine taught to the 6th corps that it was ok as long as you could "handle it". Well all these guys thought that they could "handle it" just fine.
[Always seems to serve the person putting forth the doctrine- and this doctrine always seems
to trace back to vpw himself teaching it. Doesn't this tell everyone something?
Do we REALLY have people that obtuse that they can't see it?]
The methods of recruitment and of keeping the "faithful" in line were both manipulative and abusive. We were taught these methods and they became institutionalized . We used bible verses deceptively to get people to do what we wanted them to do. We lied to people and we used them. All so that we could appear to be a "growing" ministry ( which really meant more money).
[Meant more people-and the primary purpose of the people was as a revenue source.
So, if people wanted to just show up, and NEVER take a class, sooner or later, some corps grad
or leader would put the squeeze on them, and either get a committment to take a class,
or CHASE THEM OUT ENTIRELY.
This showed that people for their OWN sake didn't matter to twi, only to locals.]
In the process of cult recovery, I think it's important to recognize the fact that we were not only victims, but that many of us were also victimizers. I did my share of manipulating people and I admit it. At the time I thought that I was doing the right thing but in the end, I found out differently.
[Many of us MEANT well, but did the wrong thing ANYWAY. We can accept responsibility for it.]
That's why, when I left twi, I went out of my way, seeking all the people that I had a part in recruiting and talked to each one of them. Thankfully, every person that I ever got to take the class has now left twi and I feel better about that.
[Of course, by twi standards, once they were out of sight, you could have forgotten about
them. That you didn't means you outgrew such standards.]
Both wierwille and martindale were master manipulators and screwed up a lot of people's lives. I'm thankful that I finally recognized the truth and was able to disassociate myself from both being a victim and from being part of a system that caused me to victimize others. It's a two edged sword. The twier who was victimized by some leader quite probably victimized someone else below them in the tree.
[This is similar to the cycle of abuse- children who are abused as children often
grow up to abuse other children when they are adults. This should be easy for most of
us to see by now. Of course, back THEN, it wasn't....]
As reprobate as both wierwille and martindale were, thousands of folks weren't taken advantage of by just two guys. It was a corrupt sytem and we all played a part in it.
[it's shameful, but that makes it no less true. Some of us participated very little,
some of us participated a great deal, but to either degree, we propped up a system
I can't read through this whole thread, I did about four pages. I got involved in TWI in 1975, took the class in Jan 1976 and as early as 1976 I heard the line of "Happy is he in the thing he alloweth" in reference to sex and drugs and I was told by leadership to quit judging people who were doing just that. In 1978 I had some twig leader trying to give me that swill because he wanted a sexual relationship with me and told me in addition to there being no condemnation that two believers having sex was okay but a believer and non believer was like hooking up with a whore of Satan or some crapola like that. I told him to shove it up his yahoo.
We had a branch leader make his way through the females of the branch. I have been oogled and leered at by some of the most popular Revs of TWI and don't tell me I don't know a sexual undressing via the eyes when I see it and that includes being leered at by VPW himself. I had Revs practically sit on my lap when I was in alone in the branch home I lived in and in the early 1980's I was told by a believer that Rev F was telling the males it was okay for a married man to have sex with other females as it was godly and spiritual to have their needs taken care while they were away from their wives. So Oldies, most of the sex was between a married man (or woman) and a single female (or male). How does that fit into your right and wrong perspective? How about a man or woman of God keeps it zipped up tighter than a zip lock freezer bag. Ethics class tells you if it can't go on the front page of a newspaper, it shouldn't be done, the lockbox be dammed.
I was told to dump those who didn't believe or want to believe as their were spiritual hitchhikers (remember that one?) and just living off of our believing. Corps leadership told me that, repeatedly. Don't be unequally yoked with unbelievers, remember that? Not even your own family. TWI was great at condemming family traditions (and you can still see remnants of that teaching over in the open forum where posters warn against having traditions) because TWI wanted NO tradition or family event before a TWI event because it was putting other things before the things of God. TWI twisted the scripture where Jesus condemmed the Pharisees for teaching rules of men as commandments of God and it got twisted by TWI so they could effectively separate us from our own families and if TWI tried to separate us from our own families, (advanced classes at Thanksgiving time, etc) from our own careers it is ONLY a hop skip and a jump to separate us from friends or potential friends. It was all about control. Control over us.
What we seem to forget is that TWI had two ways of teaching us. One was overt teachings that was documented and up front. The other was covert where ideas, issues and thoughts were implanted without us even knowing it, knowing how far it went in ministry teachings and how much it affected us and it is so covert that we end up twenty years later on a message board debating if it really happened or was said or was true.
The paper that John S wrote. I remember that. I also remember the spiritual hype and fear campaign that CG started against anyone reading the paper. He said that John S' paper undermined the whole work of VPW in that it supported the .....drum roll please.............THE TRINITY!!!!!!!!!!! OMG, The Triniity???? What an effective way to keep people from reading the paper by making them afraid of 1. aiding in undermining the great teacher of all times work 2. OMG THE TRINITY (what an effective tool to control people that became) and 3. He said you would get possessed, another effective tool of keeping people in line.
Ethics class tells you if it can't go on the front page of a newspaper, it shouldn't be done, the lockbox be dammed.
What we seem to forget is that TWI had two ways of teaching us. One was overt teachings that was documented and up front. The other was covert where ideas, issues and thoughts were implanted without us even knowing it, knowing how far it went in ministry teachings and how much it affected us and it is so covert that we end up twenty years later on a message board debating if it really happened or was said or was true.
I just love that first line...and I thought that it deserved to be said again.
It is kind of ironic that twi was so insidious that many of us still doubt than many things happened, or question if it was really taught. How did we learn this stuff? How indeed.
After perusing some of these pages, it occurred to me that no wonder I still have a hard time deciding if I should or should not be involved in certain situations because of the control mentality that was fostered in the way. MYOB is still a tough one at times and today I was praying for WISDOM to know the difference.
We all played a part in continuing the control games regardless of whether we fell into the sex land mines or not...and they were certainly always there for the taking or being taken. Loved the thread about overt and covert teaching. Bravo! Great stuff!
Thanks for bringing this thread to the present......it's the first time I've read thru it.
So much has been covered in this thread...as is noted:
True. No one said the PFAL teaching was an explicit endorsement of adultery. The PFAL teaching failed to adequately condemn the adultery. That's been said.
There was an absence of sound teaching on matters of sex, particularly adultery, in TWI. That's been said. Someone got fired just for saying adultery was wrong in every administration. That's been said.
People TWISTED the Bible and the PFAL passage in question in order to justify their misbehavior and adultery. That's been said.
BUT.......why does this adultery issue ONLY have to be covered in pfal?
When wierwille taught pfal, he was like 51 years old......and seasoned in arrogance and lusts.
Wierwille failed to herald sound doctrine on adultery on SNS teachings..........
Wierwille failed to take a strong stand on adultery with corps in such "co-ed" living conditions.........
Wierwille sent WOWs on the field with very little screening and preparation to live together and handle the myriad of situations that arise in the real issues of practical living.
Why didn't the "mog -- with his spiritual oversight" SEE the hurt/destruction from NOT teaching this?.....
Why didn't the "mog" teach, in detail, from the Scriptures areas regarding temptation, or personal boundaries, or sexual sins, or abusive behavior......or have veteran leadership to handle accusations or grievances??
Again.....and again.....and again.....threads like this vividly illustrate how inept and debased twi was to really help people.......let alone, lead them to spiritual victorious living.
Thanks for bringing this thread to the present......it's the first time I've read thru it.
So much has been covered in this thread...as is noted:
BUT.......why does this adultery issue ONLY have to be covered in pfal?
When wierwille taught pfal, he was like 51 years old......and seasoned in arrogance and lusts.
Wierwille failed to herald sound doctrine on adultery on SNS teachings..........
Wierwille failed to take a strong stand on adultery with corps in such "co-ed" living conditions.........
Wierwille sent WOWs on the field with very little screening and preparation to live together and handle the myriad of situations that arise in the real issues of practical living.
Why didn't the "mog -- with his spiritual oversight" SEE the hurt/destruction from NOT teaching this?.....
Why didn't the "mog" teach, in detail, from the Scriptures areas regarding temptation, or personal boundaries, or sexual sins, or abusive behavior......or have veteran leadership to handle accusations or grievances??
Again.....and again.....and again.....threads like this vividly illustrate how inept and debased twi was to really help people.......let alone, lead them to spiritual victorious living.
<_<
wow pimpin aint easy ... can one make alot of money pimpin out church members?
I can't read through this whole thread, I did about four pages. I got involved in TWI in 1975, took the class in Jan 1976 and as early as 1976 I heard the line of "Happy is he in the thing he alloweth" in reference to sex and drugs and I was told by leadership to quit judging people who were doing just that. In 1978 I had some twig leader trying to give me that swill because he wanted a sexual relationship with me and told me in addition to there being no condemnation that two believers having sex was okay but a believer and non believer was like hooking up with a whore of Satan or some crapola like that. I told him to shove it up his yahoo.
Outstanding!!!
We had a branch leader make his way through the females of the branch. I have been oogled and leered at by some of the most popular Revs of TWI and don't tell me I don't know a sexual undressing via the eyes when I see it and that includes being leered at by VPW himself. I had Revs practically sit on my lap when I was in alone in the branch home I lived in and in the early 1980's I was told by a believer that Rev F was telling the males it was okay for a married man to have sex with other females as it was godly and spiritual to have their needs taken care while they were away from their wives. So Oldies, most of the sex was between a married man (or woman) and a single female (or male). How does that fit into your right and wrong perspective? How about a man or woman of God keeps it zipped up tighter than a zip lock freezer bag. Ethics class tells you if it can't go on the front page of a newspaper, it shouldn't be done, the lockbox be dammed.
What a bunch of scumbags. How about a man or woman who minister be married and enjoy their marriage without needing outside relationships? Kind of like the Bible teaches?
I was told to dump those who didn't believe or want to believe as their were spiritual hitchhikers (remember that one?) and just living off of our believing. Corps leadership told me that, repeatedly. Don't be unequally yoked with unbelievers, remember that? Not even your own family. TWI was great at condemming family traditions (and you can still see remnants of that teaching over in the open forum where posters warn against having traditions) because TWI wanted NO tradition or family event before a TWI event because it was putting other things before the things of God. TWI twisted the scripture where Jesus condemmed the Pharisees for teaching rules of men as commandments of God and it got twisted by TWI so they could effectively separate us from our own families and if TWI tried to separate us from our own families, (advanced classes at Thanksgiving time, etc) from our own careers it is ONLY a hop skip and a jump to separate us from friends or potential friends. It was all about control. Control over us.
Control was a major underlying theme through a lot of the behavior and teachings.
What we seem to forget is that TWI had two ways of teaching us. One was overt teachings that was documented and up front. The other was covert where ideas, issues and thoughts were implanted without us even knowing it, knowing how far it went in ministry teachings and how much it affected us and it is so covert that we end up twenty years later on a message board debating if it really happened or was said or was true.
Amen, sister.
The paper that John S wrote. I remember that. I also remember the spiritual hype and fear campaign that CG started against anyone reading the paper. He said that John S' paper undermined the whole work of VPW in that it supported the .....drum roll please.............THE TRINITY!!!!!!!!!!! OMG, The Triniity???? What an effective way to keep people from reading the paper by making them afraid of 1. aiding in undermining the great teacher of all times work 2. OMG THE TRINITY (what an effective tool to control people that became) and 3. He said you would get possessed, another effective tool of keeping people in line.
A fitting end that John S after being abused helped found another group that he still leads.
And I hope with all the garbage you had to put up with that God seeing your real beauty gave you someone to take care of you and not use you.
I was told to dump those who didn't believe or want to believe as their were spiritual hitchhikers (remember that one?)
I remember that one really well! starting in wow training and just escalating for years. I think they started backing off on that one after lcm got the boot, but there was never any public retraction of the doctrine that I was aware of.
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TheInvisibleDan
Well God may not have had a reason in particular, but the writers and subsequent editors of this material certainly must have had their reasons, i.e., to water down the more heretical ideas not in harmony with their own.
A common opinion regarded for the occassion of writing "Laodiceans" is that such a letter is mentioned at the end of Colossians as having been sent to them.
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washingtonweather
Imbus-you made a really interesting comment about the presence of conflict flushing out the real issues. I thought that was insightful....It would be boring if we all agreed, and I thinking facing people sometimes helps me to really solidify what I am thinking and feeling internally....sometimes it helps me find the words or see the position I have taken objectively and then I still agree with myself or sometimes change, but it does help ---sometimes. But still keep your guard up from the scab pickers of the world.
;)-->
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imbus
OM, I believe you received some form of egotisical, arregant joy out of this thread at my expense. What you have non-verbally done is interagated the issue inappropratly so that if other females were to speak their truth, it would be met with your meanspirited scruteny.(parden the spelling) BY your words I felt my soul was being raped and I believe that was your intent. To humiliate.
I'v been in the mental health feild for over ten years and I know when a personal agenda is being masked. IMO your distaste for females rings loud and clear even if you do cloke it with the Bible. Most fundementalist do.
So IMO your input wasn't really about adultry but more about degrading a female in the name of God. I can own my actions of adultry. Can you own for yourself what appears to be bitterness and hate twards women? And your attacks twards women who are apart of the Body of Christ?
If this is loving your neibor as yourself then you most really loth some aspects of your being. I am really sad for you brother. I am sorry that, whatever you have suffered in life...it has brought you to this place of being. I'm sorry.
I do not accept your apology if it was to patrenize me or others. I do accept it if.... you really mean it even if it is half hearted.
Imbus
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jackmm
Imbus,
I've read this thread and watched the mudslinging. You have my respect. You are one classy lady.
Jack
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imbus
My whole point in sharing my experiance was how did I get to this mind set that having sex with a married man was o.k? I for one do not get a thrill out of oral sex. And by the way it was a one way street. I gave and did not recieve.
With that having been said, if you knew me prior to the WAY CORPs this would be out of character. So there were many factors that led to my actions. Factors that have some roots in PFAL. (That has been covered in this thread.) Sometimes what has not been said speaks louder than what has been said. What was not been addressed in PFAL was adultry but murder. And again IMO set a precident, to open the door to the "if you can handle it" crap. I feel I was set up "Brainwashed" with years of indoctrination to come to this mind set.(How many times do you take PFAL? How Many times did you run a class? Where we not guided into mastering PFAL?)
Lots of non-verbals from men and women both! Women who by example took a back seat to abusive male dominance in there marrages and relationship to men in general. Mrs.V.P is a good example of such a relationship. I think How@rd All@n should have been V.Ps wife with all the attention he received. Dorthia W. did not deserve what was delt to her while she was married to V.P. And all the stuff that has surfaced since his death...how humilating.
So having not a strong female role model in my life I took my Qs from TWI women and men. Shame on me.
Well that is all I have to say about that.
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excathedra
you are a dear, dear imbus
wierwille geer others.... masters of.... raping a soul....
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dougie73
imbus got around here late but thank you for that insight and dam I took my q's from some of these so called wonderful leaders too and not all but seems I too with some leaders that put their egos on a much higher platter at other's expense of not really offering up nurture and I guess to the ones on here that make idiotic jokes or comments haven't a clue so I just color them thick as a brick and yeah maybe some day they will get it !
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Belle
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Captain Spiritural
This is priceless again you unfolded alot of spiritual pimpin going on, but hey nothing new under da sun. PEACE bro
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WordWolf
[Well, since this was brought up, I'd like to look it over.
My comments in boldface. of course.]
Thanks for bringing this post back!
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Really Mandii
I can't read through this whole thread, I did about four pages. I got involved in TWI in 1975, took the class in Jan 1976 and as early as 1976 I heard the line of "Happy is he in the thing he alloweth" in reference to sex and drugs and I was told by leadership to quit judging people who were doing just that. In 1978 I had some twig leader trying to give me that swill because he wanted a sexual relationship with me and told me in addition to there being no condemnation that two believers having sex was okay but a believer and non believer was like hooking up with a whore of Satan or some crapola like that. I told him to shove it up his yahoo.
We had a branch leader make his way through the females of the branch. I have been oogled and leered at by some of the most popular Revs of TWI and don't tell me I don't know a sexual undressing via the eyes when I see it and that includes being leered at by VPW himself. I had Revs practically sit on my lap when I was in alone in the branch home I lived in and in the early 1980's I was told by a believer that Rev F was telling the males it was okay for a married man to have sex with other females as it was godly and spiritual to have their needs taken care while they were away from their wives. So Oldies, most of the sex was between a married man (or woman) and a single female (or male). How does that fit into your right and wrong perspective? How about a man or woman of God keeps it zipped up tighter than a zip lock freezer bag. Ethics class tells you if it can't go on the front page of a newspaper, it shouldn't be done, the lockbox be dammed.
I was told to dump those who didn't believe or want to believe as their were spiritual hitchhikers (remember that one?) and just living off of our believing. Corps leadership told me that, repeatedly. Don't be unequally yoked with unbelievers, remember that? Not even your own family. TWI was great at condemming family traditions (and you can still see remnants of that teaching over in the open forum where posters warn against having traditions) because TWI wanted NO tradition or family event before a TWI event because it was putting other things before the things of God. TWI twisted the scripture where Jesus condemmed the Pharisees for teaching rules of men as commandments of God and it got twisted by TWI so they could effectively separate us from our own families and if TWI tried to separate us from our own families, (advanced classes at Thanksgiving time, etc) from our own careers it is ONLY a hop skip and a jump to separate us from friends or potential friends. It was all about control. Control over us.
What we seem to forget is that TWI had two ways of teaching us. One was overt teachings that was documented and up front. The other was covert where ideas, issues and thoughts were implanted without us even knowing it, knowing how far it went in ministry teachings and how much it affected us and it is so covert that we end up twenty years later on a message board debating if it really happened or was said or was true.
The paper that John S wrote. I remember that. I also remember the spiritual hype and fear campaign that CG started against anyone reading the paper. He said that John S' paper undermined the whole work of VPW in that it supported the .....drum roll please.............THE TRINITY!!!!!!!!!!! OMG, The Triniity???? What an effective way to keep people from reading the paper by making them afraid of 1. aiding in undermining the great teacher of all times work 2. OMG THE TRINITY (what an effective tool to control people that became) and 3. He said you would get possessed, another effective tool of keeping people in line.
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Eyesopen
I just love that first line...and I thought that it deserved to be said again.
It is kind of ironic that twi was so insidious that many of us still doubt than many things happened, or question if it was really taught. How did we learn this stuff? How indeed.
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waterbuffalo
After perusing some of these pages, it occurred to me that no wonder I still have a hard time deciding if I should or should not be involved in certain situations because of the control mentality that was fostered in the way. MYOB is still a tough one at times and today I was praying for WISDOM to know the difference.
We all played a part in continuing the control games regardless of whether we fell into the sex land mines or not...and they were certainly always there for the taking or being taken. Loved the thread about overt and covert teaching. Bravo! Great stuff!
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skyrider
Thanks for bringing this thread to the present......it's the first time I've read thru it.
So much has been covered in this thread...as is noted:
BUT.......why does this adultery issue ONLY have to be covered in pfal?
When wierwille taught pfal, he was like 51 years old......and seasoned in arrogance and lusts.
Wierwille failed to herald sound doctrine on adultery on SNS teachings..........
Wierwille failed to take a strong stand on adultery with corps in such "co-ed" living conditions.........
Wierwille sent WOWs on the field with very little screening and preparation to live together and handle the myriad of situations that arise in the real issues of practical living.
Why didn't the "mog -- with his spiritual oversight" SEE the hurt/destruction from NOT teaching this?.....
Why didn't the "mog" teach, in detail, from the Scriptures areas regarding temptation, or personal boundaries, or sexual sins, or abusive behavior......or have veteran leadership to handle accusations or grievances??
Again.....and again.....and again.....threads like this vividly illustrate how inept and debased twi was to really help people.......let alone, lead them to spiritual victorious living.
<_<
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Captain Spiritural
wow pimpin aint easy ... can one make alot of money pimpin out church members?
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chockfull
Outstanding!!!
What a bunch of scumbags. How about a man or woman who minister be married and enjoy their marriage without needing outside relationships? Kind of like the Bible teaches?Control was a major underlying theme through a lot of the behavior and teachings.
Amen, sister.A fitting end that John S after being abused helped found another group that he still leads.
And I hope with all the garbage you had to put up with that God seeing your real beauty gave you someone to take care of you and not use you.
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potato
I remember that one really well! starting in wow training and just escalating for years. I think they started backing off on that one after lcm got the boot, but there was never any public retraction of the doctrine that I was aware of.
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Danny
Great Tread
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