quote:I don't expect the Wierwille and PFAL fans to let up. Actually, I find that the opposing (i.e. pro-Wierwille) point of view helps keep us sharp, helps us to better and more eloquently phrase our arguments.
Is it arguable then that the "positive" side of TWI, Wierwille, PFAL, etc is not being presented?
>>
The positive side of TWI has been presented
for decades mostly by leaders wanting you to believe that TWI was the one stop shop for truth. They had their shot at walking the talk
but they have failed miserably. They have had
their say and the trouble is that they don't
(then or now) want anyone to dispute it.
Another way to think about it is that the negative aspects of TWI have been suppressed for decades and this forum is evidence of what happens when people have had enough.
Besides - TWI doesn't want to participate here. They could if they wanted to - there is absolutely nothing stopping them from doing so.
Of course they lurk to take notes on people
but thats a passive (Some say cowardly) form
of participation and they have absolutely no
right to complain about Gspot. At any time they
can represent their points of view. the ball is very much in their court.
If what I write here convinces ONE person to stay away from TWI, then I consider it worth the effort.
That's one of the reason's I'm still around. But I've come to think that those who are still in TWI at this stage are in because: a.) They want to be there or b.) They have a loved one or family member who is still in and stay for them.
But there are always the people who are just now hearing about TWI, who "google" them and find the Cafe as well as other ex-follower web sites. If the information here can help them make an informed decision, then I'm glad to share my experiences with them.
I've settled much of my personal score with TWI. I can't get back the years - I can't undo what has been done - can't unring the bell. All I can do is get on with my life and consider TWI a long, tedious interruption. Sort of like a 30 year jail sentence in a minimum security prison.
Oh, there are a couple of people who still deserve a piece of my mind, and I hope someday I'll be able to give one to them! But I don't think I harbor the bitterness I had after I left almost 4 year ago.
Do I have good things to say? Only about the many wonderful people I met through my involvement in TWI who I never would have known otherwise. Some of my experiences can be fondly remembered because of them, not because of an organization, or the people who ran it.
My hindsight is 20/20 now, and I'll never wear my TWI rose-colored glasses again.
Because...
quote: Galatians 5:9: A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
why did it take some of you so long to leave? knowing what the word of god says, and seeing what was happening for so long, why would someone stay?
we all know what the bible says about sex out of marraige and premarital sex, it said the same thing when we joined that it says today. one of the biggest things I was told in TWI was to look it up for yourself. it wasen't just the sex, but the bully type people that ran it. how is it that knowing they were wrong, some stayed anyway trying to make the best of it?
I don't dislike anyone here and wouldn't ever tell anyone not to post here, but look back at your time in TWI and ask yourself why you stayed and why didn't you confront anyone there.
Papajohn--I did leave and with my family intact. And the idea that just because people did not leave right away does not mean they did not confront any of the "evil doers" our very own TWI Sadducees and Pharisees. There are other issues besides taking the "holy" stand...like family and so forth...maybe your employer is TWI...and you have squat to get out with..so you stay and try t figure out some kind of a plan ---Im just saying there are many scenarios to play out in this big mess called TWI.
Oakspear: I was just thinking the last couple days about this. One of the last conclusions reached in Karl K's book is that, to him, there was never a time when you could say "I do not believe!" in TWI. Not appropriate. Sends 'red flags' all over the place.
Similarly (but not identically), there is never, or rarely a time on GSC when it's OK to praise VPW or PFAL. And it's not collusion: there is no "inner circle" of GSC which communicates secretly and strategizes how to deal with 'problem posters'. It's all pretty much out in the open; people just post as inspired. Yet, if you do praise VPW and PFAL, better wear asbestos underwear.
I go to a fellowship here in STL which is connected to roughly 60 adults, many of whom are ex TWI. I can speak positively of VPW and PFAL without incident with those people.
In lieu of the above, I guess it's not unreasonable for a website such as this to have an unwritten policy of..."just don't use those words around me!"
I get teed off when posters imply that I am evil or screwed up just because I still value some things from TWI, and I think some trigger happy people drive off new GSers, but...
quote:My point is that Grease Spot IS the equal time, balancing out what TWI presents.
Why is it that this is so tough to understand?
Why do some insist that what goes on here is a 24/7 hate-fest? Why do some insist that abuses that happened didn't really happen, or are minor compared to the "good"?
Personally, there was plenty of good, many positive things that took place during my years in TWI. I met lots of good people and had good times. The "keys" in PFAL helped me to understand the bible and make my own decisions. Getting involved in TWI when I did possibly diverted me from problems with drugs and alcohol.
So why do I not focus on the good times, the godly aspects of TWI, the "positive"?
Because I'm not here to talk anybody into affiliating with or getting involved with TWI. If someone wants to hook up with TWI they'll hear enough reasons to do so from active wayfers. For me, the bad outweighed the good in TWI. If what I write here convinces ONE person to stay away from TWI, then I consider it worth the effort.
In responce to "why did you stay so long and why didn't you confront with the truth?"
I did confront my Corps cordinator. I said," I did not see in the BiBle or in the life of Christ ministry abusive handleing of conflict. At the time POP was out and "rouge" research papers were popping up everywhere. The Corps who read and spoke candidly of these issues were heavily repromanded or dismissed from the Corps. I was told I was spiritually immature and did not see the scope of the word concernig these issues. "BULLSHIP"
When I graduated the Corps, I asked my Area cordinator,"How the Bible can contradict itself concerning abortion?" He said if I had to ask a Question like that, then I should not be active Corps or in a leadership position.
After that I never sought out TWI fellowship. I posed the questions in all honesty and was made to fell there was something wrong with me for asking.
So this girl did ask questions and left.
Some leave sooner, some leave later. You just never know what is in the heart of an individual, or why people do what they do. But praise God we'er here and are on the rebound and/or choosing to take a different journey.
quote:I go to a fellowship here in STL which is connected to roughly 60 adults, many of whom are ex TWI. I can speak positively of VPW and PFAL without incident with those people.
Do any of those people ever speak any negatives about veepee and TWI? (just wondering)...
quote:Similarly (but not identically), there is never, or rarely a time on GSC when it's OK to praise VPW or PFAL...Yet, if you do praise VPW and PFAL, better wear asbestos underwear.
You're right, Johniam, to an extent. The overall mood is that Wierwille & PFAL defenders get nuked here.
I believe that this goes back to one of the points that I made in my initial post, that there are plenty of places to get "positives" about VP & PFAL. This is the "equal time".
quote:I go to a fellowship here in STL...I can speak positively of VPW and PFAL without incident with those people.
What is the purpose of this fellowship? I'm sure that it's different than the purpose of GS.
It has been my observation that praise of VP or PFAL usually comes as a rebuttal of sorts to someone's bringing up a criticism. The general perception when that occurs is that the critic's veracity is being questioned or that the "evil" being discussed is downplayed. Yeah, folks will get a mite peeved when that happens!
Another issue is that since we generally don't really know each other, we make pre-judgements based on what we have seen posted. Some posters get pigeon-holed and can't say anything without getting slammed. Of course, some posters richly deserve their reputation!
quote: Do any of those people ever speak any negatives about veepee and TWI? (just wondering)...
TWI, but not VP. STL believers all left at once in '89. Richard Thomas was the area cordo and he had it out with LCM and HA and that loyalty oath letter was the last straw for them.
Then 2 yrs later some of the fellowships parted ways with RT, joining with John Hendricks. These are the people I fellowship with. JH has been open that "the things people are saying about VPW are true". He doesn't say that a lot, but a lot of his people are ex TWI so he has to address it and his foundational class is very similar to PFAL.
RT still heads up the CG faction here. Those guys generally don't want to talk about VPW OR TWI.
Oakspear:
quote:What is the purpose of this fellowship? I'm sure that it's different than the purpose of GS
Yeah, I mentioned the fellowship to support that I don't have to come on GSC to talk about VP or PFAL.
I left twi 17 years ago, after being involved for 13 years. For me, the twi experience is far removed from my life. It has been for a long time. Is there a residual effect after all this time? Probably so...24-37 are important years in a persons life and I was deeply involved. The con that I swallowed has cost me...
With that said, I agree 100% with Oakspear. This IS the opprotunity for people to hear the OTHER side of the story. I feel a certain obligation ( remember that old poem, "The bridge builder"?)...to reach back for those who follow:
Why, old ex-cult member, are you building a bridge here...your journey's almost over and never again will you pass this chasm...why?
The old ex-cult member raised his graying head and smiled and said...It's true that I am passed this chasm of corruption, this insideous little cornfield cult, this deceitful snake pit full of sexual predators and destroyers of lives...never again will I pass this way. Then, with a wink in his eye and a skip in his step, he said...
Getting out of this mind control cult was no problem for me, but for the fair haired youth who follows this path...it may, a pitfall be...No, I'm not here at Greasespot for my benefit, my friend, but to call bull.... on the fakers and abusers, to sound the alarm that the shepherd is screwing his own sheep...perhaps that fairhaired youth will wander into the GS cafe and perhaps he'll feed...old friend,..... I'm posting at Greasespot for him to read.
I was in for about 12 years total. The first nine, I was in CT. TWI had just begun there -- if we wanted to go to a big meeting, we went to Rye, NY. I was in high school. No one was being abusive. The BOT didn't interfere in any way that affected me. I was 15.
Then I was in NYC for college. I can remember only one Corps person assigned there my last year, and he was a good man (FS). New Yorkers don't take bs from anyone, including the BOT. The Branch leader wasn't Corps. The Limb leader (JAL) was generally okay. I saw a few people getting "legalistic," but we New Yorkers assumed it was just those few, and would forgive them and try to get them to lighten up. If I saw VPW have a temper tantrum at any large gathering, I forgave him as being under a lot of pressure, and possibly knowing more about the situation spiritually than I did.
Then I went in the Corps, and saw lots of zealotry. I also saw lots of hypocrisy at the Corps Coordinator/BOT level. I never saw the sexual abuse stuff when I was in, but I sure saw a lot of callousness, and some misogyny. It took 9 years to get to this point.
I was sent to AZ. I saw a lot of clueless Corps, while the people themselves there were great. I confronted Wierwille on two occasions, very respectfully, regarding his decisions about me. I was not treated in kind. I had made a commitment to myself long before, that if I ever felt TWI did not stand for God, I would leave. I left. I had been in for 12 years.
Some of us hoped we could help by being leaders and examples from within. I felt like that for a time. But when it was clear that the corruption was at the very top, it was time to go.
Out of curiosity, are Ron and Robin (can't remember their last names) still running around stl? I may know some others, but its been like ages since I've been around those parts. I think they went with the CG thing w/RT originally.
Pfalbmo: The names aren't familiar, but I'll ask around. I was here originally between '79 and '85, moved back to MI, then moved back here 4 yrs ago, so I don't know everybody who's been here, but give me a week, OK?
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oldiesman
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Oakspear
It's not a complaint, it's a point of view.
Is there anything in there you disagree with?
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diazbro
Oakspear said:
Is it arguable then that the "positive" side of TWI, Wierwille, PFAL, etc is not being presented?
>>
The positive side of TWI has been presented
for decades mostly by leaders wanting you to believe that TWI was the one stop shop for truth. They had their shot at walking the talk
but they have failed miserably. They have had
their say and the trouble is that they don't
(then or now) want anyone to dispute it.
Another way to think about it is that the negative aspects of TWI have been suppressed for decades and this forum is evidence of what happens when people have had enough.
Besides - TWI doesn't want to participate here. They could if they wanted to - there is absolutely nothing stopping them from doing so.
Of course they lurk to take notes on people
but thats a passive (Some say cowardly) form
of participation and they have absolutely no
right to complain about Gspot. At any time they
can represent their points of view. the ball is very much in their court.
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oldiesman
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Hope R.
That's one of the reason's I'm still around. But I've come to think that those who are still in TWI at this stage are in because: a.) They want to be there or b.) They have a loved one or family member who is still in and stay for them.
But there are always the people who are just now hearing about TWI, who "google" them and find the Cafe as well as other ex-follower web sites. If the information here can help them make an informed decision, then I'm glad to share my experiences with them.
I've settled much of my personal score with TWI. I can't get back the years - I can't undo what has been done - can't unring the bell. All I can do is get on with my life and consider TWI a long, tedious interruption. Sort of like a 30 year jail sentence in a minimum security prison.
Oh, there are a couple of people who still deserve a piece of my mind, and I hope someday I'll be able to give one to them! But I don't think I harbor the bitterness I had after I left almost 4 year ago.
Do I have good things to say? Only about the many wonderful people I met through my involvement in TWI who I never would have known otherwise. Some of my experiences can be fondly remembered because of them, not because of an organization, or the people who ran it.
My hindsight is 20/20 now, and I'll never wear my TWI rose-colored glasses again.
Because...
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papajohn
I guess what I don't understand is this.
why did it take some of you so long to leave? knowing what the word of god says, and seeing what was happening for so long, why would someone stay?
we all know what the bible says about sex out of marraige and premarital sex, it said the same thing when we joined that it says today. one of the biggest things I was told in TWI was to look it up for yourself. it wasen't just the sex, but the bully type people that ran it. how is it that knowing they were wrong, some stayed anyway trying to make the best of it?
I don't dislike anyone here and wouldn't ever tell anyone not to post here, but look back at your time in TWI and ask yourself why you stayed and why didn't you confront anyone there.
peace and love to you all.
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washingtonweather
Thank you Oak--well put. It saved me the time.
Papajohn--I did leave and with my family intact. And the idea that just because people did not leave right away does not mean they did not confront any of the "evil doers" our very own TWI Sadducees and Pharisees. There are other issues besides taking the "holy" stand...like family and so forth...maybe your employer is TWI...and you have squat to get out with..so you stay and try t figure out some kind of a plan ---Im just saying there are many scenarios to play out in this big mess called TWI.
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johniam
Oakspear: I was just thinking the last couple days about this. One of the last conclusions reached in Karl K's book is that, to him, there was never a time when you could say "I do not believe!" in TWI. Not appropriate. Sends 'red flags' all over the place.
Similarly (but not identically), there is never, or rarely a time on GSC when it's OK to praise VPW or PFAL. And it's not collusion: there is no "inner circle" of GSC which communicates secretly and strategizes how to deal with 'problem posters'. It's all pretty much out in the open; people just post as inspired. Yet, if you do praise VPW and PFAL, better wear asbestos underwear.
I go to a fellowship here in STL which is connected to roughly 60 adults, many of whom are ex TWI. I can speak positively of VPW and PFAL without incident with those people.
In lieu of the above, I guess it's not unreasonable for a website such as this to have an unwritten policy of..."just don't use those words around me!"
I get teed off when posters imply that I am evil or screwed up just because I still value some things from TWI, and I think some trigger happy people drive off new GSers, but...
quote:My point is that Grease Spot IS the equal time, balancing out what TWI presents.
Why is it that this is so tough to understand?
Why do some insist that what goes on here is a 24/7 hate-fest? Why do some insist that abuses that happened didn't really happen, or are minor compared to the "good"?
Personally, there was plenty of good, many positive things that took place during my years in TWI. I met lots of good people and had good times. The "keys" in PFAL helped me to understand the bible and make my own decisions. Getting involved in TWI when I did possibly diverted me from problems with drugs and alcohol.
So why do I not focus on the good times, the godly aspects of TWI, the "positive"?
Because I'm not here to talk anybody into affiliating with or getting involved with TWI. If someone wants to hook up with TWI they'll hear enough reasons to do so from active wayfers. For me, the bad outweighed the good in TWI. If what I write here convinces ONE person to stay away from TWI, then I consider it worth the effort.
I agree.
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imbus
Dear Papajohn,
In responce to "why did you stay so long and why didn't you confront with the truth?"
I did confront my Corps cordinator. I said," I did not see in the BiBle or in the life of Christ ministry abusive handleing of conflict. At the time POP was out and "rouge" research papers were popping up everywhere. The Corps who read and spoke candidly of these issues were heavily repromanded or dismissed from the Corps. I was told I was spiritually immature and did not see the scope of the word concernig these issues. "BULLSHIP"
When I graduated the Corps, I asked my Area cordinator,"How the Bible can contradict itself concerning abortion?" He said if I had to ask a Question like that, then I should not be active Corps or in a leadership position.
After that I never sought out TWI fellowship. I posed the questions in all honesty and was made to fell there was something wrong with me for asking.
So this girl did ask questions and left.
Some leave sooner, some leave later. You just never know what is in the heart of an individual, or why people do what they do. But praise God we'er here and are on the rebound and/or choosing to take a different journey.
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Tom Strange
johniam said:
Do any of those people ever speak any negatives about veepee and TWI? (just wondering)...Link to comment
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Oakspear
I believe that this goes back to one of the points that I made in my initial post, that there are plenty of places to get "positives" about VP & PFAL. This is the "equal time".
What is the purpose of this fellowship? I'm sure that it's different than the purpose of GS.It has been my observation that praise of VP or PFAL usually comes as a rebuttal of sorts to someone's bringing up a criticism. The general perception when that occurs is that the critic's veracity is being questioned or that the "evil" being discussed is downplayed. Yeah, folks will get a mite peeved when that happens!
Another issue is that since we generally don't really know each other, we make pre-judgements based on what we have seen posted. Some posters get pigeon-holed and can't say anything without getting slammed. Of course, some posters richly deserve their reputation!
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johniam
Tom:
quote: Do any of those people ever speak any negatives about veepee and TWI? (just wondering)...
TWI, but not VP. STL believers all left at once in '89. Richard Thomas was the area cordo and he had it out with LCM and HA and that loyalty oath letter was the last straw for them.
Then 2 yrs later some of the fellowships parted ways with RT, joining with John Hendricks. These are the people I fellowship with. JH has been open that "the things people are saying about VPW are true". He doesn't say that a lot, but a lot of his people are ex TWI so he has to address it and his foundational class is very similar to PFAL.
RT still heads up the CG faction here. Those guys generally don't want to talk about VPW OR TWI.
Oakspear:
quote:What is the purpose of this fellowship? I'm sure that it's different than the purpose of GS
Yeah, I mentioned the fellowship to support that I don't have to come on GSC to talk about VP or PFAL.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I left twi 17 years ago, after being involved for 13 years. For me, the twi experience is far removed from my life. It has been for a long time. Is there a residual effect after all this time? Probably so...24-37 are important years in a persons life and I was deeply involved. The con that I swallowed has cost me...
With that said, I agree 100% with Oakspear. This IS the opprotunity for people to hear the OTHER side of the story. I feel a certain obligation ( remember that old poem, "The bridge builder"?)...to reach back for those who follow:
Why, old ex-cult member, are you building a bridge here...your journey's almost over and never again will you pass this chasm...why?
The old ex-cult member raised his graying head and smiled and said...It's true that I am passed this chasm of corruption, this insideous little cornfield cult, this deceitful snake pit full of sexual predators and destroyers of lives...never again will I pass this way. Then, with a wink in his eye and a skip in his step, he said...
Getting out of this mind control cult was no problem for me, but for the fair haired youth who follows this path...it may, a pitfall be...No, I'm not here at Greasespot for my benefit, my friend, but to call bull.... on the fakers and abusers, to sound the alarm that the shepherd is screwing his own sheep...perhaps that fairhaired youth will wander into the GS cafe and perhaps he'll feed...old friend,..... I'm posting at Greasespot for him to read.
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excathedra
very nice hairy
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shazdancer
Dear papajohn,
I was in for about 12 years total. The first nine, I was in CT. TWI had just begun there -- if we wanted to go to a big meeting, we went to Rye, NY. I was in high school. No one was being abusive. The BOT didn't interfere in any way that affected me. I was 15.
Then I was in NYC for college. I can remember only one Corps person assigned there my last year, and he was a good man (FS). New Yorkers don't take bs from anyone, including the BOT. The Branch leader wasn't Corps. The Limb leader (JAL) was generally okay. I saw a few people getting "legalistic," but we New Yorkers assumed it was just those few, and would forgive them and try to get them to lighten up. If I saw VPW have a temper tantrum at any large gathering, I forgave him as being under a lot of pressure, and possibly knowing more about the situation spiritually than I did.
Then I went in the Corps, and saw lots of zealotry. I also saw lots of hypocrisy at the Corps Coordinator/BOT level. I never saw the sexual abuse stuff when I was in, but I sure saw a lot of callousness, and some misogyny. It took 9 years to get to this point.
I was sent to AZ. I saw a lot of clueless Corps, while the people themselves there were great. I confronted Wierwille on two occasions, very respectfully, regarding his decisions about me. I was not treated in kind. I had made a commitment to myself long before, that if I ever felt TWI did not stand for God, I would leave. I left. I had been in for 12 years.
Some of us hoped we could help by being leaders and examples from within. I felt like that for a time. But when it was clear that the corruption was at the very top, it was time to go.
Regards,
Shaz
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Tom Strange
Shaz said:
I made a very similar commitment to myself. If I ever wasn't 100% sure... shortly after a conversation with Craig (pre-enshrinement) I left...Link to comment
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pfalbmo
To Johniam
Out of curiosity, are Ron and Robin (can't remember their last names) still running around stl? I may know some others, but its been like ages since I've been around those parts. I think they went with the CG thing w/RT originally.
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johniam
Pfalbmo: The names aren't familiar, but I'll ask around. I was here originally between '79 and '85, moved back to MI, then moved back here 4 yrs ago, so I don't know everybody who's been here, but give me a week, OK?
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pfalbmo
Thanks! They were coordinating a fellowship at the end of 85. They lived in the North STL branch. They were still there when RT pulled out.
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