I'm fascinated by history, what's really gone on before us that is (as best as that can be determined). And where the road will lead us is still interesting, though tempered a good deal by the constant political unrest and potential (inevitable?) cataclysmic destruction of civilization by some religious geek or other.
But woo-woo, pseudo scientific claptrap has zero appeal for me. Dowsing has been thoroughly discredited in countless clinical trials over the years. Seers, shaman, gurus, and all sorts of holymen who divine the future or give grave warnings of impending doom have been shown to have about the same degree of accuracy as simple chance.
The more interesting question to me, especially in light of our shared cult involvement, is why people give credence to such stuff at all. It certainly isn't because of the success rate of the paranormal practitioners. For in that regard, their record is dismal.
..."My carpenter even told me, upon restoring my bathroom, that he leaves coins and bills in the walls, as do others before him...
I know of a stained glass master who does the same...leaving trinkets for next generations to find."
Hiya Wacky Funster
-->
I do that type of thing especially when I trim out a set of interior stairs. I place my name and those who performed and date the project under the first tread and rise of the stairs and fasten shut. I will usually place the info in a plastic container: jiffy jar, coke bottle, etc.
They said it's because the earth's energies are shifting
I am reminded of a show I just watched- NOVA, I think. It showed a scientist measuring the exact location of the North Magnetic Pole. It mentioned that the "Rate of Drift" has increased dramaticaly over the last few years.
Why do you suppose it is that despite the fact that in virtually all the well-designed clinical tests of dowsing, even though the dowsers never averaged better than would be expected of chance, that so many are so eager to believe it?
What is it about woo-woo science that some find sooo appealing?
Why do you suppose it is that despite the fact that in virtually all the well-designed clinical tests of dowsing, even though the dowsers never averaged better than would be expected of chance, that so many are so eager to believe it?
I used to work at a state forest, back in Indiana. Someone *promoted* this idea of dowsing, water-witching -- whatever it is called, and just on a lark -- me and a couple of others tried it.
Well (woops -- no pun intended there!) :D--> it worked for all of us. The person promoting what we were doing, maintained that we needed a certain kind of wood, yada, yada, yada and all that other glorious *stuff*.
I don't know how it worked (scientifically - or otherwise), but worked it did. I'm with you on this one. It left me scratching my head, and thinking --- "hmmmmmm".
I never acknowledged the validity of such, until it happened to me and my co-workers. And while I could accuse my co-workers of *faking it*, when that stick pointed to the ground (for me), and water was found -- I knew I was not faking it.
Meebe there is something to be said for the *powers of nature*. I don't know.
Yeah, I've done it too. I've also used Ouija boards and even pendulums to "divine" this or that. Sure, it seems to work, as long as you don't look too closely.
With dowsing the device one uses is always an inherently unstable sort of thing. The slightest twitch and "LOOK! It's pointing towards water!" But, there's an awful lot of water out there.
On my property, when I had a well drilled several years ago, I walked out with the driller and pointed to a spot on the ground, "I think the well should go here" I said. My reasoning was - it was over 200' from my septic system and it was close to the old pumphouse yet off the access road. Lo and behold, 300' down they hit water - 25 gals. a minute worth of it. WOW! I was a successful dowser without even using a stick!
Take a look at the skepdic site and look up Clever Hans for a classic case of self-delusion.
If dowsing really worked, how come they've NEVER been able to pass a simple clinical trial?
That's the beauty of the human race...we're all different with different talents and gifts...thank god!!!!
This thread has quickly turned into a "witch" hunt, and that's really not what I had intended.
I was talking about keepers of the earth. Surely bridge builders, carpenters and stained glass church window restorers, in addition to the masons (which is an entirely different breed) are NOT the "witchy" types. ;)-->
There are people here preserving beach plums and their lineage, which I think is fascinating... so they don't go extinct.
In a few weeks I am going to the Pow Wow, where decendents of the Indians that met the Pilgrims abide...I think that's fantastic!!!!
I try to consciously support these things, in my small way...
...and I will take a risk to say this...(because I'll probably get slammed here)...
I refuse to go to Walmart, Home Depot and any other large chains that are taking away from the charm of my America.
We support the "arts" in other countries by buying their wares...but how about supporting the arts in this country?
We buy wares from women made in third world countries, while negating wares made by the women in this country...i.e. socks knitted in Vermont, quilts made in Tennessee, pottery thrown by locals with local clay, etc.
I support small businesses and try to buy local. I am beginning to make my own clothes and shawls...and stop this big business nonsense the country has been turning to.
I feel fully conscious. I am pretty sensitive. I've watched the change in standards and focuses and not only does it miff me that people seem to be sleeping at the switch, it also makes me sick.
Wacky, I'm sorry. I suppose my question prompted the naysayers to chime in. I could have looked up dowsers on the web, but I didn't want a clinical, scientific or skeptical answer. I wanted to hear a personal answer including personal experience.
I think it's cool that carpenters leave little things behind. I never knew that! Song, I imagine people finding your little treasures get a warm fuzzy feeling and you put a grin on their face. You, too, mstar1! :D--> Imagine the grin and giggles as they find your hidden treasures.
I also never knew that bridge builders ran in clans all over the country repairing old bridges. That's cool. I always just thought of the engineers and hard hats and "big business" type bridge building.
People would do well, too, to pay attention to the Aboriginis. I'm so amazed that they have been successful at maintaining their culture, history and attunements to the earth. Animals have incredible instincts, too, as you said. How have we gotten so far from that?
I would love to buy more hand-crafted items and to be more crafty myself. I admire that in you, Wacky. :)-->
I used to know a man by the name of Cliff Newland who lived in Crane, Texas. He used to dowse for Exxon, Shell and some other oil companies back in the 50's, 60's and early 70's.
They paid him well.
I was always very skeptical, but since I came to these hills and seen a few water wells doswed including my own, that skepticism has waned.
After I've lived in these hills a few years, and seen some of the old timers doing things their old time ways, I realize there's great deal more to this heaven and earth than was in my philosophy (to paraphrase Shakespeare).
The hills, the dirt, the rocks, the flora and fauna, the streams, creeks, waterfalls and wild things are always telling us something.
My dad, who was born in 1915, could find water using find water using a branch from a tree. He also taught me how to do it. The challenge of doing this Maine is that there is a lot of limestone, bedrock and granite under the topsoil. Finding a good vein of water isn't always easy.
He would first look for branch from a willow or white burch tree that was dry. He's strip any old leaves or smaller branches off it so that all he was left with was a big "Y" shaped branch. He'd hold the ends of the top of the "Y" in his hands, at about waist-level, carrying the branch so that it was parallel to the ground. Then he would begin to walk around an area where he thought there might be water. The wood, because it was dry, would pull down towards the water source. As another poster said, finding water wasn't hard - it was finding the best source that was the challenge.
There are some woods that are just naturally drawn to water - like burch or willow. A white burch tree's leaves will turn bottom-side up before a rain shower so they are facing the clouds. It's another way you can tell if overcast skies mean rain is coming or not.
I don't think this is "woo-woo science" as some say. I think it's using natural signs and natural "tools", for lack of a better word, to get a job done. It's not uncommon here in rural New England to still hear of people finding water using this method. I think it's really just "old science".
I'm not sure I understand the question. A skeptic, as I understand it, is simply one who expects a certain degree of proof before he's willing to believe in something.
Obviously, that's a way of thinking that's not much appreciated, at least around these parts.
Is it any wonder that we all fell for the promises of "signs, miracles, and wonders" crap despite scant evidence in that regard?
I was taken in by my unbridled credulity once. I certainly don't intend to go there again. How often do you want to get beaten with the same stick?
Sometimes these earth things are signs,miracles and wonders...
I guess I just see things bigger than the word of god. vaster. not the one and only twi taught us to believe.
My question to you is...why can't dowsing work? Perhaps it's just not your thing...but for some, like chas's pappy it worked...and Ron sees it work...Perhaps you've just never seen a true dowser...Perhaps it really does exist and you just haven't had the priviledge yet to witness it
I guess I'm tired of seeing the "same old" "same old".
I drove to Asheville a few years ago and at every rest stop was a Wendy's, a Burger King and a KFC...ugh!!! No wonder we've all turned into fatso's!!!!
Why can't we just keep the good 'ole simple diners of yor...mom and pop owned...part of America, if you ask me...
I guess I'll add diners to the list of "Keepers of...and Witness to" America.
I was raised to always leave a part of my history behind for future generations to find...bury something in the back yard...hide something in the basement...put something behind the a brick in the mantle...that kind of stuff.
Do you remember the time capsule craze of the '70's? Maybe it was just around here, I dunno, but all throughout Jr High and High School each class would bury a time capsule of information about us somewhere on the school grounds.
I've participated in the building of 2 churches, one college, an apartment complex and several homes. In each case there was a corner stone. Behind each corner stone were put documents concerning the building and the people associated with the building...complete with dates, current newspapers and other significant documentation describing our times.
One of my most favorite things to do is to go on Scavenger Hunts. It's a fund raising thing I learned at church as a little girl...and we also used it as a game as we got older.
The game/fund raising is played in various ways, but the main point is that there are clues to Treasures hidden all over the city. People get into groups of 4 or 5 and each group is given a list of Treasures they must find. The first group back with all Treasures found wins a 1st Prize, 2nd back wins 2nd Prize, 3rd back wins 3rd Prize.
Anyway, I LOVE to leave around little 'treasures' of information about my kids and our family at certain times of our lives. A couple of years later, I give the kids a list and the clues and tell them to go find the 'treasure' of their history. It's great fun! Except they're too old to appreciate it now...or maybe not old enough yet.
Why can't dowsing work? Well, I suppose if you want to nullify the laws of physics, I guess there's no reason. No reason at all - for anything.
Gawd, if anything's possible, if there's no reliable way of determining how anything will react or to tell how something will work, then we're going through life totally at the mercy of whatever capricious circumstance the "gods" care to throw at us. There's no science, no technology, no way to plan beyond the next minute or two. We're helpless pawns in a world without rules.
And the fact that there are numerous people who have anecdotal evidence as to the efficaciousness of dowsing means nothing.
No more than Uncle Joe testifying as to the great healing powers of Doctor Feelgood's miracle elixir.
I thought about it a little more and realized that I've actually picked out the site for several wells in the last few years. I actually drilled a couple of wells a few summers ago, and I've set numerous well pumps, as well as advising landowners on lots of matters with regards to their wells. And so far, I've yet to have a "dry hole". Does that mean, as has been suggested (rather facetiously, I suspect), that I am a gifted Shaman? No? But look at the results I've had! 100% effective!
What if I was a believer in dowsing and had used a stick to tell me where to place those wells and then got the same results? You think I might be pretty well disposed to completely deluding myself as to how effective "dowsing" is? Yeah, I'd think so too...
(BTW, as an aside, just how the hell is water supposed to pull on a stick anyway? Does that make any sense at all?)
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Belle
I've never even heard of such things, if so, not enough to even think about them. I'm fascinated! Tell me more!
What's a dowser?
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dmiller
Belle -- (from where I come from) a dowser is someone who can *witch water* with a forked stick.
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dmiller
I bet he didn't leave the bill for your restoration in the wall!!
:D-->
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George Aar
I'm fascinated by history, what's really gone on before us that is (as best as that can be determined). And where the road will lead us is still interesting, though tempered a good deal by the constant political unrest and potential (inevitable?) cataclysmic destruction of civilization by some religious geek or other.
But woo-woo, pseudo scientific claptrap has zero appeal for me. Dowsing has been thoroughly discredited in countless clinical trials over the years. Seers, shaman, gurus, and all sorts of holymen who divine the future or give grave warnings of impending doom have been shown to have about the same degree of accuracy as simple chance.
The more interesting question to me, especially in light of our shared cult involvement, is why people give credence to such stuff at all. It certainly isn't because of the success rate of the paranormal practitioners. For in that regard, their record is dismal.
O.K., I'm a wet blanket. So sue me...
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Allan
Living in Australia which is very dry in a number of places,I have seen men, women and kids doing the 'water thing' with forked sticks.
It actually works more often than the 'scientific' method of finding the stuff !!
I repeat, hard for a three year old kid to be savvy enough to make the stick do what it does.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
..."My carpenter even told me, upon restoring my bathroom, that he leaves coins and bills in the walls, as do others before him...
I know of a stained glass master who does the same...leaving trinkets for next generations to find."
Hiya Wacky Funster
I do that type of thing especially when I trim out a set of interior stairs. I place my name and those who performed and date the project under the first tread and rise of the stairs and fasten shut. I will usually place the info in a plastic container: jiffy jar, coke bottle, etc.
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ckeer
I am reminded of a show I just watched- NOVA, I think. It showed a scientist measuring the exact location of the North Magnetic Pole. It mentioned that the "Rate of Drift" has increased dramaticaly over the last few years.
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George Aar
Here's a bit more about dowsing:
http://skepdic.com/dowsing.html
Why do you suppose it is that despite the fact that in virtually all the well-designed clinical tests of dowsing, even though the dowsers never averaged better than would be expected of chance, that so many are so eager to believe it?
What is it about woo-woo science that some find sooo appealing?
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Wacky Funster
Hey Wildthing
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dmiller
Hey there George.
:)-->
You said:
I used to work at a state forest, back in Indiana. Someone *promoted* this idea of dowsing, water-witching -- whatever it is called, and just on a lark -- me and a couple of others tried it.
Well (woops -- no pun intended there!)
:D--> it worked for all of us. The person promoting what we were doing, maintained that we needed a certain kind of wood, yada, yada, yada and all that other glorious *stuff*.
I don't know how it worked (scientifically - or otherwise), but worked it did. I'm with you on this one. It left me scratching my head, and thinking --- "hmmmmmm".
I never acknowledged the validity of such, until it happened to me and my co-workers. And while I could accuse my co-workers of *faking it*, when that stick pointed to the ground (for me), and water was found -- I knew I was not faking it.
Meebe there is something to be said for the *powers of nature*. I don't know.
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George Aar
Dave,
Yeah, I've done it too. I've also used Ouija boards and even pendulums to "divine" this or that. Sure, it seems to work, as long as you don't look too closely.
With dowsing the device one uses is always an inherently unstable sort of thing. The slightest twitch and "LOOK! It's pointing towards water!" But, there's an awful lot of water out there.
On my property, when I had a well drilled several years ago, I walked out with the driller and pointed to a spot on the ground, "I think the well should go here" I said. My reasoning was - it was over 200' from my septic system and it was close to the old pumphouse yet off the access road. Lo and behold, 300' down they hit water - 25 gals. a minute worth of it. WOW! I was a successful dowser without even using a stick!
Take a look at the skepdic site and look up Clever Hans for a classic case of self-delusion.
If dowsing really worked, how come they've NEVER been able to pass a simple clinical trial?
Not once, not ever.
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mstar1
I always suspected you were the one true Shaman around here!
Gonna have to get you a feather headdress and some rattles now...
...Maybe the magic/mystic part is that Wack's friend gets paid by people to travel all over the world for doing what comes naturally.
I'd take that
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Wacky Funster
It truly is a gift...and not everyone has it.
That's the beauty of the human race...we're all different with different talents and gifts...thank god!!!!
This thread has quickly turned into a "witch" hunt, and that's really not what I had intended.
I was talking about keepers of the earth. Surely bridge builders, carpenters and stained glass church window restorers, in addition to the masons (which is an entirely different breed) are NOT the "witchy" types.
;)-->
There are people here preserving beach plums and their lineage, which I think is fascinating... so they don't go extinct.
In a few weeks I am going to the Pow Wow, where decendents of the Indians that met the Pilgrims abide...I think that's fantastic!!!!
I try to consciously support these things, in my small way...
...and I will take a risk to say this...(because I'll probably get slammed here)...
I refuse to go to Walmart, Home Depot and any other large chains that are taking away from the charm of my America.
We support the "arts" in other countries by buying their wares...but how about supporting the arts in this country?
We buy wares from women made in third world countries, while negating wares made by the women in this country...i.e. socks knitted in Vermont, quilts made in Tennessee, pottery thrown by locals with local clay, etc.
I support small businesses and try to buy local. I am beginning to make my own clothes and shawls...and stop this big business nonsense the country has been turning to.
I feel fully conscious. I am pretty sensitive. I've watched the change in standards and focuses and not only does it miff me that people seem to be sleeping at the switch, it also makes me sick.
Wow...good morning!!!!
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Belle
Wacky, I'm sorry. I suppose my question prompted the naysayers to chime in. I could have looked up dowsers on the web, but I didn't want a clinical, scientific or skeptical answer. I wanted to hear a personal answer including personal experience.
I think it's cool that carpenters leave little things behind. I never knew that! Song, I imagine people finding your little treasures get a warm fuzzy feeling and you put a grin on their face. You, too, mstar1!
:D--> Imagine the grin and giggles as they find your hidden treasures.
I also never knew that bridge builders ran in clans all over the country repairing old bridges. That's cool. I always just thought of the engineers and hard hats and "big business" type bridge building.
People would do well, too, to pay attention to the Aboriginis. I'm so amazed that they have been successful at maintaining their culture, history and attunements to the earth. Animals have incredible instincts, too, as you said. How have we gotten so far from that?
I would love to buy more hand-crafted items and to be more crafty myself. I admire that in you, Wacky.
:)-->
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Ron G.
I used to know a man by the name of Cliff Newland who lived in Crane, Texas. He used to dowse for Exxon, Shell and some other oil companies back in the 50's, 60's and early 70's.
They paid him well.
I was always very skeptical, but since I came to these hills and seen a few water wells doswed including my own, that skepticism has waned.
After I've lived in these hills a few years, and seen some of the old timers doing things their old time ways, I realize there's great deal more to this heaven and earth than was in my philosophy (to paraphrase Shakespeare).
The hills, the dirt, the rocks, the flora and fauna, the streams, creeks, waterfalls and wild things are always telling us something.
We have but to learn to listen.
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ChasUFarley
My dad, who was born in 1915, could find water using find water using a branch from a tree. He also taught me how to do it. The challenge of doing this Maine is that there is a lot of limestone, bedrock and granite under the topsoil. Finding a good vein of water isn't always easy.
He would first look for branch from a willow or white burch tree that was dry. He's strip any old leaves or smaller branches off it so that all he was left with was a big "Y" shaped branch. He'd hold the ends of the top of the "Y" in his hands, at about waist-level, carrying the branch so that it was parallel to the ground. Then he would begin to walk around an area where he thought there might be water. The wood, because it was dry, would pull down towards the water source. As another poster said, finding water wasn't hard - it was finding the best source that was the challenge.
There are some woods that are just naturally drawn to water - like burch or willow. A white burch tree's leaves will turn bottom-side up before a rain shower so they are facing the clouds. It's another way you can tell if overcast skies mean rain is coming or not.
I don't think this is "woo-woo science" as some say. I think it's using natural signs and natural "tools", for lack of a better word, to get a job done. It's not uncommon here in rural New England to still hear of people finding water using this method. I think it's really just "old science".
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
George Aar,
I dig your skeptic insight.
Is there a gig about skeptics and their validity?
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George Aar
A skeptic's validity?
I'm not sure I understand the question. A skeptic, as I understand it, is simply one who expects a certain degree of proof before he's willing to believe in something.
Obviously, that's a way of thinking that's not much appreciated, at least around these parts.
Is it any wonder that we all fell for the promises of "signs, miracles, and wonders" crap despite scant evidence in that regard?
I was taken in by my unbridled credulity once. I certainly don't intend to go there again. How often do you want to get beaten with the same stick?
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excathedra
i enjoyed that adjective "woo-woo"
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Wacky Funster
Funny you should say that, George...
Sometimes these earth things are signs,miracles and wonders...
I guess I just see things bigger than the word of god. vaster. not the one and only twi taught us to believe.
My question to you is...why can't dowsing work? Perhaps it's just not your thing...but for some, like chas's pappy it worked...and Ron sees it work...Perhaps you've just never seen a true dowser...Perhaps it really does exist and you just haven't had the priviledge yet to witness it
I guess I'm tired of seeing the "same old" "same old".
I drove to Asheville a few years ago and at every rest stop was a Wendy's, a Burger King and a KFC...ugh!!! No wonder we've all turned into fatso's!!!!
Why can't we just keep the good 'ole simple diners of yor...mom and pop owned...part of America, if you ask me...
I guess I'll add diners to the list of "Keepers of...and Witness to" America.
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CoolWaters
Wacky,
I was raised to always leave a part of my history behind for future generations to find...bury something in the back yard...hide something in the basement...put something behind the a brick in the mantle...that kind of stuff.
Do you remember the time capsule craze of the '70's? Maybe it was just around here, I dunno, but all throughout Jr High and High School each class would bury a time capsule of information about us somewhere on the school grounds.
I've participated in the building of 2 churches, one college, an apartment complex and several homes. In each case there was a corner stone. Behind each corner stone were put documents concerning the building and the people associated with the building...complete with dates, current newspapers and other significant documentation describing our times.
One of my most favorite things to do is to go on Scavenger Hunts. It's a fund raising thing I learned at church as a little girl...and we also used it as a game as we got older.
The game/fund raising is played in various ways, but the main point is that there are clues to Treasures hidden all over the city. People get into groups of 4 or 5 and each group is given a list of Treasures they must find. The first group back with all Treasures found wins a 1st Prize, 2nd back wins 2nd Prize, 3rd back wins 3rd Prize.
Anyway, I LOVE to leave around little 'treasures' of information about my kids and our family at certain times of our lives. A couple of years later, I give the kids a list and the clues and tell them to go find the 'treasure' of their history. It's great fun! Except they're too old to appreciate it now...or maybe not old enough yet.
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George Aar
.
Against my better judgement, I guess I'll reply.
Why can't dowsing work? Well, I suppose if you want to nullify the laws of physics, I guess there's no reason. No reason at all - for anything.
Gawd, if anything's possible, if there's no reliable way of determining how anything will react or to tell how something will work, then we're going through life totally at the mercy of whatever capricious circumstance the "gods" care to throw at us. There's no science, no technology, no way to plan beyond the next minute or two. We're helpless pawns in a world without rules.
And the fact that there are numerous people who have anecdotal evidence as to the efficaciousness of dowsing means nothing.
No more than Uncle Joe testifying as to the great healing powers of Doctor Feelgood's miracle elixir.
I thought about it a little more and realized that I've actually picked out the site for several wells in the last few years. I actually drilled a couple of wells a few summers ago, and I've set numerous well pumps, as well as advising landowners on lots of matters with regards to their wells. And so far, I've yet to have a "dry hole". Does that mean, as has been suggested (rather facetiously, I suspect), that I am a gifted Shaman? No? But look at the results I've had! 100% effective!
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George Aar
Oh, and I meant to add,
What if I was a believer in dowsing and had used a stick to tell me where to place those wells and then got the same results? You think I might be pretty well disposed to completely deluding myself as to how effective "dowsing" is? Yeah, I'd think so too...
(BTW, as an aside, just how the hell is water supposed to pull on a stick anyway? Does that make any sense at all?)
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Wacky Funster
Absolutely!!!
I guess there are all levels of people on this planet...
You're just on your level...
We're on another.
It is what it is.
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