Like all things Martindalean, the "no debt" ruling was not very well thought through. Most things in the bible are there for a reason. God didn't just come up with random rules to make people jump through hoops for his amusement. In the Old Testament there are guidelines for borrowing...if it was evil, why the guidelines?
Then there's the verse in Proverbs about the borrower being servant (or slave says Martindale) to the lender. IMHO the reason God frowned on debt in some situations was that possibility of being literally enslaved to the lender, like the woman in Kings (?) whose husband died before paying off his creditors, and the creditors wanted the woman's sons as payment.
I rent right now. I, in effect, "borrow" my apartment in exchange for a fee, rent. Am I any less a servant or slave to my landlord than someone who is buying his home by way of a mortgage loan? No way!
What about car loans? How many of us drove "WOWmobiles" to avoid debt, and ended up spending more on rtepairs than we ever would have on interest payments?
So in exchange for not being servants to lenders, we became servants to our landlords and our mechanics.
quote: So in exchange for not being servants to lenders, we became servants to our landlords and our mechanics.
Oak -- great point! :)-->
I own my house, and my truck, but would not hesitate to "go into debt" should either need to be fixed, if I did not have the "means".
Actually, I did that last August. I borrowed money for a new furnace for my house, since my old one "gave up the ghost". So now I have a "payment", but big deal. This last winter, I was warm.
It was clearly the policy at one time for individuals to think through for themselves, without regulation, what was worth being in debt for and what was not. The flow of words in the document show that their was a win win situation for a mortgage borrower and the lender.
And as WordWolf clearly states, Present truth means being present as in a roll call. Truth is eternal and does not change, otherwise we would be stuck with the doctrine of the day.
As soon as we left TWI we financed a new vehicle. It was a must.
When you have to pay cash for your vehicle, you can't afford a 4wheel drive truck in Alaska, even used. Vehicle are very expensive here.
So you drive a sedan that is forever stuck in the snow even with good tires, you high center, then you don't make it to your LCs house or twig or latter HFC on time.
.. so you get yelled at for your crappy car while you, your spouse and kids are soaking wet and freezing from being out in the cold.
I now own a 4WD truck that sits up high so this no longer happens. :)--> It was a need!!
This is a slight derailment, but only slight, so I won't go to h#ll, just purgatory :P-->
Talking about cars. We were about six months from paying off a car loan when the "no debt" ruling came down. We were fellowship coordinators and were allowed to continue to run it since we were so close to being out of debt.
The problem was the car, even though it was in good shape, was not large enough for my family (6 kids) so we decided that we would get a second car. The plan was to get a big station wagon for $500 at the local car lot and save up to buy a decent car in about a year.
This car was the butt-ugliest car you ever saw! But we weren't in debt! We figured that we were "doing the Word", staying out of debt, stewarding our money, yada, yada, yada. But the branch and state leadership started bugging us to fix up the car. Our plan was to spend as little as possible on the ol' bomb, so that we would have enough to buy a newer one as quickly as possible. They wanted us to paint it (it had fake wood sides and LOTS of rust). Then they started bugging me to at least put hub caps on it.
So I took two hubcaps off my other car and put them on the passenger side of the car so that he would see them when I parked in front of his house.
quote: Yeah, dmiller, you sure didn't want to be a slave to the winter cold!
Brrr,
Shaz
Shaz -- absolutely! Actually, there was a hang-up that occurred, and I had no heat until November 1st. :(-->
That may not be a big deal to others, in warmer climes, but when I came home from work, and it was 45 degrees in the house, I did not even want to stay here.
Getting a loan for the furnace was a top priority, and to h*ll with what might be promoted as far as "no loans"!
I'd have loved to see RR and the BOT here in my house (with no extra cash), and putting up with those temps. :D-->
Gawd, I hate to count that high, but it was a wife, two children, a half a dozen or so flights to Japan and a couple of H.S. educations ago, and now looking down the barrel of a college education 'er two (yikes!).
I make it as what, TWENTY YEARS?(!) Say it isn't so...
Oh, and I'd have loved to put in a heating system for ya. I remember doing a couple of hot water systems while in Duluth, they were actually kinda fun to do - maybe because they were a change of pace - but I enjoyed doing both of them...
quote: I make it as what, TWENTY YEARS?(!) Say it isn't so...
Geo -- yup, right around there. :(-->
You were making week-end trips to LaCrosse at the time to see Suz, so it was before you two got married.
I remember one time Suz came here to attend Steve and Jeannie McCraken's (sp?) wedding that my Bluegrass group picked for at the reception. And it was right around that time the skylight went in.
quote: It was clearly the policy at one time for individuals to think through for themselves, without regulation, what was worth being in debt for and what was not.
Tumbleweed -- exactly! I'm wondering how they (twi) can dictate to us, reguarding being in debt. Perhaps if they required less abs, folks would have more to spend, and not have to borrow.
If a person can't borrow for what he/she deems fit for their life because of "spiritual rules", then twi has NO right to complain about things, like Oak's car, as an example.
Sounds like they have dished out a Catch-22, and a lot of people bought it. (no pun intended) :P-->
I don't recall any verses stating that anyone has a right to know what you do with your money or, much less, tell you how to spend it.
Who the he** are they to tell us what we can and can not do? And what schmucks are we to let them? Geez... I get soo peeved thinking about how much power I gave them over my life.
Of course LCM went beyond TITHE with Adv. Grads and from about 1995 until at least I left in 1997, we were required to give 15% or better ...
We were told being Adv. Grads we were at the point in our spiritual walk we could only get blessed if we were Abundantly Sharing, not giving the mere tithe.
Of course we were confronted and sold our Stock and abundantly shared it ... argh
ABS (Abundant Sharing) in craiggers time was a front line offensive move for him IMO .... probably because this is the period of time that the way corps were all on TWI payroll.
My husband and I were just talking about the last Adv. Special we took. It was on the field in the Spring of 97, held over several weekends. In this video class craiggers writes down 15% is ABS for us to be blessed. Actualy said it should be 20% and started to write down 20 on his white board and then crossed it out and left the 15% up on the board.
I think earlier in the thread someone said
..... Follow the Money .......
Isn't that where we will also find the evil in this case.
"Does anyone know how much housing cost have risen since the great revelation to not buy a house and sell the one you have if you have a mortgage was declared? "
I bought a house about a year before the "no debt" policy was delcared for about $40,000.00. Like a good little wayfer I sold it a year later.
I saw an appraisal on the house next to mine a few months back and based on that, I'm guessing my $40,000 house would now be worth somewhere between $80,000 - $100,000.
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Oakspear
Like all things Martindalean, the "no debt" ruling was not very well thought through. Most things in the bible are there for a reason. God didn't just come up with random rules to make people jump through hoops for his amusement. In the Old Testament there are guidelines for borrowing...if it was evil, why the guidelines?
Then there's the verse in Proverbs about the borrower being servant (or slave says Martindale) to the lender. IMHO the reason God frowned on debt in some situations was that possibility of being literally enslaved to the lender, like the woman in Kings (?) whose husband died before paying off his creditors, and the creditors wanted the woman's sons as payment.
I rent right now. I, in effect, "borrow" my apartment in exchange for a fee, rent. Am I any less a servant or slave to my landlord than someone who is buying his home by way of a mortgage loan? No way!
What about car loans? How many of us drove "WOWmobiles" to avoid debt, and ended up spending more on rtepairs than we ever would have on interest payments?
So in exchange for not being servants to lenders, we became servants to our landlords and our mechanics.
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dmiller
Oak -- great point!
:)-->
I own my house, and my truck, but would not hesitate to "go into debt" should either need to be fixed, if I did not have the "means".
Actually, I did that last August. I borrowed money for a new furnace for my house, since my old one "gave up the ghost". So now I have a "payment", but big deal. This last winter, I was warm.
And to me -- that was what counted.
:)-->
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WordWolf
The entire "old wineskin/present truth" thing was an lcm fiction.
The truth is PRESENT like people are present in a roll-call.
The truth is HERE-THAT'S what's meant by the "present truth"-the truth that's
here. We don't have to wait for the truth, it's here!
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TheManOfa Thousand ScreenNames
Seems to me, the 'present truth' is whatever makes the "bottom line" of WayCorp go up.
For example, if you rent, you have more money available to send to HQ at the end of the month than if you buy a house. The same with buying a car.
Generally, if you want to find someone's motivation, follow the money flow.
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Tumbleweed Kid
It was clearly the policy at one time for individuals to think through for themselves, without regulation, what was worth being in debt for and what was not. The flow of words in the document show that their was a win win situation for a mortgage borrower and the lender.
And as WordWolf clearly states, Present truth means being present as in a roll call. Truth is eternal and does not change, otherwise we would be stuck with the doctrine of the day.
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shazdancer
Yeah, dmiller, you sure didn't want to be a slave to the winter cold!
Brrr,
Shaz
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George Aar
Yes, Shaz,
And might I add, being from the "nortland, der", Mr. Miller knows of where he speaks when he's talking about "cold".
The rest of the world may get a little chilly, but northern Minnesota gets COLD!.
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Digitalis
I can really relate to Dmiller in this case.
As soon as we left TWI we financed a new vehicle. It was a must.
When you have to pay cash for your vehicle, you can't afford a 4wheel drive truck in Alaska, even used. Vehicle are very expensive here.
So you drive a sedan that is forever stuck in the snow even with good tires, you high center, then you don't make it to your LCs house or twig or latter HFC on time.
.. so you get yelled at for your crappy car while you, your spouse and kids are soaking wet and freezing from being out in the cold.
I now own a 4WD truck that sits up high so this no longer happens.
:)--> It was a need!!
Digi
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Oakspear
This is a slight derailment, but only slight, so I won't go to h#ll, just purgatory
:P-->
Talking about cars. We were about six months from paying off a car loan when the "no debt" ruling came down. We were fellowship coordinators and were allowed to continue to run it since we were so close to being out of debt.
The problem was the car, even though it was in good shape, was not large enough for my family (6 kids) so we decided that we would get a second car. The plan was to get a big station wagon for $500 at the local car lot and save up to buy a decent car in about a year.
This car was the butt-ugliest car you ever saw! But we weren't in debt! We figured that we were "doing the Word", staying out of debt, stewarding our money, yada, yada, yada. But the branch and state leadership started bugging us to fix up the car. Our plan was to spend as little as possible on the ol' bomb, so that we would have enough to buy a newer one as quickly as possible. They wanted us to paint it (it had fake wood sides and LOTS of rust). Then they started bugging me to at least put hub caps on it.
So I took two hubcaps off my other car and put them on the passenger side of the car so that he would see them when I parked in front of his house.
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Digitalis
Oakspear ..... ROFLMAO
I have an inquiring mind here ...... you noted on the Weanie Roast thread you might be able to carpool with believers from the west or north ..
.. would we be riding in the rusted station wagon with two good wheels if we worked anything out? Just curious if we wouls make it or not?
Still laughing
Digi
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dmiller
Shaz -- absolutely! Actually, there was a hang-up that occurred, and I had no heat until November 1st.
:(-->
That may not be a big deal to others, in warmer climes, but when I came home from work, and it was 45 degrees in the house, I did not even want to stay here.
Getting a loan for the furnace was a top priority, and to h*ll with what might be promoted as far as "no loans"!
I'd have loved to see RR and the BOT here in my house (with no extra cash), and putting up with those temps.
:D-->
Bet they would have done something about it!
-->
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dmiller
Digi -- am looking at "raising" my truck too.
:)-->
and yes -- it is a need!
:D-->
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dmiller
Geo -- d*mn!! Wish you were in the area when I needed the work done.
;)-->
You could have put in the furnace just as nicely as you did the skylight in the upstairs bedroom!
(How many years ago was that!!!)
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George Aar
dmiller,
Re:"(How many years ago was that!!!)"
Gawd, I hate to count that high, but it was a wife, two children, a half a dozen or so flights to Japan and a couple of H.S. educations ago, and now looking down the barrel of a college education 'er two (yikes!).
I make it as what, TWENTY YEARS?(!) Say it isn't so...
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George Aar
Oh, and I'd have loved to put in a heating system for ya. I remember doing a couple of hot water systems while in Duluth, they were actually kinda fun to do - maybe because they were a change of pace - but I enjoyed doing both of them...
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dmiller
Geo -- yup, right around there.
:(-->
You were making week-end trips to LaCrosse at the time to see Suz, so it was before you two got married.
I remember one time Suz came here to attend Steve and Jeannie McCraken's (sp?) wedding that my Bluegrass group picked for at the reception. And it was right around that time the skylight went in.
Gawd -- where did the time go???
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George Aar
"where did the time go??? "
Indeed, my little girl, who I just took to her first day in Kindergarten LAST WEEK, is graduating from High School on June 6th!
O.K., I guess this is no longer a derailment, it's a whole 'nother thread. Sorry...
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dmiller
OK -- Time to get "back on track"
:)-->
Tumbleweed -- exactly! I'm wondering how they (twi) can dictate to us, reguarding being in debt. Perhaps if they required less abs, folks would have more to spend, and not have to borrow.
If a person can't borrow for what he/she deems fit for their life because of "spiritual rules", then twi has NO right to complain about things, like Oak's car, as an example.
Sounds like they have dished out a Catch-22, and a lot of people bought it. (no pun intended)
:P-->
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WaywardWayfer
I don't recall any verses stating that anyone has a right to know what you do with your money or, much less, tell you how to spend it.
Who the he** are they to tell us what we can and can not do? And what schmucks are we to let them? Geez...
I get soo peeved thinking about how much power I gave them over my life.
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dmiller
Wayward -- Amen, and Amen. to all you said.
:(-->
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Digitalis
Wayward ...... I am with you, I get peeved to.
We had Stock .. Well Stock is income that should
be tithed according to some leaders in TWI.
Of course LCM went beyond TITHE with Adv. Grads and from about 1995 until at least I left in 1997, we were required to give 15% or better ...
We were told being Adv. Grads we were at the point in our spiritual walk we could only get blessed if we were Abundantly Sharing, not giving the mere tithe.
Of course we were confronted and sold our Stock and abundantly shared it ... argh
ABS (Abundant Sharing) in craiggers time was a front line offensive move for him IMO .... probably because this is the period of time that the way corps were all on TWI payroll.
My husband and I were just talking about the last Adv. Special we took. It was on the field in the Spring of 97, held over several weekends. In this video class craiggers writes down 15% is ABS for us to be blessed. Actualy said it should be 20% and started to write down 20 on his white board and then crossed it out and left the 15% up on the board.
I think earlier in the thread someone said
..... Follow the Money .......
Isn't that where we will also find the evil in this case.
Digi
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Abigail
"Does anyone know how much housing cost have risen since the great revelation to not buy a house and sell the one you have if you have a mortgage was declared? "
I bought a house about a year before the "no debt" policy was delcared for about $40,000.00. Like a good little wayfer I sold it a year later.
I saw an appraisal on the house next to mine a few months back and based on that, I'm guessing my $40,000 house would now be worth somewhere between $80,000 - $100,000.
Yup, I'm still kicking myself.
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excathedra
good morning, abi
don't kick yourself too hard
hugs
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Digitalis
Abigal ...... I don't have the nerve right now to inflict any additional pain upon myself.
So as long as you are doing the kicking .... I might as well turn around and let you kick me too ......
If you would do the honors LOL
Can you make it a double!! LOL
Digi
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