I think this brings up the topic of how the Bible is regarded in other "Christian organizations" as well. It is my view that someone having the TWI experience can more readily appreciate Biblical gymnastics done from other organizations in a self serving way. For other Christian organizations cite scripture to point to there theme's with the same resounding dogma's. In fact, most fundamentalists regard the scripture as unfallible and use it as a steping to build a heirarchial order. This is where the OT , I think can be so very useful, not just for our learning but for our application, for there are numerous illustrations that warn one not to do so.
IMO, the Bible certainly is the word of God and infallible. People however are fallible. The bible must be applied. It is therefore in the application of scripture that we must test the applicator, and wether the usage is for the good and benefit of those concerned or are they just making up some "strange brew."
When attendance is poor in a fundamentalist church, they often like to cite the passage that says
"forsake not the gathering together of the saints" but curiously omit the one in I john that says "you need not that any man should teach you" (I John 2:27) And thus the paradox continues.
IMO, this speaks volumes to the problem of people with God as illustrated in Israel's demand for a King, for they would not "have this one rule over them". God, IMO, challenges us to use our minds, skills and talents in an ever increasing way. It makes us uncomfortable to have to dig deeper and work his word in sitations that are very chaotic. It is in the fire, however, that we become better people. Perhaps we should not forget that the baptism was not just of the HS, but also with "fire". Finding a "fearless leader", sometimes pacifies our need for easy stoic answers that really are not answers at all. It is therefore good, that this dilema of application and life's difficulties are forced upon us.
JR, just wanted to let you know that I have enjoyed your posts in this thread very much. I was in 1975-1982 and I had forgoten all about the "absent Christ" blasphemy crap. To this day I still catch myself being careful not to use the word "Jesus". Very devilish and I do remember vp pounding on the pulpit and screaming about all those poor posessed weak so-called christians who were of the devil because THEY worshipped another jesus. Well, we all know the outcome of buying into vp's heresy. God forgive me(and He has)
bluesunday
quote:Originally posted by igotout:
Coolwaters - _Bibliolatry _ is the term I use for their mind set.
It was John Lyxn who first started with the concept (when he was booted in 1988?) of the "Absent Christ in TWI". He made pretty powerful and valid points. Watch Athletes of the Spirit sometime if you can stomach it to see a prime example of Jesus left out of that whole pathetic production. This revelation by JL was disturbing to those of us who were caught in the middle listening to both sides of the battles in the so called "fog years". It rocked our comfortable world.
Though I stayed in TWI for over a decade longer, I have come to believe TWI indeed left Jesus out of TWI in so many ways causing idolatry to ensue. In fact we were taught that to even use the word "Jesus" was wrong. You were reprimanded sharply or thrown out, labled as possessed or an idolator if you dared teach, or speak using Jesus instead of saying "Jesus Christ" or at the very least "Christ".
And then there was the teaching that there was a BIG devil spirit named Jesus, the real catalyst behind all the popular Christian religions of the day.
Personally I think it was rubbish. I even did a "Research Paper" called "The Names and Titles of Jesus Christ" while in the Corps so I studied this quite a lot back then and even slanted my viewpoint to substantiate TWI's reasoning for not using the name Jesus in our day and time.
(It represented the human earthly man who was humiliated and killed rather than the risen Christ Jesus, ya know. Therefore we use Jesus Christ instead of Jesus. Again rubbish.)
Since being away from the influence of TWI I believe these are just names when it really comes down to it. What is believed about the man is more important than what name you use for him. For me now using the term Jesus and thinking about him from a gospel viewpoint gives me more of a sense of him as a savior than the risen christ does. (What blasphemy!). I mean, I like the risen "sandals in the sky" dude a whole lot. But I am still human, down here where he once was, dealing with humanity in all our flaws.
I think the epistles have been over rated and the gospels under rated in TWI. Today I get more out of reading a real life story about some of the things he did as a human than I do in reading some of the deeeeeeep truths of the structure of Ephesians or Corinthians (Yawn). (Again what blasphemy.)
And what to make of this awful statement that was oft quoted in TWI:
"The Bible takes the place of the Absent Christ today"
Nope...knowledge of the word was paramount....mastery of scriptures was the key to spirituality.
I think that was what stagnated my growth, was replacing God and Jesus with scripture.
Really tricky, I had to just dump the bible for a long time in order to refocus my attention on God...that is when the great breakthoughs...the epiphanies and growth began again....
Slowly now, I am able to reintroduce scriptures in their proper context and function....
I know for me personally..... in hindsight, I can see just how idolotrous my focus was....rather than utelising them as a sign post or direction to life with God...scriptures and their mastery became my sustenance.....became what made me rightious...spiritual.
I can`t explain it well....only that I recognise the idolotry that I once practiced....
Really tricky, I had to just dump the bible for a long time in order to refocus my attention on God...that is when the great breakthoughs...the epiphanies and growth began again....
Slowly now, I am able to reintroduce scriptures in their proper context and function....
Exactly.
If we had ever been taught a knowledge of the bible...and not just a knowledge of twi's PI of the bible...it would not be such a common thing for extwi folks to have to walk away from the bible itself to ever begin to learn the true knowledge.
II Timothy 3:7 describes what twi did/does as "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
**** a tornado swirls thru GS dropping Templelady into the midst-yes she is alive--yes she still loves all of you****
I think there is a point that is being missed here. TWI did not commit Biblolatry. Because TWI didn't accept the Bible as written They "fixed" it to coincide with their beliefs,
How many remember Acts 21:14
As Written
quote: And when he [Paul] would not be persuaded we ceased saying, "the will of the Lord be done"
BUt no that doesn't Jibe with TWI position
so we end up with
And when he would not be persuaded we ceased saying "the Will of the Lord be Done"
Dispense with one comma and Paul is changed from dedicated to disobedient
And let us never forget the biblical gymnastics of AOS.
( does anyone really believe that if AOS had been swalllowed hook line and sinker by 90% of the rank and file instead of the uproar that ensued, TWI would not be pushing it still??!??
Does anyone seriously believe that if it had been well accepted VPW woold still have denounced it as death approached??!??)
Looking BAck over the "Cult that Snapped" by Karl Kahler I came across this gem
Concluding his defense of the interpretation of scripture to support AOS and the order in which the Kings scepter , Moses' rod and SAul's spear, Elijahs arrow and the crown appear in scripture Walter Cummins says to VPW
Cummins : And That's it. We haven't found a text yet that inverts--
Wierwille-- You haven't YET [emphasis mine]
Cummins:--the crown putting that last, but we will
WIErwille: Good
Cummins: Because it HAs to be
So it isn't there, we can 't find it anywhere, but we have decided it must be there and so by golly come H E double hockey sticks or high water we are going to find it.
Why is my heart not soothed by this single mindedness that will make it "fit like a hand in a glove"?? Probably because no one has ever bothered to check if the glove is the right size to fit the hand it is to cover
Mogolotry: A practice whereby one`s chief function is to introduce bibliolotry in order to be able to skillfully manufacture (with the appearance of spirituality), any excuse needed to cover ones a-- to make outragious abuse appear acceptable and necessary, and to justify the sating of ones apetites at the followers expense!
I went to TWI's web site. They changed their definition of what TWI is. The Way USED to be "a fellowship OF THE FOLLOWERS OF JESUS CHRIST." Not any more.
How does TWI account for "the absent Christ" in this verse:
MATTHEW 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
It's still there, Golfie, they just moved it to the very bottom of the page. They also added this little ditty which speaks loudly to those of us who are familiar with TWIt-speak:
"Biblical research, teaching, and fellowship is our ministry, and with it come a myriad of supporting responsibilities to see that God’s Word prevails in our day and time. "
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VPW created the biliolatry by teaching that:
"The Word of God is as much God as God is God."
It became an idol which demanded sacrifice and worship and of course the High Priests were the ones who interpreted and communicated its will.
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sky4it
Dan and others:
I think this brings up the topic of how the Bible is regarded in other "Christian organizations" as well. It is my view that someone having the TWI experience can more readily appreciate Biblical gymnastics done from other organizations in a self serving way. For other Christian organizations cite scripture to point to there theme's with the same resounding dogma's. In fact, most fundamentalists regard the scripture as unfallible and use it as a steping to build a heirarchial order. This is where the OT , I think can be so very useful, not just for our learning but for our application, for there are numerous illustrations that warn one not to do so.
IMO, the Bible certainly is the word of God and infallible. People however are fallible. The bible must be applied. It is therefore in the application of scripture that we must test the applicator, and wether the usage is for the good and benefit of those concerned or are they just making up some "strange brew."
When attendance is poor in a fundamentalist church, they often like to cite the passage that says
"forsake not the gathering together of the saints" but curiously omit the one in I john that says "you need not that any man should teach you" (I John 2:27) And thus the paradox continues.
IMO, this speaks volumes to the problem of people with God as illustrated in Israel's demand for a King, for they would not "have this one rule over them". God, IMO, challenges us to use our minds, skills and talents in an ever increasing way. It makes us uncomfortable to have to dig deeper and work his word in sitations that are very chaotic. It is in the fire, however, that we become better people. Perhaps we should not forget that the baptism was not just of the HS, but also with "fire". Finding a "fearless leader", sometimes pacifies our need for easy stoic answers that really are not answers at all. It is therefore good, that this dilema of application and life's difficulties are forced upon us.
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sky4it
This thread deserves to be brought back for more attention. thank you sky4it, your welcome sky4it.
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bluesunday
JR, just wanted to let you know that I have enjoyed your posts in this thread very much. I was in 1975-1982 and I had forgoten all about the "absent Christ" blasphemy crap. To this day I still catch myself being careful not to use the word "Jesus". Very devilish and I do remember vp pounding on the pulpit and screaming about all those poor posessed weak so-called christians who were of the devil because THEY worshipped another jesus. Well, we all know the outcome of buying into vp's heresy. God forgive me(and He has)
bluesunday
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CoolWaters
This is good...
However twi did NOT teach the "trade" of making Jesus lord...
And, therefore, did NOT teach the "trade" of having a knowledge of the bible or the lord.
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rascal
Nope...knowledge of the word was paramount....mastery of scriptures was the key to spirituality.
I think that was what stagnated my growth, was replacing God and Jesus with scripture.
Really tricky, I had to just dump the bible for a long time in order to refocus my attention on God...that is when the great breakthoughs...the epiphanies and growth began again....
Slowly now, I am able to reintroduce scriptures in their proper context and function....
I know for me personally..... in hindsight, I can see just how idolotrous my focus was....rather than utelising them as a sign post or direction to life with God...scriptures and their mastery became my sustenance.....became what made me rightious...spiritual.
I can`t explain it well....only that I recognise the idolotry that I once practiced....
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CoolWaters
Exactly.
If we had ever been taught a knowledge of the bible...and not just a knowledge of twi's PI of the bible...it would not be such a common thing for extwi folks to have to walk away from the bible itself to ever begin to learn the true knowledge.
II Timothy 3:7 describes what twi did/does as "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
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templelady
**** a tornado swirls thru GS dropping Templelady into the midst-yes she is alive--yes she still loves all of you****
I think there is a point that is being missed here. TWI did not commit Biblolatry. Because TWI didn't accept the Bible as written They "fixed" it to coincide with their beliefs,
How many remember Acts 21:14
As Written
BUt no that doesn't Jibe with TWI position
so we end up with
And when he would not be persuaded we ceased saying "the Will of the Lord be Done"
Dispense with one comma and Paul is changed from dedicated to disobedient
And let us never forget the biblical gymnastics of AOS.
( does anyone really believe that if AOS had been swalllowed hook line and sinker by 90% of the rank and file instead of the uproar that ensued, TWI would not be pushing it still??!??
Does anyone seriously believe that if it had been well accepted VPW woold still have denounced it as death approached??!??)
Looking BAck over the "Cult that Snapped" by Karl Kahler I came across this gem
Concluding his defense of the interpretation of scripture to support AOS and the order in which the Kings scepter , Moses' rod and SAul's spear, Elijahs arrow and the crown appear in scripture Walter Cummins says to VPW
Cummins : And That's it. We haven't found a text yet that inverts--
Wierwille-- You haven't YET [emphasis mine]
Cummins:--the crown putting that last, but we will
WIErwille: Good
Cummins: Because it HAs to be
So it isn't there, we can 't find it anywhere, but we have decided it must be there and so by golly come H E double hockey sticks or high water we are going to find it.
Why is my heart not soothed by this single mindedness that will make it "fit like a hand in a glove"?? Probably because no one has ever bothered to check if the glove is the right size to fit the hand it is to cover
The Only thing TWI taught was Mogolatry
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rascal
hee HEE, Mo invented a great new term ...
Mogolotry: A practice whereby one`s chief function is to introduce bibliolotry in order to be able to skillfully manufacture (with the appearance of spirituality), any excuse needed to cover ones a-- to make outragious abuse appear acceptable and necessary, and to justify the sating of ones apetites at the followers expense!
Welcome back girl!
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CoolWaters
Hiya {{{{{Mo}}}}}!!!!!!!!
Mogolatry!!! That's gotta be a GS Gem!!!!
And so true.
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def59
When I stopped using TWI as the standard for truth, the world and word became much clearer for me.
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Golfie
I went to TWI's web site. They changed their definition of what TWI is. The Way USED to be "a fellowship OF THE FOLLOWERS OF JESUS CHRIST." Not any more.
How does TWI account for "the absent Christ" in this verse:
MATTHEW 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
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Belle
It's still there, Golfie, they just moved it to the very bottom of the page. They also added this little ditty which speaks loudly to those of us who are familiar with TWIt-speak:
"Biblical research, teaching, and fellowship is our ministry, and with it come a myriad of supporting responsibilities to see that God’s Word prevails in our day and time. "
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