Let's see, VP left his denomination in what, 1958. And the ministry didn't start to really take off until at least 10 years later. Uncle Harry's money aside, that's a long time to wait for an egg to hatch. Most scam artists want to get rich quick. I think he believed in it.
VP preached and taught God's Word, so if you believe the Word is a scam, and patently false, then ol VP was promoting a scam. If not, then I shant not accuse VP of being a scam artist.
Paul said someplace that "if in this life only we have our hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." In other words, if the Word is a myth, a fantasy, then we are all in deeeeeep doo doo.
I have to ask myself, "If Wierwille actually believed what he was teaching in PFAL, specifically regarding 'To Whom Addressed', then why did he lie about the content of Romans 9:4?"
It's easy enough to see that Romans 9:4 is ABOUT the Jews. It doesn't say "This passage of scripture is addressed TO the Jews". It says, "Who [Paul's brethren] are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;"
It DOES NOT SAY, "This passage of scripture is addressed TO the Israelites."
In the middle of a section of PFAL where Wierwille was touting the IMPORTANCE of paying attention TO WHOM a section of scripture is addressed, he lied about TO WHOM a specific section of scripture, Romans 9-10, was addressed.
Was Wierwille conscious of this lie? He glossed over it. That was the one verse in this part of PFAL that he referenced without having us turn to it in our Bibles. Why? Because his lie would have been too apparent?
I can only conclude that Wierwille knew what he was doing. That would make him, in my opinion, a con-man and a grifter.
If Wierwille did it WITHOUT knowing what he was doing, he was an ignorant fool who had no business setting himself forth as a teacher of God's Word.
I fail to get the significance of this. Paul was talking to Israel, but Romans 10:9 applies to everyone, as well.
Would you rather had VPW taught that Romans 10:9 only applies to Israel, and get folks (non Israel) thinking how they can't be saved, because Roman's 10:9 doesn't apply to them specifically? THAT would be lying.
Wierwille claimed to have made a pact with The Almighty in 1942 with the incredible snowy gaspumps. A phenomenon that no one else has ever mentioned and that Wierwille himself said nothing about until many years after the actual event.
He also claimed to have been snowbound in Tulsa a few years later (he really seemed to have a fixation on snow as the perrennial causitive agent for God's Will, didn't he?), though there's no record of snow in Tulsa at the time.
He claimed to be "good friends" with a number of semi-famous preacher types of the 40's and 50's (Star Daily, Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, and numerous others), funny they don't seem to have the same memories.
When palpable errors in his doctrine were pointed out to him by associates, they were either "re-educated" or shown the door.
In fairness to Wierwille, I don't think his decision to deceive was so much a conscious thing as it was an indicator of a mental malady.
Except Oldies you are really engaging in circular reasoning here. Weirwille taught God's Word, God's Word is true, therefore Weirwille wasn't a con. There are those of us who don't believe what VPW taught was necessarily God's Word.
But be that as it may, even if one was to accept for the sake of argument that some/most/all of what he taught was God's Word; my original question was not concerning really what he taught, or focusing on any specific chapter or verse. It was more to the point of did he actually BELIEVE himself the things that he taught? And how does that square with his subsequent actions?
Oh no George, didn't you know, (as pointed out by Mike)...gawd "told" Vic to steal the works from other men and slap his name on it. It was all part of gawd's master plan to crown Vic as Thee greatest word dividin', bible thumpin', revelation gettin', withered hand healin', snow gazin', motorcycle wreckin', shanta shoutin', foot grabbin', money pilin', cornfield preachin' man of gawd that has walked the earth since...Jeezuz hisself!!!...Leading this heavenly spermsickle cult into the reality of turd over the world....mmmmmmmmm,
oldies...how about Vics teaching on tithing...he never gave his "should sons do less than servants" teachings until the organization grew and he needed the money. In fact, it was a sharp departure from what he had previously been teaching...that's why many of the old timers left in the early sixies...
oldies...how about Vics advanced class teachings about receiving revelation? If he really believed his own teachings why did twi keep such a tight rein on people, making decisions FOR them all the time? I mean, if you really believed that God is speaking to EACH person, why put such controls over them, as if they were mindless fu*kchimps?
quote:oldies...how about Vics teaching on tithing...he never gave his "should sons do less than servants" teachings until the organization grew and he needed the money. In fact, it was a sharp departure from what he had previously been teaching...that's why many of the old timers left in the early sixies...
All I can say about this subject is I don't think the way VPW taught it was accurate, or works. Also, he made some comments that look like fear motivation to me. But I prefer to refrain from the personal attacks and leave true judgment up to God, since He knew where VPW's heart was.
Regarding controls put on people...I view it as people in large part allowing controls to be placed on themselves, by joining the Corps and believing that decisions made by VPW for them were godly decisions. I suppose folks who thought differently could have easily opted out of the Corps, and many did. Lots of folks chose to not go Corps as well.
Regarding the stolen teachings...I've seen instances that VPW plagiarized some sentences. But we all knew back then and now that VPW "learned from men of God scattered across the continent". He got PFAL from a variety of sources...some Leonard, some Stiles, some Bullinger, some from his own study. He "put it together", he adapted it to his own class form and the "interpretation" he thought was the best. I think it was the best at that time, and lots of folks thought the same as me, judging from their years and years in twi.
There are many many goodies in PFAL, if you spent a fraction of the time focusing on the truth contained therein then you'd have something other than VPW'S sins to chew on and digest.
George...That brings up another interesting point...Obviously, Vic simply took what HE considered to be the best theology of other men and put it together in a hybrid way...oftentimes stealing, word for word...like a wayward college student...
In pfal, I CLEARLY remember Vic going on and on and on and on...about how he finally came to "the point" in his life where he threw away all his theological books, hauled em all to the place where the fires never cease (remember?)...from that point on, he studied ONLY the word itself. He made a point of emphasizing all of that!
OK...So when did when Vic actually come to "the point" of hauling all his theological books to the dump?...My guess is right AFTER he copied it all down on paper and put his own name on it! I mean, no sense in keeping the evidence around...might as well haul it all to the dump now! :D-->
In other words, he was a self serving, lying bastard, seeking self glory...and some people still give credence to Vic's teachings? If Vic was right about anything at all, it's because Stiles, Bullinger, or Leonard may have been right about something...but then again, this was the theology that Vic thought was most sound...and we all know about Vic, now don't we? So...if you insist on developing a Christian doctrinal base in your head...my only suggestion would be to find your own theologians to believe in...why go second hand through the twisted prism of a grifter?
He taught that the Word of God is the Will of God, and ingrained it in lots of us. There's more power and lasting blessing in that one thought than all the nasties you guys love to focus on.
Oh, and re: "There's more power and lasting blessing in that one thought than ..."
There is? I'm not even sure I know what the hell it means. Near as I can tell it's something like "The Bible is God's Word"
This is some new, earthshattering, heretofore unknown doctrine? Uh, uh, whatever blows your skirt up.
What do you think about the fact that Wierwille identified that picture of "The first PFAL Class" as such, when he was actually teaching B.G. Leonard's class for him? How do you rationlize that? Maybe he thought that taking B.G.'s class in Canada was all just a Godly vision, revelation from the Almighty?
Well at least oldies doesn't refute the facts...he simply says "who cares?". Ya gotta marvel at that "ostrich with his head in the sand" approach to life...To each his own.
just imagine, if'n ole vic had gone into sports insteada Bible-sellin'...
less see, the hook shot, the forward pass, the suicide-squeeze play, basket catches, West Coast offence, pick and roll, pads for goalies, illuminated "puck-trails", Willie MacCovey/Barry Bonds right field/infield shift, empty backfield with 4 wide receivers, the mind boggles at the stuff vic coulda borrowed/invented.....
Oh, and I think he knew about the plagiarism but, except possibly for the Leonard material, didn't think it was a big deal: Bullinger was dead, after all. Plus, he probably was not thinking of his books as "scholarship" so much as tracts.
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johniam
Let's see, VP left his denomination in what, 1958. And the ministry didn't start to really take off until at least 10 years later. Uncle Harry's money aside, that's a long time to wait for an egg to hatch. Most scam artists want to get rich quick. I think he believed in it.
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oldiesman
VP preached and taught God's Word, so if you believe the Word is a scam, and patently false, then ol VP was promoting a scam. If not, then I shant not accuse VP of being a scam artist.
Paul said someplace that "if in this life only we have our hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." In other words, if the Word is a myth, a fantasy, then we are all in deeeeeep doo doo.
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Steve Lortz
I have to ask myself, "If Wierwille actually believed what he was teaching in PFAL, specifically regarding 'To Whom Addressed', then why did he lie about the content of Romans 9:4?"
It's easy enough to see that Romans 9:4 is ABOUT the Jews. It doesn't say "This passage of scripture is addressed TO the Jews". It says, "Who [Paul's brethren] are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;"
It DOES NOT SAY, "This passage of scripture is addressed TO the Israelites."
In the middle of a section of PFAL where Wierwille was touting the IMPORTANCE of paying attention TO WHOM a section of scripture is addressed, he lied about TO WHOM a specific section of scripture, Romans 9-10, was addressed.
Was Wierwille conscious of this lie? He glossed over it. That was the one verse in this part of PFAL that he referenced without having us turn to it in our Bibles. Why? Because his lie would have been too apparent?
I can only conclude that Wierwille knew what he was doing. That would make him, in my opinion, a con-man and a grifter.
If Wierwille did it WITHOUT knowing what he was doing, he was an ignorant fool who had no business setting himself forth as a teacher of God's Word.
Love,
Steve
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oldiesman
I fail to get the significance of this. Paul was talking to Israel, but Romans 10:9 applies to everyone, as well.
Would you rather had VPW taught that Romans 10:9 only applies to Israel, and get folks (non Israel) thinking how they can't be saved, because Roman's 10:9 doesn't apply to them specifically? THAT would be lying.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Before this turns out to be a theological debate on salvation...
...I vote grifter.
(ex corps)
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George Aar
Well lets see.
Wierwille claimed to have made a pact with The Almighty in 1942 with the incredible snowy gaspumps. A phenomenon that no one else has ever mentioned and that Wierwille himself said nothing about until many years after the actual event.
He also claimed to have been snowbound in Tulsa a few years later (he really seemed to have a fixation on snow as the perrennial causitive agent for God's Will, didn't he?), though there's no record of snow in Tulsa at the time.
He claimed to be "good friends" with a number of semi-famous preacher types of the 40's and 50's (Star Daily, Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, and numerous others), funny they don't seem to have the same memories.
When palpable errors in his doctrine were pointed out to him by associates, they were either "re-educated" or shown the door.
In fairness to Wierwille, I don't think his decision to deceive was so much a conscious thing as it was an indicator of a mental malady.
I believe he was simply one sick Mutha #$%%er...
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George Aar
Oh, and don't forget all of the works of other men that he stole and slapped his name on. Maybe he did that while he was sleepwalking?
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Bogey76
Except Oldies you are really engaging in circular reasoning here. Weirwille taught God's Word, God's Word is true, therefore Weirwille wasn't a con. There are those of us who don't believe what VPW taught was necessarily God's Word.
But be that as it may, even if one was to accept for the sake of argument that some/most/all of what he taught was God's Word; my original question was not concerning really what he taught, or focusing on any specific chapter or verse. It was more to the point of did he actually BELIEVE himself the things that he taught? And how does that square with his subsequent actions?
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oldiesman
I guess it depends.
I think he believed what he taught on many issues.
What is it that he taught that he didn't believe? how do you come to that conclusion?
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GrouchoMarxJr
Oh no George, didn't you know, (as pointed out by Mike)...gawd "told" Vic to steal the works from other men and slap his name on it. It was all part of gawd's master plan to crown Vic as Thee greatest word dividin', bible thumpin', revelation gettin', withered hand healin', snow gazin', motorcycle wreckin', shanta shoutin', foot grabbin', money pilin', cornfield preachin' man of gawd that has walked the earth since...Jeezuz hisself!!!...Leading this heavenly spermsickle cult into the reality of turd over the world....mmmmmmmmm,
....grifter.
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GrouchoMarxJr
oldies...how about Vics teaching on tithing...he never gave his "should sons do less than servants" teachings until the organization grew and he needed the money. In fact, it was a sharp departure from what he had previously been teaching...that's why many of the old timers left in the early sixies...
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GrouchoMarxJr
oldies...how about Vics advanced class teachings about receiving revelation? If he really believed his own teachings why did twi keep such a tight rein on people, making decisions FOR them all the time? I mean, if you really believed that God is speaking to EACH person, why put such controls over them, as if they were mindless fu*kchimps?
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George Aar
And O.M.,
Do you think that V.P. didn't know that the PFAL class was stolen from B.G. Leonard?
That the RTHST was stolen from Stiles?
That even the PFAL book was largely plagiarized from Bullinger?
What do you think was going on in his head?
Did he honestly think that all the works he stole were somehow legitimately his property?
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oldiesman
Regarding controls put on people...I view it as people in large part allowing controls to be placed on themselves, by joining the Corps and believing that decisions made by VPW for them were godly decisions. I suppose folks who thought differently could have easily opted out of the Corps, and many did. Lots of folks chose to not go Corps as well.
Regarding the stolen teachings...I've seen instances that VPW plagiarized some sentences. But we all knew back then and now that VPW "learned from men of God scattered across the continent". He got PFAL from a variety of sources...some Leonard, some Stiles, some Bullinger, some from his own study. He "put it together", he adapted it to his own class form and the "interpretation" he thought was the best. I think it was the best at that time, and lots of folks thought the same as me, judging from their years and years in twi.
There are many many goodies in PFAL, if you spent a fraction of the time focusing on the truth contained therein then you'd have something other than VPW'S sins to chew on and digest.
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GrouchoMarxJr
George...That brings up another interesting point...Obviously, Vic simply took what HE considered to be the best theology of other men and put it together in a hybrid way...oftentimes stealing, word for word...like a wayward college student...
In pfal, I CLEARLY remember Vic going on and on and on and on...about how he finally came to "the point" in his life where he threw away all his theological books, hauled em all to the place where the fires never cease (remember?)...from that point on, he studied ONLY the word itself. He made a point of emphasizing all of that!
OK...So when did when Vic actually come to "the point" of hauling all his theological books to the dump?...My guess is right AFTER he copied it all down on paper and put his own name on it! I mean, no sense in keeping the evidence around...might as well haul it all to the dump now!
:D-->
In other words, he was a self serving, lying bastard, seeking self glory...and some people still give credence to Vic's teachings? If Vic was right about anything at all, it's because Stiles, Bullinger, or Leonard may have been right about something...but then again, this was the theology that Vic thought was most sound...and we all know about Vic, now don't we? So...if you insist on developing a Christian doctrinal base in your head...my only suggestion would be to find your own theologians to believe in...why go second hand through the twisted prism of a grifter?
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George Aar
UH,
"My guess is right AFTER he copied it all down on paper and put his own name on it! I mean, no sense in keeping the evidence around"
LOL
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oldiesman
Who cares?
He taught that the Word of God is the Will of God, and ingrained it in lots of us. There's more power and lasting blessing in that one thought than all the nasties you guys love to focus on.
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George Aar
Oldiesman,
You've got lots of competition of late, but I think you're definitely in the lead for poster boy for "cognitive dissonance".
Congratulations!
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George Aar
Oh, and re: "There's more power and lasting blessing in that one thought than ..."
There is? I'm not even sure I know what the hell it means. Near as I can tell it's something like "The Bible is God's Word"
This is some new, earthshattering, heretofore unknown doctrine? Uh, uh, whatever blows your skirt up.
What do you think about the fact that Wierwille identified that picture of "The first PFAL Class" as such, when he was actually teaching B.G. Leonard's class for him? How do you rationlize that? Maybe he thought that taking B.G.'s class in Canada was all just a Godly vision, revelation from the Almighty?
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GrouchoMarxJr
hee hee...
Well at least oldies doesn't refute the facts...he simply says "who cares?". Ya gotta marvel at that "ostrich with his head in the sand" approach to life...To each his own.
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Raf
Call me gullible, but I give VPW the benefit of the doubt on anything that can't be reasonably proven false.
I believe he knew the snow on the gas pumps to be a lie.
I believe he knew the Tulsa snowstorm to be a lie.
I suspect he was outright lying about the 1942 promise.
On doctrine, I think he really believed it.
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Jim
"Warning Will Robinson, thread derailment ahead"
You mean like the hookshot?
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alfakat
just imagine, if'n ole vic had gone into sports insteada Bible-sellin'...
less see, the hook shot, the forward pass, the suicide-squeeze play, basket catches, West Coast offence, pick and roll, pads for goalies, illuminated "puck-trails", Willie MacCovey/Barry Bonds right field/infield shift, empty backfield with 4 wide receivers, the mind boggles at the stuff vic coulda borrowed/invented.....
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Raf
Oh, and I think he knew about the plagiarism but, except possibly for the Leonard material, didn't think it was a big deal: Bullinger was dead, after all. Plus, he probably was not thinking of his books as "scholarship" so much as tracts.
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