Not that I expect you to accept my opinion Satori, but I think that whether your point is right or wrong you are missing the bigger picture in this instance.
quote: WayGB? There's a thought. Is there a precedent? Why sure, keeds. Didn't Waydale's founder do the same thing on Trancenet before he left the fold? Wasn't one of his duties to .... with the posters, get them to fight, etc? Ya don't think they'd try that again, do ya?
The problem with Trancechat is that there was no moderation to speak of. I could sign in as Satori, and Satori could sign in as Radar, etc. (HCW can attest to it - he was a frequent poster there). If you didn't want to use a log-in name at all, it automatically put "No one" on your post.
I know that there were people at HQ's signing in as regulars there. Coolwaters can vouch for that one, too - lots of nasty posts were attributed to her that I now doubt she actually wrote. I'm pretty sure that Mr. L*nder contributed to that little mess (hi John - how goes it?).
So I don't think your conspiracy theory can be substantiated here at GS. Paw may allow people have plenty of rope to hang themselves with - but I believe he keeps an eye on things carefully enough to know whether the WayGB is posting here or not.
And honestly, I don't think people are giving Howard any good or bad advice regarding you, Satori. He's smart enough to figure it out for himself.
Not that I expect you to accept my opinion Satori, but I think that whether your point is right or wrong you are missing the bigger picture in this instance.
I probably won't accept it rascal, but you haven't even said what you think it is. What is the bigger picture, as you see it?
If I had died as a result of this accident, and I were looking down on Greasespot, would I rather see:
1) lots of sympathy for my tragic and untimely demise?
2) the truth about what really happened?
I guess I'd like both, but the truth would be more important, personally. How about you?
And honestly, I don't think people are giving Howard any good or bad advice regarding you, Satori. He's smart enough to figure it out for himself.
I don't doubt the latter statement, although it depends what you mean by "it." If you mean, he's smart enough to arrive at your opinion of me, then somebody like you might be inclined to help him get there a little sooner. Plausible, no?
As for Trancechat's vulnerabilities, and Greasespot's improvements, I could easily open an email account almost anywhere and call it Hope_R@freemail.com. I could throw in a few references from the thread, use your vocabulary, and who's gonna question it, as long as it sounds measured and sympathetic?
HCW could be having a "confidential" email correspondence with you, and you'd never know about it. If not you, anybody else. WayGB is "crafty" enough to figure that out, don't you think? Doesn't even need to be WayGB. Could be anybody with a dog in the fight.
Come to think of it, you Hope, of all people, should know about email/chat room campaigns and stuff. Right? (wink, wink)
Your point is well taken Satori, (I don`t want to fight with you, you can think circles around me) but if the messenger of the story of your demise feels under attack or is too busy feeling the need to defend himself,and or argue his pov....the story gets lost.....
I would rather see the messenger welcomed and made to feel comfortable, rather than feeling under attack.
The guy is trying to tell a very difficult story, he is trying to tell about a woman who placed her faith and trust in an organization, who was hurt, and then cast out when she was persieved as a burden.
A life tossed away, that is the big picture....but it can`t be told because you are so busy trying to make hcw see culpabiliy....there is plenty to go around....
He is not ready for that, you are not going to make him see that.....in your effort to be *right* the tragic story degenerated into forum wars, and in the end.....the *truth* has once again been lost.....
Neither your purpose nor his has been served, and something important was lost, that, imo is the bigger picture.
For one thing, I know HCW longer than you do Satori, and he also has the same 'says what he thinks, and too bad if you don't like it' attitude. And no, it isn't that he suddenly developed an 'attitude' towards you either. Sorry, but there is Yet Another Plot discredited for the trash bin.
I knew him when he posted on the now-defunct Trancenet (Trashnet as some of us affectionately called it). And true to form as you have experienced, he was the straight out kind of guy who would state outright what he felt about something, or somebody, and sometimes the targets of his posts had a 'what the hell was that for' feeling afterwards.
Yet, he was, and still is from what I can see, a fair minded kind of guy, so maybe after he reads more of your posts that are factually based, he'll reconsider. But I don't think he'll give you that opportunity with posts like the ones you directed at Catcup.
quote:And true to form as you have experienced, he was the straight oout kind of guy who would state outright what he felt about something, or somebody, and sometimes the targets of his posts had a 'what the hell was that for' feeling afterwards.
A life tossed away, that is the big picture....but it can`t be told because you are so busy trying to make hcw see culpabiliy....there is plenty to go around....
He is not ready for that, you are not going to make him see that.....
Neither your purpose nor his has been served, and something important was lost, that, imo is the bigger picture.
Yes, a life tossed. You didn't say lost, you said tossed. Tossed implies culpability.
Now, I have no way of knowing what HCW is ready for or not ready for, other than to believe what he says. He sure seemed ready.
At one point, referring to Rochelle's death, he said, "if you're mad now, just wait." That more than implies the element of culpability. It also sounds like he's ready to deal with it here.
So I do think I'm seeing the big picture, just the same.
When you are percieved as an antagonistic bully, your pov is lost.
I think that in your zeal, you may have inadvertantly cost this thread the bigger picture.
Yes, there is culpabiliy, but establishing it at the cost at this time is destructive....you have accomplished nothing, but shut down the lines of communication.
quote:And true to form as you have experienced, he was the straight oout kind of guy who would state outright what he felt about something, or somebody, and sometimes the targets of his posts had a 'what the hell was _that_ for' feeling afterwards.
How does being "straight out" agree with that?
Ie., he didn't exactly dance around the disagreement with you when he said 'Can't you READ?'. Ie., His approach is quite direct and blunt. And you reacted to that. as you did.
The "perception" did become a distraction, but I didn't create it. It was created for your "benefit" by a few others, both on and (I believe) off the thread, before the "fighting" even got started. HCW was reacting beforehand. Others too, over-reacting. Nobody will accept this without going back and looking for themselves, so I'm not going to try here.
to further clarify, what I meant by "and sometimes the targets of his posts had a 'what the hell was _that_ for' feeling afterwards." deals with the intensity of his posts rather than the clarity of them.
You say hcw needs to acknowledge culpability, it would be my opinion that you are as incapable of acknowledging your own.
Sometimes you have to ignore what those folks are trying to *create* even when you are right, as their purpose is served when things disintigrate into forum war.
There are some master manipulators here for sure.....but imo, when we respond to their ploys...when they create a fight....the information is lost and they WIN!
You say hcw needs to acknowledge culpability, it would be my opinion that you are as incapable of acknowledging your own.
Sometimes you have to ignore what the folks are trying to *create* even when you are right, as their purpose is served when things disintigrate into forum war.
I don't know what this means.
There are two "culpabilities" here.
1. TWI's culpability for the LEAD 104 accident, and all consequences, including Rochelle's subsequent depression and death.
2. the culpability for derailing this thread, mine or otherwise
I never said HCW was culpable for anything. Is that what you think, or was it something else.
I don't want HCW to acknowledge anything he doesn't want to. I was using the forum, as others did, to express my view of TWI's role in the accident. A number of other posters agreed with my view, in whole or in part.
I believe that made somebody very uncomfortable, and they effectively made the thread about me and my "antagonistic" ways.
I am extremely antagonistic toward TWI, and I believe, justifiably so. A long list of VPW's predatory actions are just the beginning of my antogonism. I wonder why some people take that very personally, unless they support TWI still.
Okay, there are manipulators. That's kind of what I'm saying, rascal. I've also said I regret some of my part in this. I've also said the manipulation goes beyond what we've seen on the thread, and may be from outside of Greasespot.
The distraction has occurred, focus has been diverted, information has been lost. Someone elses pupose has been served....regardless of your/our point.
Believing no one other than himself is capable of independent thought, Satori believes he's being ganged up on by people "coaching" HCW.
It's either arrogance or paranoia.
And for anyone who cares to check, I was minding my own business before Satori addressed me as "Catbox" and made the comment about Festivus.
A man who declares to be concerned about the truth who says his false accusations against me were not really a lie because he believed them to be true.
This man is more concerned about the truth regarding how an inanimate object was built, than the truth about a human being.
Don't fool yourself into thinking he gives a rat's foot about Rochelle. He's more interested in covering his.
OK Satory, so how do we keep from falling into the same stupid traps from the outside manipulators??
I think that I understand, there is a poster or two that will not allow me to post unchallenged, I am called a liar, nuts, whatever, sometimes if the thread is important enough, I have to refrain from defending myself, or just stay off sltogether in order to just to keep the flow going ....or else it degenerates into rascal vs twi defenders....it is the only way I know of to keep from being manipulated....I welcom any thoughts.
I have been in pain, each and every day since the ACCIDENT at LEAD 104 (GRRRRrrrr.....).
There was a period of time when the pain was so great, each and every day, all day long, all night long. while I ate, played, did whatever. It was so LOUD that I could hardly hear my own thoughts.
My chiropractor gave me a transcutaneous, electrical, nerve stimulator, (TENS) unit, which at times I had to adjust to its highest setting to get relief. The relief from the TENS unit was lessened by the irritating greif from constant, incessant questions like, "Why you wearing a PAGER?"
Its not a pager.
It LOOKs like a pager ???
Ok. But its not.
Well what IS it?
It a TENS unit.
What's that?
And so on, on , on , on , and on.
The pain felt better than that.
I went to work for the same BOT that a certain one has made it his "mission in life" in this thread to make sure all of us who already know what bastards they were; he wants to make sure we know that.
ESPECIALLY so, seeing as the thread itself stands, the evidence in it from a legal witness, the the events spoken of... again the thread shows undeniable information; so they cannot say,
"Oh yes we DO care for God's people."
Next time somebody says that TWI is SOOO wonderful. You can say, "Ok, what about Rochelle?" Then watch the quizzical look on their face. If you ask Rosalie. She will most likely frown first then give you s surapy sweet, positively spun answer thar endears you to HER, Rosalie, not her, Rochelle.
I reread the thread my self over the past day or so. I was considered cool with satori001 until I made a statement to this effect:
I don't blame Kevin Smith for what he did that day, NONE of it.
Through all of the years of pain, someone who was a GS adversary of mine, on the recieving end of some very terse words from me while on my virgin tour of these waters, said something to the effect of:
If anybout would have place to point fingers about the LEAD accident it would be HCW, and HE didn't.
That spoke to me concerning the character of that individual.
I have my own reasons for sharing this, my story, with all of you. One of the primary and simplest of which is that I wanted you to know. There are other reasons also.
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HCW
As far as standing up, talking back. People did that a lot, especially after POP. People got "mad as hell, and we're not gonna take it anymore!" Of my personal pet peeves was the whole money thing. T
HAPe4me
I never participated in it, but I always thought it sounded like "Outward Bound", which has been measurably more successful in achieving it's participant's goals.
So_crates
Yes, but then there's the counter teaching: If you obey the MOG, God will bless you. So what do you do when the MOG orders you to act recklessly? Rhetorical question. SoCrates
rascal
Not that I expect you to accept my opinion Satori, but I think that whether your point is right or wrong you are missing the bigger picture in this instance.
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Hope R.
The problem with Trancechat is that there was no moderation to speak of. I could sign in as Satori, and Satori could sign in as Radar, etc. (HCW can attest to it - he was a frequent poster there). If you didn't want to use a log-in name at all, it automatically put "No one" on your post.
I know that there were people at HQ's signing in as regulars there. Coolwaters can vouch for that one, too - lots of nasty posts were attributed to her that I now doubt she actually wrote. I'm pretty sure that Mr. L*nder contributed to that little mess (hi John - how goes it?).
So I don't think your conspiracy theory can be substantiated here at GS. Paw may allow people have plenty of rope to hang themselves with - but I believe he keeps an eye on things carefully enough to know whether the WayGB is posting here or not.
And honestly, I don't think people are giving Howard any good or bad advice regarding you, Satori. He's smart enough to figure it out for himself.
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satori001
If I had died as a result of this accident, and I were looking down on Greasespot, would I rather see:
1) lots of sympathy for my tragic and untimely demise?
2) the truth about what really happened?
I guess I'd like both, but the truth would be more important, personally. How about you?
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satori001
As for Trancechat's vulnerabilities, and Greasespot's improvements, I could easily open an email account almost anywhere and call it Hope_R@freemail.com. I could throw in a few references from the thread, use your vocabulary, and who's gonna question it, as long as it sounds measured and sympathetic?
HCW could be having a "confidential" email correspondence with you, and you'd never know about it. If not you, anybody else. WayGB is "crafty" enough to figure that out, don't you think? Doesn't even need to be WayGB. Could be anybody with a dog in the fight.
Come to think of it, you Hope, of all people, should know about email/chat room campaigns and stuff. Right? (wink, wink)
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rascal
Your point is well taken Satori, (I don`t want to fight with you, you can think circles around me) but if the messenger of the story of your demise feels under attack or is too busy feeling the need to defend himself,and or argue his pov....the story gets lost.....
I would rather see the messenger welcomed and made to feel comfortable, rather than feeling under attack.
The guy is trying to tell a very difficult story, he is trying to tell about a woman who placed her faith and trust in an organization, who was hurt, and then cast out when she was persieved as a burden.
A life tossed away, that is the big picture....but it can`t be told because you are so busy trying to make hcw see culpabiliy....there is plenty to go around....
He is not ready for that, you are not going to make him see that.....in your effort to be *right* the tragic story degenerated into forum wars, and in the end.....the *truth* has once again been lost.....
Neither your purpose nor his has been served, and something important was lost, that, imo is the bigger picture.
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GarthP2000
For one thing, I know HCW longer than you do Satori, and he also has the same 'says what he thinks, and too bad if you don't like it' attitude. And no, it isn't that he suddenly developed an 'attitude' towards you either. Sorry, but there is Yet Another Plot discredited for the trash bin.
I knew him when he posted on the now-defunct Trancenet (Trashnet as some of us affectionately called it). And true to form as you have experienced, he was the straight out kind of guy who would state outright what he felt about something, or somebody, and sometimes the targets of his posts had a 'what the hell was that for' feeling afterwards.
Yet, he was, and still is from what I can see, a fair minded kind of guy, so maybe after he reads more of your posts that are factually based, he'll reconsider. But I don't think he'll give you that opportunity with posts like the ones you directed at Catcup.
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satori001
Garth, you don't agree. I kind of expect that.
What did you mean by this?
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satori001
Now, I have no way of knowing what HCW is ready for or not ready for, other than to believe what he says. He sure seemed ready.
At one point, referring to Rochelle's death, he said, "if you're mad now, just wait." That more than implies the element of culpability. It also sounds like he's ready to deal with it here.
So I do think I'm seeing the big picture, just the same.
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rascal
When you are percieved as an antagonistic bully, your pov is lost.
I think that in your zeal, you may have inadvertantly cost this thread the bigger picture.
Yes, there is culpabiliy, but establishing it at the cost at this time is destructive....you have accomplished nothing, but shut down the lines of communication.
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GarthP2000
Ie., he didn't exactly dance around the disagreement with you when he said 'Can't you READ?'. Ie., His approach is quite direct and blunt. And you reacted to that. as you did.
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satori001
The "perception" did become a distraction, but I didn't create it. It was created for your "benefit" by a few others, both on and (I believe) off the thread, before the "fighting" even got started. HCW was reacting beforehand. Others too, over-reacting. Nobody will accept this without going back and looking for themselves, so I'm not going to try here.
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GarthP2000
to further clarify, what I meant by "and sometimes the targets of his posts had a 'what the hell was _that_ for' feeling afterwards." deals with the intensity of his posts rather than the clarity of them.
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rascal
You say hcw needs to acknowledge culpability, it would be my opinion that you are as incapable of acknowledging your own.
Sometimes you have to ignore what those folks are trying to *create* even when you are right, as their purpose is served when things disintigrate into forum war.
There are some master manipulators here for sure.....but imo, when we respond to their ploys...when they create a fight....the information is lost and they WIN!
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satori001
There are two "culpabilities" here.
1. TWI's culpability for the LEAD 104 accident, and all consequences, including Rochelle's subsequent depression and death.
2. the culpability for derailing this thread, mine or otherwise
I never said HCW was culpable for anything. Is that what you think, or was it something else.
I don't want HCW to acknowledge anything he doesn't want to. I was using the forum, as others did, to express my view of TWI's role in the accident. A number of other posters agreed with my view, in whole or in part.
I believe that made somebody very uncomfortable, and they effectively made the thread about me and my "antagonistic" ways.
I am extremely antagonistic toward TWI, and I believe, justifiably so. A long list of VPW's predatory actions are just the beginning of my antogonism. I wonder why some people take that very personally, unless they support TWI still.
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rascal
I added to what I wrote to try to clarify satori.
I don
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satori001
Okay, there are manipulators. That's kind of what I'm saying, rascal. I've also said I regret some of my part in this. I've also said the manipulation goes beyond what we've seen on the thread, and may be from outside of Greasespot.
Live and learn.
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rascal
I added to what I posted to try to clarify.
The distraction has occurred, focus has been diverted, information has been lost. Someone elses pupose has been served....regardless of your/our point.
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Catcup
Believing no one other than himself is capable of independent thought, Satori believes he's being ganged up on by people "coaching" HCW.
It's either arrogance or paranoia.
And for anyone who cares to check, I was minding my own business before Satori addressed me as "Catbox" and made the comment about Festivus.
A man who declares to be concerned about the truth who says his false accusations against me were not really a lie because he believed them to be true.
This man is more concerned about the truth regarding how an inanimate object was built, than the truth about a human being.
Don't fool yourself into thinking he gives a rat's foot about Rochelle. He's more interested in covering his.
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rascal
OK Satory, so how do we keep from falling into the same stupid traps from the outside manipulators??
I think that I understand, there is a poster or two that will not allow me to post unchallenged, I am called a liar, nuts, whatever, sometimes if the thread is important enough, I have to refrain from defending myself, or just stay off sltogether in order to just to keep the flow going ....or else it degenerates into rascal vs twi defenders....it is the only way I know of to keep from being manipulated....I welcom any thoughts.
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HCW
I have been in pain, each and every day since the ACCIDENT at LEAD 104 (GRRRRrrrr.....).
There was a period of time when the pain was so great, each and every day, all day long, all night long. while I ate, played, did whatever. It was so LOUD that I could hardly hear my own thoughts.
My chiropractor gave me a transcutaneous, electrical, nerve stimulator, (TENS) unit, which at times I had to adjust to its highest setting to get relief. The relief from the TENS unit was lessened by the irritating greif from constant, incessant questions like, "Why you wearing a PAGER?"
Its not a pager.
It LOOKs like a pager ???
Ok. But its not.
Well what IS it?
It a TENS unit.
What's that?
And so on, on , on , on , and on.
The pain felt better than that.
I went to work for the same BOT that a certain one has made it his "mission in life" in this thread to make sure all of us who already know what bastards they were; he wants to make sure we know that.
ESPECIALLY so, seeing as the thread itself stands, the evidence in it from a legal witness, the the events spoken of... again the thread shows undeniable information; so they cannot say,
"Oh yes we DO care for God's people."
Next time somebody says that TWI is SOOO wonderful. You can say, "Ok, what about Rochelle?" Then watch the quizzical look on their face. If you ask Rosalie. She will most likely frown first then give you s surapy sweet, positively spun answer thar endears you to HER, Rosalie, not her, Rochelle.
I reread the thread my self over the past day or so. I was considered cool with satori001 until I made a statement to this effect:
I don't blame Kevin Smith for what he did that day, NONE of it.
Through all of the years of pain, someone who was a GS adversary of mine, on the recieving end of some very terse words from me while on my virgin tour of these waters, said something to the effect of:
If anybout would have place to point fingers about the LEAD accident it would be HCW, and HE didn't.
That spoke to me concerning the character of that individual.
I have my own reasons for sharing this, my story, with all of you. One of the primary and simplest of which is that I wanted you to know. There are other reasons also.
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rascal
Thankyou HCW.
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satori001
Speaking of "venom," hey, Catcup's back. Praise Allah. Your 2nd post was not "minding your own business." I should have ignored it anyway.
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outandabout
Hey, I'm glad you did.
This thread (before some of the derailments) has been one of the BEST ever on GSC, in my opinion.
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satori001
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