You must feel so superior and special up there Oldies - hiding behind your scriptures like a good little Wayfer. "I didn't write the book, God did" Isn't that the same crap the nazi corp. used to throw at us?
Well gee Oldies, should we all begin to believe the Bible is God's Word simply because YOU say so?
And yes, Raf, you have the right idea. Many Jewish people, even with in the more traditional sects, do not view the Bible in it's entirety as laws that must be strictly adhered to. Many view it as a historical record of man's relationship to God and how it has evolved and changed over time.
Additionally, there are many, many books - commentaries and arguments - written by Rabbis, which are considered to carry a great deal of authority, debating over how the scriptures are to be interpreted and applied.
A good many Jews do not take the Bible literally or do, but see many many layers underneath the literal.
But it sounds to me like you're just trying to water down the scriptures, or perhaps explain salvation is attainable by some other way. John 14:6 is pretty strong but I still believe it's the truth.
Yep Uncle H.. I did a research paper in school about the holocaust, specifically why people deny it. I found that if the many of the deniers see concrete proof that the holocaust did indeed occur, the general rationalization is that "it probably really wasn't that bad. Hitler didn't kill six million jews, there were only no more that one and a half million".
One of the more "scholarly" individuals who's name came up (can't remember the name off the top of my head now) claimed he was an engineer. His "publication" boasted how he had found the real inner skinny on "da enemy". He had previously stolen bricks from a holocaust site and performed chemical analysis on it. Lo and behold, there was no evidence of prussic acid being in or on the brick. "Aha! Conspiracy!" he cried.
Funny, the stolen bricks were from a museum, a recreation. The bricks only dated since the sixties.. some other bricks that may have been actual witnesses had been submerged under water, for DECADES. And somehow he was "suprised and shocked" to find no presence of poison. The kind of "science" employed by other deniers was no better.
But his report sounded so modern, so "scientific". Some people probably still believe him. He did have a degree after all- I think it was in history. Must have not liked it, as he seemed to want to rewrite it. I don't think he ever took a chemistry course in his life.
Kind of interesting. I think a lot of people find the thought that some of their neighbors who somehow acquire power can be THAT evil to be a very uncomfortable, unsettling belief. Just can't believe it. Some seem to be willing to go to extreme measures to return to the nice belief that everybody and everything is so wonderful.
But it sounds to me like you're just trying to water down the scriptures, or perhaps explain salvation is attainable by some other way. John 14:6 is pretty strong but I still believe it's the truth.
Ummm, om? it may have escaped your attention, but this is NOT a Christian website, and not all here adhere to the notion that the scriptures are God-breathed.
Reminds me of when ole craigers went nuts hearing about the vey kids being scheduled to go to a holocaust museum. Wanted to "protect their hearts"- ha. Most kids have been exposed to even more gruesome images on TV and video games.
Look what craigers did with the power he got over a little, insignificant hole in a cornfield cult outfit. Just imagine if he had power over a nation.
And all of this nonsense like "The Thirteenth tribe", "myth of the six million" and other such hogwash makes this kind of thing more possible.
The worst evil that exists seems to like to hide behind a few not-so-verifiable "facts".
quote:Ummm, om? it may have escaped your attention, but this is NOT a Christian website, and not all here adhere to the notion that the scriptures are God-breathed.
Well, it sounds to me like you are taking other posters to task regarding the scripture.
That would be like me taking you to task over something it says in the Koran. You obviously don't value the Koran as your source of faith or of truth, so why would it be appropriate for me to refer to something in that book?
Unlike a number of Christians who seem to be more preoccupied with the next life than this one, many Jewish people keep their focus on how to make the world we presently live in a better place.
Unlike certain "Christians" who seem to be more preoccupied with who will and won't be "seated in the heavenlies" a good many Jewish people prefer not to judge other's harshly but instead to focus on how they can be a better person.
So what exactly does John 14:6 mean? Does it mean you have to believe (mentally ascend to) the idea that Jesus is the Messiah? Or does it mean you have to model your life after him?
If it means the latter, what example did Jesus set? Did he sit in harsh judgement regarding who would and would not be in one of the many mansions in his Father's house? Or did he go out and by word and example teach, feed, and otherwise assist the "sinners"?
Did he stand among the religious ones who set laws for others, which they themselves did not adhere to? Or did he reprove them?
I have known a good number of wonderful Christians. Likewise I have known athiests who were more "Christian" than some who profess to be.
quote:Well, it sounds to me like you are taking other posters to task regarding the scripture. ... That would be like me taking you to task over something it says in the Koran. You obviously don't value the Koran as your source of faith or of truth, so why would it be appropriate for me to refer to something in that book?
If you believe something in the Koran to be the truth, you are free to share it on an opinion page such as this one, which is open to the free exchange of ideas, irrespective of whether anyone else believes what you are saying.
Now if a persons opinions on scripture or the Koran are not allowed, then that's an entirely different stow-ree. But such is not the case here and we don't always base what we post on others beliefs, likes or dislikes.
quote:If it means the latter, what example did Jesus set? Did he sit in harsh judgement regarding who would and would not be in one of the many mansions in his Father's house? Or did he go out and by word and example teach, feed, and otherwise assist the "sinners"?
All together now .... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIt's not by works of righteousness, but by His grace alone..
It's not by works of righteousness, but by His grace alone..
It's not by works of righteousness, but by His grace alone..
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand I am complete in Him...halelujah Lord... :)-->
Yeah well Oldies, lets just hope God doesn't judge you in the same manner that you judge others - judge not lest you be judged, eh?
BTW - despite what your hero taught, many Christians believe being "complete in him" is a growing process - as you grow in him you become complete in him. But you don't have to worry about that, sitting up there so much higher than everyone else and all.
Hmmm and that reminds me of another verse, about not being high minded - ah, nevermind you don't have to worry about what the rest of the Bible says, cause you're complete in him.
But wait - isn't there also a verse about receiving the grace of god in vain, but you don't care about that stuff, do ya.
Why did VP have this stuff? Because he was a member of the Liberty Lobby
(snip)
VP was a white supremist, but it was not something he spoke about in public. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble. Research the Liberty Lobby.
Sunesis, you have no idea how many personal questions you just answered for me. I saw the parallels between what I had seen in TWI and when the militias were in the news during the early 90s. I had heard of "liberty lobby" during that time and saw the connections between "Liberty Lobby," white supremist, neo-nazi, and militias based on my own research on the topic. I thought it particularly curious some of the garbage they spewed out and some of the stuff I'd seen advocated while in TWI. But I thought it was just a matter of being fellow-travellers because of a similar world-view.
Thanks to the information you provided, I now can see the direct linkage. OMG.
The funny part about all of this was that during the time that all of this was going on, I was in an AF unit where we flew the black helicopters that made all of these folks so paranoid (MH-53s for those who are interested).
Thank you very much for your information. You have NO idea how many questions you just answered for me.
Those years....1976-1979 came flying back.....Wake Up America!....Malpacks....The New World Order.....Illuminati......33 Degree Masons....Ted Patrick and Cults.....Jim Jones.....Government Cover-ups......Seed Men
Even that 'music book'.......subliminal stuff in all rock music.
As Sunesis said......the secret constitution, etc were distributed first to the 7th corps. HMMMMM who do we know that was 7th corps.....hmmmmm, SnakeGeer?
Many, many, many of vpw's stranger *concepts* began with his former coach driver. Snake was easily the MOST PARANOID and the most avid CONSPIRACY THEORY follower that I ever met. He was behind the illuminati garbage and the MALPACK garbage. He had a GREAT influence on vpw.
I'm still stunned by that post of Sunesis on "Liberty Lobby" and haven't read past this post but had to stop and comment to you Abi.
quote:Originally posted by Abigail:
Unlike a number of Christians who seem to be more preoccupied with the next life than this one, many Jewish people keep their focus on how to make the world we presently live in a better place.
I have begun to see there is a heart to aid and be a part of things of this world by way of a faith. New adventures for me presently. But you're words resound with truth. Like a nervf sledgehammer dead center of the brow.
Unlike certain "Christians" who seem to be more preoccupied with who will and won't be "seated in the heavenlies" a good many Jewish people prefer not to judge other's harshly but instead to focus on how they can be a better person.
Again, I have seen evidence this does exist and recall I once believed and acted upon it. Thank you for laying out the factual details for your heritage and faith.
So what exactly does John 14:6 mean? Does it mean you have to believe (mentally ascend to) the idea that Jesus is the Messiah? Or does it mean you have to model your life after him?
If it means the latter, what example did Jesus set? Did he sit in harsh judgement regarding who would and would not be in one of the many mansions in his Father's house? Or did he go out and by word and example teach, feed, and otherwise assist the "sinners"?
Did he stand among the religious ones who set laws for others, which they themselves did not adhere to? Or did he reprove them?
I have known a good number of wonderful Christians. Likewise I have known athiests who were more "Christian" than some who profess to be.
Your entire post was one of the best I've ever had the privilege of reading. Thank you Abi!
oldiesman - I can empathize with your attitude toward PFAL and Wierwille. I was involved with TWI for seven years in which I went WOW once, coordinated a twig for two years (where we put together and ran a PFAL class at the twig level), and spent the first two blocks in residence with the 16th Corps. During that time, I genuinely believed in PFAL and Wierwille. I defended them tooth and nail.
I left in '87 when I found out about the adultery, but for years, I still defended the integrity of PFAL. I was involved for nine more years with splinter groups, trying to resuscitate the good old days.
It didn't work.
As I studied the things we had been taught in PFAL, and tried to track them through the Word for myself, I realized that most of what Wierwille TAUGHT can't be tracked, because it's simply not there. Wierwille PREACHED a lot of things that were right, but he taught a lot of things that were dead wrong. It was my own study of the material covered in PFAL that opened my eyes to the depth of error Wierwille perpetrated in that class.
On January 26, '05, 11:23 (page 2, this thread), I wrote, ""oldiesman - How do you explain Wierwille's lie in PFAL about the content of Romans 9:4?"
On January 26, '05, 13:47 (page 3, this thread), you replied, "Steve, perhaps this is not the topic for this thread, though I'm always open to giving your accusations an ear."
I think my question is very much on topic. This thread is about Wierwille's attitude toward the Jews.
The Christian congregation at Rome was having some difficulties because of attitudes the Jewish and the Gentile believers were exhibiting toward each other. Much of the book of Romans was written with this incipient conflict in mind, and Romans 9-11 addresses it explicitly. Yet Wierwille taught that Romans 9-11 was not addressed to Christians.
On page 208 of the PFAL book, Wierwille quoted I Corinthians 10:32, "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God" and went on a few sentences later,
quote: The entire Bible is addressed to one or the other of these three groups. Unless one understands to whom a passage or book or section is written, he will never be able to rightly divide the Word of Truth.
The sentence "The entire Bible is addressed to one or the other of these three groups" oversimplifies to the point of error. Parts of the Bible are addressed, not to "these three groups", but to individuals, and even subsets within these groups.
On Page 212 of PFAL Wierwille wrote,
quote: We must be continually conscious of the part of the Word of God which is written for our learning and separate it from that part which is written to us. These two prepositions, for and to, make the critical difference between truth and error when it comes to rightly dividing the Word of God.
On page 217 of PFAL Wierwille wrote,
quote: Romans 8 says that nothing can separate me from the love of God; and yet three chapters later, Romans 11 says that if I don't continue in His goodness, I am going to be cut off. What's going on? Look to see to whom each passage is written:
Romans 9:3
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh.
Who were Paul's kinsmen according to the flesh? Verse 4 says, "Who are Israelites..." To whom is it addressed? Verse 4 says to the Israelites, the Judeans. Paul continued talking to Israel. Paul wrote in chapter 10 verse 1, "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." This is still addressed to Israel...
First, notice that Wierwille quoted from each verse he referenced except Romans 9:4. Let's look at Romans 9:2-5 all together,
quote: 2 ...I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Wierwille wrote, "To whom is it addressed? Verse 4 says to the Israelites, the Judeans."
That, my patient brother, is a lie. Verse 4 says the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God and the promises were addressed to Israel. It does not say anything about THIS section of Romans being addressed TO Israel.
With all the verses Wierwille quoted directly, why did he NOT quote Romans 9:4? Perhaps because Wierwille taught that it said something other than what is actually written?
Wierwille went on, "Paul wrote in chapter 10 verse 1, 'Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer for Israel is, that they might be saved.' This is still addressed to Israel."
No, it is addressed to Paul's "brethren", his fellow Christians. There are two clues that tell us the "brethren" of Romans 10:1 are not the "brethren" of Romans 9:3.
First, in Romans 9:3 Paul qualifies the word "brethren" with the phrase "my kinsmen according to the flesh". There "brethren" DID refer to Israelites. When Paul used the word "brethren" without any qualifiers in Romans 10:1, he was addressing his fellow brothers in Christ at Rome.
Second, if Romans 10:1 was addressed to Israel, Paul would have written, "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for YOU is, that YOU might be saved." This is still not addressed TO Israel.
Remember, we must be continually conscious of the uses of "for" and "to". These two prepositions make the critical difference between truth and error.
So, oldiesman, Wierwille taught something that was manifestly untrue, "Verse 4 says to the Israelites, the Judeans." He taught this in the middle of a section of PFAL dedicated to the importance of paying attention to the prepositions "for" and "to", and to getting "To Whom Addressed" correct.
Willis Carto the founder of "Liberty Lobby" was a devotee of Francis Parker Yockey. A man that REVERED Hitler. No wonder Carto founded the group "Institute for Historical Review" that promoted the Nazi Holocaust never happened.
A few of the political associates of Yockey's were:
German-American Bund
German American National Alliance
William Dudley Pelley's Silver Shirts
Ku Klux Klan
Sir Oswald Mosley's Union Movement
Union Movement
James H. Madole's National Renaisance Party
I don't appreciate the importance as it should be yet. But how much did VPW subscribe to Carto's way of thinking? I don't know this personally but after looking into this man a wee bit tonight I find it very distrubing that VPW would have given ear longer than five minutes.
As Sunesis said......the secret constitution, etc were distributed first to the 7th corps. HMMMMM who do we know that was 7th corps.....hmmmmm, SnakeGeer?
Many, many, many of vpw's stranger *concepts* began with his former coach driver. Snake was easily the MOST PARANOID and the most avid CONSPIRACY THEORY follower that I ever met. He was behind the illuminati garbage and the MALPACK garbage. He had a GREAT influence on vpw.
VP & CG........not to be confused with lcm's VP and Me transcripts.
The collaborating interests between vpw and cgeer could easily document an extensive study that drastically altered twi.....twi's trustees.....twi's corporate policies.....twi's corps. And, further....with copyright privileges in hand and "franchising pfal to geerite followers" the chasm widens.
Paranoia and Conspiracy Theories.......vpw and cgeer had similar and growing interests in the books and material they read. How deep these interests ran....who knows?
I do have one incident that has puzzled me all these years. I was sitting with vpw in his motorcoach discussing some things. Cgeer came into the coach briskly, looked at vp and said, "He's here......on grounds." Abruptly, they left without another word. Cgeer drove and they left hq grounds. Puzzled, I left the coach and never said a word to others.....thinking that, if spoken, it might endanger vpw or someone else.
For years, the vpw/cgeer relationship was far greater than many ever knew. Services rendered by cgeer.........coach driver, valet, bodyguard, conspiracy theorist, book enthusiast, dog trainer, corps coordinator, vpw mannerisms, etc.
Some could easily argue that it was a premeditated form of identity theft.
quote:As Sunesis said......the secret constitution, etc were distributed first to the 7th corps. HMMMMM who do we know that was 7th corps.....hmmmmm, SnakeGeer? ... Many, many, many of vpw's stranger *concepts* began with his former coach driver. Snake was easily the MOST PARANOID and the most avid CONSPIRACY THEORY follower that I ever met. He was behind the illuminati garbage and the MALPACK garbage. He had a GREAT influence on vpw.
The Newstates Constitution was a real document. The organizers and planners of this document were real. Doesn't hurt to be informed, which is what we were.
quote:So, oldiesman, Wierwille taught something that was manifestly untrue, "Verse 4 says to the Israelites, the Judeans." He taught this in the middle of a section of PFAL dedicated to the importance of paying attention to the prepositions "for" and "to", and to getting "To Whom Addressed" correct.
Did he do it out of incompetence of dishonesty?
Steve Lortz, it could be a simple thing like incompetence as well. Remember "all without exception" and "all without distinction"? In our orgasmic spiritual bliss, none of us bothered to correct that which made no sense...
I used to visit HQ in '71 while still in high school, we had moved from NY to Columbus, so it was an easy trip. We knew people there, would hang out in friends' units, etc. I had seen some spotlight magazines at one time - I forget exactly where or when - they were more like large pamplets. That's why when we got our new "secret constitutions" and there was the Spotlight subscription form, I thought, oh - nothing really about it, but oh, yeah, I've seen this before.
I think Igotout put a copy of the back cover here in a thread once - I think he still has his also.
I had always wondered where VP got all this "top secret" "heavy" government info he only shared in the advanced class. It wasn't until I read the book years later on staff that everything fell into place.
Also, quite a few of his top guys were avid readers of Soldier of Fortune Magazine - you know survival stuff, etc. I read it for awhile on the recommendation of one Rev. while on staff at hq. VPs bodyguards were sent for training at one of these militia camps in the southwest. I know they were thrown out of one, and ended up training at another. Just, a lot of b.s. stuff went on.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
10
23
8
6
Popular Days
Jan 26
45
Jan 27
36
Jan 25
26
Jan 28
8
Top Posters In This Topic
skyrider 10 posts
oldiesman 23 posts
Abigail 8 posts
J0nny Ling0 6 posts
Popular Days
Jan 26 2005
45 posts
Jan 27 2005
36 posts
Jan 25 2005
26 posts
Jan 28 2005
8 posts
Abigail
You must feel so superior and special up there Oldies - hiding behind your scriptures like a good little Wayfer. "I didn't write the book, God did" Isn't that the same crap the nazi corp. used to throw at us?
Well gee Oldies, should we all begin to believe the Bible is God's Word simply because YOU say so?
And yes, Raf, you have the right idea. Many Jewish people, even with in the more traditional sects, do not view the Bible in it's entirety as laws that must be strictly adhered to. Many view it as a historical record of man's relationship to God and how it has evolved and changed over time.
Additionally, there are many, many books - commentaries and arguments - written by Rabbis, which are considered to carry a great deal of authority, debating over how the scriptures are to be interpreted and applied.
A good many Jews do not take the Bible literally or do, but see many many layers underneath the literal.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Which may be why a good many remain in unbelief?
But it sounds to me like you're just trying to water down the scriptures, or perhaps explain salvation is attainable by some other way. John 14:6 is pretty strong but I still believe it's the truth.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Yep Uncle H.. I did a research paper in school about the holocaust, specifically why people deny it. I found that if the many of the deniers see concrete proof that the holocaust did indeed occur, the general rationalization is that "it probably really wasn't that bad. Hitler didn't kill six million jews, there were only no more that one and a half million".
One of the more "scholarly" individuals who's name came up (can't remember the name off the top of my head now) claimed he was an engineer. His "publication" boasted how he had found the real inner skinny on "da enemy". He had previously stolen bricks from a holocaust site and performed chemical analysis on it. Lo and behold, there was no evidence of prussic acid being in or on the brick. "Aha! Conspiracy!" he cried.
Funny, the stolen bricks were from a museum, a recreation. The bricks only dated since the sixties.. some other bricks that may have been actual witnesses had been submerged under water, for DECADES. And somehow he was "suprised and shocked" to find no presence of poison. The kind of "science" employed by other deniers was no better.
But his report sounded so modern, so "scientific". Some people probably still believe him. He did have a degree after all- I think it was in history. Must have not liked it, as he seemed to want to rewrite it. I don't think he ever took a chemistry course in his life.
Kind of interesting. I think a lot of people find the thought that some of their neighbors who somehow acquire power can be THAT evil to be a very uncomfortable, unsettling belief. Just can't believe it. Some seem to be willing to go to extreme measures to return to the nice belief that everybody and everything is so wonderful.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve!
Ummm, om? it may have escaped your attention, but this is NOT a Christian website, and not all here adhere to the notion that the scriptures are God-breathed.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Reminds me of when ole craigers went nuts hearing about the vey kids being scheduled to go to a holocaust museum. Wanted to "protect their hearts"- ha. Most kids have been exposed to even more gruesome images on TV and video games.
Look what craigers did with the power he got over a little, insignificant hole in a cornfield cult outfit. Just imagine if he had power over a nation.
And all of this nonsense like "The Thirteenth tribe", "myth of the six million" and other such hogwash makes this kind of thing more possible.
The worst evil that exists seems to like to hide behind a few not-so-verifiable "facts".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve!
Well, it sounds to me like you are taking other posters to task regarding the scripture.
That would be like me taking you to task over something it says in the Koran. You obviously don't value the Koran as your source of faith or of truth, so why would it be appropriate for me to refer to something in that book?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Unlike a number of Christians who seem to be more preoccupied with the next life than this one, many Jewish people keep their focus on how to make the world we presently live in a better place.
Unlike certain "Christians" who seem to be more preoccupied with who will and won't be "seated in the heavenlies" a good many Jewish people prefer not to judge other's harshly but instead to focus on how they can be a better person.
So what exactly does John 14:6 mean? Does it mean you have to believe (mentally ascend to) the idea that Jesus is the Messiah? Or does it mean you have to model your life after him?
If it means the latter, what example did Jesus set? Did he sit in harsh judgement regarding who would and would not be in one of the many mansions in his Father's house? Or did he go out and by word and example teach, feed, and otherwise assist the "sinners"?
Did he stand among the religious ones who set laws for others, which they themselves did not adhere to? Or did he reprove them?
I have known a good number of wonderful Christians. Likewise I have known athiests who were more "Christian" than some who profess to be.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Now if a persons opinions on scripture or the Koran are not allowed, then that's an entirely different stow-ree. But such is not the case here and we don't always base what we post on others beliefs, likes or dislikes.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve!
None are so blind as those who will not see.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
It's not by works of righteousness, but by His grace alone..
It's not by works of righteousness, but by His grace alone..
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand I am complete in Him...halelujah Lord...
:)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
All right, ... who mixed the 'uppers' in Oldies milk?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Yeah well Oldies, lets just hope God doesn't judge you in the same manner that you judge others - judge not lest you be judged, eh?
BTW - despite what your hero taught, many Christians believe being "complete in him" is a growing process - as you grow in him you become complete in him. But you don't have to worry about that, sitting up there so much higher than everyone else and all.
Hmmm and that reminds me of another verse, about not being high minded - ah, nevermind you don't have to worry about what the rest of the Bible says, cause you're complete in him.
But wait - isn't there also a verse about receiving the grace of god in vain, but you don't care about that stuff, do ya.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
Sunesis, you have no idea how many personal questions you just answered for me. I saw the parallels between what I had seen in TWI and when the militias were in the news during the early 90s. I had heard of "liberty lobby" during that time and saw the connections between "Liberty Lobby," white supremist, neo-nazi, and militias based on my own research on the topic. I thought it particularly curious some of the garbage they spewed out and some of the stuff I'd seen advocated while in TWI. But I thought it was just a matter of being fellow-travellers because of a similar world-view.
Thanks to the information you provided, I now can see the direct linkage. OMG.
The funny part about all of this was that during the time that all of this was going on, I was in an AF unit where we flew the black helicopters that made all of these folks so paranoid (MH-53s for those who are interested).
Thank you very much for your information. You have NO idea how many questions you just answered for me.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Yeah,...thanks Sunesis.
You sure jarred the brain cells!
Those years....1976-1979 came flying back.....Wake Up America!....Malpacks....The New World Order.....Illuminati......33 Degree Masons....Ted Patrick and Cults.....Jim Jones.....Government Cover-ups......Seed Men
Even that 'music book'.......subliminal stuff in all rock music.
Everything,..........us verses 'the world.'
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
Skyrider,
Well, the part about Ted Patrick and 'cults' (his deprogramming campaign against them) is/was true, sorry to say.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Radar OReilly
Just a comment.....
As Sunesis said......the secret constitution, etc were distributed first to the 7th corps. HMMMMM who do we know that was 7th corps.....hmmmmm, SnakeGeer?
Many, many, many of vpw's stranger *concepts* began with his former coach driver. Snake was easily the MOST PARANOID and the most avid CONSPIRACY THEORY follower that I ever met. He was behind the illuminati garbage and the MALPACK garbage. He had a GREAT influence on vpw.
ror
Link to comment
Share on other sites
houseisarockin
I'm still stunned by that post of Sunesis on "Liberty Lobby" and haven't read past this post but had to stop and comment to you Abi.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
oldiesman - I can empathize with your attitude toward PFAL and Wierwille. I was involved with TWI for seven years in which I went WOW once, coordinated a twig for two years (where we put together and ran a PFAL class at the twig level), and spent the first two blocks in residence with the 16th Corps. During that time, I genuinely believed in PFAL and Wierwille. I defended them tooth and nail.
I left in '87 when I found out about the adultery, but for years, I still defended the integrity of PFAL. I was involved for nine more years with splinter groups, trying to resuscitate the good old days.
It didn't work.
As I studied the things we had been taught in PFAL, and tried to track them through the Word for myself, I realized that most of what Wierwille TAUGHT can't be tracked, because it's simply not there. Wierwille PREACHED a lot of things that were right, but he taught a lot of things that were dead wrong. It was my own study of the material covered in PFAL that opened my eyes to the depth of error Wierwille perpetrated in that class.
On January 26, '05, 11:23 (page 2, this thread), I wrote, ""oldiesman - How do you explain Wierwille's lie in PFAL about the content of Romans 9:4?"
On January 26, '05, 13:47 (page 3, this thread), you replied, "Steve, perhaps this is not the topic for this thread, though I'm always open to giving your accusations an ear."
I think my question is very much on topic. This thread is about Wierwille's attitude toward the Jews.
The Christian congregation at Rome was having some difficulties because of attitudes the Jewish and the Gentile believers were exhibiting toward each other. Much of the book of Romans was written with this incipient conflict in mind, and Romans 9-11 addresses it explicitly. Yet Wierwille taught that Romans 9-11 was not addressed to Christians.
On page 208 of the PFAL book, Wierwille quoted I Corinthians 10:32, "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God" and went on a few sentences later,
The sentence "The entire Bible is addressed to one or the other of these three groups" oversimplifies to the point of error. Parts of the Bible are addressed, not to "these three groups", but to individuals, and even subsets within these groups.
On Page 212 of PFAL Wierwille wrote,
On page 217 of PFAL Wierwille wrote,
First, notice that Wierwille quoted from each verse he referenced except Romans 9:4. Let's look at Romans 9:2-5 all together,
Wierwille wrote, "To whom is it addressed? Verse 4 says to the Israelites, the Judeans."
That, my patient brother, is a lie. Verse 4 says the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God and the promises were addressed to Israel. It does not say anything about THIS section of Romans being addressed TO Israel.
With all the verses Wierwille quoted directly, why did he NOT quote Romans 9:4? Perhaps because Wierwille taught that it said something other than what is actually written?
Wierwille went on, "Paul wrote in chapter 10 verse 1, 'Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer for Israel is, that they might be saved.' This is still addressed to Israel."
No, it is addressed to Paul's "brethren", his fellow Christians. There are two clues that tell us the "brethren" of Romans 10:1 are not the "brethren" of Romans 9:3.
First, in Romans 9:3 Paul qualifies the word "brethren" with the phrase "my kinsmen according to the flesh". There "brethren" DID refer to Israelites. When Paul used the word "brethren" without any qualifiers in Romans 10:1, he was addressing his fellow brothers in Christ at Rome.
Second, if Romans 10:1 was addressed to Israel, Paul would have written, "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for YOU is, that YOU might be saved." This is still not addressed TO Israel.
Remember, we must be continually conscious of the uses of "for" and "to". These two prepositions make the critical difference between truth and error.
So, oldiesman, Wierwille taught something that was manifestly untrue, "Verse 4 says to the Israelites, the Judeans." He taught this in the middle of a section of PFAL dedicated to the importance of paying attention to the prepositions "for" and "to", and to getting "To Whom Addressed" correct.
Did he do it out of incompetence of dishonesty?
Love,
Steve
Link to comment
Share on other sites
houseisarockin
Willis Carto the founder of "Liberty Lobby" was a devotee of Francis Parker Yockey. A man that REVERED Hitler. No wonder Carto founded the group "Institute for Historical Review" that promoted the Nazi Holocaust never happened.
A few of the political associates of Yockey's were:
German-American Bund
German American National Alliance
William Dudley Pelley's Silver Shirts
Ku Klux Klan
Sir Oswald Mosley's Union Movement
Union Movement
James H. Madole's National Renaisance Party
I don't appreciate the importance as it should be yet. But how much did VPW subscribe to Carto's way of thinking? I don't know this personally but after looking into this man a wee bit tonight I find it very distrubing that VPW would have given ear longer than five minutes.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
VP & CG........not to be confused with lcm's VP and Me transcripts.
The collaborating interests between vpw and cgeer could easily document an extensive study that drastically altered twi.....twi's trustees.....twi's corporate policies.....twi's corps. And, further....with copyright privileges in hand and "franchising pfal to geerite followers" the chasm widens.
Paranoia and Conspiracy Theories.......vpw and cgeer had similar and growing interests in the books and material they read. How deep these interests ran....who knows?
I do have one incident that has puzzled me all these years. I was sitting with vpw in his motorcoach discussing some things. Cgeer came into the coach briskly, looked at vp and said, "He's here......on grounds." Abruptly, they left without another word. Cgeer drove and they left hq grounds. Puzzled, I left the coach and never said a word to others.....thinking that, if spoken, it might endanger vpw or someone else.
For years, the vpw/cgeer relationship was far greater than many ever knew. Services rendered by cgeer.........coach driver, valet, bodyguard, conspiracy theorist, book enthusiast, dog trainer, corps coordinator, vpw mannerisms, etc.
Some could easily argue that it was a premeditated form of identity theft.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Check these out:
Newstates Review
Another Review
Newstates Constitution
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Thanks for the teaching.
:)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sunesis
I used to visit HQ in '71 while still in high school, we had moved from NY to Columbus, so it was an easy trip. We knew people there, would hang out in friends' units, etc. I had seen some spotlight magazines at one time - I forget exactly where or when - they were more like large pamplets. That's why when we got our new "secret constitutions" and there was the Spotlight subscription form, I thought, oh - nothing really about it, but oh, yeah, I've seen this before.
I think Igotout put a copy of the back cover here in a thread once - I think he still has his also.
I had always wondered where VP got all this "top secret" "heavy" government info he only shared in the advanced class. It wasn't until I read the book years later on staff that everything fell into place.
Also, quite a few of his top guys were avid readers of Soldier of Fortune Magazine - you know survival stuff, etc. I read it for awhile on the recommendation of one Rev. while on staff at hq. VPs bodyguards were sent for training at one of these militia camps in the southwest. I know they were thrown out of one, and ended up training at another. Just, a lot of b.s. stuff went on.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.